England v Brazil - 50 years ago today

[ClaretTony]

Surely the best two teams in the world at the time. We lost it 1-0 but it was a superb game which featured, for us, the brilliant Bobby Moore and THAT save by Gordon Banks.

[Buxtonclaret]

Brilliant game.
Could have gone either way.

PS
And Bobby was INNOCENT!

[tiger76]

Clearly not the 2 best teams in the world, as England would have reached the WC final in that case, and we didn't.

That Brazil side was probably their best ever, and they've had a few decent sides down the decades.

They blew Italy away in the final, with some incredible play.

That WC was the start of the 66 winners breaking up, and England's fortunes taking a nosedive for a long time.

The catalyst was of course Ramsay's bizarre decision to take Bobby Charlton off, when we were coasting against the West Germans.

He never recovered from that setback,and neither did England for over a decade, the 70's were a fallow time to be an England fan, and yet the Scots featured in the 74 and 78 tournaments, different times indeed.

[Wile E Coyote]

this was the era when fewer people were aware of brazilian football, first time their free flowing style became seen by a global audience. Great players, and great to watch.
I have never regarded the banks save as extraordinary, it was a decent stop, but I have seen similar every single season by lots of keepers, and that's just in the english leagues.
it was hyped up by over zealous commentaries for the home audience and played endlessly.

[Hibsclaret]

Clearly not the 2 best teams in the world, as England would have reached the WC final in that case, and we didn't.

That Brazil side was probably their best ever, and they've had a few decent sides down the decades.

They blew Italy away in the final, with some incredible play.

I like the logic, clearly not the best two teams and yet, as you’ve admitted the team that got to the final got absolutely trounced by the team that narrowly beat us. The two best teams rarely get to the final in cup competitions because they often meet in earlier rounds

[huw.Y.WattfromWare]

That miss by Jeff Astle.

[Silkyskills1]

this was the era when fewer people were aware of brazilian football, first time their free flowing style became seen by a global audience. Great players, and great to watch.
I have never regarded the banks save as extraordinary, it was a decent stop, but I have seen similar every single season by lots of keepers, and that's just in the english leagues.
it was hyped up by over zealous commentaries for the home audience and played endlessly.

Your comment re:Banks' save got me thinking along similar lines for Bobby Moore. Very difficult to argue against his number of caps and lifting the World.Cup but I saw him live at Turf Moor many times in the 60's and he never particularly impressed me. West Ham were invariably always there for the taking in that era when they came to Turf Moor but I can't recall any impressive displays from him. Nothing personal against him and obviously a well respected player but never saw that much to excite me.

[claretblue]

saw this game on a neighbours colour TV

...it was my first viewing of a TV match in colour - the Brazil strip looked great!

[ashtonlongsider]

The feeling going into the 1970 World Cup was that the team was better and stronger than the '66 team. Even though we were narrowly beaten by Brazil we were absolutely trouncing West Germany in the quarters before Ramsey subbed Bobby Charlton. The other massive miss was Banks through food poisoning but Ramsey couldn't be held responsible for that. As for Banks save, it was absolutely out of this world. Pele's response says it all.

[tiger76]

I like the logic, clearly not the best two teams and yet, as you’ve admitted the team that got to the final got absolutely trounced by the team that narrowly beat us. The two best teams rarely get to the final in cup competitions because they often meet in earlier rounds

Yes i was being slightly facetious, probably player for player these where the 2 best sides in world football at that time, but in a KO comp anything can happen, and England took their foot off the gas against the West Germans in the QF, and ultimately paid the price, also Gordon Banks missing that game was pivotal, it shows how seemingly small incidents can change the course of a tournament.

[Claretitus]

My parents got our first colour tv in time for that game. So much better than black n white. 50 yrs? God I'm getting old!

[Stan Tastic]

The feeling going into the 1970 World Cup was that the team was better and stronger than the '66 team. Even though we were narrowly beaten by Brazil we were absolutely trouncing West Germany in the quarters before Ramsey subbed Bobby Charlton. The other massive miss was Banks through food poisoning but Ramsey couldn't be held responsible for that. As for Banks save, it was absolutely out of this world. Pele's response says it all.

Charlton was subbed at 2-1, after Beckenbauer had scored, so we weren't cruising. Colin Bell came on for him and was hacked down for the most obvious penalty you'll ever see at 3-2.

