"Antifa" declared a terrorist organisation

[Devils_Advocate]

Terrorism
unlawfully using violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
"a terrorist organization"

Sound like an EDL or UKIP march

[AlargeClaret]

While antifa have taken full advantage of the civil disorder and have contributed to it considerably ,branding this rag tag “ arrive n drive” mob of awkward teens,”anarchists” and friendless losers as a “ terrorist organisation” is a touch OTT. If this had happened in the UK we’d go to huge lengths to find and convict them and I hope America does the same to this odious bunch and indeed every looter and those blatantly inciting and using violence

[Devils_Advocate]

Trump deployed tear-gas, rubber bullets and military personnel on a group of peaceful protesters outside the White House so he could cross the street for a photo op.

Add him to the list of out of control violent sc*m that needs locking up as part of this disorder

[aggi]

I think someone else on here has mentioned it but the likely result of antifa being declared a terrorist organisation will be that it will leave a nice grey area to convict or strip away the rights of those protesting.

It will be interesting to see what the burden of proof will be to convict someone of being antifa.

[Damo]

That looks like it’s just a list of journalists who are sympathetic to the antifa cause (ie anti-fascism). How many of the names in that article have “beaten up people they disagree with”?

Also, Quilette?? Is that really where you get your info from?

Theres more than just journalist's mentioned in that article, if you read it properly, Luis Marquez is named as an antifa leader for example.
As for Quilette, I'm not familiar with it, but I did have a quick look to see if it was linked to the far right, but couldnt find anything like that. I'm happy to take your word if you can tell me what the problem is with it

[mkmel]

Trump deployed tear-gas, rubber bullets and military personnel on a group of peaceful protesters outside the White House so he could cross the street for a photo op.

Add him to the list of out of control violent sc*m that needs locking up as part of this disorder

Trump really is a disgusting and dangerous individual

[Greenmile]

Theres more than just journalist's mentioned in that article, if you read it properly, Luis Marquez is named as an antifa leader for example.
As for Quilette, I'm not familiar with it, but I did have a quick look to see if it was linked to the far right, but couldnt find anything like that. I'm happy to take your word if you can tell me what the problem is with it

Happy to admit I only skim-read it this morning, but yeah, Quilette is pretty dubious, if not exactly “far right”

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quillette/

https://www.thenation.com/article/archi ... ist-creep/

[Swizzlestick]

“Associate Editor - Toby Young”

[ecc]

Hi rowls,

Did you really write this?


"I refuse to have my opinions and world-views narrowed and limited to binary choices."

[AndrewJB]

If you wear a mask, start bricking shop windows and then start looting legal businesses in the name of " Anti-Fascism ", then expect to be answering some questions !

The narrative begins with a person donning a uniform and murdering ethnic minority people. There’s obviously a problem in the US, and when sports stars protest peacefully, they lose their jobs, and the issue isn’t dealt with. I’ve seen quite a few people invoke MLK, but let’s not forget that his peaceful protest was met with state violence and murder.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inter ... 41757.html

[Damo]

Happy to admit I only skim-read it this morning, but yeah, Quilette is pretty dubious, if not exactly “far right”

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quillette/

https://www.thenation.com/article/archi ... ist-creep/

I did read "intellectual dark web" and thought it a bit dubious, but the description on wiki made it seem honest enough. I actually found that article on Twitter, following something quoted by the person DA told me to check out.
The article I posted is obviously quite clever, as it seemed like a self proclaiming prophecy, the way some people dismiss the article, and criticism of antifa.
I'm happy to take it with a pinch of salt now though, given the links you provided
All that said, I still think antifa has more structure than just a large collection of people with the same views.
They do have a flag and, seemingly a uniform. And there are plenty of social media groups to rally people and point them in certain directions.
I do agree too that they have a reasonable cause. I just cannot abide by the actions of some of the people who declare themselves as anti fascist. Antifa or whatever. The ones who destroy businesses, beat people up etc. Those people are as bad as the fascists who use exactly the same tactics to impose their views

[AndrewJB]

Terrorism
unlawfully using violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
"a terrorist organization"

Opposing fascism isn’t a political aim. Ask any of those remaining who served in the forces during WW2 whether their objection to Hitler was political and they’d probably laugh. Anti-fascism is a moral choice.

