Dominic Cummings

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jackmiggins
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by jackmiggins » Tue May 26, 2020 12:46 pm

Mattster wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:49 am
The 60 mile round trip to Barnard Castle to "test his eyesight" which he felt was potentially unsafe yet decided it was appropriate to take his wife and son in the car? That's some real safety concern for his son...

That journey just so happened to be on his wife's birthday but I'm sure that's just a coincidence...

By travelling to Durham his child and wife ended up a hospital in the North East with an illness they had contracted in London. It was exactly for situations like that that people were told to "stay home".
But the test in hospital for his son was negative. Extremely suspicious that the chief aide to the PM and his wife have never been tested! Absolutely no proof that any of them had Covid.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Tall Paul » Tue May 26, 2020 12:53 pm

Has anyone posted the latest government/PM approval ratings yet?

Ringo?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Spijed » Tue May 26, 2020 1:08 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 12:53 pm
Has anyone posted the latest government/PM approval ratings yet?

Ringo?
Latest poll - 59% of public think he should resign (YOUGOV)

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Rileybobs » Tue May 26, 2020 1:10 pm

Damo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:40 am
that's what the real issue is here
Really? You don’t think the fact that the government are lying to us, which you have accepted yourself, is the real issue? It seems that you’re perfectly happy being lied to by our government, particularly when it winds up the ‘lefties’, but don’t tar the rest of the population with your ridiculously low standards.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Erasmus » Tue May 26, 2020 1:15 pm

I would say that this isn't just another minor incident of a political figure not telling the truth. Quite rightly, the government's strategy has been to call on all of us to work collectively to get us through the crisis, sharing the burden in equal measure. Cummings's conduct and more especially the puerile defence of Johnson, and Gove in particular, has a terribly destructive impact on maintaining that mood of collectivity in the country. This and the palpable dishonesty of their defence is such a shame. Much better to have got rid of the bloke to show that we really are all equal in our determination and sacrifice.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 1:55 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:24 am
Wayback Machine works by taking 'crawling' the web and taking periodic snapshots of websites, it 'scrapes' the data off. It's similar to how Google 'reads' every website so then it can offer you results when you search for a specific term, it knows where those words are. If you look at the users online now at the bottom you'll see there a Google bot doing that right now so If you searched my words here you'd be given UTC as a result.

There's not really any way of knowing what was written when, unless you want to tell people, news often sites do with 'posted on', 'updated on' etc.
But of course you can change your site and don't have to tell anyone.
For example Ticketmaster quietly changed it's refund policy during Covid to remove the obligation to refund customers for postponed events. It's via Wayback and other services were able to call them out.

For twitter it's a bit different as it's using a very custom platform, not just simple HTML text for example. I think there are some archive services but they are not comprehensive. Even then it requires people to do the leg work so deleting tweet as somewhat effective.
Thanks, Combat (and keep recording, "google bot"). So, does wayback m/c capture images from Twitter or does it not record Twitter, so it won't have a record of what someone posted sometime in the past if they've now deleted that post? or, similarly, edited and overwritten their original "tweet" with a revised post?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue May 26, 2020 1:58 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:34 am
Yes i'm well aware it's a devolved power as i reside in Glasgow,Mr Ross is an MP though not an MSP,and as part of the government regulating these rules he couldn't in good faith expect his constituents to abide to them if senior government aides aren't doing so.

That seems to me a perfectly valid reason for resigning it's a point of principle or maybe you'd prefer our elected officials(note the word elected) to have no morals at all.
His constituents aren’t being asked or expected to abide by them. They abide by the regulations set by the Scottish government so it’s not a valid reason as he’s set out in his letter, unless what you’re saying is his constituents don’t understand the devolution elect but I would imagine they do.

2 days before he drove back to London he drove to Barnard Castle a journey that wasnt essential - treat him the same way everyone else would be. Should we be getting the police to check APNR systems and writing to all registered keepers asking why there car was being used?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 2:00 pm

jackmiggins wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 12:46 pm
But the test in hospital for his son was negative. Extremely suspicious that the chief aide to the PM and his wife have never been tested! Absolutely no proof that any of them had Covid.
I think you are reading too much into DC and Mrs DC not being tested. So far as we know, neither of them presented for medical treatment and at that time you could only get a test if you were a hospital patient - or working in hospital.

Of course, at some stage we can imagine that everyone who's on the "key worker" list that works in 10 Downing Street will be tested either for anti-bodies or, if they have symptoms, a "covid-19 infected now" test.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Stayingup » Tue May 26, 2020 2:00 pm

Cleary not stuck to the rules, just like Stephen Kinnock didn't. But. Yesterday in the Lake District National Park the car parks were open and there were many walkers, a lot in groups. Striding Edge was well used. I dont believe that all these people lived there.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Tall Paul » Tue May 26, 2020 2:02 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:55 pm
Thanks, Combat (and keep recording, "google bot"). So, does wayback m/c capture images from Twitter or does it not record Twitter, so it won't have a record of what someone posted sometime in the past if they've now deleted that post? or, similarly, edited and overwritten their original "tweet" with a revised post?
Tweets can't be edited, only deleted.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 2:03 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:55 pm
Thanks, Combat (and keep recording, "google bot"). So, does wayback m/c capture images from Twitter or does it not record Twitter, so it won't have a record of what someone posted sometime in the past if they've now deleted that post? or, similarly, edited and overwritten their original "tweet" with a revised post?
I think Twitter relies on people screenshotting and saving other peoples tweets so if they delete them then they can be still held to account around their previous words.

