Dominic Cummings

[Zlatan]

I'm now a bit curious as to what Dominic Cummings knows that Boris actually believes could make us think worse of him.

As I'm not sure I believe the reports of the night with the sheep, the swan and the Samoan stripper.

I was trying to raise that with the previous post Frank (quoted below - removed the text so it doesn't look awful but the link to it is there on the up arrow), it certainly will come out in the wash - trouble is, that will be too late for managing the Covid-19 crisis...

[Spijed]

The track and trace system has clearly been rushed through, starting today to distract from the Cummings saga.

[Devils_Advocate]

I was trying to raise that with the previous post Frank (quoted below - removed the text so it doesn't look awful but the link to it is there on the up arrow), it certainly will come out in the wash - trouble is, that will be too late for managing the Covid-19 crisis...

I gave my take on this a couple of days ago and rather than repeating it and making a new long post you can see it on page 4 of this thread as per this link

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47404&p=1281951&hil ... s#p1281951

[tiger76]

I don’t find it particularly edifying the playbook used by this bunch of advisors to double down on every crisis or mistake. Whether it is the bus,Turkey, testing or lockdown breaches they believe that by doubling down on it rather than apologising they will win.

It has to be said though that so far, they are right. But it fuels a culture where we don’t apologise and makes politics a Punch and Judy show.

Cummings knows he messed up (albeit while under huge stress), but instead of saying sorry the playbook is to double down, so I suspect there are a few untruths in there - did he really not think his wife had Covid, did he not fill up on the way up, did the child not go to the loo, was Barnard Castle not for a quick trip out for his wife’s birthday, etc?

He’s probably right - if he had apologised he would now be toast, and Johnson’s government terribly weakened at a critical time. But just like the bus (another mistake he probably wishes in hindsight he hadn’t made) it leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

Personally, I prefer to focus on the big picture, which is that the lockdown was probably overcooked anyway due to worldwide herd mentality, and the constant gotcha culture will end up with us starved of the best brains at the times they are most needed.

Cummings account has more holes in it than Blackburn,but i suspect your right once he and the government choose to go down the cover up route one lie led to another and so on.

If Dominic Cummings is the best brains in the government then it speaks volumes for the lack of talent in the cabinet.

Is it not worrying that the PM is so reliant on one man,what happens if Dominic Cummings get run over by a bus tomorrow(and before anyone piles in i'm not suggesting that will occur)

Whatever anyone's viewpoint on Cummings this incident,and more importantly the government's response have diluted the message at a critical phase,and that's not good for the government or more importantly the country.

What evidence do you have to support the worldwide herd mentality argument,i don't see anywhere that's practising that apart from perhaps Brazil and to a lesser extent the US,and they're both run by idiots.

[Rileybobs]

WTF? Am I missing something obvious here/ whoosh?

It was a rather poor attempt on my part to demonstrate how irrelevant the actions of Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair, David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn are when we’re discussing an entirely different event. I used OJ Simpson as the totally irrelevant analogy.

[Zlatan]

I gave my take on this a couple of days ago and rather than repeating it and making a new long post you can see it on page 4 of this thread as per this link

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47404&p=1281951&hil ... s#p1281951

that was also a fair assessment of the situation DA

[tiger76]

It was a rather poor attempt on my part to demonstrate how irrelevant the actions of Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair, David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn are when we’re discussing an entirely different event. I used OJ Simpson as the totally irrelevant analogy.

No that's fair enough i do find it amusing how the defenders of Dominic Cummings constantly refer to Alistair Campbell and the dodgy dossier,yes Campbell's actions were wrong and he subsequently resigned i await on Mr Cummings doing likewise.

[IanMcL]

#DominatingDomCummingsOUT
#DominicCummingsOUT
#CumminsOUT
#JohnsonOUT
#ToriesOUT

Thoughts for the year.

[tiger76]

#DominatingDomCummingsOUT
#DominicCummingsOUT
#CumminsOUT
#JohnsonOUT
#ToriesOUT

Thoughts for the year.

You'll have a hard task getting the Conservatives out given they've just won an 80 seat majority,however i'd offer long odds against Cummings & Johnson surviving this parliamentary term,and you can probably add a few more cabinet ministers to that Gove,Hancock & Patel at a guess.

I know it's slightly off topic,but i'd also throw in the probability of Scotland voting to leave the UK if they get the chance,this is perhaps why most senior Scottish Tories are vocally calling for Cummings to go,they'll be well aware of the damage this farce could do to their electoral prospects,and unlike their WM counterparts they do have to face the electorate in the next 12 months.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ah, some classic Wrongo deflection.

