Sadiq Khan name changes ....

[AndrewJB]

Nonsense the past occurred .it was what it was.
Africans sold their enemies to each other, arab traders and white merchants.
Pol Pot tried to eliminate history in Cambodia and it put the country into decline for decades.
Evil deeds were committed by White Black and Asians alike.We move on and learn from history not try to rewritei it to suit others agenda

Who is talking about erasing the past? A statue or monument celebrates a person or thing. It’s appropriate to remember the negative people and chapters of our history, but is it right to actually celebrate them? What would it say about us to do that?

[SalisburyClaret]

I'll ask again as the last person i asked didn't answer. How is it 'rewriting history'?

In a nutshell - once there was a time when we admired and honoured certain individuals to the point where we erected statues and named streets and landmarks after them. Removing and renaming these means that future generations won’t know the admiration in which these individuals were once held.
Obviously more to it but that’s certainly one aspect of it

[dermotdermot]

This is just getting more ridiculous by the minute. We are in the middle of this global pandemic which is affecting hundreds of millions of people worldwide, whether by illness, death or financial ruin and this little idiot feels the need to placate these black terrorists by suggesting that we rename ares of London in their honour. If this doesn’t increase racism, I don’t know what will.

[Blackrod]

Change to Sadiq Khant but the ‘a’ could be swapped to another vowel of choice.

[Hipper]

A very reasonable point but Savilles behaviour would have been appalling for any period in history .Slavery in the 1600’s was seen simply as a lucrative supply and demand business , regardless of how unpleasant we rightly view it today

That's the most interesting point in this whole debate because actually Saville's behaviour was not seen as appalling at the time by those who knew about it. They effectively did nothing. Even the victims did nothing. It was only when he died that his activities became public knowledge and the whole facade of his dogooding nature fell apart. And that led to other previous pillars of our admiration such as Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris etc. getting their comeuppances.

Is that not what is going on here. It's not new that slave trader statues have been questioned. It is nevertheless a good question. We have been sensitive enough not to have a statue of Arthur 'Bomber' Harris and the Bomber Command Memorial until recently and they remain controversial.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35161671

I don't know the answer but there is clearly a compromise between rewriting history and what we in this country feel comfortable with. As our country is multi-racial we need to be sensitive to that too.

On the subject of slave trading (that is using slaves as a trading commodity like cloth or jewellery as opposed to just using them as slaves to do work) there were quite a few objections, often on religious grounds - we're all God's creatures. When Spain was active in slave trading they allowed any slave who would convert to Catholicism to be freed. That covered some of their consciences. The problem is slave trading led to big profits and many in this country benefited. There are books somewhere that list the people, many relatively ordinary folk, who invested in a voyage that included slave trading. There's no doubt that as a country we benefited greatly from the whole set up, and many of today's established businesses, such as banks, as well as quite likely earlier families of people on this forum, profited from it.

What we should do about that I don't know. Nothing I think.

[Colburn_Claret]

Who is talking about erasing the past? A statue or monument celebrates a person or thing. It’s appropriate to remember the negative people and chapters of our history, but is it right to actually celebrate them? What would it say about us to do that?

That he was a man of his time.
I said earlier, he didn’t get a statue for his contribution to slavery, but for his contribution to Bristol.
If a good deed comes out of a bad deed, does that make it bad also. People of his ilk built hospitals, improved sanitation. They were some of the founding Fathers of pre industrial Britain. They did lots of good. They weren't seen as bad people in the 18th century, but heroes. It's simple for us to look back today and recognise the horrors of slavery, but is it right to chastise his memory and all the good he did. I don't think it is, he was a man of his time. He should be forgiven for his faults because he knew no better. To not forgive him says as much about you, as it does him.

[ClaretAndJew]

Hitler was a good artist. Let's get his exhibition released.

[Hipper]

That he was a man of his time.
I said earlier, he didn’t get a statue for his contribution to slavery, but for his contribution to Bristol.
If a good deed comes out of a bad deed, does that make it bad also. People of his ilk built hospitals, improved sanitation. They were some of the founding Fathers of pre industrial Britain. They did lots of good. They weren't seen as bad people in the 18th century, but heroes. It's simple for us to look back today and recognise the horrors of slavery, but is it right to chastise his memory and all the good he did. I don't think it is, he was a man of his time. He should be forgiven for his faults because he knew no better. To not forgive him says as much about you, as it does him.