I think quite a few prominent Tory brexiteers including JRM deleted lots of tweets because what they were saying in 2015, 2016 and 2017 about Brexit was completely contradicted by what they have been saying the last couple of years.

The public and journalists have got a lot more media savvy to this nowadays and because people in power have become so comfortable with lying and rewriting history I think there are large groups of people who make it their job to save and archive peoples tweets so they dont get away with this kind of behaviour anymore

Have you any thoughts on Cummings changing his blog and then lying about it in his statement?
Last edited by Devils_Advocate on Tue May 26, 2020 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paul Waine
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 2:04 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:02 pm
Tweets can't be edited, only deleted.
Thank you, Tall Paul. I know I can learn about twitter through this mb.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by AlargeClaret » Tue May 26, 2020 2:11 pm

Good on the MP for resigning his ministerial role ,he would have got awful stick “ up there” if he’d backed Cummings ,though a junior minister resigning in the Scotland office is akin to a program seller at Burnley resigning his post to go back to working in the club shop.
I was hoping Cummings would resign simply to stop the faux social media rage and indignation rom the usual quarters .( he’s been a bellend not a murderer) He’s on very thin ice and I do believe the Guardian et al will yet serve their bogeymans head up on a silver platter sooner or later .

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by TVC15 » Tue May 26, 2020 2:16 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:00 pm
I think you are reading too much into DC and Mrs DC not being tested. So far as we know, neither of them presented for medical treatment and at that time you could only get a test if you were a hospital patient - or working in hospital.

Of course, at some stage we can imagine that everyone who's on the "key worker" list that works in 10 Downing Street will be tested either for anti-bodies or, if they have symptoms, a "covid-19 infected now" test.
I doubt very much that was the case Paul.
We know that a number of people (celeibitries, journalists, sports stars etc) had tests so I'm sure one of the most powerful government officials could have been tested if he needed or wanted it.
What is more confusing (I'm being polite with my words here) is how 2 people who were according to the PM incapacitated and according to Cummings wife's account collapsed, on the floor and struggling to breathe (and now we later find out also losing the power of his eyesight) not admitted to hospital. Neither of them were - don`t you find that a little bit odd ?
At a time when they were in such a panic about their child neither of them thought that despite them being incapacitated, bed ridden, collapsing on the floor, losing sight etc etc that they should admit their partner to hospital.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by tiger76 » Tue May 26, 2020 2:18 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:58 pm
His constituents aren’t being asked or expected to abide by them. They abide by the regulations set by the Scottish government so it’s not a valid reason as he’s set out in his letter, unless what you’re saying is his constituents don’t understand the devolution elect but I would imagine they do.

2 days before he drove back to London he drove to Barnard Castle a journey that wasnt essential - treat him the same way everyone else would be. Should we be getting the police to check APNR systems and writing to all registered keepers asking why there car was being used?
What you state is correct and if Dominic Cummings had explained his actions days ago and apologised for the Bernard Castle trip then the public might have some sympathy for him.

Instead we've had cabinet minister after cabinet minister coming up with bonkers excuses for him,and its detracting from the government's messaging.

I have doubts about his jaunt to Durham in the 1st place,but i can just about accept his reasoning for that,what i can't get my head around is the 60 mile round trip that was non-essential with his wife and child in the car.

I''m afraid the attitude of Mr Cummings,the PM and the government smacks of contempt for the millions of British people who've endured these restrictions to our liberties for weeks on end.

It reeks of privilege and i'll do what i want and blow the consequences for everyone else.

What happened to "the people's government"?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 2:21 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:03 pm
I think Twitter relies on people screenshotting and saving other peoples tweets so if they delete them then they can be still held to account around their previous words.

I think quite a few prominent Tory brexiteers including JRM deleted lots of tweets because what they were saying in 2015, 2016 and 2017 about Brexit was completely contradicted by what they have been saying the last couple of years.

The public and journalists have got a lot more media savvy to this nowadays and because people in power have become so comfortable with lying and rewriting history I think there are large groups of people who make it their job to save and archive peoples tweets so they dont get away with this kind of behaviour anymore

Have you any thoughts on Cummings changing his blog and then lying about it in his statement?
Hi DA, thanks. Tall Paul has given a good answer re twitter - no edit functionality. I get the "create copies of other people's tweets." I assume that you'd need to be a "person of interest" before this would be set up.