[Greenmile]

I did read "intellectual dark web" and thought it a bit dubious, but the description on wiki made it seem honest enough. I actually found that article on Twitter, following something quoted by the person DA told me to check out.
The article I posted is obviously quite clever, as it seemed like a self proclaiming prophecy, the way some people dismiss the article, and criticism of antifa.
I'm happy to take it with a pinch of salt now though, given the links you provided
All that said, I still think antifa has more structure than just a large collection of people with the same views.
They do have a flag and, seemingly a uniform. And there are plenty of social media groups to rally people and point them in certain directions.
I do agree too that they have a reasonable cause. I just cannot abide by the actions of some of the people who declare themselves as anti fascist. Antifa or whatever. The ones who destroy businesses, beat people up etc. Those people are as bad as the fascists who use exactly the same tactics to impose their views

At the risk of going all “no true Scotsman” on you, not all those people are antifa.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/t ... r-n1221456

[Colburn_Claret]

The narrative begins with a person donning a uniform and murdering ethnic minority people. There’s obviously a problem in the US, and when sports stars protest peacefully, they lose their jobs, and the issue isn’t dealt with. I’ve seen quite a few people invoke MLK, but let’s not forget that his peaceful protest was met with state violence and murder.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inter ... 41757.html

To be honest Andrew, and to others. A white Police Officer killed a black person during the course of an arrest. I haven't seen one iota of evidence that this was pre-meditated, not one iota of evidence that this was racially motivated.
There are far too many black people assaulted during arrests in America, but how many thousands of Black people are arrested, that aren't assaulted. It is obviously an issue that needs investigating and dealing with, there is an obvious mistrust between the law enforcement and the black community, but without knowing all the facts this officer has been tried and found guilty before he was even arrested himself. It is almost certain that he has absolutely no chance of having a fair trial, because in the American jury system, where jurors can be interviewed after the case, they would be frightened to find him anything other than guilty. AND before you say he is guilty, if a Black Officer, had done the same thing to a White culprit, it would have passed without the blinking of an eye. No murder charge, no protests, no riots, no looting.

[Rileybobs]

AND before you say he is guilty, if a Black Officer, had done the same thing to a White culprit, it would have passed without the blinking of an eye. No murder charge, no protests, no riots, no looting.

What a load of rubbish. If a black officer had done the same to a white person and this was caught on video you think it would have passed without the blinking of an eye? Why are you in denial about the very obvious problem with racism in the USA and particularly within the police force?

[aggi]

To be honest Andrew, and to others. A white Police Officer killed a black person during the course of an arrest. I haven't seen one iota of evidence that this was pre-meditated, not one iota of evidence that this was racially motivated.
There are far too many black people assaulted during arrests in America, but how many thousands of Black people are arrested, that aren't assaulted. It is obviously an issue that needs investigating and dealing with, there is an obvious mistrust between the law enforcement and the black community, but without knowing all the facts this officer has been tried and found guilty before he was even arrested himself. It is almost certain that he has absolutely no chance of having a fair trial, because in the American jury system, where jurors can be interviewed after the case, they would be frightened to find him anything other than guilty. AND before you say he is guilty, if a Black Officer, had done the same thing to a White culprit, it would have passed without the blinking of an eye. No murder charge, no protests, no riots, no looting.

I'm not sure where the legal bar for pre-meditation stands, whether continuing to kneel on someone's neck after you've been told they don't have a pulse pushes it from accidental to intentional for instance.

Maybe it wasn't specifically, racially motivated, but when you look at the big picture it's weird how many more black people are killed by the police in America than white people. There's definitely a huge statistical aberration with the common factor being race.

Your last theory would probably be more convincing if there hadn't been a black officer convicted of murder for shooting a white woman in Minneapolis last year (not long after the Philandro Castile case where an officer had been found not guilty of murder after shooting a black man, I'd also look at this case before being so definite he'll be found guilty ).

[Lord Rothbury]

What a load of rubbish. If a black officer had done the same to a white person and this was caught on video you think it would have passed without the blinking of an eye? Why are you in denial about the very obvious problem with racism in the USA and particularly within the police force?

Jeremy Mardis, aged 6 shot dead by black police officers 2015. No protest, no looting , no rioting. Make of that what you will.