It could also be argued that we now know better and it is wiser not to display his statue.

[karatekid]

Should we stop teaching about slavery in schools and just pretend it never happened? Should we burn all the books that tell tales of masters and servants?

Of course not is the answer, so why will destroying statues and changing street names help stop racism? It won't. Integration and equality through education must start at an early age. Get rid of faith schools. Educate everyone as equals and give more opportunities to the poorest to progress to university and beyond. Stop being ruled by the elitist mob.

[ClaretAndJew]

We don't really get taught about the tragedy of English slave traders in school though, do we?

Also, education in a school and a statue celebrating someone are completely different things.

[Quickenthetempo]

I think I should email the club and get Joey Bartons championship winning medal took off him.

Well he has got a dodgy past, so he doesn't deserve it.

[karatekid]

I'll bet 99% of the people who pass these statues haven't got a clue who they are. Probably because they haven't been taught it at school.

[bfcjg]

The statue is part of history, the people at the time thought highly of him he gave money etc to the City. How he got that money was vile but you cannot just say they were wrong in those days to erect it. Surely better to leave it up with a plaque explaining how he got his money etc and get people to understand what happened , this talk of putting it in a museum wont work because who actually would go to a boring museum as a youngster.

[Blackrod]

Not sure slave labourers should have statues but as stated above they were a product of their time. You can’t rewrite history. I saw a period drama the other day that had ‘black ‘ roles made to fit but it clearly didn’t reflect the period it was trying to depict. Equally some modern programs / films don’t have enough diversity to reflect the society and setting although this is changing. We could probably find fault with most historical events if we tried hard enough. It’s about context. I’d have no problem with a statue of Bomber Harris though. We had to do whatever possible to defeat that evil regime and it’s supporters. We were that close to being defeated in the early years and the consequences really don’t bear thinking about. We wouldn’t be able to have debates such as this.

[Murger]

Khan is a prick. All he's doing is going after what will win him re-election.

[bfcjg]

Lets take down Nelson's column, he attacked the French Spanish and others. Horrible chap. Lets replace it with captain pugwash Oh hang on that's a white man .

[chorleyhere]

Do you mean just like Boris ? Which politicians actually do and say things on purpose in order not to get elected? More thoughtful discussion needed by some posters ........

[Cirrus_Minor]

I don't think anybody is trying to rewrite history nor should they but maybe it is not unreasonable to remove the statues of genocidal racists so we don't appear like we are celebrating their contributions.

[karatekid]

There is a statue of Henry 8th at the entrance to St. Barts hospital in London. Should this be allowed to stand after murdering his wives and countless others? Where does it end?

[Devils_Advocate]

The state of this thread

[JohnMac]

Let's modernise, why not, we could have places like:
Bag Snatching Avenue
Bitch Slapping Road
Ram Raid Close
MoFo Street

[CoolClaret]

Let's modernise, why not, we could have places like:
Bag Snatching Avenue
Bitch Slapping Road
Ram Raid Close
MoFo Street

Stab Alley,
Pickpocket Square,
Drug dealing Gardens.

All super current and modern!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Should we stop teaching about slavery in schools and just pretend it never happened? Should we burn all the books that tell tales of masters and servants?

Of course not is the answer, so why will destroying statues and changing street names help stop racism? It won't. Integration and equality through education must start at an early age. Get rid of faith schools. Educate everyone as equals and give more opportunities to the poorest to progress to university and beyond. Stop being ruled by the elitist mob.

We are taught a white washed version of British history though.
That's how it works, the victor's write and teach their version of events.

Japan are reviled for not teaching their kids about their horrendous crimes during WW2, but in all fairness we aren't much better.

Should a number of statues be removed?
Yes I think they should, however maybe it would be a better idea to move them to a place that has a full unabridged history in place with them, so people can learn about how the country behaved during certain eras.

