Schools

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
BurningBeard
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:31 pm
Been Liked: 184 times
Has Liked: 142 times

Re: Schools

Post by BurningBeard » Sun May 17, 2020 8:23 pm

Blackrod wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:57 pm
She’s worked throughout which is helping others. Why would anyone call her lazy even the ‘usual suspects’ whoever they are.
There have been some terrible mischaracterisations and sweeping generalisations about teachers throughout the thread. They aren't difficult to find.

BigRedrose
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:26 pm
Been Liked: 120 times
Has Liked: 74 times

Re: Schools

Post by BigRedrose » Sun May 17, 2020 8:32 pm

conyoviejo wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:03 pm
I think Eddie is right in what he says. My sons a teacher and I wouldn't want him returning until it's safe to do so.. I would say wait until after the summer break and start again in September,that is if it's safe to do so..
Ok Conyo, I'll ask you the same question I asked earlier. What is likely to have changed by September/Jan 2021? What in your opinion could possibly make it 'safe to do so,' as you and Eddie put it? There sure as hell won't be a vaccine, the same risks will still be there. You can't keep booting the can further down the road.
.

TVC15
Posts: 7900
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3140 times
Has Liked: 575 times

Re: Schools

Post by TVC15 » Sun May 17, 2020 8:33 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 6:09 pm
I wouldn't label teachers as lazy, disinterested scroungers. Their union leaders, on the other hand ...

The union leaders, for one, obviously don't see teachers as key workers. The NHS are key workers, supermarket staff are key workers, postmen and delivery men are key workers; not teachers. In the second round, garden centre workers are less key but are back to work, so are other shop workers, joiners and builders. But not teachers. Teachers' unions see all these people going back to work. many of them for the benefit of others and not necessarily because they want to, and think "Aye aye - that's not for us. Seems like too much of a hard time for our members." and tells them not only to opt out of going back to work, but also to opt out of talking about going back. Risks are for key workers and the brave; teachers, so their union leaders tell us, are neither.

So the teachers, most of whom let's face it have nice houses with gardens and are comfortably off, won't even enter negotiations with the government in when to get back to work. The potentially abused children, the inner-city children, the children with no gardens, the children with no computer, the children whose parents are going dotty with frustration, the children who do not get proper food at home - when do those children get back to school? The unions don't really care. The unions are for the teachers.

If the teachers don't want people to feel that they are dodging the column sitting comfortably at home while their vital work is not being done - then get new union leaders. Resign in droves from the unions that are misrepresenting you; join another union or become non-union for a little while. Let your leaders know that they are not speaking for you.
What a load of sanctimonious ill informed hog sh-it.
These 6 users liked this post: Bordeauxclaret Steve-Harpers-perm ksrclaret Siddo longsidepies Greenmile

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 6557
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 2027 times
Has Liked: 5804 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Schools

Post by evensteadiereddie » Sun May 17, 2020 8:39 pm

One assumes the much trumpeted five tests will have been well and truly met in all areas that are being asked to reopen by then.
They certainly haven't yet and I'll bet they'll not be by the end of the month. Until they are, teachers will do well not to end up like the NHS and care home sacrificial lambs who have had their lives wasted.
This user liked this post: Siddo

conyoviejo
Posts: 4441
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:38 pm
Been Liked: 1801 times
Has Liked: 1135 times
Location: On the high seas chasing Pirates

Re: Schools

Post by conyoviejo » Sun May 17, 2020 8:44 pm

BigRedrose wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:32 pm
Ok Conyo, I'll ask you the same question I asked earlier. What is likely to have changed by September/Jan 2021? What in your opinion could possibly make it 'safe to do so,' as you and Eddie put it? There sure as hell won't be a vaccine, the same risks will still be there. You can't keep booting the can further down the road.
.
BigRed,nothing can make it safe to do so at the moment,it will be a long time before the country gets back to normal living..The only reason I can give you is that we will have a better idea how the new lockdown,five tests and the R value are performing in September after three months of trying it.. I don't think it's worth sending the children back to school just for a month then it's their summer hols and they are off for five/6 weeks again.. Leave them off until the end of summer and then get them back to school if things have eased off..

tiger76
Posts: 9899
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 1589 times
Has Liked: 3151 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Schools

Post by tiger76 » Sun May 17, 2020 8:46 pm

Hartlepool joins Liverpool and says no https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/16/another- ... 12711886/

BurningBeard
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:31 pm
Been Liked: 184 times
Has Liked: 142 times

Re: Schools

Post by BurningBeard » Sun May 17, 2020 8:56 pm

conyoviejo wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:44 pm
BigRed,nothing can make it safe to do so at the moment,it will be a long time before the country gets back to normal living..The only reason I can give you is that we will have a better idea how the new lockdown,five tests and the R value are performing in September after three months of trying it.. I don't think it's worth sending the children back to school just for a month then it's their summer hols and they are off for five/6 weeks again.. Leave them off until the end of summer and then get them back to school if things have eased off..
I would add to that a better understanding to what extent kids transmit the virus. At present this is uncertain. Additionally the govt needs to be more collaborative, and more transparent with its scientific evidence / advice.

