Dominic Cummings

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tiger76
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by tiger76 » Tue May 26, 2020 5:59 pm

:shock: at this even in our current febrile political climate this is :x

Bishops get death threats over Cummings criticism

Senior bishops who criticised Dominic Cummings' lockdown travel say they have received death threats.

Bishops in Newcastle, Ripon and Liverpool are among those who have said they have received hate mail.

A number of church leaders criticised Mr Cummings' trip from London to Durham to self-isolate.

Bishop of Worcester John Inge said he got a "delightful email" saying: "Stay out of politics or we'll kill you."

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue May 26, 2020 6:16 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 4:56 pm
I understand your point, however a 4 year old could quite easily just sit there and wait until a responsible adult arrives from elsewhere, whereas a 18 month old toddler couldn't -
Listen to yourself!! How f’in desperate are you! A 4 year old could easily sit there and wait!! Do you have children? Reading through your posts over last 36 hours, you are in a downward spiral and need some help, seriously stop commenting on this thread, you’re adding nothing new, your position isn’t going to change nor are you going to change anyone else’s!!

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Tue May 26, 2020 6:17 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:57 pm
Seriously ?
You think that the PM’s official and most senior advisor who is literally creating government policy and strategy in relation to lockdown should be fined £60 not only breaking the guidelines but then subsequently lying to the whole of the country ?
Surely it should be at least £120 to cover his wife too !
Not my decision, nor anyone else on here, however, these were the guidelines given at the time ---you know --those that he broke! You wouldn't want anyone to go against the guidelines, would you?
I thought that with all the furore they would be trying to reintroduce capital punishment.

It's a good job that he isn't an MP! I certainly won't lose any sleep over any of this, nor will it affect my mental health or my blood pressure.
It is what it is, however, the threats being issued by those defending Cummings against those criticising him are just ridiculous and show the depths to which society has sunk. Very sad.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Swizzlestick » Tue May 26, 2020 6:19 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:16 pm
Listen to yourself!! How f’in desperate are you! A 4 year old could easily sit there and wait!! Do you have children? Reading through your posts over last 36 hours, you are in a downward spiral and need some help, seriously stop commenting on this thread, you’re adding nothing new, your position isn’t going to change nor are you going to change anyone else’s!!
Hark at billy big ******** here.

You sound more aggrieved that people aren't agreeing with you than anything else. You're probably just going to have to deal with that rather than over-using the exclamation mark and come across as some third rate Danny Dyer tribute.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Spiral » Tue May 26, 2020 6:27 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:36 am
That’s got nothing to do with Cummings. Regardless of lockdown regulations you would still not have been allowed onto a ward because that goes against the medical advice and the hospital rules. Funerals Times have been shortened because of demand not lockdown and the number of people have been restricted because of the limited space to ensure social distancing is maintained.

Cummings thinks he had a reasonable excuse, you don’t. If Cummings had been caught speeding would you be on here outraged demanding that all speeding restrictions be ignored?
It is at times like talking to a plate of mashed potatoes on here. How you've read what I posted in response to houseboy and came to the conclusion that I believe lockdown rules should be ignored is beyond me. Sacrifices have been made, and are being made by people up and down the country. That much is obvious. It's not difficult to imagine how the bereaved, whose grieving process is being stifled by the sacrifices they're making in order to reduce the spread of the very disease that took their dearly departed, might look at the actions of Cummings and the govt handling of the situation and be disgusted. It gives the impression to folk who might still be raw (and thus more impulsive and emotional) from the death of a family member that their sacrifices are cheaper than dirt to the people whom they look to manage the pandemic; who, it appears, are granted a certain latitude and opportunity to litigate in public and in their own words their flaunting of the rules where others are not. I'm sure anyone slapped with a fine or even just accosted by coppers on the streets had their own reasons, too, tenuous as many probably were. By no means am I arguing that lockdown should be ignored, I'm arguing that in order for the law to be considered by the public to be legitimate and observed obediently and with obeisance, it must be upheld universally.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Rileybobs » Tue May 26, 2020 6:31 pm

Spiral wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:27 pm
It is at times like talking to a plate of mashed potatoes on here.
:lol:

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by aggi » Tue May 26, 2020 6:33 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:00 pm
This is what the law said at that time about restrictions on movement:

Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need

(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;
(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;
(c)to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of Schedule 2;
(d)to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding of Vulnerable Groups Act 2006(3), to a vulnerable person, or to provide emergency assistance;
(e)to donate blood;
(f)to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
(g)to attend a funeral of—
(i)a member of the person’s household,
(ii)a close family member, or
(iii)if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;
(h)to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;
(i)to access critical public services, including—
(i)childcare or educational facilities (where these are still available to a child in relation to whom that person is the parent, or has parental responsibility for, or care of the child);
(ii)social services;
(iii)services provided by the Department of Work and Pensions;
(iv)services provided to victims (such as victims of crime);
(j)in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children, and for the purposes of this paragraph, “parent” includes a person who is not a parent of the child, but who has parental responsibility for, or who has care of, the child;
(k)in the case of a minister of religion or worship leader, to go to their place of worship;
(l)to move house where reasonably necessary;
(m)to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

So there is no question that leaving home to provide care for a child is allowed if there is need. Now, where he might be in trouble is the suggestion that the child does not "need" care until both parents are incapacitated to the extent of being unable to look after him. At that point, and at that point only - it is alleged - they can get help in. What the child does while his parents are unable to look after him but help has not yet arrived, I'm not sure.
Vulnerable person is defined at Section 1c though:

“vulnerable person” includes—
(i)any person aged 70 or older;
(ii)any person under 70 who has an underlying health condition, including but not limited to, the conditions listed in Schedule 1;
(iii)any person who is pregnant.