Obviously one mans "deflection" is another man's perspective!

Cummings - guilty of protecting his chlid.

Campbell- instrumental in the deaths of 100s of thousands of iraqi children's deaths.

[RingoMcCartney]

You’re certainly ’muddled’. It’s been explained to you what the difference between the messages at the time Cummings was in Durham and now is, so I won’t do it again.

And if ever there was someone who went from being an expert in free trade agreements, the import and export of goods, tariffs , and customs unions. And now, apparently , fast tracked through medical school and are now leading virologisty and epidemiology specialist it's our very own Marty!

[evensteadiereddie]

In other words, "Yes, you're right, Martin."

[martin_p]

And if ever there was someone who went from being an expert in free trade agreements, the import and export of goods, tariffs , and customs unions. And now, apparently , fast tracked through medical school and are now leading virologisty and epidemiology specialist it's our very own Marty!

What have any of those things got to do with the ability to understand what ‘stay at home’ means?

Oh, and if you think putting your child in a car and driving 25 miles when you’re not sure if you’re safe to drive is ‘protecting’ your child then we clearly have very different parenting styles and will have to agree to disagree.

[Burnley Ace]

Have Durham Police put this into perspective? Justified in travelling to Durham, a minor breach travelling to Barnard Castle that warrants no further action.

(According to Guardian report of Telegraph report)

[Grumps]

Have Durham Police put this into perspective? Justified in travelling to Durham, a minor breach travelling to Barnard Castle that warrants no further action.

(According to Guardian report of Telegraph report)

That'll send some on here into meltdown if true

[martin_p]

Have Durham Police put this into perspective? Justified in travelling to Durham, a minor breach travelling to Barnard Castle that warrants no further action.

(According to Guardian report of Telegraph report)

So a bit like Neil Ferguson then, no action was taken after he broke lockdown rules either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52562383

Durham police have confirmed that Cummings has broken lockdown rules so he should do the same as Ferguson and resign. After all all the senior government ministers and the PM agreed that resigning was the right thing to do with Ferguson, even though police took no action. Surely a different response to an identical situation would be hypocrisy?

[Spijed]

Have Durham Police put this into perspective? Justified in travelling to Durham, a minor breach travelling to Barnard Castle that warrants no further action.

(According to Guardian report of Telegraph report)

Which means the police are legally powerless to stop anyone with children from visiting Barnard castle unlimited times for whatever reason given.

[Swizzlestick]

So a bit like Neil Ferguson then, no action was taken after he broke lockdown rules either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52562383

Durham police have confirmed that Cummings has broken lockdown rules so he should do the same as Ferguson and resign. After all all the senior government ministers and the PM agreed that resigning was the right thing to do with Ferguson, even though police took no action. Surely a different response to an identical situation would be hypocrisy?

And that’s the word - undermining. He just showed more integrity by actually resigning.

All this has done is shown that Cummings lied again when he claimed to have behaved ‘lawfully’.

This opens up a huge can of worms re the Attorney General’s tweet the other day.

[Swizzlestick]

I often wonder too, if that eye witness had not seen him at Barnard Castle (who was pilloried by the way) whether he’d have wriggled out of this.

[Lord Beamish]

I suspect a lot of his apologists are going to jump on the “minor” whilst ignoring the “offence”. Cummings’ and the Government’s response has been that he has done “nothing wrong”. The Police think differently.

Neil Ferguson was forced to resign for something very similar, whist Dominic Cummings gets a ring of steel around him and practically the entire Cabinet from the PM downwards completely sacrificing their entire credibility to defend him.

[Grumps]

And that’s the word - undermining. He just showed more integrity by actually resigning.

All this has done is shown that Cummings lied again when he claimed to have behaved ‘lawfully’.

This opens up a huge can of worms viz the Attorney General’s tweet the other day.

He did act lawfully in one trip

[Burnley Ace]

So a bit like Neil Ferguson then, no action was taken after he broke lockdown rules either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52562383
Surely a different response to an identical situation would be hypocrisy?

Only if you think having your mistress over for a night is the same as driving through a town in your car. Perhaps there might be a different response if Kinnock and Ali et al all resigned. Even the police acknowledged their was no breach of social distancing. Will the police now use ANPR to investigate all allegations of people making unnecessary journeys or is it one rule to investigate Cummings and another for everyone else?

[TVC15]

He claimed to act lawfully in the “trips” he made that were under scrutiny - he is therefore wrong and like the others should be sacked or resign himself.
He’s tried to be clever in the excuses he made for the trip and he’s clever enough to use language that shows he can’t be proven to be lying (yet).
It’s one of those Bill Clinton / Harry Redknapp cases where everyone knows he is lying.