And, thinking about that, if copies of what people have blogged/posted/tweeted are being recorded by others, is that why so many people adopt a pseudonym to hide the true identity of the person posting?

PS: I've not got round to reading DC's blog, yet. I am curious about his blogs. It also puzzles me that someone close to government, never mind someone with DC's background and experience, would not be aware of capabilities such as way back. It would be surprising if his motivation for the edit he made in April would only be to create a story he could report to the PM and later to the UK media - and the rest of the UK population - over the last 72 hours, or so.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue May 26, 2020 2:21 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 10:53 am
But there was no suggestion of reasonableness in your first post He deemed it necessary, rightly or wrongly, therefore he did nothing wrong.. So long as the person getting those windows deemed it necessary, rightly or wrongly, they did nothing wrong.

Given that multiple people have been forced to resign over lockdown breaches it clearly isn't just an issue because it's Cummings.
But I don't know if he was right or wrong, neither do you, but you just presume he is because it suits an agenda. I've said that if it's proved otherwise I'll support his haranguing, but IF he told us the truth, then I don't think he has done anything wrong.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue May 26, 2020 2:27 pm

joey13 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:29 am
And what about his jolly to Barnard Castle while he was testing his eyes ?
Describing it as a 'Jolly' is just compounding the media theories, not taking it at face value. I agree it seems strange, in his place I would have just said I drove to Barnard Castle, so what? It is possible to go to BC during the lockdown. It was 2 weeks after he went to durham, and as he said the Doctor had cleared him to return to work. He didn't break lockdown, he was doing what everyone else was doing. It's still possible to go there and maintain social distancing. The very reason that he had no need to make up such a story, just lends me to think that as daft as it sounds, it was probably the truth.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Zlatan » Tue May 26, 2020 2:29 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:27 pm
Describing it as a 'Jolly' is just compounding the media theories, not taking it at face value. I agree it seems strange, in his place I would have just said I drove to Barnard Castle, so what? It is possible to go to BC during the lockdown. It was 2 weeks after he went to durham, and as he said the Doctor had cleared him to return to work. He didn't break lockdown, he was doing what everyone else was doing. It's still possible to go there and maintain social distancing. The very reason that he had no need to make up such a story, just lends me to think that as daft as it sounds, it was probably the truth.
At the time of the visit to the castle he was breaking lockdown rules, hence the apparent fairy tale about testing his eyesight by driving, illegally I must add, to the castle

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 2:31 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:16 pm
I doubt very much that was the case Paul.
We know that a number of people (celeibitries, journalists, sports stars etc) had tests so I'm sure one of the most powerful government officials could have been tested if he needed or wanted it.
What is more confusing (I'm being polite with my words here) is how 2 people who were according to the PM incapacitated and according to Cummings wife's account collapsed, on the floor and struggling to breathe (and now we later find out also losing the power of his eyesight) not admitted to hospital. Neither of them were - don`t you find that a little bit odd ?
At a time when they were in such a panic about their child neither of them thought that despite them being incapacitated, bed ridden, collapsing on the floor, losing sight etc etc that they should admit their partner to hospital.
Hi TVC15, I've heard of and spoken to a number of people who've been unwell with what they believe was covid-19. I understand that they all dialled NHS 111 and were advised to stay at home. That there was no suggestion that these people were required to go to hospital or GP surgery for covid-19 testing. Hasn't the message been "if you have the symptoms, stay at home, self-isolate, dial NHS 111...." etc for everyone - and only those who required to call an ambulance?

Mary Wakefield's account of her and her husband's health experiences aren't unique. There've been lots of reports in the media about "what it's like to have covid-19."

And, isn't MW's report and DC's report that Mrs DC recovered and wasn't "incapacitated, bed ridden, collapsing on the floor" for so long. From what we've been told, it was only DC who suffered from vision difficulties.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Tue May 26, 2020 2:35 pm

Burnley's MP's cut and paste response has a whiff of the "Kitty Ushers" about it. He might not have been parachuted in, but he looks very much a party man, not a town representative.

Happy to see evidence to the contrary, as im somewhat out of the loop over here.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:21 pm
Hi DA, thanks. Tall Paul has given a good answer re twitter - no edit functionality. I get the "create copies of other people's tweets." I assume that you'd need to be a "person of interest" before this would be set up.

And, thinking about that, if copies of what people have blogged/posted/tweeted are being recorded by others, is that why so many people adopt a pseudonym to hide the true identity of the person posting?

PS: I've not got round to reading DC's blog, yet. I am curious about his blogs. It also puzzles me that someone close to government, never mind someone with DC's background and experience, would not be aware of capabilities such as way back. It would be surprising if his motivation for the edit he made in April would only be to create a story he could report to the PM and later to the UK media - and the rest of the UK population - over the last 72 hours, or so.
Yes I dont think there are people making copies of tweets by normal bods lke me and you just yet!!!