A child isn't defined as a vulnerable person.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Grumps » Tue May 26, 2020 6:39 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:33 pm
Vulnerable person is defined at Section 1c though:

“vulnerable person” includes—
(i)any person aged 70 or older;
(ii)any person under 70 who has an underlying health condition, including but not limited to, the conditions listed in Schedule 1;
(iii)any person who is pregnant.


A child isn't defined as a vulnerable person.
Other than on here, has anyone used the vulnerable child as an excuse to move from London?
Cummings certainly didn't in the presser yesterday

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by bfcjg » Tue May 26, 2020 6:39 pm

Johnson Cummings and the cabinet just remind me off upper class idiots who think because they went to Eton are superior, they are so like the characters in Blackadder, Cummings iscDarling.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fHrSkVKdCRk

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by tiger76 » Tue May 26, 2020 6:44 pm

Politician who lost mum to Covid-19 'pretty angry' about Cummings

The leader of Dumfries and Galloway Council has said she was "pretty angry" about the situation involving Dominic Cummings.

She has written to Scottish Secretary Alister Jack voice support for Douglas Ross' resignation. The former Labour MSP said Cummings' excuse was not "reasonable" and "he should have known better than anyone what the advice was".

Dr Murray told BBC Radio Scotland: "My mother was in a care home, she was suffering from advanced dementia. On 20 April I was advised that she'd have a stroke and that she probably didn't have very long to live.

"I was lucky because the care home allowed me in to visit her two days consecutively, but I wasn't there when she died.

"My sister, who's in London, her instinct - as we were saying about Cummings - would have been to get on a train and come up to try and see her. She didn't do it. She was unable to attend the funeral because she lived in London and she wasn't going to take the risk of travelling by public transport and changing at Carlisle to come up to Dumfries.

"As I say, I am one family of many who have been in the position where we have not been able to mourn properly, where's we've not been able to say goodbye to the person we loved properly."

This isn't going to go away,and it's really going to hurt the Tories in Scotland.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by aggi » Tue May 26, 2020 6:47 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:21 pm
But I don't know if he was right or wrong, neither do you, but you just presume he is because it suits an agenda. I've said that if it's proved otherwise I'll support his haranguing, but IF he told us the truth, then I don't think he has done anything wrong.
That's true, I don't know for certain. I think he is wrong because I've read the legislation, not because it suits an agenda, and I can't see where the exemptions are.

However, your view was that so long as the person committing the offence deemed it necessary then they did nothing wrong. So if the person deems the journey necessary, regardless of whether it's travelling just in case you may need childcare or because you've got a bargain on second hand windows, then they're doing nothing wrong.

That clearly isn't the case though as the police have been making that judgement of what is necessary and fining accordingly.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Caballo » Tue May 26, 2020 6:49 pm

I can live with his version of events re the Durham isolation. The Barnard Castle trip however is utter nonsense from beginning to end, it was right up there with telling your teacher that the dog ate your home. What I found even more galling was he thought we're gullible enough to buy it. Absolutely 100% should resign or be fired. Not for the Durham isolation, not for the Barnard Castle jolly, but for lying to the electorate, we can't remove him as his name will never appear on the ballot paper, others can, and should.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by aggi » Tue May 26, 2020 6:50 pm

Grumps wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:39 pm
Other than on here, has anyone used the vulnerable child as an excuse to move from London?
Cummings certainly didn't in the presser yesterday
I think what DSR is trying to suggest, albeit wrongly, is that any child is by definition vulnerable and so when Cummings was talking about having to go to Durham for the safety of his child that was the exemption that was being used.

I was just pointing out that was incorrect.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 6:50 pm

Grumps wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:39 pm
Other than on here, has anyone used the vulnerable child as an excuse to move from London?
Cummings certainly didn't in the presser yesterday
Nope and although I disagree with a lot of what you say and still disagree with your thoughts on the initial journey I recognise that you said that if the day trip story was proved to have some substance you would condemn Cummings and thats exeactly what you have done so fair play

DSR however has continued to try and grasp at any straw he can to defend the Torys and that has included pedaling and unsubstantiated story about a child having autism and now trying to make out that the child is classed as vulnerable

Instead of challenging Aggi why dont you have a word with DSR who is the one still trying to make an issue out of this
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Zlatan » Tue May 26, 2020 6:56 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:16 pm
Listen to yourself!! How f’in desperate are you! A 4 year old could easily sit there and wait!! Do you have children? Reading through your posts over last 36 hours, you are in a downward spiral and need some help, seriously stop commenting on this thread, you’re adding nothing new, your position isn’t going to change nor are you going to change anyone else’s!!
Ha ha ha ha ha

Triggered... all you Cummings lovin lot need to chill out a bit, you can’t handle the truth. His actions for someone in his position were despicable and you just can’t accept it can you.

For the record, father of 2 step dad to 2 as well, one of which is on the autistic spectrum. My parenting skills and judgement are in question here, are they!