I'd love to send my child back to school but I can't as things stand right now, especially given he's reception age. If he was year 6 maybe I'd see things differently.

Claret Till I Die
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:31 am
Been Liked: 504 times
Has Liked: 518 times
Location: Worsthorne

Re: Schools

Post by Claret Till I Die » Sun May 17, 2020 9:16 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:16 pm
Why would you say that a child at home would learn as much as a child being taught by a teacher, unless you thought the teacher wasn't doing any good?
Where did I say that the teacher wasn't doing any good ?

BigRedrose
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:26 pm
Been Liked: 120 times
Has Liked: 74 times

Re: Schools

Post by BigRedrose » Sun May 17, 2020 9:17 pm

BurningBeard wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:56 pm
I would add to that a better understanding to what extent kids transmit the virus. At present this is uncertain. Additionally the govt needs to be more collaborative, and more transparent with its scientific evidence / advice.

I'd love to send my child back to school but I can't as things stand right now, especially given he's reception age. If he was year 6 maybe I'd see things differently.
And if you find out,'to what extent kids transmit the virus;' BB, what then? How is that going the affect your decision? There is plenty of statistical data already out there to make an informed opinion.
The current proposals to have reception and yr 6 pupils in school prior to summer, in reduced class sizes, seem measured and sensible to me.

Steve-Harpers-perm
Posts: 3648
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:52 am
Been Liked: 1188 times
Has Liked: 508 times

Re: Schools

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sun May 17, 2020 9:24 pm

BigRedrose wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:17 pm
And if you find out,'to what extent kids transmit the virus;' BB, what then? How is that going the affect your decision? There is plenty of statistical data already out there to make an informed opinion.
The current proposals to have reception and yr 6 pupils in school prior to summer, in reduced class sizes, seem measured and sensible to me.
Are you really questioning a parents decision not to send their child into school at the minute?
This user liked this post: Siddo

BurningBeard
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:31 pm
Been Liked: 184 times
Has Liked: 142 times

Re: Schools

Post by BurningBeard » Sun May 17, 2020 9:46 pm

BigRedrose wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:17 pm
And if you find out,'to what extent kids transmit the virus;' BB, what then? How is that going the affect your decision? There is plenty of statistical data already out there to make an informed opinion.
The current proposals to have reception and yr 6 pupils in school prior to summer, in reduced class sizes, seem measured and sensible to me.
There are a handful of contradictory studies in relation to how infectious kids are, not 'plenty of statistical data'. Reception, year 1 and year 6. The BMA have said it's too risky to open schools. Eductors have questioned why reception and year 1 given how difficult it will be to manage social distancing and hygiene for those cohorts. Should I trust these people or Gove and Williamson?

If kids are as infectious (or somewhere close) as adults and he was to pick it up, I'd prefer him to not pass it on to anyone else, including teachers and particularly grandparents if family visits are relaxed in the near future. We've been told to keep R down and act in a responsible way.

It's not an easy choice to make I can assure you.

BigRedrose
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:26 pm
Been Liked: 120 times
Has Liked: 74 times

Re: Schools

Post by BigRedrose » Sun May 17, 2020 9:46 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:39 pm
One assumes the much trumpeted five tests will have been well and truly met in all areas that are being asked to reopen by then.
They certainly haven't yet and I'll bet they'll not be by the end of the month. Until they are, teachers will do well not to end up like the NHS and care home sacrificial lambs who have had their lives wasted.
Eddie, If schools adopt sensible policies of distancing and operate in small group teaching situations, as has been proposed, why would you expect there to be unnecessary deaths of teachers? The situation in hospitals and care homes is completely different. Even if all the five tests have been well and truly met as you put it, there will always be an element of risk until we have mass vaccination. Should we keep kids off until then?

