Sadiq Khan name changes ....

[LordBob]

The London Mayor has suggested we "modernise" monuments and place names in light of the recent demonstrations. Well as far as our slave trade history goes I understand, move the monuments to museums that goes someway to explain our disgusting period or should I say the the evil of some. I spent quite a bit of time in Hull when I was younger and often visited the Wilberforce museum where the horrors of the slave trade are explicit but but what Khan is asking we do is not relevant he wants to rename parks and squares that as he says "reflects our diversity" a bit of a hypocrite really he wants to do what he despises us for doing that is forcing ourselves on other nations and cultures changing names of places to suit the English way. Some question was that all wrong but it begs the question is Khan pushing the great replacement. Remove the slave trading monuments but Trafalgar Square remains Trafalgar Square not Medina Square no crescent moons on any monument, Khan is a dodgy dealer.

[Greenmile]

“The Great Replacement”? Really?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPn0KFlbqX8

[Quickenthetempo]

The only thing that happens when you open a can of worms up is you get people from the other side of the argument popping up.

As soon as the Bristol statue went down people were calling for mosques and churches to come down as they have links with the slave trade, the prophet Muhammad has links.

The world cup in Qatar shouldn't go ahead.

How far do you want to go?

*The links are what other people have suggested.

[Bosscat]

Anyone else thought this was about Sadiq Khan thinking of changing his name

[chorleyhere]

Not a Khan fan are you OP - its obvious a political response to someone you already have an agenda against. Not a well balance argument.

[Woodleyclaret]

Nonsense the past occurred .it was what it was.
Africans sold their enemies to each other, arab traders and white merchants.
Pol Pot tried to eliminate history in Cambodia and it put the country into decline for decades.
Evil deeds were committed by White Black and Asians alike.We move on and learn from history not try to rewritei it to suit others agenda

[AlargeClaret]

Changing his name to “ useless c0ck womble” I presume ?

Though the setting up of a commitee to decide which bits oh history we don’t like and who should come down/name changes etc etc is a dangerous precedent . You can only imagine the make up of the decision makers. Shall we tear down the pyramids ? The White House ?The tan mahal ? what about the 50,000 Jews that built the colosseum ? Whole civilizations were built on slavery

While evil is evil regardless off time, judging people’s actions in history by modern liberal standards is a very selective,misleading and political game to play .

[Colburn_Claret]

As Woodley says, slavery has been happening for thousands of years, we didn't invent it.
Before Black Africans were ruthlessly enslaved and sent to the colonies, Black Africans would have been making slaves of other Black Africans.
The people who perpetrated these acts were men of their times. Not excusing them, but they knew no better. Thanks to the enlightenment of William Wilberforce, and man thousands of unnamed supporters, WE abolished it. WE were the first to abolish it, and 187 years is a long time to be carrying guilt.
There's still work to do to defeat racism, but as many on here understand, as abhorrent as it is, it is nowhere near as prolific, or as vitriolic as it was. Every generation is more enlightened than the one before. If there was a demographic poll on racism, the younger the generation, the less racism would be supported. BLM, and I support their stance, seem to expect racism to stop as if it is falling off a cliff, and that just isn't realistic. Eventually it will die out, as the older generations die off, leaving behind people who've only known a multicultural life, who've had life long friends from every other culture and religion.
The statue that was pulled down in Bristol wasn't erected for his contributions to slavery, but for his philanthropic contributions to the City of Bristol. I don't see anything positive about pulling it down. It is a part of our history, we can't rewrite it 200 years later. We can't put it out of sight and pretend it never happened. Far better to leave it there as a reminder to all people of what man is capable of, both good and bad.

[padihamclaret]

If we do all this, what will people have to complain about then?

[tim_noone]

What about white Slavery?

[mdd2]

Half of our ancient buildings would have been built with the help of serfs;serdom was only finally abolished in the 1500's. I know, lets rip up the magna carta as it did nothing to abolish in built slavery in England and whilst we are at it perhaps we should abolish Rhodes scholarships and make void all Oxford degrees where the recipients, such as Bill Clinton, held such scholarships and especially I would imagine John Edgar Wideman, Randall Kennedy, and Kurt Schmoke to name a few of the African Americans to be awarded these scholarships. And what about all the philanthropy from Victorians who allowed little boys to sweep chimneys-the list is endless. Most of our hospitals and schools originally came from those who made millions out of slavery of one kind or another.
By all means root out the misery inflicted in the UK and elsewhere by racialism today but going back centuries and expecting the modern "white man" to be culpable is ridiculous and to claim that the deaths in BAME is due to racism-let's wait until we know the facts. Expecting Dianne Abbot to claim her diabetes is due to racism next.