We could also make it compulsory for schools to visit such places in the UK, along with trips to places like Auschwitz.

We can't undo what we've done, but we shouldn't ignore it either.
Without slavery/empire we wouldn't be the country we are today, but it would be nice if we just held our hands up and accepted that our forefathers weren't the nicest of people.
Yeah we helped to end slavery, even if the method was dubious, but we still behaved poorly when it came to the creation of Israel and when we split India to create Pakistan.

I agree about your points on education though and it would go a long way to helping to fix the country.

[Devils_Advocate]

Oh dear, hang on to those bottom lips boys.....#BLMs #RhodesMustFall

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Oh dear, hang on to those bottom lips boys.....#BLMs #RhodesMustFall

They've been trying to get his statue taken down for a few years now, it's only really getting more attention because of the current events.

Another statue that should be moved and put on display elsewhere with a full history of what he did so it can educate people instead.

[Devils_Advocate]

They've been trying to get his statue taken down for a few years now, it's only really getting more attention because of the current events.

Another statue that should be moved and put on display elsewhere with a full history of what he did so it can educate people instead.

I know but im just enjoying the quivering lip brigade wet the bed over it
#where will it end
#wont somebody think about the children

[tim_noone]

The statue is part of history, the people at the time thought highly of him he gave money etc to the City. How he got that money was vile but you cannot just say they were wrong in those days to erect it. Surely better to leave it up with a plaque explaining how he got his money etc and get people to understand what happened , this talk of putting it in a museum wont work because who actually would go to a boring museum as a youngster.

I went to more museums as a youngster than when I got older....and as I got older I was disappointed they pulled Saddam Hussein's statue down and then Hung Him!!

[nil_desperandum]

It’s about context. I’d have no problem with a statue of Bomber Harris though. We had to do whatever possible to defeat that evil regime and it’s supporters. We were that close to being defeated in the early years and the consequences really don’t bear thinking about. We wouldn’t be able to have debates such as this.

But we've already got one. I think that it was erected more as a symbolic gesture to mark the bravery and sacrifice of all those who fought and lost their lives on bombing raids, rather than just a personal "celebration" of him, hence the caption on the plinth - "The Nation owes them all an immense debt".
He was always a divisive character, and even Churchill expressed grave reservations about his indiscriminate bombing of undefended cities full of civilians and refugees towards the end of the war. He was just about the only military leader of his rank not to be honoured immediately after the war. In fact it wasn't until 1992 - 8 years after his death that an RAF veterans' organisation erected a statue to him adjacent to Dowding - a real hero - outside St Clement Danes. It was highly controversial and even back then had to be guarded against vandalism etc
It wasn't just the morality of his bombing policy that was an issue. Even during the war he was known as "Butch " (Butcher) because of his apparent indifference shown towards the risks his own men faced, and their appalling death-rate.

[dermotdermot]

I’ve just read several articles about Cecil Rhodes. He comes across as an extremely hardworking man who achieved an enormous amount against a backdrop of ill health and various setbacks throughout his life. He instigated a scholarship system where people from Africa could travel to Oxford to enrol. Initially this was predominantly for white people simply because, at that time, most black people didn’t show an aptitude for erudition. That changed over a period of time and many black people have benefited from his generosity. To classify him, amongst others, as a genocidal racist is ridiculous. He was no more racist than perhaps anyone else at that time. The world was the way it was. Native Africans had not advanced to a degree that they could explore overseas or maximise assets in their own country. You can’t blame Europeans for wanting to explore the world and capitalise. I had an uncle Herb who travelled the world in the thirties eventually settling in Sumatra where he set up a rubber plantation business. He was the nicest uncle you could imagine. He was unfortunate enough to be taken as a prisoner of war by the Japanese in 1941 and no one heard anything from him for years but he survived and eventually returned to England albeit somewhat broken by his exploits. Such people are not to be denigrated in any way especially by this underachieving vacuous mob.