[Rileybobs]

Jeremy Mardis, aged 6 shot dead by black police officers 2015. No protest, no looting , no rioting. Make of that what you will.

You mean the case where 2 police officers were given prison sentences? What do you make of that?

[Lord Rothbury]

Do you honestly think the officers involved in the killing of George Floyd will not be given prison sentences? Still no explanation for the lack of riotous behaviour, no worldwide condemnation of the officers involved, no mass protests. Maybe white lives do not matter as much as some people think.

[Colburn_Claret]

What a load of rubbish. If a black officer had done the same to a white person and this was caught on video you think it would have passed without the blinking of an eye? Why are you in denial about the very obvious problem with racism in the USA and particularly within the police force?

I'm not in denial, but there has to be an opposite, alternative point of view. This guy has obviously done wrong, intentionally or not, and should be dealt with honestly. From the reactions in the States, and over here, its looking less likely. I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but society as a whole has started this I'm more upset than you bandwagon, and this appears to be the latest cause celebre.
I accept that there's racism in the USA, as there is in every country to a lesser or greater extent. Is it more prevalent in their Police force, I doubt it, more likely that its easier to see in a public office.
There are many, many black Police Officers, so it's hard to imagine that racism is more prevalent in the force, without these coloured officers turning a blind eye to it.
The public conception, and trust are both very low, and this needs addressing urgently. Find out what the public want, but at the end of the day Police Officers of whatever colour, have to be able to arrest, and restrain if necessary, criminals of whatever colour. So I'm not trying to deny the issues, just get people to look at it more objectively than a pitchfork wielding mob.

[Damo]

I'm not sure where the legal bar for pre-meditation stands, whether continuing to kneel on someone's neck after you've been told they don't have a pulse pushes it from accidental to intentional for instance.

Maybe it wasn't specifically, racially motivated, but when you look at the big picture it's weird how many more black people are killed by the police in America than white people. There's definitely a huge statistical aberration with the common factor being race.

Your last theory would probably be more convincing if there hadn't been a black officer convicted of murder for shooting a white woman in Minneapolis last year (not long after the Philandro Castile case where an officer had been found not guilty of murder after shooting a black man, I'd also look at this case before being so definite he'll be found guilty ).

Out of interest, what are the statistics in regard to this? This is a genuine question because I want to counter something I saw yesterday that is probably manipulated or just plain wrong

[Greenmile]

Out of interest, what are the statistics in regard to this? This is a genuine question because I want to counter something I saw yesterday that is probably manipulated or just plain wrong

From the George Floyd thread :-

I don’t think that particular policeman got up thinking he was going to kill someone that day. I also don’t know if that particular policeman is racist. What people are protesting about is the institutional racism in the US police force.

If you want statistics then I’ll help;

12.6% of the USA fall into the Black or African American Category.
In 2019, 23% of people shot to death by the police were black.

16.3% of the USA fall into the Hispanic category.
In 2019, 16% of people shot to death by the police were Hispanic.

72.4% of the USA fall into the White category.
In 2019, 37% of people shot to search by the police were white.

So if you were a black person, in 2019 you were 4 times more likely to be shot by the police than a white person. But maybe some police are just useless.

[AndrewJB]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

Some stats on the surge in rightwing violence in the US.

[Colburn_Claret]

From the George Floyd thread :-

Those stats are worrying, but it could be misleading.
In America the gang culture, drug culture, gangsta boys tend to come from the ghettos, or projects. These places are predominantly black or ethnic areas. In this country its the housing estates that provide the gang cultures. In London they are mostly black, in Liverpool mostly white. If the crimewave is predominantly committed by people from these areas, then its stands to reason that the numbers of black people caught in this trap would be exponentially high. Rather than pinning it on racism, it could just as easily be pinned on poverty and the background you come from.
America has a lot to do to reverse the issues compounded with ghettos and the projects, just as we have a lot to do with sorting out some housing estates.