NewClaret
Posts: 2134
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
Been Liked: 384 times
Has Liked: 339 times

Re: Schools

Post by NewClaret » Sun May 17, 2020 9:50 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:46 pm
Hartlepool joins Liverpool and says no https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/16/another- ... 12711886/
Hartlepool and Liverpool. Nice to see that this situation is not being politicised.
This user liked this post: Burnley Ace

Dressinggown
Posts: 729
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:24 pm
Been Liked: 489 times
Has Liked: 73 times
Location: Padiham

Re: Schools

Post by Dressinggown » Sun May 17, 2020 9:58 pm

The schools and authorities are following guidance provided. I couldn't give a crap about political bias. The situation is as bad as it gets.

tiger76
Posts: 9899
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 1589 times
Has Liked: 3151 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Schools

Post by tiger76 » Sun May 17, 2020 10:09 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:50 pm
Hartlepool and Liverpool. Nice to see that this situation is not being politicised.
I think you'll find Hartlepool is under NOC just now,there is an assortment of independents alongside the major parties,after various brexit related shenanigans.

So on this occasion your political point-scoring has proved fruitless.

claret2018
Posts: 545
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:49 pm
Been Liked: 221 times
Has Liked: 6 times

Re: Schools

Post by claret2018 » Sun May 17, 2020 10:12 pm

I would like my kids to go back to school, but we are in the middle of a global pandemic in the country with the worst death rate in Europe, so it’s not looking likely for a while is it

dsr
Posts: 11176
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 3260 times
Has Liked: 1374 times

Re: Schools

Post by dsr » Sun May 17, 2020 10:30 pm

Claret Till I Die wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 11:53 am
Packs have been sent out each week for the parents to teach their own little darlings so I don't see what they would've learnt in school that they can't have at home.
That's the bit that implies teachers aren't doing any good, CTID. If children are learning nothing in school that they wouldn't learn at home with a computer pack, then what's the point of teachers? I have always believed (and have practical experience of) that being taught by a good teacher, or even a poor teacher as it happens, is a more effective learning experience than internet teaching. I'm just surprised that you believe they can learn as much at home as they do at school.

NewClaret
Posts: 2134
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
Been Liked: 384 times
Has Liked: 339 times

Re: Schools

Post by NewClaret » Sun May 17, 2020 11:06 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:09 pm
I think you'll find Hartlepool is under NOC just now,there is an assortment of independents alongside the major parties,after various brexit related shenanigans.

So on this occasion your political point-scoring has proved fruitless.
Well it’s been a Labour held constituency for as long as I can remember, although heard their MP had been suspended for sexual harassment so not sure if that’s changed.

Council may not be under full Labour control, given their abandonment of Brexit voters, but it certainly won’t be under Tory control. Will be surprised if they had a single councillor.

What I’m saying is that it’s no shock to me that it’s the Labour areas undermining the Government’s efforts to reopen schools. I’d argue it is they who are partaking in the political point scoring.

dsr
Posts: 11176
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 3260 times
Has Liked: 1374 times

Re: Schools

Post by dsr » Sun May 17, 2020 11:13 pm

Labour = 10
Independent Union = 6
Conservative = 4
Socialist Labour = 4
Putting Seaton First = 3
Independent = 3
Veterans and People's Party = 1
For Britain Movement = 1

Make of that what you will.

NewClaret
Posts: 2134
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
Been Liked: 384 times
Has Liked: 339 times

Re: Schools

Post by NewClaret » Sun May 17, 2020 11:45 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 11:13 pm
Labour = 10
Independent Union = 6
Conservative = 4
Socialist Labour = 4
Putting Seaton First = 3
Independent = 3
Veterans and People's Party = 1
For Britain Movement = 1

Make of that what you will.
Thanks dsr. Was wrong on the story councillors then :o

What’s the Socialist Labour Party?

MACCA
Posts: 12938
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:10 am
Been Liked: 3368 times

Re: Schools

Post by MACCA » Mon May 18, 2020 7:26 am

ClaretMov wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:18 pm
PR!CK
Extremely constructive, but strangely cannot argue with any of the points.

You can tell a few of the teachers on here with their responses and discussion, just crossing my fingers you aren't one of them, as you'll probably be one of them that's been dragging their reputation down in in recent times...

fatboy47
Posts: 2005
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:58 am
Been Liked: 1194 times
Has Liked: 1264 times
Location: Isles of Scilly

Re: Schools

Post by fatboy47 » Mon May 18, 2020 7:48 am

I live in a community seperated from the mainland by 30 odd miles of ocean.

There hasnt been a single case of cv in the entire island group.

