Keir Starmer the future

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taio
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by taio » Fri May 15, 2020 10:42 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:36 pm
Starmer has painstakingly avoided point scoring. He has even openly said at PMQs he is not going to give his opinion but base things on either scientific or the govts own advice/words.

He has added a caveat to most of is points that he understands the challenges the govt face and how difficult a task they have and welcomed the positive stuff

Where the govt have lied or have been vague and ambiguous he has challenged the govt and held them rightfully to account

He has absolutely walked the tightrope between challenging the govt without point scoring and this is why Im interested to hear some real examples why you have an opposite view to this

I can only assume you are talking b*llocks and have no grounding in reality for you opinions but I am happy to hear your thoughts and see the facts / logic you base it on
He was selective and cherry picked from PHE guidance at this week's PMQs.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri May 15, 2020 10:43 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:36 pm
Starmer has painstakingly avoided point scoring. He has even openly said at PMQs he is not going to give his opinion but base things on either scientific or the govts own advice/words.

He has added a caveat to most of is points that he understands the challenges the govt face and how difficult a task they have and welcomed the positive stuff

Where the govt have lied or have been vague and ambiguous he has challenged the govt and held them rightfully to account

He has absolutely walked the tightrope between challenging the govt without point scoring and this is why Im interested to hear some real examples why you have an opposite view to this

I can only assume you are talking b*llocks and have no grounding in reality for you opinions but I am happy to hear your thoughts and see the facts / logic you base it on
He's upset because he's made Boris look useless.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri May 15, 2020 10:47 pm

taio wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:42 pm
He was selective and cherry picked from PHE guidance at this week's PMQs.
He's only got 30 mins, with all the sh*t from this govt its not easy and there is a point to be made. I guess the question is was he dishonest or inaccurate in what he said because you were more concerned last Wednesday on defending Johnsons lie about the govt advice on care homes which turned out to be.....a lie (or a mistake if you really want be his apologist)

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TVC15 » Fri May 15, 2020 10:50 pm

And on the subject of the 100k testing by the end of April when the media and Hancock became obsessed with hitting the number and the date at PMQ, Starmer said that the date and the number were not important to him. He said what was important was the testing strategy and consistently getting the numbers higher.
It would have been very easy to rip into Hancock for changing the language to capacity rather than tests in the week before and then fudge the numbers for the 30th April to hit the 100k.
But Starmer realised that the day would come and go. Don’t think many politicians would have done what he did.
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by taio » Fri May 15, 2020 10:53 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:47 pm
He's only got 30 mins, with all the sh*t from this govt its not easy and there is a point to be made. I guess the question is was he dishonest or inaccurate in what he said because you were more concerned last Wednesday on defending Johnsons lie about the govt advice on care homes which turned out to be.....a lie (or a mistake if you really want be his apologist)
If if I recall correctly I made a single post saying how he should have responded. And now you go on a rant after a single sentence that didn't express a strong view. What a prick.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri May 15, 2020 10:55 pm

taio wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:53 pm
If if I recall correctly I made a single post saying how he should have responded. And now you go on a rant after a single sentence that didn't express a strong view. What a prick.
rant :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

prick :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Game Over :!: :!: :!: :!:

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by taio » Fri May 15, 2020 10:56 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:55 pm
rant :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

prick :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Game Over :!: :!: :!: :!:
Damp squid.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri May 15, 2020 11:42 pm

Holtyclaret wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:27 pm
No they include nandy, Dodds, ashworth and Reeves (the worst).

The rest of your post doesn’t ring particularly true to me, but I appreciate its your view on things like I have mine.
But as I was pointing out it was Raab who directly contradicted Johnson on Monday morning when "explaining / clarifying" what his boss had said, and then within two hours he was retracting it. And there are several similar examples of senior Tories undermining or contradicting Johnson.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by AndrewJB » Sat May 16, 2020 12:05 am

Holtyclaret wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:47 pm
I know exactly what he means.

Easiest job in the world, leader of the opposition whilst the government fire fight a global emergency. Hindsight can make folk appear better at their role and more intelligent than they actually are.

That evil eyed woman wheeled out by labour on question time seems about the level for Starmers new team from what I’ve seen since the start of April.
The circumstances that currently make the job of opposition leader easy include the ineptitude of Johnson, and the coterie of political and intellectual lightweights that surround him.

It was hailed as a political master stroke when Johnson (or was it Cummings?) purged their party of anyone of remote intelligence, but now it’s like the Soviet Army after Stalin killed all the best officers.