I don't think that is the reason for pseudonyms at all. The pseudonyms tend to be a combination of people who just like to be private and anonymous (which I can understand) and those who use platforms like Twitter to be vile and abusive and so have to hide behind a fake identity

As regards the blog then its not about people like Cummings not being aware as Im sure if they stopped and thought for a moment they are more than clever enough. The issue is that they are used to lying and actual getting cheered on for their lies by people more concerned about winning than the truth and whats right. This in turn leads to a sheer arrogance in people like Cummings and that leads to being caught out as he has been in this case

You can choose to read what you like but there is no justifiable reason for Cummings editing his 2019 blog in the way he did since his Durham trip but for the use to lie and misrepresent himself over.

So come Paul please read it and condemn his actions. You say you are fair and balanced but I cant honestly remember you once agreeing with any criticisms of the Tory Govt and their actions.

I rarely engage in conversation with you cos I see you as completely disingenuous and not interested in trying to find the truth but more trying to spin it your way so show me for once that you are willing to agree with criticism of the Tory's rather than just changing the subject into something completely different
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Spijed » Tue May 26, 2020 2:44 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:35 pm
Burnley's MP's cut and paste response has a whiff of the "Kitty Ushers" about it. He might not have been parachuted in, but he looks very much a party man, not a town representative.

Happy to see evidence to the contrary, as im somewhat out of the loop over here.
Burnley's MP looks like he should be the MP for Royston Vasey

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Tue May 26, 2020 2:45 pm

Spijed wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:44 pm
Burnley's MP looks like he should be the MP for Royston Vasey
Being no oil painting myself, i'm reluctant to address that particular angle.

I was interested to see that on here, a search for his name brings up only posts from around election night. does that hint at how active or otherwise he has been?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Damo » Tue May 26, 2020 2:56 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:10 pm
Really? You don’t think the fact that the government are lying to us, which you have accepted yourself, is the real issue? It seems that you’re perfectly happy being lied to by our government, particularly when it winds up the ‘lefties’, but don’t tar the rest of the population with your ridiculously low standards.
The government lied?
My goodness. Surely not? Politicians dont lie. That's outrageous. Hopefully this doesnt catch on. I mean, it would be awful if a politician you support started telling porkies wouldn't it.
I can just imagine your outrage

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 3:00 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 pm
Yes I dont think there are people making copies of tweets by normal bods lke me and you just yet!!!

I don't think that is the reason for pseudonyms at all. The pseudonyms tend to be a combination of people who just like to be private and anonymous (which I can understand) and those who use platforms like Twitter to be vile and abusive and so have to hide behind a fake identity

As regards the blog then its not about people like Cummings not being aware as Im sure if they stopped and thought for a moment they are more than clever enough. The issue is that they are used to lying and actual getting cheered on for their lies by people more concerned about winning than the truth and whats right. This in turn leads to a sheer arrogance in people like Cummings and that leads to being caught out as he has been in this case

You can choose to read what you like but there is no justifiable reason for Cummings editing his 2019 blog in the way he did since his Durham trip but for the use to lie and misrepresent himself over.

So come Paul please read it and condemn his actions. You say you are fair and balanced but I cant honestly remember you once agreeing with any criticisms of the Tory Govt and their actions.

I rarely engage in conversation with you cos I see you as completely disingenuous and not interested in trying to find the truth but more trying to spin it your way so show me for once that you are willing to agree with criticism of the Tory's rather than just changing the subject into something completely different
Wow, DA, a lot for me to take in there.

Re pseudonyms, yes, I understand your real name is not "devils advocate." But, are there really only the two alternatives you offer? And, what is the distinction you make between "private and anonymous" and "vile and abusive..?" I've no problem you being "DA." if we knew each other and were chatting in a pub (remember pubs?), would you suddenly make the statements you've just done with respect to me? Do you really need me (and, I don't claim to be exceptional, so others, also) to always share all your opinions? I'm happy to learn things from you. I'm also happy to read your comments. I don't feel the need to agree with you, sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. I'm also happy if you do me the same courtesy.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Rileybobs » Tue May 26, 2020 3:04 pm

Damo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:56 pm
The government lied?
My goodness. Surely not? Politicians dont lie. That's outrageous. Hopefully this doesnt catch on. I mean, it would be awful if a politician you support started telling porkies wouldn't it.
I can just imagine your outrage
I wouldn't support any politician who told me barefaced lies. The sheer contempt Cummings and the government have shown to the public in this incident is shameful.

Like I say, Damo, you have ridiculously low standards.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by tiger76 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:09 pm

I found this funny

Tusk mocks Cummings over lockdown furore
Former president of the European Council Donald Tusk has mocked Dominic Cummings, as the ex-Vote Leave chief battles allegations he broke the UK's coronavirus lockdown.

In a tweet, Mr Tusk addresses Mr Cummings, who is UK PM Boris Johnson's top aide and currently embroiled in controversy over a 260-mile trip to County Durham.