[martin_p]

That he was a man of his time.
I said earlier, he didn’t get a statue for his contribution to slavery, but for his contribution to Bristol.
If a good deed comes out of a bad deed, does that make it bad also. People of his ilk built hospitals, improved sanitation. They were some of the founding Fathers of pre industrial Britain. They did lots of good. They weren't seen as bad people in the 18th century, but heroes. It's simple for us to look back today and recognise the horrors of slavery, but is it right to chastise his memory and all the good he did. I don't think it is, he was a man of his time. He should be forgiven for his faults because he knew no better. To not forgive him says as much about you, as it does him.

And that will still all be in the history books.

[Devils_Advocate]

Sadiq's on as.....

#RobertMilliganIsGone #BLMs

[Heathclaret]

Sadiq's on as.....

#RobertMilliganIsGone #BLMs

You buddy, are a disgrace.

[mdd2]

Happy for that statue of Rhodes to be removed and to cancel all Rhodes scholarships and to give the money to the Government to pay for Covid or better still give it to Southern Rhodesia to help its recovery from the awful treatment its black people received from the whites before Robert Mugabe rescued them for poverty disease and starvation.
Might not be a bad idea too to chase down all those African leaders who captured enslaved and sold their kith and kin to the whiteman to sell on in Europe, and the Americas whilst we are resurrecting the past and re-writing history. The white man and the black man worked together to enslave many black men women and children. By todays standards many of our forefathers, black and white were to blame.

[Heathclaret]

We are taught a white washed version of British history though.
That's how it works, the victor's write and teach their version of events.

Japan are reviled for not teaching their kids about their horrendous crimes during WW2, but in all fairness we aren't much better.

Should a number of statues be removed?
Yes I think they should, however maybe it would be a better idea to move them to a place that has a full unabridged history in place with them, so people can learn about how the country behaved during certain eras.

We could also make it compulsory for schools to visit such places in the UK, along with trips to places like Auschwitz.

We can't undo what we've done, but we shouldn't ignore it either.
Without slavery/empire we wouldn't be the country we are today, but it would be nice if we just held our hands up and accepted that our forefathers weren't the nicest of people.
Yeah we helped to end slavery, even if the method was dubious, but we still behaved poorly when it came to the creation of Israel and when we split India to create Pakistan.

I agree about your points on education though and it would go a long way to helping to fix the country.

Keep blaming the education system for teaching you for free. Nothing to stop you educating yourself and cross referencing what you are taught.

History matters. I’m not even a breast beating Englishman, but this removal of references to our history is a disgrace.

I actually voted labour in the last election and am a remainer but this erosion of Britain’s history to appease a group of people who have a chip on their shoulder is unacceptable.

[Greenmile]

The statue is part of history, the people at the time thought highly of him he gave money etc to the City. How he got that money was vile but you cannot just say they were wrong in those days to erect it. Surely better to leave it up with a plaque explaining how he got his money etc and get people to understand what happened , this talk of putting it in a museum wont work because who actually would go to a boring museum as a youngster.

They tried to do that.

https://twitter.com/katewilliamsme/stat ... 1973516290

[bfcjg]

I still think the statue should be left up, what better way to mark how society has changed by black and white friends, couples etc socialising around it as equals living in.peace. As it is now in my opinion it shows that some bizarre reason black people feel threatened and inferior by history.

[Colburn_Claret]

We don't really get taught about the tragedy of English slave traders in school though, do we?

Also, education in a school and a statue celebrating someone are completely different things.

It will be part of the curriculum if Khan gets his way.
25 reasons why we should hate Britain.
He pontificates about racism in a country where he is the Asian Mayor of one of the biggest cities in the world. Oh the irony.......

[Rileybobs]

It will be part of the curriculum if Khan gets his way.
25 reasons why we should hate Britain.
He pontificates about racism in a country where he is the Asian Mayor of one of the biggest cities in the world. Oh the irony.......

So racism doesn’t exist in this country because the Mayor of London is from a minority ethnic group? Sounds legit.

[martin_p]

Happy for that statue of Rhodes to be removed and to cancel all Rhodes scholarships and to give the money to the Government to pay for Covid or better still give it to Southern Rhodesia to help its recovery from the awful treatment its black people received from the whites before Robert Mugabe rescued them for poverty disease and starvation.
Might not be a bad idea too to chase down all those African leaders who captured enslaved and sold their kith and kin to the whiteman to sell on in Europe, and the Americas whilst we are resurrecting the past and re-writing history. The white man and the black man worked together to enslave many black men women and children. By todays standards many of our forefathers, black and white were to blame.