But irrespective it’s now been confirmed by the police he breached the guidelines / law and given his position he should walk....which I expect him to on the basis that he is now a real liability for BJ and Hancock in trying to persuade people to comply with lockdown and the new initiative launched today.

[Spijed]

The Telegraph has learned that an investigation by Durham Police has concluded he did commit a “minor breach” of the guidelines when he drove to Barnard Castle on April 12.
However the force, which according to the most recent data, has issued 137 fines for lockdown breaches, said it would not be taking any further action against Mr Cummings.

So why have 137 other people been issued with fines?

[mdd2]

The Police have said he might have breached lockdown with trip to B Castle but didn’t appear to break social distancing
Trip from London did not break the rules
Move on
Whatever folk think abou this unlike some of the footballers with their activities it does not appear he broke social distancing which is the key to keeping this virus under control
Time to move on
Boris seems to have more balls than N Sturgeon whose medic too did not break social distancing so IMP no need to resign

[martin_p]

Only if you think having your mistress over for a night is the same as driving through a town in your car. Perhaps there might be a different response if Kinnock and Ali et al all resigned.

In terms of the law broken they are the same yes.

[martin_p]

The Telegraph has learned that an investigation by Durham Police has concluded he did commit a “minor breach” of the guidelines when he drove to Barnard Castle on April 12.
However the force, which according to the most recent data, has issued 137 fines for lockdown breaches, said it would not be taking any further action against Mr Cummings.

So why have 137 other people been issued with fines?

According to the statement they haven’t issued any retrospective fines so are treating Cummings no differently. If they’d stopped him on the day they’d have advised him to go back to Durham and if he’d have accepted that he was breaking lockdown and returned no further action would have been taken.

[Spijed]

Boris seems to have more balls than N Sturgeon whose medic too did not break social distancing so IMP no need to resign

The difference is Boris and Cummings clearly care more about poll ratings than the numbers of deaths.

[martin_p]

The Police have said he might have breached lockdown with trip to B Castle but didn’t appear to break social distancing
Trip from London did not break the rules
Move on
Whatever folk think abou this unlike some of the footballers with their activities it does not appear he broke social distancing which is the key to keeping this virus under control
Time to move on
Boris seems to have more balls than N Sturgeon whose medic too did not break social distancing so IMP no need to resign

You mean the same Boris that agreed Ferguson should resign?

[RingoMcCartney]

Any idea when the "newspapers" that claimed DC went back and forth to Durham . Will publish their embarrassing retraction and apologise for misleading their gullible ,easily lead left wing readership!?

See AndrewJB , look how easy it is !

[Swizzlestick]

The Police have said he might have breached lockdown with trip to B Castle but didn’t appear to break social distancing
Trip from London did not break the rules
Move on
Whatever folk think abou this unlike some of the footballers with their activities it does not appear he broke social distancing which is the key to keeping this virus under control
Time to move on
Boris seems to have more balls than N Sturgeon whose medic too did not break social distancing so IMP no need to resign

Not asking your closest adviser to resign is an interesting interpretation of showing ‘balls’. If anything, it demonstrates the exact opposite.

[Burnley Ace]

In terms of the law broken they are the same yes.

So someone who steals a mars bar is to be treated the same way as someone who steals the Crown Jewels? I must have missed your posts stating Kinnock and Ali must immediately resign, after all they are elected representatives and must be held to a higher standard? If an MP is caught speeding should they resign?

[martin_p]

So someone who steals a mars bar is to be treated the same way as someone who steals the Crown Jewels? I must have missed your posts stating Kinnock and Ali must immediately resign, after all they are elected representatives and must be held to a higher standard? If an MP is caught speeding should they resign?

Don’t know about the Ali one, but Kinnock was delivering groceries to his elderly parents and took the opportunity to sing happy birthday to his dad. Which rule did that break?

[martin_p]

So someone who steals a mars bar is to be treated the same way as someone who steals the Crown Jewels? I must have missed your posts stating Kinnock and Ali must immediately resign, after all they are elected representatives and must be held to a higher standard? If an MP is caught speeding should they resign?

No, because they carry different sentences. In both the Ferguson and Cummings cases the ‘sentence’ would be the same, a £60 fine.

[Spijed]

"As long as Cummings remains in his position, the public can have no confidence that this government is putting their collective interests above those of a few privileged individuals at the heart of power. Johnson looks startlingly unable to understand the sacrifices made by families up and down the country he leads. Those families at the very least deserved an apology from Cummings. To dismiss their anguish reveals a man astonishingly detached from reality. "

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... MugqyO5k3E

[Burnley Ace]

Sitting outside his fro t door eating cake and singing happy birthday- he didn’t just leave a bag of groceries on the doorstep.