Mr Cummings and No 10 insist no laws were broken - but that hasn't stopped Mr Tusk from issuing the jibe:

Donald Tusk
@donaldtusk

This is apparently Cummings and his Brexit friends’ rule: that they leave when they should stay.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Greenmile » Tue May 26, 2020 3:09 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 pm
....I rarely engage in conversation with you cos I see you as completely disingenuous and not interested in trying to find the truth but more trying to spin it your way so show me for once that you are willing to agree with criticism of the Tory's rather than just changing the subject into something completely different
This ^

It took me an embarrassingly long time to realise it, but Paul Waine is just a slightly more polite version of dsr. Completely disingenuous, never willing to engage in an honest conversation, and basically just parroting the CCHQ line at every available opportunity.

At least folk like Ringo, Colburn, Damo, and Crosspool are honest about their idiotic opinions.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by TVC15 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:13 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:31 pm
Hi TVC15, I've heard of and spoken to a number of people who've been unwell with what they believe was covid-19. I understand that they all dialled NHS 111 and were advised to stay at home. That there was no suggestion that these people were required to go to hospital or GP surgery for covid-19 testing. Hasn't the message been "if you have the symptoms, stay at home, self-isolate, dial NHS 111...." etc for everyone - and only those who required to call an ambulance?

Mary Wakefield's account of her and her husband's health experiences aren't unique. There've been lots of reports in the media about "what it's like to have covid-19."

And, isn't MW's report and DC's report that Mrs DC recovered and wasn't "incapacitated, bed ridden, collapsing on the floor" for so long. From what we've been told, it was only DC who suffered from vision difficulties.
Hi Paul
Seeing your GP was not an option.
If (and it’s a big if in my book) DC was displaying the type of symptoms that MW was describing I would be very surprised that they would advise staying at home. My wife is a very experienced nurse and agrees - and I accept that does not mean I am necessarily correct.
As for MW I never believed for one minute that she was ever incapacitated - and I certainly don’t believe for one second they were incapacitated at the same time.
Which begs the main question you return to every time - why could they not stay put as there was always one of them fit and well enough to look after their child - as later proven by the fact that they never needed the help of anybody else.
IMHO lots of what they have both said does not stack up and for me never will.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Damo » Tue May 26, 2020 3:15 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:04 pm
I wouldn't support any politician who told me barefaced lies. The sheer contempt Cummings and the government have shown to the public in this incident is shameful.

Like I say, Damo, you have ridiculously low standards.
I might have low standards when it comes to voting for my favourite snake oil salesman, but at least I'm honest. Unlike you who (I assume from your comments on all the political threads that you "very rarely post on) voted for Jeremy Corbyn at the last GE
Remember when he sat on the floor of an empty train pretending there were no empty seats? What about the one about watching the queens speech? Or pretending to want to remain part of the EU. Or the one about tories selling the NHS. Or the time.... Oh you would probably just be better off googling them

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by joey13 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:20 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:27 pm
Describing it as a 'Jolly' is just compounding the media theories, not taking it at face value. I agree it seems strange, in his place I would have just said I drove to Barnard Castle, so what? It is possible to go to BC during the lockdown. It was 2 weeks after he went to durham, and as he said the Doctor had cleared him to return to work. He didn't break lockdown, he was doing what everyone else was doing. It's still possible to go there and maintain social distancing. The very reason that he had no need to make up such a story, just lends me to think that as daft as it sounds, it was probably the truth.
His wife’s birthday, coincidence,I don’t think so, I do wonder how people just choose to ignore lies , then again it’s not done Johnson any harm

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Mattster » Tue May 26, 2020 3:23 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:21 pm
PS: I've not got round to reading DC's blog, yet. I am curious about his blogs. It also puzzles me that someone close to government, never mind someone with DC's background and experience, would not be aware of capabilities such as way back. It would be surprising if his motivation for the edit he made in April would only be to create a story he could report to the PM and later to the UK media - and the rest of the UK population - over the last 72 hours, or so.
To me, this bit smacks of someone who considers themselves pretty tech savvy but only feels that way because the people they are in regular contact with (in this case politicians) are less so. I've had the same in a few places I've worked where I'm considered really good at computers but I'm not, I just know more than the other people in the office.

I honestly think he didn't know about things like wayback so it wouldn't surprise me if he has done something like this before to convince the politicians he's advising of his prescience and due to getting away with it has done so again - unfortunately there are people in the general public with much more savvy than himself (and certainly more so than politicians) and he's used it outside of that bubble so he's been caught out in the lie by a method he probably didn't even know existed.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Steve1956 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:32 pm

FB_IMG_1590503485621.jpg
FB_IMG_1590503485621.jpg (49.61 KiB) Viewed 2826 times

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by dsr » Tue May 26, 2020 3:38 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:13 pm
Hi Paul
Seeing your GP was not an option.
If (and it’s a big if in my book) DC was displaying the type of symptoms that MW was describing I would be very surprised that they would advise staying at home. My wife is a very experienced nurse and agrees - and I accept that does not mean I am necessarily correct.
As for MW I never believed for one minute that she was ever incapacitated - and I certainly don’t believe for one second they were incapacitated at the same time.
Which begs the main question you return to every time - why could they not stay put as there was always one of them fit and well enough to look after their child - as later proven by the fact that they never needed the help of anybody else.
IMHO lots of what they have both said does not stack up and for me never will.
So are you arguing that they shouldn't have driven to Durham until they were both incapacitated? :?