The government are so concerned with concealing their many failures, they leave an open goal for Starmer to kick the ball into. They have their forelock tugging apologists like you, but every time they lie, in response to a Starmer question, more of the public will see them as the Keystone Cops government they are.
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by tarkys_ears » Sat May 16, 2020 12:23 am

Just realised you can't spell CommUNisT without the word CUN... lol!!!!!!

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by SammyBoy » Sat May 16, 2020 12:28 am

tarkys_ears wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:23 am
Just realised you can't spell CommUNisT without the word CUN... lol!!!!!!
Game, set and match boys :roll:

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Woodleyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 7:11 am

So it looks like I was correct in my original post,
Keir is the future.Ripping Boris apart and exposing Tory incompetence at the same time.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Siddo » Sat May 16, 2020 7:20 am

tarkys_ears wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:23 am
Just realised you can't spell CommUNisT without the word CUN... lol!!!!!!
I rest my case. My work here is done.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Corky » Sat May 16, 2020 8:30 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:46 pm
I didn't really disagree with anything, just asked you to explain the racism which you didn't.
You've now proceeded to label millions of us as racist which is pretty moronic
Taking your first point; Tory racism and this latest bit of clumsy nonsense trying to discredit Starmer are not connected and never were. You tried to draw some sort of connection so only you can explain that.

With regard to your second point; I have decided that anyone who is a member of the Tory party or who votes for them is a racist based on the demonstrable actions of the Tory leader (Johnson) who they voted into power. If you are not comfortable with that then perhaps you shouldn't have voted for him. People have a right to vote for who they want but those rights have with them responsibilities and consequences. And those people still need to be held accountable for their actions even if it is millions.
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat May 16, 2020 8:40 am

Corky wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:30 am
Taking your first point; Tory racism and this latest bit of clumsy nonsense trying to discredit Starmer are not connected and never were. You tried to draw some sort of connection so only you can explain that.

With regard to your second point; I have decided that anyone who is a member of the Tory party or who votes for them is a racist based on the demonstrable actions of the Tory leader (Johnson) who they voted into power. If you are not comfortable with that then perhaps you shouldn't have voted for him. People have a right to vote for who they want but those rights have with them responsibilities and consequences. And those people still need to be held accountable for their actions even if it is millions.
So using your logic anyone who voted for/supported Labour is an Antisemite?
Glad we've got that all cleared up then.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by fatboy47 » Sat May 16, 2020 8:44 am

tarkys_ears wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:23 am
Just realised you can't spell CommUNisT without the word CUN... lol!!!!!!





And there, ladies and gentlemen, we have it.

It's the age of the brainwashed trog. The lumpen dregs that remain to defend our imbecilic leaders with their union jack boxer shorts and single figure IQs they spring to the defence of their rich ,privileged, silver spooned, ex public school Bullngdon masters.
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by diamondpocket » Sat May 16, 2020 8:52 am

Holtyclaret wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:29 pm
No, I have my opinion based on what I’ve seen as you do. I just don’t overthink things like some.
I'd love to know your opinion on the sudden stop of presenting comparison of death rates with other countries soon after it was confirmed The UK had the highest number? As so well presented by Starmer in PMQs on Weds.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat May 16, 2020 9:04 am

Corky wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:30 am
Taking your first point; Tory racism and this latest bit of clumsy nonsense trying to discredit Starmer are not connected and never were. You tried to draw some sort of connection so only you can explain that.

With regard to your second point; I have decided that anyone who is a member of the Tory party or who votes for them is a racist based on the demonstrable actions of the Tory leader (Johnson) who they voted into power. If you are not comfortable with that then perhaps you shouldn't have voted for him. People have a right to vote for who they want but those rights have with them responsibilities and consequences. And those people still need to be held accountable for their actions even if it is millions.
in your opinion.
Boris might not be PC in his rhetoric, or diplomatic in some situations, but he's certainly not racist. A racist wouldn't have Rishi Sunak as Chancellor, or Priti Patel as Home Secretary. Maybe you believe they are both so stupid that they don't realise they are working for a racist.
When Boris starts campaigning, or secretly endorsing, the hounding of ethnic minorities, or religious groups from the Tory party, come back and try again.
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat May 16, 2020 9:05 am

diamondpocket wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:52 am
I'd love to know your opinion on the sudden stop of presenting comparison of death rates with other countries soon after it was confirmed The UK had the highest number? As so well presented by Starmer in PMQs on Weds.
When every other countries start having more up to date numbers, or we all record deaths the same way then a comparison could be done and make more sense.