[ClaretTony]

I stand by the fact that we were the second best team behind Brazil at the time. I can't imagine we wouldn't have beaten Italy in the semis had we not lost it against the West Germans. Everyone points to the Charlton substitution but a minute before they equalised we brought on Norman Hunter for Martin Peters.

I think that was our best ever squad, better than 1966 and then we started to slip down.

[Vino blanco]

When Charlton was taken off, this freed up Beckenbauer who had been man to man marking him. He ran riot and was the main reason Germany took control of the game.

[Silkyskills1]

No substitutes in 1966. Managers had to go with the 11 they put out. Perhaps the availability of them four years later highlighted weaknesses in the manager/coaches thinking. I believe the '66 final is on TV today and for anyone viewing it just look at the physical state of many of the players in that extra 30 mins. One player rose above it and that was Alan Ball who appeared to be still running on full in extra time. Can't think there was any other amongst the remaining 21 players.
And as posted above there was a blatant foul in the box on Bell.immediately after coming on. There would be uproar today if that happened.

Edit: Have to say some of our players were exposed as Germany fought back none more so than left back Terry Cooper.

[groove]

I can't believe this game isn't being shown on TV today, especially in the current nostalgia fetish.

[ClaretTony]

I can't believe this game isn't being shown on TV today, especially in the current nostalgia fetish.

I'd have watched that England v Brazil game again despite us losing the game. Superb game.

[JohnMac]

Watched it at Prarie Sports Field in a marquee on a COLOUR TELEVISION.

Seems daft now but I'm sure it was the first time I had seen Colour telly

[ClaretTony]

Watched it at Prarie Sports Field in a marquee on a COLOUR TELEVISION.

Seems daft now but I'm sure it was the first time I had seen Colour telly

I'm sure it was the following season when i first saw colour telly - one of my mates at school had got one. We got our first in 1972, the Munich Olympics were the first thing I saw.

[Vino blanco]

The first time I first saw colour tv was in 1968, I think it was. The first public place in the Burnley area to have one was the Black Bull up Lane Head. Loads of people went up there just to see it for the first time. It was the busiest pub in Burnley for a few weeks.

[JohnMac]

I'm sure it was the following season when i first saw colour telly - one of my mates at school had got one. We got our first in 1972, the Munich Olympics were the first thing I saw.

There was a military themed thing on and the Marquee had a big sign with 'England v Brazil in COLOUR'

Probably didn't see colour TV again until 1972

[Buxtonclaret]

When Charlton was taken off, this freed up Beckenbauer who had been man to man marking him. He ran riot and was the main reason Germany took control of the game.

Spot on.

[Stan Tastic]

Spot on.

Are you both aware that Beckenbauer had already scored before Charlton was substituted?

[Vino blanco]

Quite aware, Stan, but whenever England got the ball, Beckenbauer was always close to Charlton.

[groove]

The Germans couldn't believe Charlton had been subbed. It lifted the whole side psychologically.

[Claret Toni]

saw this game on a neighbours colour TV

...it was my first viewing of a TV match in colour - the Brazil strip looked great!

I tell my grandkids that colour wasn't invented 'til the 60s - just look at old TV programmes, photographs and films and you'll see they're in Black and White.

The grandkids know I pull their legs about lots of things, but they're still not sure.

….but that game was magnificent whatever the colour (or lack of).

[Pstotto]

The Mexico WC Rally was a massive story at the time, too. Ford Escort Mexico was the result.

[Buxtonclaret]

Are you both aware that Beckenbauer had already scored before Charlton was substituted?

Yep. He had.
But once Charlton went off, I remember the Germans really upped it.
And it was Beckenbauer who seemed to be behind most of what they did to us.

[Silkyskills1]

Yep. He had.
But once Charlton went off, I remember the Germans really upped it.
And it was Beckenbauer who seemed to be behind most of what they did to us.

Beckenbauer definetly came to the fore but so too did their two wingers, Lohr and Grabowski. I stand corrected but I think Grabowski was in the Eintracht Frankfurt side we played in 1967.

[Stan Tastic]

Beckenbauer was also the one that hacked Colin Bell down for the most blatant penalty in the history of penalties. Any half decent ref would've given it and the whole Charlton being subbed for Bell freeing Beckenbauer debate alters completely.

[sandy richardson]

Don't the timings suggest that at 2-0 down with 20-odd minutes to go, there is no point in Beckenbauer being so concerned with Charlton? He goes forward, scores, and then Bell is brought on as someone who can deal with him better than Charlton can?