The transport system to and from the mainland is effectively down to one half full 7 seater plane daily....anyone using it is subject to stringent vetting.

And..you guessed it.....still far too dangerous and dodgy for the majority of teachers to be available for a start in two weeks time.

My arse.

Siddo
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:48 am
Been Liked: 324 times
Has Liked: 1810 times

Re: Schools

Post by Siddo » Mon May 18, 2020 7:50 am

NewClaret wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 11:45 pm
Thanks dsr. Was wrong on the story councillors then :o

What’s the Socialist Labour Party?
Not having a go at you, but you weren't wrong. You assumed you knew the situation, didn't check or do any research, and posted what you thought was correct.
And that I believe, is the problem with social media and a lot of discussion about the pandemic.
I see this all the time when people think they know employment law by using what they believe to be common sense and thinking they are probably right. But the actual resolution can be miles away from their supposition and they find that difficult to accept.

Grumps
Posts: 2736
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:15 am
Been Liked: 603 times
Has Liked: 230 times

Re: Schools

Post by Grumps » Mon May 18, 2020 7:56 am

claret2018 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:12 pm
I would like my kids to go back to school, but we are in the middle of a global pandemic in the country with the worst death rate in Europe, so it’s not looking likely for a while is it
Kids have been at school throughout this pandemic, from families who have no choice but to go to work, and no choice but to send their kids to school
The class sizes have been about what they would be in june
Schools already have the procedures in place
I know families of teachers and medical professionals who have no problem sending children to school

What the point of sending the youngest children to school for a month is, is another matter. Those who are changing schools, choosing subjects etc would be totally understandable.

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 6557
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 2027 times
Has Liked: 5804 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Schools

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon May 18, 2020 8:02 am

Absolutely. It's a free child-minding service to enable the government to get more people back to work and if a few teachers happen to become ill or even die, well we can always clap for them...

taio
Posts: 6055
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 1771 times
Has Liked: 146 times

Re: Schools

Post by taio » Mon May 18, 2020 8:15 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:02 am
Absolutely. It's a free child-minding service to enable the government to get more people back to work and if a few teachers happen to become ill or even die, well we can always clap for them...
Obviously an important factor - we need to start on a recovery process for the economy and society sooner rather than later if the risk is low. But it's not the only factor - if a free child minding service was the only reason, why is the intention to have some form of return for year 10 and 12 students?

Claret Till I Die
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:31 am
Been Liked: 504 times
Has Liked: 518 times
Location: Worsthorne

Re: Schools

Post by Claret Till I Die » Mon May 18, 2020 8:16 am

dsr wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:30 pm
That's the bit that implies teachers aren't doing any good, CTID. If children are learning nothing in school that they wouldn't learn at home with a computer pack, then what's the point of teachers? I have always believed (and have practical experience of) that being taught by a good teacher, or even a poor teacher as it happens, is a more effective learning experience than internet teaching. I'm just surprised that you believe they can learn as much at home as they do at school.
Teachers send out the packs and are available to explain, via email and even telephone the concept to the parent(s) if they are unable to understand. Not once have I implied that teachers aren't required.

Steve-Harpers-perm
Posts: 3648
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:52 am
Been Liked: 1188 times
Has Liked: 508 times

Re: Schools

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Mon May 18, 2020 8:18 am

Grumps wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:56 am
Kids have been at school throughout this pandemic, from families who have no choice but to go to work, and no choice but to send their kids to school
The class sizes have been about what they would be in june
Schools already have the procedures in place
I know families of teachers and medical professionals who have no problem sending children to school

What the point of sending the youngest children to school for a month is, is another matter. Those who are changing schools, choosing subjects etc would be totally understandable.
‘The class sizes have been about would they would be in June’. Absolutely not true.

‘Schools already have procedures in place’. They have them in place for the key worker and vulnerable children now they are planning for the safe return of an extra three year groups.

How many teachers and medical professionals have you asked about sending their kids back as a matter of interest?

taio
Posts: 6055
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 1771 times
Has Liked: 146 times

Re: Schools

Post by taio » Mon May 18, 2020 8:22 am

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:18 am
‘The class sizes have been about would they would be in June’. Absolutely not true.

‘Schools already have procedures in place’. They have them in place for the key worker and vulnerable children now they are planning for the safe return of an extra three year groups.

How many teachers and medical professionals have you asked about sending their kids back as a matter of interest?
I know loads of health and care workers whose children have remained at school.