You must have a very high regard for Cummings' sagacity if you think that he knew in advance how ill he was going to be.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Rileybobs » Tue May 26, 2020 3:44 pm

Damo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:15 pm
I might have low standards when it comes to voting for my favourite snake oil salesman, but at least I'm honest. Unlike you who (I assume from your comments on all the political threads that you "very rarely post on) voted for Jeremy Corbyn at the last GE
Remember when he sat on the floor of an empty train pretending there were no empty seats? What about the one about watching the queens speech? Or pretending to want to remain part of the EU. Or the one about tories selling the NHS. Or the time.... Oh you would probably just be better off googling them
You're right that I voted Labour at the last GE, but that wasn't because I support the Labour Party and it certainly wasn't because I supported Corbyn. I voted for what I believe to be the party who was most likely to act in the best interests of the populace, and I found it a very difficult decision putting my cross in that box.

You can muddy the water all you like with what Corbyn did, it seems to be a common trend on here. But if you want to go down that road, had Dominic Cummings been advising a Corbyn-led government and the respective people acted in the same manner then I can hand on heart say that my feelings on this matter would be exactly the same. Can you honestly say you would have been so blase about this if it was Corbyn telling barefaced lies to the country down a camera? I think we both know the answer to this.

You see, there are people like you who chose a side and defend everything that side does to the hilt. Those people exist on both sides of the political spectrum and there are many examples on here. Then there are people like me, without a strong political allegiance who can look at a situation like this and call it out for what it is.

You're more interested in sneering at the 'lefties' being wound up by the actions of Cummings than his barefaced lying. It shows that you're more interested in just getting one up on the 'other side' and paints you in a really poor light.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 3:47 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:13 pm
Hi Paul
Seeing your GP was not an option.
If (and it’s a big if in my book) DC was displaying the type of symptoms that MW was describing I would be very surprised that they would advise staying at home. My wife is a very experienced nurse and agrees - and I accept that does not mean I am necessarily correct.
As for MW I never believed for one minute that she was ever incapacitated - and I certainly don’t believe for one second they were incapacitated at the same time.
Which begs the main question you return to every time - why could they not stay put as there was always one of them fit and well enough to look after their child - as later proven by the fact that they never needed the help of anybody else.
IMHO lots of what they have both said does not stack up and for me never will.
Hi TVC15, agree, seeing your GP was not an option. What does MW say in her Spectator article? I thought she'd said something to the effect that she "got off lightly" whereas DC "had it bad." I agree with you that we've only got MW's and DC's reports. Neither ended up in hospital. DC reports he was unwell somewhere around 14 days - plus his report that his vision was impaired. (My estimate is based on DC becoming unwell after he'd arrived in Durham and feeling he was recovering and well enough to seek medical advice about returning to work around 12 April).

It may be that there is something personal to DC's family that he does not want to share with everyone. We do know that he left London and travelled to Durham. There are external data points that confirm this, independently of DC and DC's family.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:00 pm
Wow, DA, a lot for me to take in there.

Re pseudonyms, yes, I understand your real name is not "devils advocate." But, are there really only the two alternatives you offer? And, what is the distinction you make between "private and anonymous" and "vile and abusive..?" I've no problem you being "DA." if we knew each other and were chatting in a pub (remember pubs?), would you suddenly make the statements you've just done with respect to me? Do you really need me (and, I don't claim to be exceptional, so others, also) to always share all your opinions? I'm happy to learn things from you. I'm also happy to read your comments. I don't feel the need to agree with you, sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. I'm also happy if you do me the same courtesy.
When I am talking about vile and abusive I am not talking about anyone or anything on this messageboard. I am talking about people on platforms Twitter or Facebook who threaten, harass, and post all sort of homophobic, racist and all other sorts of bigotry attacks on people

People might have a go at each other on here but this is a friendly board well moderated.

There is nothing I haven't said to you on here that I wouldn't say to your face. The difference is if we sat in a pub together we would be able to have a good discussion and cover a lot of the bumph in a 5 min chat rather than multiple posts. Very quickly we would both be able to judge whether we had any interest in carrying on the discussion with each other or going and talking to someone else. Unfortunately it would almost certainly be the latter for me

I've said some of the things to you because I think you are someone who can discuss and argue a point well and I like hearing good arguments from people with different viewpoints. This only works if the other person is arguing in good faith and like I said you come across as very disingenuous.