[fzr162]

If there is nothing to complain about some people on this board will complain that there is nothing to complain about.

[Im_not_Robbie_Blake]

If there is nothing to complain about some people on this board will complain that there is nothing to complain about.

I wish to complain about this complaint.

[Bosscat]

If there is nothing to complain about some people on this board will complain that there is nothing to complain about.

A customer enters a pet shop..........

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

(The owner does not respond.)

Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?

Owner: What do you mean "miss"?

Mr. Praline: (pause)I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!

Owner: We're closin' for lunch.

Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this parrot what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?

[tim_noone]

I wish to complain about this complaint.

Moan..moan...moan.......

[Pstotto]

'Our disgusting period'.... It was the 18C. How was it our disgusting period? You're taking events hundreds of years ago out of context.

1 million white slaves died on the Somme, infinitely more white folk than the Bristol bloke who bought slaves off Africans to transport to America.

Pull down the pyramids, destroy all Roman remains next, because of a connection to slavery?

Nissan Sunderland is slave labour, your jeans are.

[Burnley1989]

'Our disgusting period'.... It was the 18C. How was it our disgusting period? You're taking events hundreds of years ago out of context.

1 million white slaves died on the Somme, infinitely more white folk than the Bristol bloke who bought slaves off Africans to transport to America.

Pull down the pyramids, destroy all Roman remains next, because of a connection to slavery?

Nissan Sunderland is slave labour, your jeans are.

Not sure about a few of those points

[CombatClaret]

Where were all these defenders of history when Jimmy Savile's statue was removed?

[Pstotto]

But for slavery there would be no blacks in the developed world, they wouldn't be alive today in the world's top nations to complain. Most of their ancestors would have died anyway of black slavery in Africa, war, disease, killed by animals. As a race they've never had it so good, thanks to the whites giving them jobs in the Americas in the 18C.

Ask they question, if not for slavery in the 18C, where would they be now? Fair question.

It's the same with dissing the British Empire. Where would those folk be now and those countries but for the British?

Look at Rwanda and that's only 20 years ago. Over a million dead from being clubbed to death, women and children and babies clubbed to death literally in their millions.

That would not have happened under British rule.

No white cops in Minneapolis, how many blacks dead, black on black?

[Hapag Lloyd]

Where were all these defenders of history when Jimmy Savile's statue was removed?

WTF

[Clarets4me]

" Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it "

The one lesson I think we can all take from history, is that " mob rule " is rarely, if ever, a good thing ....

[CombatClaret]

Ask they question, if not for slavery in the 18C, where would they be now? Fair question.

Shaping their own destiny like independent nations which weren't conquered and occupied?

They should thank us for giving them cricket, some railroad infrastructure and kidnapping them across the globe so their descendants could be brutalized by the police.

[martin_p]

Nonsense the past occurred .it was what it was.
Africans sold their enemies to each other, arab traders and white merchants.
Pol Pot tried to eliminate history in Cambodia and it put the country into decline for decades.
Evil deeds were committed by White Black and Asians alike.We move on and learn from history not try to rewritei it to suit others agenda

Who's rewriting history?

All that is being asked is that we don't celebrate some of the more dodgy history. Seems reasonable.

[SonofPog]

……...
Look at Rwanda and that's only 20 years ago. Over a million dead from being clubbed to death, women and children and babies clubbed to death literally in their millions.

That would not have happened under British rule.
….

Rwanda was a German colony... So what you mean is, that would not have happened under German rule... Erm… Ahhh… Nevermind eh.

[Pstotto]

You be good martin_p and the world will follow.

[Pstotto]

Sono, effectively I meant.

If it were a German colony today, Rwandan genocide would not have happened.

[CombatClaret]

WTF

"You can't change history"
"He did a lot of philanthropy work"

I didn't see these arguments or a thread pop up when Savile's statue was removed. I think we could all see a statue is meant to celebrate someone, but if someone commits acts of evil on society they should no longer be celebrated.

[Pstotto]

https://www.architecturaldigest.com/sto ... -ballerina

I like this. More of this.

[AlargeClaret]

"You can't change history"
"He did a lot of philanthropy work"

I didn't see these arguments or a thread pop up when Savile's statue was removed. I think we could all see a statue is meant to celebrate someone, but if someone commits acts of evil on society they should no longer be celebrated.

A very reasonable point but Saviles behaviour woujd have been appalling for any period in history .Slavery in the 1600’s was seen simply as a lucrative supply and demand business , regardless of how unpleasant we rightly view it today

[bfcjg]

I hope a few join me this weekend to tear this place fown brick by brick. Do you know what these horned bstards did to our forebears including slavery ?
https://www.jorvikvikingcentre.co.uk/the-vikings/

[BurnleyFC]

I’m all for name change. In fact, I’ve renamed my teddy bear from childhood ‘Muhammad’

[BurnleyPaul]

Thanks to the enlightenment of William Wilberforce...