Top Claret
Posts: 2976
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:50 am
Been Liked: 678 times
Has Liked: 616 times

Re: Schools

Post by Top Claret » Mon May 18, 2020 8:31 am

conyoviejo wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:00 pm
Don't you fret T.C. ,he's looking forward to getting back to teaching and can't wait to get started again.. 8-)
Good man

Grumps
Posts: 2736
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:15 am
Been Liked: 603 times
Has Liked: 230 times

Re: Schools

Post by Grumps » Mon May 18, 2020 8:33 am

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:18 am
‘The class sizes have been about would they would be in June’. Absolutely not true.

‘Schools already have procedures in place’. They have them in place for the key worker and vulnerable children now they are planning for the safe return of an extra three year groups.

How many teachers and medical professionals have you asked about sending their kids back as a matter of interest?
I know schools where presently the size is 12 - 15, which is the proposed size for june

Why does it matter for the exact number of people I've asked? For your information, a rough figure is 5 teachers and 7 medical professionals

aggi
Posts: 6137
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 1445 times

Re: Schools

Post by aggi » Mon May 18, 2020 10:55 am

dsr wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 6:09 pm
I wouldn't label teachers as lazy, disinterested scroungers. Their union leaders, on the other hand ...

The union leaders, for one, obviously don't see teachers as key workers. The NHS are key workers, supermarket staff are key workers, postmen and delivery men are key workers; not teachers. In the second round, garden centre workers are less key but are back to work, so are other shop workers, joiners and builders. But not teachers. Teachers' unions see all these people going back to work. many of them for the benefit of others and not necessarily because they want to, and think "Aye aye - that's not for us. Seems like too much of a hard time for our members." and tells them not only to opt out of going back to work, but also to opt out of talking about going back. Risks are for key workers and the brave; teachers, so their union leaders tell us, are neither.

So the teachers, most of whom let's face it have nice houses with gardens and are comfortably off, won't even enter negotiations with the government in when to get back to work. The potentially abused children, the inner-city children, the children with no gardens, the children with no computer, the children whose parents are going dotty with frustration, the children who do not get proper food at home - when do those children get back to school? The unions don't really care. The unions are for the teachers.

If the teachers don't want people to feel that they are dodging the column sitting comfortably at home while their vital work is not being done - then get new union leaders. Resign in droves from the unions that are misrepresenting you; join another union or become non-union for a little while. Let your leaders know that they are not speaking for you.
Obviously this theory breaks down a bit given that the majority of teachers are still going in to school to teach kids (rather than staying at home in their nice houses with gardens that dsr has dreamt up).

The issue is the scaling up. The obvious thing to do would have been to work out guidelines, discuss with the unions, headteachers, parents, etc along with a test and trace solution.

What they've actually gone with is make the announcement with no plans in order to pressure the schools into opening and hope that people like MACCA and yourself, who let's be honest have no idea about teaching or teachers, will keep up that pressure.
These 5 users liked this post: evensteadiereddie BurningBeard tiger76 JohnDearyMe Greenmile

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 6557
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 2027 times
Has Liked: 5804 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Schools

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon May 18, 2020 11:04 am

Loving today's news that the much lauded Heath and Safety Executive spot checks brought in by the government to police safe practice in workplaces will not now take place due to yup, you guessed it, lack of safety of the staff due to carry them out. :lol:

Add in the fact that the HSE budget was halved by the Tories and, then as a panic measure, a measly and inadequate £14 million was suddenly reinstated, you can't really understand anybody not trusting the government with their or their loved ones' health at the moment, can you ?
Who wouldn't ?

BigRedrose
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:26 pm
Been Liked: 120 times
Has Liked: 74 times

Re: Schools

Post by BigRedrose » Mon May 18, 2020 11:21 am

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:24 pm
Are you really questioning a parents decision not to send their child into school at the minute?
Yes.
Present the data for me to think otherwise. Now I'll ask you a question, the same question I've asked 3 times that still hasn't been answered. When,in your opinion, would YOU consider it safe for a child to take part in a phased, carefully managed return to school, where correct distancing measures are in place?Would thst be after after mass vaccination? September, January 2021, when?

dsr
Posts: 11176
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 3260 times
Has Liked: 1374 times

Re: Schools

Post by dsr » Mon May 18, 2020 12:28 pm

aggi wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:55 am
Obviously this theory breaks down a bit given that the majority of teachers are still going in to school to teach kids (rather than staying at home in their nice houses with gardens that dsr has dreamt up).

The issue is the scaling up. The obvious thing to do would have been to work out guidelines, discuss with the unions, headteachers, parents, etc along with a test and trace solution.