Ali was at a funeral reception fo a constituent, with 100 other people, with no PPE, no assessment of the danger and no consideration to the risk.

[Swizzlestick]

Ali also apologised.

Who knows where we'd be if DC had done the same.

[Lord Beamish]

Ali also apologised.

Who knows where we'd be if DC had done the same.

Exactly. This is a mess entirely of DC’s making.

[Quickenthetempo]

I hope DC and Boris announce No deal this week to really wind the pant wetters up.

[Grumps]

Don’t know about the Ali one, but Kinnock was delivering groceries to his elderly parents and took the opportunity to sing happy birthday to his dad. Which rule did that break?

Using the argument many made regarding Cummings, did they not have friends or relatives nearby who could have done their shopping?

[tiger76]

Not asking your closest adviser to resign is an interesting interpretation of showing ‘balls’. If anything, it demonstrates the exact opposite.

If the PM had any balls he wouldn't have to rely on Cummings to carry out the dirty work,i.e dealing with Sajid Javid, if you want to fire your chancellor then by all means do so,but do it as a man not a mouse.

This government's a joke,roll on the next election.

It does pose the what exactly will Dominic Cummings have to do to merit the sack.

[Grumps]

No, because they carry different sentences. In both the Ferguson and Cummings cases the ‘sentence’ would be the same, a £60 fine.

They don't actually, the maximum sentence for theft, is the same whatever you pinch... The punishment might change.

[android]

Interesting to see some of those keen to call Cummings a liar now not telling the truth about the police statement.

They say he "might" have committed a "minor breach". On the face of it it also seems very helpful to Cummings that they have specifically cleared him of any breach of the regulations regarding his isolation in Durham. Certainly a very different take on it to Emily Maitlis.

Best not to get carried away perhaps, as Durham police have form for changing their statements.

[martin_p]

They don't actually, the maximum sentence for theft, is the same whatever you pinch... The punishment might change.

Ok, well the ‘punishment’ is the same for the two lockdown breaches, that was my point.

[Zlatan]

I hope DC and Boris announce No deal this week to really wind the pant wetters up.

If you think my dislike of Cummings and what he did is related to Brexit, you’re mistaken. I can’t abide someone like Cummings seeming themselves to be above the law, that is what I have an issue with.

He’s a liar and a charlatan and he’s also pulling all the strings, our democracy is in jeopardy but that’s OK for some people.

[martin_p]

Using the argument many made regarding Cummings, did they not have friends or relatives nearby who could have done their shopping?

I don’t know, but this is just the usual ‘what about’ argument used to try and deflect from the main argument. Neither Kinnock or Ali are part of the government and that’s the main point here about why Cummings and Ferguson should be treated the same. They were both part of defining the lockdown measures they broke and that’s why they both have a responsibility to do the right thing and resign.

[Devils_Advocate]

Ferguson didn't leave his home but allowed his girlfriend from another household in to his house. Neither were showing symptoms for Covid but nevertheless its against the rules

Cummings went home to see his sick wife showing Covid symptoms and knowingly went back into his place of work which again is also against the rules

Even forgetting about the whole Durham episode I know which one I see as more reckless and more likely to be a health risk and it ain't shagger Fergusons

[tiger76]

"As long as Cummings remains in his position, the public can have no confidence that this government is putting their collective interests above those of a few privileged individuals at the heart of power. Johnson looks startlingly unable to understand the sacrifices made by families up and down the country he leads. Those families at the very least deserved an apology from Cummings. To dismiss their anguish reveals a man astonishingly detached from reality. "

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... MugqyO5k3E

But Spijed this is the people's government you know the one who understands the common man and woman.

Clearly the Conservatives are willing to hand the next election to Labour,that's fine i can live with Keir Starmer's Labour in Downing Street.

He also obviously doesn't give a hoot what his own backbenchers think either,i'd be careful how much he annoys them if he doesn't want any rebellions.

[Grumps]

I don’t know, but this is just the usual ‘what about’ argument used to try and deflect from the main argument. Neither Kinnock or Ali are part of the government and that’s the main point here about why Cummings and Ferguson should be treated the same. They were both part of defining the lockdown measures they broke and that’s why they both have a responsibility to do the right thing and resign.

Talk about being blinkered

[martin_p]

Talk about being blinkered

So you think anyone not in government should have to resign their job if they break lockdown?