Its very disappointing but as we are going to be discussing the same threads I will still from time to time with engage you and hope you will converse in genuine debate but from the Cummings blog posts you still seem to be up to your normal trick of trying to distract and deflect
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by TVC15 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:38 pm
So are you arguing that they shouldn't have driven to Durham until they were both incapacitated? :?

You must have a very high regard for Cummings' sagacity if you think that he knew in advance how ill he was going to be.
There you go again DSR trying to be clever and failing once again quite spectacularly.

No I am arguing that they should not have gone to Durham because they were not incapacitated at the same time - that is now an established fact as they never needed to call on their families help.
So the point of that - just to clarify for you - is that one of them was always fit enough to look after their child so they should not have driven anywhere.

Do try and keep up

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by aggi » Tue May 26, 2020 3:50 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:26 am
It does make a difference what the breach was for. Some people - not everyone, mind - see a trip for the wellbeing of a child is different from a trip to check on the wellbeing of a house, or a small party at home.

Even on the visiting the second home, the Scottish official could have had a case. If she had been told that water was flooding out of the front door, it would have been deemed reasonable to go and visit the house. Just for a day out was not reasonable,.

The irony of Cuimmings is that if he had been divorced and his wife lived in Durham, he could have gone up there every weekend to see his son if that was the routine.
Was the drive to Barnard Castle for the wellbeing of a child? I'd say it seems quite the reverse if anything (I'm not sure if I'm up to driving but you're getting in the car anyway).

Obviously the risk to the wellbeing of the child is unlikely to get tested in court so it's something that individuals will have to consider in this context. Was the risk that they were both going to become incapacitated that high given that, as you have posted multiple times, it is a statistically low risk illness for the Cummings' demographic.

I'm not sure what the irony is in the last line. The laws were drawn up in such a way to minimise movements which is why there was a pretty specific exemptions for keeping the routine of visitation or going to a family member's funeral as it is likely they had an idea of the numbers that would cover. It didn't add an exemption for travelling to family members for child care because that would potentially have had a much more wider range and put more people at risk.

For those who are wondering what the law actually said, it was here (these came into force on 26th March):

Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living
without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
(a) to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;
(b) to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;
(c) to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of Schedule 2;
(d) to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding of Vulnerable Groups Act 2006(a), to a vulnerable person, or to provide emergency assistance;
(e) to donate blood;
(f) to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
(g) to attend a funeral of—
(i) a member of the person’s household,
(ii) a close family member, or
(iii) if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;
(h) to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;
(i) to access critical public services, including—
(i) childcare or educational facilities (where these are still available to a child in relation to whom that person is the parent, or has parental responsibility for, or care of the child);
(ii) social services;
(iii) services provided by the Department of Work and Pensions;
(iv) services provided to victims (such as victims of crime);
(j) in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children, and for the purposes of this paragraph, “parent” includes a person who is not a parent of the child, but who has parental responsibility for, or who has care of, the child;
(k) in the case of a minister of religion or worship leader, to go to their place of worship;
(l) to move house where reasonably necessary;
(m) to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.
(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1), the place where a person is living includes the premises
where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other
appurtenance of such premises.
(4) Paragraph (1) does not apply to any person who is homeless.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by TVC15 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:47 pm
Hi TVC15, agree, seeing your GP was not an option. What does MW say in her Spectator article? I thought she'd said something to the effect that she "got off lightly" whereas DC "had it bad." I agree with you that we've only got MW's and DC's reports. Neither ended up in hospital. DC reports he was unwell somewhere around 14 days - plus his report that his vision was impaired. (My estimate is based on DC becoming unwell after he'd arrived in Durham and feeling he was recovering and well enough to seek medical advice about returning to work around 12 April).

It may be that there is something personal to DC's family that he does not want to share with everyone. We do know that he left London and travelled to Durham. There are external data points that confirm this, independently of DC and DC's family.
It was the government who said they were both incapacitated and firstly i never thought she was and secondly we know for a fact that they were not incapacitated at the same time.
If she said that she got off lightly then why did they need to drive to Durham when she was well enough to look after the child and even when she had her “got off lightly” symptoms he did not even have it or shown any symptoms.
There was always one of them throughout this period well enough to look after the other one and their child.

And no I don’t believe they went up there “just in case” either....the timelines and their stories might don’t stack up.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Zlatan » Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 pm

To add, the exceptional circumstances for children were intended to be used as a caveat for sufferers of domestic abuse. It was in no way intended to be used in the manner in which the propaganda spin doctor had used it.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 pm

Mattster wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:23 pm
To me, this bit smacks of someone who considers themselves pretty tech savvy but only feels that way because the people they are in regular contact with (in this case politicians) are less so. I've had the same in a few places I've worked where I'm considered really good at computers but I'm not, I just know more than the other people in the office.

I honestly think he didn't know about things like wayback so it wouldn't surprise me if he has done something like this before to convince the politicians he's advising of his prescience and due to getting away with it has done so again - unfortunately there are people in the general public with much more savvy than himself (and certainly more so than politicians) and he's used it outside of that bubble so he's been caught out in the lie by a method he probably didn't even know existed.
It's a fair point, Mattster. I've often wondered why "switch it off then switch it on again" was the solution to a number of tech problems. We've got to hope these days that the "cyber security" briefing is a little more comprehensive than "don't write your password down, minister."