What they've actually gone with is make the announcement with no plans in order to pressure the schools into opening and hope that people like MACCA and yourself, who let's be honest have no idea about teaching or teachers, will keep up that pressure.
My theory is that teachers are hard workers who see their job is key and want to work; but the unions are opposed to that and want to stop teachers from working. I really don't see how teachers going to school to teach kids breaks that theory.

I think perhaps a lot of people have seen a post about teaching, have seen that there is criticism, and have decided that it must be unfair because teachers are wonderful. I have very carefully steered away from any criticism at all of teachers, except perhaps in their choice of union bosses. It's the unions that I am criticising.

Steve-Harpers-perm
Posts: 3648
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:52 am
Been Liked: 1188 times
Has Liked: 508 times

Re: Schools

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Mon May 18, 2020 12:35 pm

BigRedrose wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:21 am
Yes.
Present the data for me to think otherwise. Now I'll ask you a question, the same question I've asked 3 times that still hasn't been answered. When,in your opinion, would YOU consider it safe for a child to take part in a phased, carefully managed return to school, where correct distancing measures are in place?Would thst be after after mass vaccination? September, January 2021, when?
That is the problem in most schools that correct safe distancing measure won’t be achievable. The maximum number of 15 per class has just been plucked out of thin air it seems. With scientists still not fully understanding the complexities of this virus and many conflicting studies I’d never criticise another parent for not sending their own children back on 1st June from the selected year groups. The whole thing has been planned backwards it would have been more sensible for schools to work with the D of E to work out the number of children in with safe distancing and then decide on which year groups.

NottsClaret
Posts: 2382
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 1931 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Schools

Post by NottsClaret » Mon May 18, 2020 12:35 pm

BigRedrose wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:21 am
When,in your opinion, would YOU consider it safe for a child to take part in a phased, carefully managed return to school, where correct distancing measures are in place?Would thst be after after mass vaccination? September, January 2021, when?
This is a relevant question, and not just for schools. Incidentally, I wouldn't question anyone's decision on when to send their kids back. Mine will be going back on June 1st but totally understand other views.

But everyone will be going back eventually so it's reasonable to ask how you'll be making that decision. Up to now, every answer has been 'when the government says it's safe', whether that's the return of sport, work, holidays or education. But now the government is saying it's safe, some of us aren't ready.

So if you're not sending yours back to school until you think it's safe, what are you basing that on? Is there a level of infection you'll be ok with and how are you getting that information?

claretonthecoast1882
Posts: 3375
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm
Been Liked: 1557 times
Has Liked: 51 times

Re: Schools

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:37 pm

Is there really any point schools rushing back so close to the summer holidays ?

Why not just wait til after this holiday and see where we are as we approach September

ksrclaret
Posts: 3090
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:56 am
Been Liked: 1060 times
Has Liked: 228 times

Re: Schools

Post by ksrclaret » Mon May 18, 2020 12:38 pm

dsr wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:28 pm
My theory is that teachers are hard workers who see their job is key and want to work; but the unions are opposed to that and want to stop teachers from working. I really don't see how teachers going to school to teach kids breaks that theory.

I think perhaps a lot of people have seen a post about teaching, have seen that there is criticism, and have decided that it must be unfair because teachers are wonderful. I have very carefully steered away from any criticism at all of teachers, except perhaps in their choice of union bosses. It's the unions that I am criticising.
I think the point being made is that you have very little idea about teaching or teaching unions, so your criticism is being shown up for the misinformed nonsense it is. As usual, it contains sweeping generalisations that just make a mockery of any valid point you may have.
This user liked this post: Bordeauxclaret

MACCA
Posts: 12938
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:10 am
Been Liked: 3368 times

Re: Schools

Post by MACCA » Mon May 18, 2020 12:38 pm

aggi wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:55 am
What they've actually gone with is make the announcement with no plans in order to pressure the schools into opening and hope that people like MACCA and yourself, who let's be honest have no idea about teaching or teachers, will keep up that pressure.
In true Les Dennis style, if that's right I'll give you the money myself...

I know a setting or 3 that's allowed to open up and take in upto a dozen 0-5 year olds, ( in 1 case full capacity) they're getting on with the job in hand now.
A couple have even been doing it for the past 6 weeks!

Now put that to schools regards 4-6 year olds and 11 year olds, where there's far more space, far more staff and it's not safe for the staff or children to work.