As it stands countries across the world are either fudging their numbers, see China, or they're a few weeks behind, see some in the EU, or they don't record every cause of death as Covid if it's present like we are apparently doing but Germany aren't.

It's also been pointed out that it could take a number of years to get an accurate tally because excess deaths numbers are usually about a year behind.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by diamondpocket » Sat May 16, 2020 9:14 am

So, it took the gov't 7 weeks of posting them every day to work that out? What was their reason for posting them initially? What was the benefit? It doesn't seem coincidental they stopped soon after it was reported The UK was the highest? (even as you rightly say it isn't valid info). Why didn't they stop presenting the comparisons sooner? (A question that continues to crop up!)
Seems dodgy to me.
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Zlatan » Sat May 16, 2020 9:17 am

taio wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:56 pm
Damp squid.
Squids usually are damp by the fact they live in water

taio
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by taio » Sat May 16, 2020 9:26 am

Zlatan wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:17 am
Squids usually are damp by the fact they live in water
Yep, that's why DA should've previously said damp squib especially when he had quoted my post which included the correct wording. But no big deal - it's good to educate people.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Corky » Sat May 16, 2020 9:30 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:04 am
in your opinion.
Boris might not be PC in his rhetoric, or diplomatic in some situations, but he's certainly not racist. A racist wouldn't have Rishi Sunak as Chancellor, or Priti Patel as Home Secretary. Maybe you believe they are both so stupid that they don't realise they are working for a racist.
When Boris starts campaigning, or secretly endorsing, the hounding of ethnic minorities, or religious groups from the Tory party, come back and try again.
Why do people feel the need to say it is my opinion. Obviously it is but it is also shared by others.

I see you are making all the obvious infantile schoolboy excuses for the Falstafian buffoon. I commented on the BAME issue earlier but it does not alter the facts that he has referred to people of colour as piccaninnies or that they have watermelon smiles. He is inherently a racist. He has also referred to the working class in a most derogatory manner. But what the hell, he's a laugh so we will ignore the consequences.

Lets say I decide to start a new political party and lets call it the National Socialist Party. I promise to make my country great again and millions flock to its banner.Years down the line..... You may not like it but if you as I suspect voted Tory then you voted for a racist leader. If you are comfortable with that then perhaps your moral compass needs a bit of oiling. But me, I'm afraid and so should we all.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 9:42 am

diamondpocket wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:52 am
I'd love to know your opinion on the sudden stop of presenting comparison of death rates with other countries soon after it was confirmed The UK had the highest number? As so well presented by Starmer in PMQs on Weds.
That slide was always offered with a caveat that the recording of deaths in different countries was done in various ways and hence wasn’t a wholly accurate presentation of the true picture. That had become increasingly the case as things like ‘all settings’ information became available which wasn’t at the outset.

There’s now a whole range (too much?) information and slides available and we’re now blasted with that on the daily.

We’re now in a different stage of the disease and have better information available and the approach has changed to control the virus, which requires different reporting/indicators.

Why? Would you still have them show this slide when more up to date information suggests we’re ‘mid table’.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 9:48 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:05 am
The circumstances that currently make the job of opposition leader easy include the ineptitude of Johnson, and the coterie of political and intellectual lightweights that surround him.

It was hailed as a political master stroke when Johnson (or was it Cummings?) purged their party of anyone of remote intelligence, but now it’s like the Soviet Army after Stalin killed all the best officers.

The government are so concerned with concealing their many failures, they leave an open goal for Starmer to kick the ball into. They have their forelock tugging apologists like you, but every time they lie, in response to a Starmer question, more of the public will see them as the Keystone Cops government they are.
I wish I had a tenth of the intelligence you think you have. Hindsight eh? At least I understand the meaning of the word ‘unprecedented’.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 9:53 am

Woodleyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 7:11 am
So it looks like I was correct in my original post,
Keir is the future.Ripping Boris apart and exposing Tory incompetence at the same time.
The future is ‘ripping Boris apart’ during a global health and economic crisis. Opportunist point scoring I’d call it and to me it makes the Labour Party look weak and desperate.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by jrgbfc » Sat May 16, 2020 10:13 am

Holtyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:53 am
The future is ‘ripping Boris apart’ during a global health and economic crisis. Opportunist point scoring I’d call it and to me it makes the Labour Party look weak and desperate.
So what should Labour be doing exactly? Patting the Tories on the back, praising them for their absolute shambles of a response?