[Devils_Advocate]

If only someone could work out why the ghettos or projects are predominantly black and why they massively outstrip white people in terms of poverty and deprivation

You never know we might find out that the reasons behind black poverty, living conditions, crime, violence and suffering at the hands of the people paid to protect them is all linked to the same root cause

[Greenmile]

Those stats are worrying, but it could be misleading.
In America the gang culture, drug culture, gangsta boys tend to come from the ghettos, or projects. These places are predominantly black or ethnic areas. In this country its the housing estates that provide the gang cultures. In London they are mostly black, in Liverpool mostly white. If the crimewave is predominantly committed by people from these areas, then its stands to reason that the numbers of black people caught in this trap would be exponentially high. Rather than pinning it on racism, it could just as easily be pinned on poverty and the background you come from.
America has a lot to do to reverse the issues compounded with ghettos and the projects, just as we have a lot to do with sorting out some housing estates.

Not my stats - I was just helping out Damo with his question.

I do need to point out to you that the ghettos, projects, poverty etc can themselves be “pinned on racism” they are symptoms of an endemically racist system.

You seem to be trying really hard to put forward the argument that it’s the fault of black people that they keep being killed by the police. You might want to think a bit about what your motivation is for doing that.

[BurningBeard]

Apologies if already posted but the FBI have found no intelligence to suggest that antifa was involved in disorder...

https://www.thenation.com/article/activ ... fbi/tnamp/

[UpTheClaretsFCBK]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[aggi]

Those stats are worrying, but it could be misleading.
In America the gang culture, drug culture, gangsta boys tend to come from the ghettos, or projects. These places are predominantly black or ethnic areas. In this country its the housing estates that provide the gang cultures. In London they are mostly black, in Liverpool mostly white. If the crimewave is predominantly committed by people from these areas, then its stands to reason that the numbers of black people caught in this trap would be exponentially high. Rather than pinning it on racism, it could just as easily be pinned on poverty and the background you come from.
America has a lot to do to reverse the issues compounded with ghettos and the projects, just as we have a lot to do with sorting out some housing estates.

That is possible. Although obviously, as others have said, it then just moves the discussion on to why is this the case and from a police force that is institutionally racist to a country that's institutionally racist. The fundamental "black lives matter" issue is still the same.

[Colburn_Claret]

That is possible. Although obviously, as others have said, it then just moves the discussion on to why is this the case and from a police force that is institutionally racist to a country that's institutionally racist. The fundamental "black lives matter" issue is still the same.

I couldn't agree more, black lives do matter, but rather than throwing alleged racist slogans at the Police, which may or may not be true, it would serve the black community better to improve social housing, and properly fund the education systems in these areas. Gang cultures thrive in areas where youngsters feel disenfranchised by society.

[Greenmile]

I couldn't agree more, black lives do matter, but rather than throwing alleged racist slogans at the Police, which may or may not be true, it would serve the black community better to improve social housing, and properly fund the education systems in these areas. Gang cultures thrive in areas where youngsters feel disenfranchised by society.

It’s not the “black community”’s job to do that it’s the entire community’s. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you , the black community doesn’t have the wealth or power to implement the structural changes you’re suggesting.

I’ll ask again, why are you consistently putting the blame on black people for being attacked by the police? I don’t think you’re consciously racist, but you clearly have a subconscious prejudice that you need to address.

[Colburn_Claret]

Not my stats - I was just helping out Damo with his question.

I do need to point out to you that the ghettos, projects, poverty etc can themselves be “pinned on racism” they are symptoms of an endemically racist system.

You seem to be trying really hard to put forward the argument that it’s the fault of black people that they keep being killed by the police. You might want to think a bit about what your motivation is for doing that.

Not suggesting fault at all Greenmile, more that its an inevitable consequence of the circumstances, rather than a racist trait. I feel for black people anywhere who suffer racism. I've said many times, I hate racism with a passion, but that hatred doesn't blind me to individual events.

In the case of George Floyd its an Officer culpable for the death of a man he was arresting. There is many things about it that were wrong and he will pay the penalty for those mistakes, but as I said earlier, I havent seen any evidence that this was pre meditated or racist. I can understand the black communities frustration but the knee jerk, mob mentality reaction isn't serving justice.

[Greenmile]

Not suggesting fault at all Greenmile, more that its an inevitable consequence of the circumstances, rather than a racist trait. I feel for black people anywhere who suffer racism. I've said many times, I hate racism with a passion, but that hatred doesn't blind me to individual events.

In the case of George Floyd its an Officer culpable for the death of a man he was arresting. There is many things about it that were wrong and he will pay the penalty for those mistakes, but as I said earlier, I havent seen any evidence that this was pre meditated or racist. I can understand the black communities frustration but the knee jerk, mob mentality reaction isn't serving justice.