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by aggi » Tue May 26, 2020 3:57 pm

This is the account of the Cummings household Coronavirus experience:

Image
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by fatboy47 » Tue May 26, 2020 4:01 pm

aggi may welk be correct in saying "" the risk to the wellbeing of the child is unlikely to be tested in court""...but I can confirm that in recent years Ive dealt with a number of safeguarding referrals of this nature....often concens over the effects of prescription and non prescription drugs are factors.

I cant speak for Durham but be assured that if this happened in my home area then it would be followed up by the Childrens Safeguarding Board without question.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 4:04 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm
When I am talking about vile and abusive I am not talking about anyone or anything on this messageboard. I am talking about people on platforms Twitter or Facebook who threaten, harass, and post all sort of homophobic, racist and all other sorts of bigotry attacks on people

People might have a go at each other on here but this is a friendly board well moderated.

There is nothing I haven't said to you on here that I wouldn't say to your face. The difference is if we sat in a pub together we would be able to have a good discussion and cover a lot of the bumph in a 5 min chat rather than multiple posts. Very quickly we would both be able to judge whether we had any interest in carrying on the discussion with each other or going and talking to someone else. Unfortunately it would almost certainly be the latter for me

I've said some of the things to you because I think you are someone who can discuss and argue a point well and I like hearing good arguments from people with different viewpoints. This only works if the other person is arguing in good faith and like I said you come across as very disingenuous.

Its very disappointing but as we are going to be discussing the same threads I will still from time to time with engage you and hope you will converse in genuine debate but from the Cummings blog posts you still seem to be up to your normal trick of trying to distract and deflect
I've liked your post, DA. There are some things in that post I like and welcome. There are some others I'd suggest you are making mis-judgements. No worries. Maybe we will get together in a pub someday. Cheers. ;)
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by tiger76 » Tue May 26, 2020 4:14 pm

Scottish Tories calling for Cummings to go https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52802057

Hints of further resignations to follow if Cummings isn't removed,this could become toxic for the Tories.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Damo » Tue May 26, 2020 4:15 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:44 pm
You're right that I voted Labour at the last GE, but that wasn't because I support the Labour Party and it certainly wasn't because I supported Corbyn. I voted for what I believe to be the party who was most likely to act in the best interests of the populace, and I found it a very difficult decision putting my cross in that box.

You can muddy the water all you like with what Corbyn did, it seems to be a common trend on here. But if you want to go down that road, had Dominic Cummings been advising a Corbyn-led government and the respective people acted in the same manner then I can hand on heart say that my feelings on this matter would be exactly the same. Can you honestly say you would have been so blase about this if it was Corbyn telling barefaced lies to the country down a camera? I think we both know the answer to this.

You see, there are people like you who chose a side and defend everything that side does to the hilt. Those people exist on both sides of the political spectrum and there are many examples on here. Then there are people like me, without a strong political allegiance who can look at a situation like this and call it out for what it is.

You're more interested in sneering at the 'lefties' being wound up by the actions of Cummings than his barefaced lying. It shows that you're more interested in just getting one up on the 'other side' and paints you in a really poor light.
In a thread, where you are displaying your disgust for people in politics lying, I gave you some examples of other people in politics lying.
The fact you are absolutely disgusted about one group and not the other says that you dont look at situations for what they are. Nor would your hypothetical feelings about Cummings actions being the same had he been advising Corbyn.
Please dont double down on your dishonesty by claiming otherwise. You are starting to sound like DC
Oh, and had your hypothetical situation been a reality, I probably would have posted some memes or something. I certainly wouldn't be ranting about it for days.
In truth, your standards are no higher than mine when it comes to politics. You still vote for the person you think best suits your circumstances. Even when they are proven to be dishonest.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by dsr » Tue May 26, 2020 4:16 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm
There you go again DSR trying to be clever and failing once again quite spectacularly.

No I am arguing that they should not have gone to Durham because they were not incapacitated at the same time - that is now an established fact as they never needed to call on their families help.
So the point of that - just to clarify for you - is that one of them was always fit enough to look after their child so they should not have driven anywhere.

Do try and keep up
You're still arguing that they should not have gone to Durham in March because they were not going to be ill in April. You haven;t yet explained how they knew they weren't going to be both incapacitated simultaneously.

But out of interest, if they had both been incapacitated at the same time in April, would that have justified their decision to drive north in March?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Grumps » Tue May 26, 2020 4:22 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:55 pm
To add, the exceptional circumstances for children were intended to be used as a caveat for sufferers of domestic abuse. It was in no way intended to be used in the manner in which the propaganda spin doctor had used it.
Nothing to do with child abuse
The exact paragraph Cummings and others quoted fron is included in the document linked.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -infection

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