.NHS staff are ok to work 12 hour shifts on the frontline, put theirs and their family health at risk, and youd be more than happy for them to save your life or those already infected, but yet teachers arent willing to look after and teach children "just in case"


Thank goodness our NHS and emergency service staff dont have a teachers mindset or nothing would get done as itd be too unsafe or not fair.

Swizzlestick
Posts: 906
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:40 pm
Been Liked: 336 times
Has Liked: 228 times

Re: Schools

Post by Swizzlestick » Mon May 18, 2020 12:38 pm

Because they want to get people back to work.

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 6557
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 2027 times
Has Liked: 5804 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Schools

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon May 18, 2020 12:43 pm

Teachers want to work in conditions that are not likely to infect them, their families or other families of the kids in school. If those conditions cannot be met, it would be foolish to take a risk. The unions are not there to stop people working, they are to prevent the kind of needless deaths we've seen already in the NHS and care home sectors.
It's a pity this government is so weak that teaching staff and support unions have been put in this position.

Steve-Harpers-perm
Posts: 3648
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:52 am
Been Liked: 1188 times
Has Liked: 508 times

Re: Schools

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Mon May 18, 2020 12:48 pm

MACCA wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:38 pm
In true Les Dennis style, if that's right I'll give you the money myself...

I know a setting or 3 that's allowed to open up and take in upto a dozen 0-5 year olds, ( in 1 case full capacity) they're getting on with the job in hand now.
A couple have even been doing it for the past 6 weeks!

Now put that to schools regards 4-6 year olds and 11 year olds, where there's far more space, far more staff and it's not safe for the staff or children to work.

.NHS staff are ok to work 12 hour shifts on the frontline, put theirs and their family health at risk, and youd be more than happy for them to save your life or those already infected, but yet teachers arent willing to look after and teach children "just in case"


Thank goodness our NHS and emergency service staff dont have a teachers mindset or nothing would get done as itd be too unsafe or not fair.
There you go again with your usual sweeping generalisation this time about another profession.

Is there anything you aren’t an expert on?

FactualFrank
Posts: 23221
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:46 am
Been Liked: 6273 times
Has Liked: 10605 times
Location: Leeds

Re: Schools

Post by FactualFrank » Mon May 18, 2020 12:51 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:35 pm
So if you're not sending yours back to school until you think it's safe, what are you basing that on? Is there a level of infection you'll be ok with and how are you getting that information?
Surely it's several variables not just one thing. Although I'm not a parent, gut-instinct must also play it's part, based on all the information parents will have taken in. Along with the area you're in, how that school has been since lockdown with children who have still gone, what the government are saying, what the scientists are saying, what the R is in your area... I don't believe there is one single thing that at this moment in time can be used as a decision to why they are or aren't sending their children on June 1st. It's for each parent to take the information onboard and decide for themselves.
This user liked this post: BurningBeard

TVC15
Posts: 7900
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3140 times
Has Liked: 575 times

Re: Schools

Post by TVC15 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:58 pm

I am not making sweeping generalisations like some and I was a school governor for more than 15 years so I do have some knowledge about teaching and education.

I have got to say I don’t understand the rationale for sending back the very young primary school children - they tend to need more teaching support, will have less of an understanding of social distancing and washing hands than others etc....but there may be some rationale around losing out on their education needs quicker or more than other ages that I am not aware of.

As for other ages I don’t see why we should not be allowing them to return on a phased / gradual and safe basis. I’m not surprised the communication and collaboration on this has not been great and unfortunately that has caused the conflict between unions and the government. It does not sound insurmountable though and we should be doing what we can to get schools back. I’d also be looking at whether we can have some children / teachers in over the summer to try and close some of the learning gaps that will have emerged.
This user liked this post: BurningBeard

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 6557
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 2027 times
Has Liked: 5804 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Schools

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon May 18, 2020 1:02 pm

"Thank goodness our NHS and emergency service staff dont have a teachers mindset or nothing would get done as itd be too unsafe or not fair."

Probably the most stupid comment made on this board for a long, long time.

Do NHS and emergency staff still wear PPE ? Of course they do. Want to know why, Macca ? Go on, have a guess !

Well done - because there is a risk of infection and well over a hundred of their colleagues have been killed by not having PPE provided early enough.

The risks facing NHS and care-workers seem to have been eliminated somewhat because of tragic lessons learned but you seriously expect teachers to go to work in conditions where there is a heightened risk of infection ?

Would you ? Would you **** !