I’ve shared the stats (provided by Rileybobs) above, which show that police violence in the US is clearly racist. You dismissed them as “misleading”, on the basis that black people are more likely to commit crime because they are poorer (a symptom of a racist society).

For someone who “hates racism with a passion”, you’re putting a lot of effort into trying to deny its existence, blame black people for the brutality they suffer every day, and suggest that it’s their job to put it right. Feels like you’re a bit scared to confront the realities of the situation, perhaps because you don’t like what that will tell you about your cosy worldview.

As for “pre-meditated”, the murderer knelt on his neck for 9 minutes. Plenty of time to meditate on what he was doing.

[grapidianclaret]

Do you honestly think the officers involved in the killing of George Floyd will not be given prison sentences? Still no explanation for the lack of riotous behaviour, no worldwide condemnation of the officers involved, no mass protests. Maybe white lives do not matter as much as some people think.

All lives SHOULD matter, equally. That's the point. They don't. If you really believe that treatment of African Americans and Latinos and whites are the same in the USA you are living in a dream world

[grapidianclaret]

Not my stats - I was just helping out Damo with his question.

I do need to point out to you that the ghettos, projects, poverty etc can themselves be “pinned on racism” they are symptoms of an endemically racist system.

You seem to be trying really hard to put forward the argument that it’s the fault of black people that they keep being killed by the police. You might want to think a bit about what your motivation is for doing that.

Just want to reinforce the poverty/ endemic racism point. Schools in the USA are not treated equally. They are paid for by property tax revenue. The inner city schools are old and massively underfunded,the suburban schools are new and well funded.
The system does not allow for children to move school districts unless you move house. It's a system that reinforces the limited opportunities of non white kids.

[aggi]

I couldn't agree more, black lives do matter, but rather than throwing alleged racist slogans at the Police, which may or may not be true, it would serve the black community better to improve social housing, and properly fund the education systems in these areas. Gang cultures thrive in areas where youngsters feel disenfranchised by society.

I agree that it would be better if that happened and the likelihood is that the racism in the police force is just a proxy for the overall institutional racism. However, that isn't happening, there are still huge gaps between how white and black people are treated, and it's easier to protest against the visible institutions like the police rather than protest against everything.

[Greenmile]

Jeremy Mardis, aged 6 shot dead by black police officers 2015. No protest, no looting , no rioting. Make of that what you will.

How many black people have been killed by the police in the five years since that?

[Colburn_Claret]

It’s not the “black community”’s job to do that it’s the entire community’s. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you , the black community doesn’t have the wealth or power to implement the structural changes you’re suggesting.

I’ll ask again, why are you consistently putting the blame on black people for being attacked by the police? I don’t think you’re consciously racist, but you clearly have a subconscious prejudice that you need to address.

I don't think I do, I think others have a biased point of view, subconsciously.
You see a White Policeman using excess force on a Black victim.
I just see a Policeman using excess force on a criminal, who's the racist. I don't see the colours because everyone should be treated the same. If it transpires that this Officer was racist, and the act was deliberate then I'm all for throwing the book at him. It may be that this Officer is a good Police Officer who on this occasion showed a very poor lack of judgement with fatal consequences. He might hate racism just as much as you do. If that's the case he deserves to be punished, but does he deserve to be punished in order to satisfy the blood lust of the Black Community or to ease the guilty conscience of the White.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and making an example of him might help some people deal with it, but it doesn't solve any of the underlying issues.

I said previously I don't find fault with black people but circumstances can put them in the line of fire, such as the ghettos and projects.

If a housing estate in this country was 75% black, and the Police on that estate arrested 3 times as many black people as white, you and Dianne Abbott would say they are racist, I would say that they are the victim consequential circumstances and the Police are treating everybody the same.

[Greenmile]

I don't think I do, I think others have a biased point of view, subconsciously.
You see a White Policeman using excess force on a Black victim.
I just see a Policeman using excess force on a criminal, who's the racist. I don't see the colours because everyone should be treated the same. If it transpires that this Officer was racist, and the act was deliberate then I'm all for throwing the book at him. It may be that this Officer is a good Police Officer who on this occasion showed a very poor lack of judgement with fatal consequences. He might hate racism just as much as you do. If that's the case he deserves to be punished, but does he deserve to be punished in order to satisfy the blood lust of the Black Community or to ease the guilty conscience of the White.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and making an example of him might help some people deal with it, but it doesn't solve any of the underlying issues.