Cummings, in my opinion, and also in the opinion of a growing majority of the population, broke the rules and as such should be dealt with. He’s not been dealt with and people will not forget that those who should have dealt with him - and that’s the real worry for you isn’t it.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 6:57 pm

Lots of these letters doing the rounds but this one is short and sweet and hits the nail on the head for me.

The MP who got this letter has received around 1000 like this and MPs are stating majority of letters aren't from Cummings hating lefties but tend to be centrist Torys dismayed by what there party is being reduced too

Image

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 7:20 pm

OK, I've read a couple of DC's blogs.

I'll copy/paste a little of the March-2019 blog - blog heading and the section(s) quoted above:

The most secure bio-labs routinely make errors that could cause a global pandemic & are about to re-start experiments on pathogens engineered to make them mammalian-airborne-transmissible

‘But mandatory incident reporting to FSAP and NIH actually does provide sufficient data to quantify human error in BSL3 biocontainment labs…

‘Among other things, the GAO report called attention to a well-publicized incident in which a Defense Department laboratory “inadvertently sent live Bacillus anthracis, the bacterium that causes anthrax, to almost 200 laboratories worldwide over the course of 12 years. The laboratory believed that the samples had been inactivated.” The report describes yet another well-publicized incident in China in which “two researchers conducting virus research were exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) coronavirus samples that were incompletely inactivated. The researchers subsequently transmitted SARS to others, leading to several infections and one death in 2004.”

‘The GAO identified three recent releases of Ebola and Marburg viruses from BSL4 to lower containment labs due to incomplete inactivation.

‘A fourth release in 2014 from the CDC labs occurred when “Scientists inadvertently switched samples designated for live Ebola virus studies with samples intended for studies with inactivated material. As a result, the samples with viable Ebola virus, instead of the samples with inactivated Ebola virus, were transferred out of a BSL-4 laboratory to a laboratory with a lower safety level for additional analysis. While no one contracted Ebola virus in this instance, the consequences could have been dire for the personnel involved as there are currently no approved treatments or vaccines for this virus.”…

**************************

My comments:

1) The blog highlights text frequently, by bolding text. The sections bolded above are as they appear on DC's blog site.
2) Originally, when the way back machine details were posted (on this thread) it was suggested that the bold text shows the areas that DC has edited in April and May this year. (I'll use "edit" to include "adding text" i.e. "inserting" something that wasn't there previously, "amending text" which includes both "deleting text" and "deleting text and replacing with new text."
3) But, DC uses bold in numerous sections of his blog. Have I misunderstood that the bold text in the way back machine extract are the identified edits?
4) As above, there are numerous sections of his blog that uses bold text. Are the way back machine identified edits the only edits, or are there other edits in DC's blog? I'm just seeking to establish if there are other edits, or if way back machine has only identified two edits - and we can conclude that these are the only edits? (Would we get the same results if "way back" is repeated)?
5) I have copy/pasted from DC's blog in the order that the extracts appear in the blog. I notice differences with way back image. The sentence: ‘But mandatory incident reporting to FSAP and NIH actually does provide sufficient data to quantify human error in BSL3 biocontainment labs… appears only once in my extract. The same sentence appears on both way back images. The sentence: ‘The GAO identified three recent releases of Ebola and Marburg viruses from BSL4 to lower containment labs due to incomplete inactivation. doesn't appear in way back image. The words "[an example]" appear on the way back image - with the square brackets. These words don't appear on DC's blog. (There is a difference in order between the 2 sections in the way back image(s) and the order the sections appear in DC's blog. I'm assuming that that is only down to the ordering of way back image(s)).
6) Way back machine banner heading shows "16 captures" "31 March 2019 - 16 May 2020" and Apr 09 2020 and May 03 2020 (both in inverse yellow on black). Am I correct to understand these as "16 edits have been identified" from the original blog? and the two images shown are edits that were made on Apr 09 and May 03, respectively?
7) The blog concerns the title of the blog, security of labs that are working with pathogens. DC is questioning the security of these bio-labs and proposing, with examples, that human error can occur and bio-labs BSL3 and BSL4 labs are a risk.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Zlatan » Tue May 26, 2020 7:34 pm

Paul, for info the wayback machine is available here https://archive.org/web/ and it takes snapshots in time from many websites. These snapshots are dated and when you select the date, you see exactly what was displayed on that specific date.

In regards to the bolder text previously mentioned - I think DA (if it was DA) highlighted the bold sections himself to identify the changed/added text.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by martin_p » Tue May 26, 2020 7:39 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:33 pm
Vulnerable person is defined at Section 1c though:

“vulnerable person” includes—
(i)any person aged 70 or older;
(ii)any person under 70 who has an underlying health condition, including but not limited to, the conditions listed in Schedule 1;
(iii)any person who is pregnant.


A child isn't defined as a vulnerable person.
This! The definition of ‘vulnerable person’ has been clear pretty much from the start of this, over 70 or with a medical condition. It was those people who were told to be most careful.