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by fatboy47 » Sat May 16, 2020 10:46 am

Holtyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:53 am
The future is ‘ripping Boris apart’ during a global health and economic crisis. Opportunist point scoring I’d call it and to me it makes the Labour Party look weak and desperate.

I'm pretty certain a Corbyn admnistration would have acted quicker and more decisively to events, as have many governments other than those of the loony right.
And he would , im certain, now be getting ripped to shreds by the squealing red tops and their infantile gullible readers.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 10:49 am

jrgbfc wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:13 am
So what should Labour be doing exactly? Patting the Tories on the back, praising them for their absolute shambles of a response?
No, just act with a little less desperation and a little more decorum. I’d say mixed bag rather (some howlers) than shambles, unprecedented times where you wouldn’t expect a perfect response unless you were thick or talking with hindsight.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 10:51 am

fatboy47 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:46 am
I'm pretty certain a Corbyn admnistration would have acted quicker and more decisively to events, as have many governments other than those of the loony right.
And he would , im certain, now be getting ripped to shreds by the squealing red tops and their infantile gullible readers.
Aren’t opinions funny, I’m not religious but thank god daily that those muppets aren’t in power right now.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by diamondpocket » Sat May 16, 2020 11:07 am

Holtyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:49 am
No, just act with a little less desperation and a little more decorum. I’d say mixed bag rather (some howlers) than shambles, unprecedented times where you wouldn’t expect a perfect response unless you were thick or talking with hindsight.
I fail to see where Starmer seems desperate and hasn't acted in anything other than a polite, respectful way. But maybe you can show us some examples of when.
He is questioning what for many in the public seem to be questioning: PPE, validity of statistics, care home issues, Testing, future plans and clarity of messages, etc.

(Edit: May I add I only see PMQs and things on TV so no idea if social media is being used/manipulated)

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TVC15 » Sat May 16, 2020 11:13 am

Holtyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:49 am
No, just act with a little less desperation and a little more decorum. I’d say mixed bag rather (some howlers) than shambles, unprecedented times where you wouldn’t expect a perfect response unless you were thick or talking with hindsight.
Just send us some examples of what you mean rather than carry on with this hyperbole.
It’s not a difficult ask - you think he’s been out of order, desperate, lacking decorum etc...all those feelings must have come from you watching actual footage of him displaying this.

Did he do what all the media did and hound Hancock about the £100k tests by the 30th April ?
Or did he say in PMQs that he did not think achieving this number by the target date was important despite it looking very unlikely when he was talking about it at PMQs ?

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 11:21 am

diamondpocket wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:07 am
I fail to see where Starmer seems desperate and hasn't acted in anything other than a polite, respectful way. But maybe you can show us some examples of when.
He is questioning what for many in the public seem to be questioning: PPE, validity of statistics, care home issues, Testing, future plans and clarity of messages, etc.

(Edit: May I add I only see PMQs and things on TV so no idea if social media is being used/manipulated)
So you think now is the time to Re-visit occurrences from Weeks/months ago when there is more pressing matters currently at hand? Data/knowledge gained has also moved on a pace and what is known now wasn’t known then. I don’t, I’d rather all focus was on the now. Plenty of time for enquires but for me that’s not now.

So Starmer precedes his attacks with ‘we’ll be supportive where possible but......’ makes it ok and he has clearly advised his shadow cabinet to attack at will. The dross wheeled out by reeves,nandy, ashworth and others is cringeworthy at best and point scoring because they’ve feck all else to do.

Snidey at best, unhelpful and obstructive at worst.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 11:23 am

TVC15 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:13 am
Just send us some examples of what you mean rather than carry on with this hyperbole.
It’s not a difficult ask - you think he’s been out of order, desperate, lacking decorum etc...all those feelings must have come from you watching actual footage of him displaying this.

Did he do what all the media did and hound Hancock about the £100k tests by the 30th April ?
Or did he say in PMQs that he did not think achieving this number by the target date was important despite it looking very unlikely when he was talking about it at PMQs ?
No, on the Saturday evening after that target was ‘achieved’ all he could muster was calling for a clear contact tracing plan. Sadly for him though this had been outlined very clearly over a week prior.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TVC15 » Sat May 16, 2020 11:44 am

Holtyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:23 am
No, on the Saturday evening after that target was ‘achieved’ all he could muster was calling for a clear contact tracing plan. Sadly for him though this had been outlined very clearly over a week prior.
That’s utter rubbish - he was calling for that much sooner.
He said at PMQs that what was needed was a testing strategy (rather than this ridiculous numbers game - those my words not his).
You are correct to put achieved in inverted commas - I’d just say fudged and leave out the commas.