I said previously I don't find fault with black people but circumstances can put them in the line of fire, such as the ghettos and projects.

If a housing estate in this country was 75% black, and the Police on that estate arrested 3 times as many black people as white, you and Dianne Abbott would say they are racist, I would say that they are the victim consequential circumstances and the Police are treating everybody the same.

“I don’t see colour”

I give up. You just crack on thinking it’s everyone else who’s biased.

Edit - no I don’t. I have to address this bit first

“If a housing estate in this country was 75% black, and the Police on that estate arrested 3 times as many black people as white, you and Dianne Abbott would say they are racist, I would say that they are the victim consequential circumstances and the Police are treating everybody the same.”

That’s not analogous to the situation we’re discussing at all. The stats above prove that black people are disproportionately murdered by the police, so your imaginary housing estate where black people are arrested in direct proportion with their numbers is either incredibly disingenuous, or just thick. I’m inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and plump for the latter for now.

If 12.6% of this estate were black and 23% of arrests were made on black people, I would suggest that indicates a racist bias at play. You’d probably claim it’s because the black people on the estate are all drug dealers.

[aggi]

I don't think I do, I think others have a biased point of view, subconsciously.
You see a White Policeman using excess force on a Black victim.
I just see a Policeman using excess force on a criminal, who's the racist. I don't see the colours because everyone should be treated the same. If it transpires that this Officer was racist, and the act was deliberate then I'm all for throwing the book at him. It may be that this Officer is a good Police Officer who on this occasion showed a very poor lack of judgement with fatal consequences. He might hate racism just as much as you do. If that's the case he deserves to be punished, but does he deserve to be punished in order to satisfy the blood lust of the Black Community or to ease the guilty conscience of the White.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and making an example of him might help some people deal with it, but it doesn't solve any of the underlying issues.

I said previously I don't find fault with black people but circumstances can put them in the line of fire, such as the ghettos and projects.

If a housing estate in this country was 75% black, and the Police on that estate arrested 3 times as many black people as white, you and Dianne Abbott would say they are racist, I would say that they are the victim consequential circumstances and the Police are treating everybody the same.

What if a housing estate was 12.6% black but 23% of people arrested were black?

[Damo]

They are kicking off in london now for no apparent reason. Absolute cretins

[Colburn_Claret]

What if a housing estate was 12.6% black but 23% of people arrested were black?

As Greenmile pointed out the same thing above, I'd agree that that would be racist. You argue, and I've never disagreed because I don't know, that black people are disproportionately targeted because they are black. If the poor in these ghettos and projects are disproportionately black, then it could just as easily be argued that they are targeted because they are poor.
I'm trying to keep an open mind. I find it sickening to accept that the American Police are institutionally racist. People are racist as individuals, not institutions. There are too many Black Police Officers who would be required to turn a blind eye to it, for it to be true. There are many failings in the American system, especially when providing assistance for the poor, lots of things they get wrong, or could improve, but not doing them makes them American, not necessarily racist.
I hope I'm right, you should all hope I'm right, but if you've made your minds up and you're wrong, it's a very sad world. If you are right it's an even sadder one.

[Devils_Advocate]

They are kicking off in london now for no apparent reason. Absolute cretins

Two sides to every story. I've seen reports that the police got a bit heavy handed dragging a protester out of the crowds that caused the incident.

Also reports that it calmed down quite quickly and has just left a lot of tension in the air which could cause things to flare up later this eve

Sure both extremes will play up their side of the story to label and vilify one side or the other whereas I'll keep an eye on various sources and reports to try and find the balanced view that will probably be a lot less sensational

[Greenmile]

As Greenmile pointed out the same thing above, I'd agree that that would be racist. You argue, and I've never disagreed because I don't know, that black people are disproportionately targeted because they are black. If the poor in these ghettos and projects are disproportionately black, then it could just as easily be argued that they are targeted because they are poor.
I'm trying to keep an open mind. I find it sickening to accept that the American Police are institutionally racist. People are racist as individuals, not institutions. There are too many Black Police Officers who would be required to turn a blind eye to it, for it to be true. There are many failings in the American system, especially when providing assistance for the poor, lots of things they get wrong, or could improve, but not doing them makes them American, not necessarily racist.
I hope I'm right, you should all hope I'm right, but if you've made your minds up and you're wrong, it's a very sad world. If you are right it's an even sadder one.