What I don’t get about dsr’s argument is that on the school thread he’s been one of those wanting 4 year olds back at school saying they are less likely to catch and/or transmit the virus but on this thread is arguing 4 year olds are ‘vulnerable’.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Zlatan » Tue May 26, 2020 7:43 pm


Vegas Claret
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Vegas Claret » Tue May 26, 2020 7:46 pm

houseboy wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:04 pm
Because he made the rules, or at least was a major architect. If people are forced to do something and are fined for not doing it that is one thing but to do the forcing and then ignore your own instruction is hypocritical at the very least. The problem now is this, if for some reason the government says we need to re-introduce lockdown (hopefully not) they can hardly be surprised if millions of people say fck you Boris, I’m going to do what I think is best for my family like a good dad, just like Dominic Cummings. Millions of people have have had lives turned upside down because of lockdown, some for the rest of their lives, but most people did what was asked for the supposed greater good, but not this arrogant piece of sht. We could all have come up with a reason for special treatment but we didn’t, he is arrogant enough to think he was immune.
I think this will rumble on for a while but ultimately it will get left alone, but if lockdown were ever needed again this will hit Boris right between the eyes because people will not be nearly so ready to make the same horrific sacrifices.
fair enough, like I said, I'd not overly looked into the ins and outs.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by martin_p » Tue May 26, 2020 7:47 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:43 pm
Paul, also for info

https://fullfact.org/health/cummings-blog-coronavirus/
Please remember lying is perfectly normal in politics and we have no right to expect that the people who lead us or those that advise them are honest with us.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Tall Paul » Tue May 26, 2020 7:48 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:20 pm
OK, I've read a couple of DC's blogs.

I'll copy/paste a little of the March-2019 blog - blog heading and the section(s) quoted above:

The most secure bio-labs routinely make errors that could cause a global pandemic & are about to re-start experiments on pathogens engineered to make them mammalian-airborne-transmissible

‘But mandatory incident reporting to FSAP and NIH actually does provide sufficient data to quantify human error in BSL3 biocontainment labs…

‘Among other things, the GAO report called attention to a well-publicized incident in which a Defense Department laboratory “inadvertently sent live Bacillus anthracis, the bacterium that causes anthrax, to almost 200 laboratories worldwide over the course of 12 years. The laboratory believed that the samples had been inactivated.” The report describes yet another well-publicized incident in China in which “two researchers conducting virus research were exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) coronavirus samples that were incompletely inactivated. The researchers subsequently transmitted SARS to others, leading to several infections and one death in 2004.”

‘The GAO identified three recent releases of Ebola and Marburg viruses from BSL4 to lower containment labs due to incomplete inactivation.

‘A fourth release in 2014 from the CDC labs occurred when “Scientists inadvertently switched samples designated for live Ebola virus studies with samples intended for studies with inactivated material. As a result, the samples with viable Ebola virus, instead of the samples with inactivated Ebola virus, were transferred out of a BSL-4 laboratory to a laboratory with a lower safety level for additional analysis. While no one contracted Ebola virus in this instance, the consequences could have been dire for the personnel involved as there are currently no approved treatments or vaccines for this virus.”…

**************************

My comments:

1) The blog highlights text frequently, by bolding text. The sections bolded above are as they appear on DC's blog site.
2) Originally, when the way back machine details were posted (on this thread) it was suggested that the bold text shows the areas that DC has edited in April and May this year. (I'll use "edit" to include "adding text" i.e. "inserting" something that wasn't there previously, "amending text" which includes both "deleting text" and "deleting text and replacing with new text."
3) But, DC uses bold in numerous sections of his blog. Have I misunderstood that the bold text in the way back machine extract are the identified edits?
4) As above, there are numerous sections of his blog that uses bold text. Are the way back machine identified edits the only edits, or are there other edits in DC's blog? I'm just seeking to establish if there are other edits, or if way back machine has only identified two edits - and we can conclude that these are the only edits? (Would we get the same results if "way back" is repeated)?
5) I have copy/pasted from DC's blog in the order that the extracts appear in the blog. I notice differences with way back image. The sentence: ‘But mandatory incident reporting to FSAP and NIH actually does provide sufficient data to quantify human error in BSL3 biocontainment labs… appears only once in my extract. The same sentence appears on both way back images. The sentence: ‘The GAO identified three recent releases of Ebola and Marburg viruses from BSL4 to lower containment labs due to incomplete inactivation. doesn't appear in way back image. The words "[an example]" appear on the way back image - with the square brackets. These words don't appear on DC's blog. (There is a difference in order between the 2 sections in the way back image(s) and the order the sections appear in DC's blog. I'm assuming that that is only down to the ordering of way back image(s)).
6) Way back machine banner heading shows "16 captures" "31 March 2019 - 16 May 2020" and Apr 09 2020 and May 03 2020 (both in inverse yellow on black). Am I correct to understand these as "16 edits have been identified" from the original blog? and the two images shown are edits that were made on Apr 09 and May 03, respectively?
7) The blog concerns the title of the blog, security of labs that are working with pathogens. DC is questioning the security of these bio-labs and proposing, with examples, that human error can occur and bio-labs BSL3 and BSL4 labs are a risk.
Are you trying to argue that Cummings didn't add that paragraph on coronavirus in April this year?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by claret54 » Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 pm

Caballo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:49 pm
I can live with his version of events re the Durham isolation. The Barnard Castle trip however is utter nonsense from beginning to end, it was right up there with telling your teacher that the dog ate your home. What I found even more galling was he thought we're gullible enough to buy it. Absolutely 100% should resign or be fired. Not for the Durham isolation, not for the Barnard Castle jolly, but for lying to the electorate, we can't remove him as his name will never appear on the ballot paper, others can, and should.
We all know that Johnson is a liar always has been. Yet he was voted in by a substantial majority. So I'm not convinced by your argument that Cummings should be sacked for lying.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by martin_p » Tue May 26, 2020 7:54 pm

claret54 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 pm
We all know that Johnson is a liar always has been. Yet he was voted in by a substantial majority. So I'm not convinced by your argument that Cummings should be sacked for lying.
See!