Just post the links - it would be easier than just embarrassing yourself

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by diamondpocket » Sat May 16, 2020 11:54 am

We're on a footy board not a cricket one but well batted anyway. I'm not sure what is now known that wasn't a month or so ago. Maybe some data/statistics reporting but I can see the same practical issues to be the same as they were at the bgeinning.
One of the issues I have with reviewing when this has all died down / at the end of the crisis / when it's appropriate (which could be years off) is most things will be fobbed off or forgotten or manipulated or be shown irrelevant, exactly as you have done, because at the end we will know so much more than at the time when decisions had to be made. Therefore those decisions were mistakes in hindsight but that's OK because we're human and we all make mistakes. Try telling that to the tens of thousands of dead people & families affected. History tells us that the truth when authorities **** up (Hillsborough for example) is covered up and spun around to make the decisions justifiable.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by taio » Sat May 16, 2020 12:04 pm

I struggle to see what Starmer has done wrong. He has far more often than not challenged the government in a fair way while recognising the considerable and inevitable challenges the government faces. I think he was a little disingenuous at PMQs this week but no big deal and that happens in politics often to a much greater degree.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by AndrewJB » Sat May 16, 2020 12:05 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:04 am
in your opinion.
Boris might not be PC in his rhetoric, or diplomatic in some situations, but he's certainly not racist. A racist wouldn't have Rishi Sunak as Chancellor, or Priti Patel as Home Secretary. Maybe you believe they are both so stupid that they don't realise they are working for a racist.
When Boris starts campaigning, or secretly endorsing, the hounding of ethnic minorities, or religious groups from the Tory party, come back and try again.
“Certainly not racist” because he’s hired a few ethnic people? He made racist comments in columns he wrote. Homophobic comments, misogynistic comments, sneering nasty comments about working class people, and of course the “letterboxes and bank robbers” article. If it’s not racism, is it just unfunny jokes? He’s not a racist, but a bully who makes fun of the different person in the room? I’m not sure which is more unpleasant, but which do you think it is? He either knew, or he didn’t know that his column making fun of some Muslim women would lead to a rise in racism against them. If he knew, he’s callous. If he didn’t know, then he’s seriously lacking in judgement. Which do you think?

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by nil_desperandum » Sat May 16, 2020 12:18 pm

I'm interested in this argument that during a time of National crisis MPs of whatever party should simply get behind the PM, and aren't there to scrutinise, question and challenge, and hold the executive to account.
Let's just rewind 80 years. Was it wrong and opportunistic that initially a small number of MPs, (but eventually a majority of them) challenged Chamberlain, Halifax and their well-intentioned but inept team?
Let's suppose that for the sake of National unity during a crisis those who identified failings and weaknesses in the leadership and policy in 1939 and 40 had just kept quiet. How would that have turned out?
The role of opposition MPs, and indeed even those closer to the government is crucial during a crisis of this magnitude.
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 12:32 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:44 am
That’s utter rubbish - he was calling for that much sooner.
He said at PMQs that what was needed was a testing strategy (rather than this ridiculous numbers game - those my words not his).
You are correct to put achieved in inverted commas - I’d just say fudged and leave out the commas.

Just post the links - it would be easier than just embarrassing yourself
I don’t keep a notepad by my sofa or plough through media for references and figures, not the way I’m orientated. I saw and heard the above, he was in usual position by his gate. You check it out if you don’t believe.

And yes I do think it’s a majestic achievement with regard to the way our testing capacity as a country has been increased to what it is now and what it was.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TVC15 » Sat May 16, 2020 12:33 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:18 pm
I'm interested in this argument that during a time of National crisis MPs of whatever party should simply get behind the PM, and aren't there to scrutinise, question and challenge, and hold the executive to account.
Let's just rewind 80 years. Was it wrong and opportunistic that initially a small number of MPs, (but eventually a majority of them) challenged Chamberlain, Halifax and their well-intentioned but inept team?
Let's suppose that for the sake of National unity during a crisis those who identified failings and weaknesses in the leadership and policy in 1939 and 40 had just kept quiet. How would that have turned out?
The role of opposition MPs, and indeed even those closer to the government is crucial during a crisis of this magnitude.
Spot on.
It’s a ridiculous argument.
Even the government have said they welcome scrutiny and challenge from the opposition during the crisis.
The absolute nonsense and hypocrisy of waiting till all this is finished is staggering.
Would people seriously prefer more mistakes and deaths and a review next year or reviews of certain aspects of the strategy now, accepting mistakes have been made and then potentially saving lives in the future ?
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TVC15 » Sat May 16, 2020 12:38 pm

Holtyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:32 pm
I don’t keep a notepad by my sofa or plough through media for references and figures, not the way I’m orientated. I saw and heard the above, he was in usual position by his gate. You check it out if you don’t believe.