You've got a grudge against teachers, fair enough, but for God's sake, rein it in a little and use some commonsense.
Last edited by evensteadiereddie on Mon May 18, 2020 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

martin_p
Posts: 7572
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 2465 times
Has Liked: 520 times

Re: Schools

Post by martin_p » Mon May 18, 2020 1:03 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 6:09 pm
I wouldn't label teachers as lazy, disinterested scroungers. Their union leaders, on the other hand ...

The union leaders, for one, obviously don't see teachers as key workers. The NHS are key workers, supermarket staff are key workers, postmen and delivery men are key workers; not teachers. In the second round, garden centre workers are less key but are back to work, so are other shop workers, joiners and builders. But not teachers. Teachers' unions see all these people going back to work. many of them for the benefit of others and not necessarily because they want to, and think "Aye aye - that's not for us. Seems like too much of a hard time for our members." and tells them not only to opt out of going back to work, but also to opt out of talking about going back. Risks are for key workers and the brave; teachers, so their union leaders tell us, are neither.

So the teachers, most of whom let's face it have nice houses with gardens and are comfortably off, won't even enter negotiations with the government in when to get back to work. The potentially abused children, the inner-city children, the children with no gardens, the children with no computer, the children whose parents are going dotty with frustration, the children who do not get proper food at home - when do those children get back to school? The unions don't really care. The unions are for the teachers.

If the teachers don't want people to feel that they are dodging the column sitting comfortably at home while their vital work is not being done - then get new union leaders. Resign in droves from the unions that are misrepresenting you; join another union or become non-union for a little while. Let your leaders know that they are not speaking for you.
The king of ill-informed ******** has really out done himself this time. I know a number of teachers and this couldn’t be further from the truth.

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 6557
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 2027 times
Has Liked: 5804 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Schools

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon May 18, 2020 1:09 pm

Christ, dsr, how much envy and resentment can you cram into four paragraphs ! :lol:

BurningBeard
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:31 pm
Been Liked: 184 times
Has Liked: 142 times

Re: Schools

Post by BurningBeard » Mon May 18, 2020 1:18 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:35 pm
This is a relevant question, and not just for schools. Incidentally, I wouldn't question anyone's decision on when to send their kids back. Mine will be going back on June 1st but totally understand other views.

But everyone will be going back eventually so it's reasonable to ask how you'll be making that decision. Up to now, every answer has been 'when the government says it's safe', whether that's the return of sport, work, holidays or education. But now the government is saying it's safe, some of us aren't ready.

So if you're not sending yours back to school until you think it's safe, what are you basing that on? Is there a level of infection you'll be ok with and how are you getting that information?
Hi Notts. Thank you for your empathetic view and equally I support your decision to do what you think is best for your kids. I do wonder where some people get off on passing judgement on how other people bring up their kids, especially in such trying times. I also wonder how they'd react to being on the other end of it from a perfect stranger. Out of interest, can I ask what year group(s) your kids are?

I've tried to address your questions in various posts further up the thread.

Unfortunately the governement hasn't made any attempt to bring anyone with them on this unlike other coutries like Denmark. If there's clear scientific advice / evidence on safety relevant to our country then treat us like adults and publish it so we can read it ourselves. What have they got to hide here? If it's so safe then make the return compulsory and fine me if I don't send my child back.

Essentialy, at the moment I'm being asked to take a leap of faith (by people who, amongst other things, said the risk to care homes was low) and put a reception age child (and everyone who comes into contact with them) in harms way for the last 6 weeks of the school year in the area of the country with the highest R - thought to be at/above 1 in pockets not too far from me. I appreciate that there are already kids in school, but more kids means more risk given this is a highly communicable illness. It's not just about classrooms but communal areas.

Additionally the school hasn't yet provided specific advice on what to expect if/when they go back but I understand this is impending.

arise_sir_charge
Posts: 1013
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:36 am
Been Liked: 515 times
Has Liked: 7 times

Re: Schools

Post by arise_sir_charge » Mon May 18, 2020 1:25 pm

The subject of 'lazy' teachers is one that infuriates me.

This opinion tends to be offered by people have have no experience of teaching other than the fact they sat in a class room for period between the ages of 4 and maybe 22 if they went to University.

People see 9am to 3.30pm and the holidays but have absolutely zero understanding of everything that goes on around it. It's anything but a 9-3 job

My wife is a teacher, she too has been working throughout lock down producing online content, hosting online sessions, supporting children that ask for it, chasing the parents of those that don't seem to be taking part and planning for the eventual return to school, whilst home schooling our own children. She's also bee rota'd to work in school throughout for key workers child care.

Also, as it happens, I know a lot of teachers and I am not aware of any that are refusing to go back to work.

Post Reply