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 7:55 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:20 pm
OK, I've read a couple of DC's blogs.

I'll copy/paste a little of the March-2019 blog - blog heading and the section(s) quoted above:

The most secure bio-labs routinely make errors that could cause a global pandemic & are about to re-start experiments on pathogens engineered to make them mammalian-airborne-transmissible

‘But mandatory incident reporting to FSAP and NIH actually does provide sufficient data to quantify human error in BSL3 biocontainment labs…

‘Among other things, the GAO report called attention to a well-publicized incident in which a Defense Department laboratory “inadvertently sent live Bacillus anthracis, the bacterium that causes anthrax, to almost 200 laboratories worldwide over the course of 12 years. The laboratory believed that the samples had been inactivated.” The report describes yet another well-publicized incident in China in which “two researchers conducting virus research were exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) coronavirus samples that were incompletely inactivated. The researchers subsequently transmitted SARS to others, leading to several infections and one death in 2004.”

‘The GAO identified three recent releases of Ebola and Marburg viruses from BSL4 to lower containment labs due to incomplete inactivation.

‘A fourth release in 2014 from the CDC labs occurred when “Scientists inadvertently switched samples designated for live Ebola virus studies with samples intended for studies with inactivated material. As a result, the samples with viable Ebola virus, instead of the samples with inactivated Ebola virus, were transferred out of a BSL-4 laboratory to a laboratory with a lower safety level for additional analysis. While no one contracted Ebola virus in this instance, the consequences could have been dire for the personnel involved as there are currently no approved treatments or vaccines for this virus.”…

**************************

My comments:

1) The blog highlights text frequently, by bolding text. The sections bolded above are as they appear on DC's blog site.
2) Originally, when the way back machine details were posted (on this thread) it was suggested that the bold text shows the areas that DC has edited in April and May this year. (I'll use "edit" to include "adding text" i.e. "inserting" something that wasn't there previously, "amending text" which includes both "deleting text" and "deleting text and replacing with new text."
3) But, DC uses bold in numerous sections of his blog. Have I misunderstood that the bold text in the way back machine extract are the identified edits?
4) As above, there are numerous sections of his blog that uses bold text. Are the way back machine identified edits the only edits, or are there other edits in DC's blog? I'm just seeking to establish if there are other edits, or if way back machine has only identified two edits - and we can conclude that these are the only edits? (Would we get the same results if "way back" is repeated)?
5) I have copy/pasted from DC's blog in the order that the extracts appear in the blog. I notice differences with way back image. The sentence: ‘But mandatory incident reporting to FSAP and NIH actually does provide sufficient data to quantify human error in BSL3 biocontainment labs… appears only once in my extract. The same sentence appears on both way back images. The sentence: ‘The GAO identified three recent releases of Ebola and Marburg viruses from BSL4 to lower containment labs due to incomplete inactivation. doesn't appear in way back image. The words "[an example]" appear on the way back image - with the square brackets. These words don't appear on DC's blog. (There is a difference in order between the 2 sections in the way back image(s) and the order the sections appear in DC's blog. I'm assuming that that is only down to the ordering of way back image(s)).
6) Way back machine banner heading shows "16 captures" "31 March 2019 - 16 May 2020" and Apr 09 2020 and May 03 2020 (both in inverse yellow on black). Am I correct to understand these as "16 edits have been identified" from the original blog? and the two images shown are edits that were made on Apr 09 and May 03, respectively?
7) The blog concerns the title of the blog, security of labs that are working with pathogens. DC is questioning the security of these bio-labs and proposing, with examples, that human error can occur and bio-labs BSL3 and BSL4 labs are a risk.
Here you go Paul, I've made it really simple for you. The link below shows you side by side what the blog contained on the 9th April 2019 and on the 3rd of May. You can ignore bold text because that is how it was written by Cummings.

https://web.archive.org/web/diff/202004 ... smissible/

You can see the blogs are word for word the same until we get to a certain point. The left blog highlights a word in yellow to show you where it changes and then on the right blog all the new text that wasn't there in April is clearly highlighted in blue

This blue text is the only time that Cummings references Coronavirus so it was not originally in his blog. Cummings in his statement claimed he predicted a Coronavirus but if I was able to update a post I made in 2019 a month ago I reckon I could predict a lot of things.

The rest of his blog and what is right or wrong about it isnt in question. All that is in question is that claiming to have called out Coronvirus in a 2019 blog in a national address to the public which was meant to be him being open and honest about himself when in fact he had added the text around Coronavirus in the last month is a lie and in the circumstances disgraceful behaviour

So stop trying to deflect and trying to make a conversation about the other complexities with the blog and either defend his actions of changing the blog and lying to the nation or condemn it. It really is that simple
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 8:02 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:48 pm
Are you trying to argue that Cummings didn't add that paragraph on coronavirus in April this year?
I think he's trying to post a load of waffle so he doesn't even have to address the actual question about the addition of the paragraph.