He was sexist and openly against Catholic emancipation!

[martin_p]

I hope a few join me this weekend to tear this place fown brick by brick. Do you know what these horned bstards did to our forebears including slavery ?
https://www.jorvikvikingcentre.co.uk/the-vikings/

I think you’re getting confused between museums that tell us about history and monuments that celebrate a person/event.

[IanMcL]

I ripped out the Sweet William that my father in law seeded in my back garden, years ago.

It was named in honour of William, Duke of Cumberland.
In Scotland it is 'Stinking Billy'.

I remember Culloden.

[Spijed]

A very reasonable point but Saviles behaviour woujd have been appalling for any period in history.

No it wouldn't. Child slavery and exploitation went hand in hand.

[RingoMcCartney]

“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”

― George Orwell.

[martin_p]

“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”

― George Orwell.

Which no one is suggesting.

[Billy Balfour]

Is this thread what they call a 'honeytrap'?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I’m all for name change. In fact, I’ve renamed my teddy bear from childhood ‘Muhammad’

That's the mob going to come looking for you.

You're not allowed to name an inanimate object after Muhammed
English person teaching in Africa made that same mistake with a teddy about 15yrs ago and nearly ended up killed over it.

[Blackrod]

Shaping their own destiny like independent nations which weren't conquered and occupied?

They should thank us for giving them cricket, some railroad infrastructure and kidnapping them across the globe so their descendants could be brutalized by the police.

How developed would those counties be now ? How far would they have travelled and settled ? What sort of numbers would be now in westernised / developed countries ? Whilst slavery is abhorrent ( but that was then) look at what some counties do to each other regardless of colour. Rwanda is mentioned above, there’s Sierra Leone and so on. We can learn from history but you can’t change the past. Going round smashing things up and looting doesn’t help anything.

[Heathclaret]

Where were all these defenders of history when Jimmy Savile's statue was removed?

What?


Jesus what .

[bfcjg]

I think you’re getting confused between museums that tell us about history and monuments that celebrate a person/event.

Nope all the same, the statue is history. What next questionnaires on the French beaches asking which aspects of the land of milk and honey will you find offensive and want removing.

[AlargeClaret]

Quelle suprise !

Mr Khan said the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm would aim to have statues and memorials which "better reflect London" including the inclusion of more black, disabled and LGBTQ+ people.

Though personally I don’t see an issue in the removal of a few long long forgotten slave traders statues , I’d like to see any street/name changes perhaps reflecting modern day London with maybe even the odd white straight person of note ?( if indeed there’s any left in modern day London )?

[martin_p]

Nope all the same, the statue is history. What next questionnaires on the French beaches asking which aspects of the land of milk and honey will you find offensive and want removing.

No, the statue celebrates history, although it is history now! But whether the statue is there or not the life of the man it celebrated doesn't change.

[martin_p]

Quelle suprise !

Mr Khan said the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm would aim to have statues and memorials which "better reflect London" including the inclusion of more black, disabled and LGBTQ+ people.

Though personally I don’t see an issue in the removal of a few long long forgotten slave traders statues , I’d like to see any street/name changes perhaps reflecting modern day London with maybe even the odd white straight person of note ?( if indeed there’s any left in modern day London )?

Hence the word 'including'.

[aggi]

Nope all the same, the statue is history. What next questionnaires on the French beaches asking which aspects of the land of milk and honey will you find offensive and want removing.

The plaque on the statue read

“Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city”.

You can see why some people felt it didn't accurately represent history.

[AlargeClaret]

Hence the word 'including'.

You really think the committee will be looking for balance and pro rata representation , I hope so as my black nephews are proud young Londoner’s as well as proud men of colour,it’s all about moderation and balance not rabid politics of division

[martin_p]

You really think the committee will be looking for balance and pro rata representation , I hope so as my black nephews are proud young Londoner’s as well as proud men of colour,it’s all about moderation and balance not rabid politics of division

Yes they will, but lets not forget that we are starting from a position of white dominated naming, so expect there to be some catching up.

[SalisburyClaret]

Just another attempt to rewrite history. Changing names doesn’t better reflect London. Leaving the names and statues in place reflects the “mistakes” of the past so those in the future can learn from them.

[martin_p]

Just another attempt to rewrite history. Changing names doesn’t better reflect London. Leaving the names and statues in place reflects the “mistakes” of the past so those in the future can learn from them.

I'll ask again as the last person i asked didn't answer. How is it 'rewriting history'?