You say “I’m trying to keep an open mind” and then immediately say that one of the conclusions you could have drawn is “sickening to accept”. This suggests your mind may not be as open as you think.

Dismissing something as false because you don’t want it to be true (unfortunately, recent events have highlighted that it is indeed a very sad world) is called an appeal to consequences - https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

I noticed on the various Brexit threads that you seem to be a “look on the bright side”, “things will turn out fine” kind of person, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but you have to be careful not to let that creep into “this bad thing for which I have multiple sources of solid evidence can’t be true, because it would be terrible if it was”.

Edit to add - I do hope you’re right and I’m wrong, but I’m yet to see any evidence to suggest that may be the case.

[Damo]

Two sides to every story. I've seen reports that the police got a bit heavy handed dragging a protester out of the crowds that caused the incident.

Also reports that it calmed down quite quickly and has just left a lot of tension in the air which could cause things to flare up later this eve

Sure both extremes will play up their side of the story to label and vilify one side or the other whereas I'll keep an eye on various sources and reports to try and find the balanced view that will probably be a lot less sensational

Theres videos all over twitter. The police seemed to be appeasing the protesters on some of them by taking the knee in response to chants.
Now I cant say if the police have been heavy handed in some cases, bit I'd be prejudiced enough to say they probably weren't, given the atmosphere and the fact the protesters are looking for any excuse to kick off.
It will turn into rioting and looting anyway. Absolutely no doubt about it.

[Devils_Advocate]

Theres videos all over twitter. The police seemed to be appeasing the protesters on some of them by taking the knee in response to chants.
Now I cant say if the police have been heavy handed in some cases, bit I'd be prejudiced enough to say they probably weren't, given the atmosphere and the fact the protesters are looking for any excuse to kick off.
It will turn into rioting and looting anyway. Absolutely no doubt about it.

I by no means were suggesting the police were being heavy handed because as I said there is conflicting reports.

I've been following some videos of live journalists reporting as it happened an as said its not clear how it started but that it seemed to de-escalate very quickly

You're the one to jump straight in branding people as cretins which you are more than entitled to. I'll hold my judgement on branding either the police or the protesters in such inflammatory terms

[Damo]

I by no means were suggesting the police were being heavy handed because as I said there is conflicting reports.

I've been following some videos of live journalists reporting as it happened an as said its not clear how it started but that it seemed to de-escalate very quickly

You're the one to jump straight in branding people as cretins which you are more than entitled to. I'll hold my judgement on branding either the police or the protesters in such inflammatory terms

I'm branding people kicking off for the sake of it as cretins. For balance I thought the people who smashed up burnley town centre, when we lost to Blackburn were cretins too.
I dont have a problem with people protesting peacefully

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm branding people kicking off for the sake of it as cretins. For balance I thought the people who smashed up burnley town centre, when we lost to Blackburn were cretins too.
I dont have a problem with people protesting peacefully

Do me a favour and let us know the names of any of the people you have seen on Twitter showing the trouble.

This is a genuine ask and not so I can look up the vids and then come back and argue. Im just interested to see and hear a different view/perspective

[Damo]

Do me a favour and let us know the names of any of the people you have seen on Twitter showing the trouble.

This is a genuine ask and not so I can look up the vids and then come back and argue. Im just interested to see and hear a different view/perspective

https://twitter.com/shesamericant/statu ... 04224?s=19

https://twitter.com/glitterylouis_/stat ... 02657?s=19

[Devils_Advocate]

https://twitter.com/shesamericant/statu ... 04224?s=19

https://twitter.com/glitterylouis_/stat ... 02657?s=19

Thanks that was the images I saw from a Journalists twitter account who was live reporting it from near where the camera was shooting

Edit: Back searched the video on your twitter links and the source is the journalist I was following. If your interested this links to the source tweet where he tracks and reports on whats happening at different stages

https://twitter.com/matthabusby/status/ ... 3564398593