Watching DSR and Paul over the last few days has been like having our very own poundshop Dom's on this forum. All Paul had to do was say what an idiot or even just not get involved and instead he has ended up showing everyone what a disingenuous person he really is
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by android » Tue May 26, 2020 8:07 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 pm
Yes I dont think there are people making copies of tweets by normal bods lke me and you just yet!!!

I don't think that is the reason for pseudonyms at all. The pseudonyms tend to be a combination of people who just like to be private and anonymous (which I can understand) and those who use platforms like Twitter to be vile and abusive and so have to hide behind a fake identity

As regards the blog then its not about people like Cummings not being aware as Im sure if they stopped and thought for a moment they are more than clever enough. The issue is that they are used to lying and actual getting cheered on for their lies by people more concerned about winning than the truth and whats right. This in turn leads to a sheer arrogance in people like Cummings and that leads to being caught out as he has been in this case

You can choose to read what you like but there is no justifiable reason for Cummings editing his 2019 blog in the way he did since his Durham trip but for the use to lie and misrepresent himself over.

So come Paul please read it and condemn his actions. You say you are fair and balanced but I cant honestly remember you once agreeing with any criticisms of the Tory Govt and their actions.

I rarely engage in conversation with you cos I see you as completely disingenuous and not interested in trying to find the truth but more trying to spin it your way so show me for once that you are willing to agree with criticism of the Tory's rather than just changing the subject into something completely different
Your attack on Paul Waine is a low blow DA, although it did get you some likes from the gang, which seems a bit sad. PW is one of the best and most informative posters and always comes across as interested in the truth on a wide range of topics. A lot like you really but with a different political opinion.

Anyway, here's a test for the genuine open mindedness you claim. Cummings blog was based on and quoted at length a scientific article about pandemic virus risk. I think he originally highlighted ebola and bird flu, I'm guessing because they were presumably more attention grabbing at the time. But the linked article did also discuss coronaviruses in exactly the same context. The article & blog were not about one virus versus another - it was about the risk of any of these viruses escaping and creating a major pandemic. As you reported, in April he seems to have added the coronavirus example to the body of his blog. Perhaps he was trying to make himself look even cleverer (too clever by half) or, if he is anywhere near as machiavellian as has been made out, I wouldn't be surprised if he did it on purpose to draw attention to the fact that he had written about virus pandemic risks early last year. But is it enough to call his comment about this yesterday a lie?
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by martin_p » Tue May 26, 2020 8:11 pm

android wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:07 pm
Your attack on Paul Waine is a low blow DA, although it did get you some likes from the gang, which seems a bit sad. PW is one of the best and most informative posters and always comes across as interested in the truth on a wide range of topics. A lot like you really but with a different political opinion.

Anyway, here's a test for the genuine open mindedness you claim. Cummings blog was based on and quoted at length a scientific article about pandemic virus risk. I think he originally highlighted ebola and bird flu, I'm guessing because they were presumably more attention grabbing at the time. But the linked article did also discuss coronaviruses in exactly the same context. The article & blog were not about one virus versus another - it was about the risk of any of these viruses escaping and creating a major pandemic. As you reported, in April he seems to have added the coronavirus example to the body of his blog. Perhaps he was trying to make himself look even cleverer (too clever by half) or, if he is anywhere near as machiavellian as has been made out, I wouldn't be surprised if he did it on purpose to draw attention to the fact that he had written about virus pandemic risks early last year. But is it enough to call his comment about this yesterday a lie?
Are you saying it was true he’d written about coronavirus in 2019?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 8:20 pm

android wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:07 pm
Your attack on Paul Waine is a low blow DA, although it did get you some likes from the gang, which seems a bit sad. PW is one of the best and most informative posters and always comes across as interested in the truth on a wide range of topics. A lot like you really but with a different political opinion.
Sorry but you are way off with your appraisal and the only truth he is interested in is one that supports his own political views and he will do what ever he can to deflect, disrupt and discredit any discussion where his political viewpoint is being shown to be in the wrong or problematic.

There are a fair few posters with different views to me who I enjoy discussing and even some who I constantly disagree and argue with but as long as they are being truthful and arguing in good faith I am happy.

I'll give you an example that yesterday morning I posted showing all the Tory MPs tweeting out a copy and paste job having a go at them. Later that day I saw Labour MPs doing similar and posted that having a go at Labour. That is something you will not see someone like Paul do and as I have said I have never even seen him accept any criticism of the Torys and will always try and make an excuse. If that in your opinion is the action of someone who comes across as always interested in the truth then that says more about you than me
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Stayingup » Tue May 26, 2020 8:22 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:04 pm
I wouldn't support any politician who told me barefaced lies. The sheer contempt Cummings and the government have shown to the public in this incident is shameful.

Like I say, Damo, you have ridiculously low standards.
He's like Blair and Cameron then. Ref Iraq. Of course you certainly couldn't support them could you?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue May 26, 2020 8:31 pm

Just to clarify what Cummings said yesterday

“Only last year I wrote explicitly about the danger of coronaviruses”.

As Faisal Islam notes

"he literally told us to read his blog about his warnings on this topic - but the only warning on his blog I can find is re protecting biolabs from attack, not eg wet markets, or a virus with no vaccine or treatments"

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Damo » Tue May 26, 2020 8:44 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:39 pm
Go on then. Please search my posts to find instances of me defending any politician for lying.