And yes I do think it’s a majestic achievement with regard to the way our testing capacity as a country has been increased to what it is now and what it was.
“Majestically“ late and resulted in more deaths than was necessary....if you think that is my or a left wing view check out the Treasury Select Committee chaired by one of your party who concluded that the government has made fundamental mistakes with testing and have now requested the evidence and rationale behind the decision to not follow the strategy of countries like South Korea.

As I said you are embarrassing yourself.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat May 16, 2020 12:44 pm

Quick reminder.

There is no lever that any government has access to that has a sign above it with the words -



"FOR PERFECT RESPONSE TO UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL PANDEMIC PULL HERE"




It just doesn't exist. Repeat it does not exist.



As you were....
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat May 16, 2020 12:45 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:38 pm
“Majestically“ late and resulted in more deaths than was necessary....if you think that is my or a left wing view check out the Treasury Select Committee chaired by one of your party who concluded that the government has made fundamental mistakes with testing and have now requested the evidence and rationale behind the decision to not follow the strategy of countries like South Korea.

As I said you are embarrassing yourself.
Building an industry that didn’t exist weeks prior at such speed, I’d call that some achievement. Midway through the first wave of a new disease that has pretty much taken the world by surprise, with no known treatment/vaccine etc. Don’t you think we’re now in a better position to deal with subsequent waves or future pandemics like this?

Not the best to have to attack this disease from a standing start but that’s what has had to be done.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by Swizzlestick » Sat May 16, 2020 12:45 pm

EDIT -point already made

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sat May 16, 2020 12:48 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:44 pm
Quick reminder.

There is no lever that any government has access to that has a sign above it with the words -



"FOR PERFECT RESPONSE TO UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL PANDEMIC PULL HERE"




It just doesn't exist. Repeat it does not exist.



As you were....
Quick reminder.

Nobody has ever claimed that there is.

As you were.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat May 16, 2020 12:54 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:48 pm
Quick reminder.

Nobody has ever claimed that there is.

As you were.
Hasn't stopped a noisy minority trying.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TVC15 » Sat May 16, 2020 12:59 pm

Holtyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:45 pm
Building an industry that didn’t exist weeks prior at such speed, I’d call that some achievement. Midway through the first wave of a new disease that has pretty much taken the world by surprise, with no known treatment/vaccine etc. Don’t you think we’re now in a better position to deal with subsequent waves or future pandemics like this?

Not the best to have to attack this disease from a standing start but that’s what has had to be done.
Completely ignored the point.
They built the testing capacity too late.
The Chief Medical Officer admitted that the testing capacity should have been built earlier.
They decided to not follow the example of South Korea and other countries. It’s a mistake that cost a lot of lives.

Of course we are in a better place now than we were before. Just like Italy and Spain are now.
Are you saying that the TSC are wrong and it was not a mistake ?
Are you saying it did not cost lives ?
Are you saying they could not have followed the lead of countries like South Korea and built the testing capacity sooner ?

Or are you just saying it’s one of those things and they did their best ?
Last edited by TVC15 on Sat May 16, 2020 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sat May 16, 2020 12:59 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:54 pm
Hasn't stopped a noisy minority trying.
Nobody has ever claimed there is but that hasn't stopped a minority from trying to claim that there is?
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Re: Keir Starmer the future

Post by diamondpocket » Sat May 16, 2020 1:01 pm

Holtyclaret wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:45 pm
Building an industry that didn’t exist weeks prior at such speed, I’d call that some achievement. Midway through the first wave of a new disease that has pretty much taken the world by surprise, with no known treatment/vaccine etc. Don’t you think we’re now in a better position to deal with subsequent waves or future pandemics like this?

Not the best to have to attack this disease from a standing start but that’s what has had to be done.
But this is why you are wrong. It WASN'T a surprise, come on. The gov't have said meetings about this situation had already started in January. The UK was watching Asia being hit with it then Iran & Europe in Italy & Spain. Were they arrogant enough to think it couldn't happen here whilst the number of cases/deaths were low? It may have taken other countries by surprise but The UK shouldn't claim that.

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