You think its fine that Cummings and Johnson have blatantly lied to the public and you are defending them, even reveling in the fact that they've got the public's back up by doing so. By default, that means you have lower standards than me.
Well I didnt actually say you defended anyone. I said you failed to criticise Corbyn, yet you want to crucify Cummings.
But you openly admit to voting for Corbyn, so that is a fair endorsement that you actually dont really care about lying politicians, unless you don't really like them in the first place.
Oh, and I only used Corbyn as an example because I know you support him. I'm not singling him out. My view is that the vast majority of them lie.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 8:46 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:48 pm
Are you trying to argue that Cummings didn't add that paragraph on coronavirus in April this year?
No, just aiming to be sure I understand what way back machine is telling us was edited/added.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Rileybobs » Tue May 26, 2020 8:49 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:22 pm
He's like Blair and Cameron then. Ref Iraq. Of course you certainly couldn't support them could you?
Of course I couldn’t support Blair after the Iraq revelations. What makes you think I could? Not sure what particular incident you’re referring to with Cameron.

And just to be clear, voting for a party in an election isn’t the same as supporting the leader of that party. This is what happens when people like Damo muddy the waters, it detracts from the point. If you had to vote between having your head chopped off or your hand chopped off I’m guessing you’d vote for the latter (although I am starting to wonder with some on here).

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by martin_p » Tue May 26, 2020 8:51 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:46 pm
No, just aiming to be sure I understand what way back machine is telling us was edited/added.
So now you know what was edited what is your view on what Cummings said about it yesterday?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by randomclaret2 » Tue May 26, 2020 8:54 pm

Church of England Bishops' views being reported by the BBC ? Ive heard it all now. 50 years of either being mocked or ignored...and now theyre suddenly quote worthy ? Strange times indeed...

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Rileybobs » Tue May 26, 2020 9:05 pm

Damo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:44 pm
Well I didnt actually say you defended anyone. I said you failed to criticise Corbyn, yet you want to crucify Cummings.
But you openly admit to voting for Corbyn, so that is a fair endorsement that you actually dont really care about lying politicians, unless you don't really like them in the first place.
Oh, and I only used Corbyn as an example because I know you support him. I'm not singling him out. My view is that the vast majority of them lie.
I don’t want to crucify Cummings. I don’t think I’ve even said how I feel he should be reprimanded. My contributions to this thread have been asking people how they can defend his actions and subsequent lies. FWIW, a simple and humble apology probably would have sufficed in the first instance from my point of view. The barefaced lying was a step too far and worse than the initial act.

Secondly, I have never voted for Corbyn. In the last GE I voted for my local Labour candidate. I have already told you that I didn’t support Corbyn, and the very fact that he was the leader of the Labour Party made my decision at the last GE a difficult one. So please stop making things up.

But in any case, as I’ve just pointed out to stayingup, voting for one party in a two horse race is absolutely not showing support for that party. Surely you can see that?

For me this has absolutely nothing to do with the party in power and it has even less than nothing to do with Brexit. Just because I didn’t come on here and criticise Corbyn taking a photo sat on a train floor doesn’t mean I agreed with it. If he had come out to face the public and made a ridiculous cock and bull story about why he did so, whilst treating the general public with utter contempt, then I’m pretty sure I would have.
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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Damo » Tue May 26, 2020 9:05 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:49 pm
Of course I couldn’t support Blair after the Iraq revelations. What makes you think I could? Not sure what particular incident you’re referring to with Cameron.

And just to be clear, voting for a party in an election isn’t the same as supporting the leader of that party. This is what happens when people like Damo muddy the waters, it detracts from the point. If you had to vote between having your head chopped off or your hand chopped off I’m guessing you’d vote for the latter (although I am starting to wonder with some on here).
They are forcing people to vote now are they?

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Greenmile » Tue May 26, 2020 9:08 pm

Damo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:05 pm
They are forcing people to vote now are they?
A lot of people view voting as their civic duty, even if they’re not keen on any of the options on offer.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Spiral » Tue May 26, 2020 9:09 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:54 pm
Church of England Bishops' views being reported by the BBC ? Ive heard it all now. 50 years of either being mocked or ignored...and now theyre suddenly quote worthy ? Strange times indeed...
It is probably newsworthy to report on John Inge, the Bishop of Worcester who was told 'stay out of politics or we’ll kill you', for no other reason than to bear witness to the monumentally bone-headed ignorance of telling a man who has sat in the Lords since 2012 to stay out of politics.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Buxtonclaret » Tue May 26, 2020 9:10 pm

This is an interesting read.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52808059


Coming across as more devious by the day.
Last edited by Buxtonclaret on Tue May 26, 2020 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 26, 2020 9:11 pm

Damo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:44 pm
Well I didnt actually say you defended anyone. I said you failed to criticise Corbyn, yet you want to crucify Cummings.
But you openly admit to voting for Corbyn, so that is a fair endorsement that you actually dont really care about lying politicians, unless you don't really like them in the first place.
Oh, and I only used Corbyn as an example because I know you support him. I'm not singling him out. My view is that the vast majority of them lie.
I’ll bite. What did Corbyn lie about?

I think the problem the Tories have, and this predates the massive liar that Is Johnson, is it’s a default setting for them. When parties go down this route - and Labour has before - it doesn’t end well.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by tiger76 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:13 pm

I'm baffled by the amount of people who view this through party political eyes.

It's not about left and right it's about right and wrong.

Why are so many traditional Conservatives condemning Dominic Cummings because they know he's in the wrong and his actions are damaging both for the country and their party.

If this government aren't careful they'll quickly find themselves plunging in the polls,and becoming increasingly lampooned.

5 days have been wasted on all this Cummings malarkey,precisely at the time when all the government's attention should be focused on laying out their preparations for easing lockdown.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Greenmile » Tue May 26, 2020 9:18 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:11 pm
I’ll bite. What did Corbyn lie about?

I think the problem the Tories have, and this predates the massive liar that Is Johnson, is it’s a default setting for them. When parties go down this route - and Labour has before - it doesn’t end well.
He lied about how many spare seats there were on a train once.

Which, as any fule no, is just as bad as lying about breaking laws / guidelines designed (partly by the liar themself) to protect the health of the population in the midst of a pandemic.

Worse if anything, since the train story failed to “trigger the libs” in a manner which makes Damo’s life worth living for him.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by nil_desperandum » Tue May 26, 2020 9:20 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:54 pm
Church of England Bishops' views being reported by the BBC ? Ive heard it all now. 50 years of either being mocked or ignored...and now theyre suddenly quote worthy ? Strange times indeed...
The church / churches have been incredibly supportive of the government throughout. Without argument closing church buildings entirely and not even holding funeral services. This is unprecedented, since freedom of worship - and how we worship -has always been a fundamental of our society. It has upset a great many.
So it's hardly a surprise that the Bishops would be unhappy at Cummings behaviour and would speak out on behalf of all families - like ours - that have been unable to visit the sick and dying and to attend funerals.
In my opinion the Bishops would be failing their "flock" if they didn't speak out.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by ksrclaret » Tue May 26, 2020 9:24 pm


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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by IanMcL » Tue May 26, 2020 9:28 pm

Evidently, on the day of his trip to Barnard Castle, GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), agreeded a partnership deal with Sanofi, a French company, to produce a vaccine, using Gov funding.

GSK are in Barnard Castle.

Funny that...

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Rileybobs » Tue May 26, 2020 9:30 pm

Damo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:05 pm
They are forcing people to vote now are they?
You’re losing your way.

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Re: Dominic Cummings

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 26, 2020 9:31 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:55 pm
Here you go Paul, I've made it really simple for you. The link below shows you side by side what the blog contained on the 9th April 2019 and on the 3rd of May. You can ignore bold text because that is how it was written by Cummings.

https://web.archive.org/web/diff/202004 ... smissible/

You can see the blogs are word for word the same until we get to a certain point. The left blog highlights a word in yellow to show you where it changes and then on the right blog all the new text that wasn't there in April is clearly highlighted in blue

This blue text is the only time that Cummings references Coronavirus so it was not originally in his blog. Cummings in his statement claimed he predicted a Coronavirus but if I was able to update a post I made in 2019 a month ago I reckon I could predict a lot of things.

The rest of his blog and what is right or wrong about it isnt in question. All that is in question is that claiming to have called out Coronvirus in a 2019 blog in a national address to the public which was meant to be him being open and honest about himself when in fact he had added the text around Coronavirus in the last month is a lie and in the circumstances disgraceful behaviour

So stop trying to deflect and trying to make a conversation about the other complexities with the blog and either defend his actions of changing the blog and lying to the nation or condemn it. It really is that simple
Thanks, DA. I'd noticed that DC used a lot of bold text. Appreciate your further details on what way back machine is telling us.

Hmm, when I go to the link all way back gives me is a blank page. I guess I need to run a query on DC's blog. I'm going to have to leave that until later.

I'm happy to agree that coronavirus wasn't in the original. DC quotes the anthrax example from the GAO report - I assume that was in the original and then later inserts "The report describes yet another well-publicized incident in China...." If we hadn't got a coronavirus crisis on-going now - and it originated in China - I can see why this second example wouldn't have been mentioned in the original 2019 blog.

Do we know "the GAO report" he mentions? DC doesn't appear to include any references or links (unless I'm missing them).

Did DC say he wrote about "coronavirus" in 2019, or did he say he wrote about pandemics? It's a pity one of the journos wasn't able to ask "when was that?" Or, "which blog was that?" I'm not even sure the blog we are looking at is about pandemics, the subject is bio-security of BSL3/4 labs.

However, my memory (I could be wrong) is that DC was responding to the a lot of the previous comments about him and seeking to offer something that shows that "he is a guy that cares about people...." I didn't get the impression that these were part of his prepared remarks. So, also don't make a link between his blog, including his coronavirus edit and his very unusual press conference yesterday afternoon.

I know you will disagree. If I was on the jury I'd be in the "not guilty" of this specific charge of "preparing and executing a premeditated lie."

It was interesting looking at DC's blog. He's not going to have many friends in "the establishment" with the challenging stuff he writes.

Effective action #4b: ‘Expertise’, prediction and noise, from the NHS killing people to Brexit - part of his Unrecognised Simplicities of Effective Action series confirms he's not a Conservative.

I read a BBC profile of DC earlier today. They credit DC with the "levelling up" agenda - and moving money and government out of London. I didn't know that.

Locked