And I'm more than happy for anything celebrating the black men involved to be removed as well.

[aggi]

It will be part of the curriculum if Khan gets his way.
25 reasons why we should hate Britain.
He pontificates about racism in a country where he is the Asian Mayor of one of the biggest cities in the world. Oh the irony.......

Ironically one of the reasons he won was the Conservatives ran a racist campaign against him.

[Heathclaret]

So racism doesn’t exist in this country because the Mayor of London is from a minority ethnic group? Sounds legit.

Rileybobs with more of his off the cuff bullshit.

[Rileybobs]

Rileybobs with more of his off the cuff bullshit.

Cheers pal. I wish I could return the complement but I honestly can’t remember a single post of yours.

[Claret Toni]

A very reasonable point but Saviles behaviour woujd have been appalling for any period in history .Slavery in the 1600’s was seen simply as a lucrative supply and demand business , regardless of how unpleasant we rightly view it today

Pretty sure those on the wrong end of slavery wouldn't have seen it as simply a lucrative supply and demand business - but I feel ill at ease judging past generations by todays standards.

Who knows how some of the things I've got up to over the years would be judged in (a few) generations time - travelling and polluting the world, not sharing the good fortune I've had with those who've never had a chance, and that's before we start on my general lack of PC approach to life.

[Heathclaret]

Cheers pal. I wish I could return the complement but I honestly can’t remember a single post of yours.

Not really surprising as you don’t really take any notice of what anybody writes unless it fits in with your revisionist claptrap.

Your one line responses and populist opinions are as childish as your use of the English language.

[Colburn_Claret]

So racism doesn’t exist in this country because the Mayor of London is from a minority ethnic group? Sounds legit.

Where in that post, or any others on this thread, have I said racism doesn't exist.
The left wing liberals being as illiberal as ever. As anyone not blinkered knows, this country, despite its many imperfections, is one of the most inclusive countries in the world. Nobody minds the BLM movement, we support its aims, but to not recognise or deliberately ignore the many steps forward this society has made over the last 50 years is disingenuous to say the least.

[Rileybobs]

Not really surprising as you don’t really take any notice of what anybody writes unless it fits in with your revisionist claptrap.

Your one line responses and populist opinions are as childish as your use of the English language.

Chill bro.

Rather than attack my personality why don’t you counter what I posted?

[Rileybobs]

Where in that post, or any others on this thread, have I said racism doesn't exist.
The left wing liberals being as illiberal as ever. As anyone not blinkered knows, this country, despite its many imperfections, is one of the most inclusive countries in the world. Nobody minds the BLM movement, we support its aims, but to not recognise or deliberately ignore the many steps forward this society has made over the last 50 years is disingenuous to say the least.

You said;

‘ He pontificates about racism in a country where he is the Asian Mayor of one of the biggest cities in the world. Oh the irony.......’

Which suggests that you think it’s wrong that Khan pontificates about racism in this country because of his heritage and senior position. So what is the irony?

[AndrewJB]

Should we stop teaching about slavery in schools and just pretend it never happened? Should we burn all the books that tell tales of masters and servants?

Of course not is the answer, so why will destroying statues and changing street names help stop racism? It won't. Integration and equality through education must start at an early age. Get rid of faith schools. Educate everyone as equals and give more opportunities to the poorest to progress to university and beyond. Stop being ruled by the elitist mob.

Learning about something is vastly different to celebrating it. It’s a fundamental difference. It’s why everyone who lives in Germany knows who Hitler was and what he did - despite there being no statues to him left.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Keep blaming the education system for teaching you for free. Nothing to stop you educating yourself and cross referencing what you are taught.

History matters. I’m not even a breast beating Englishman, but this removal of references to our history is a disgrace.

I actually voted labour in the last election and am a remainer but this erosion of Britain’s history to appease a group of people who have a chip on their shoulder is unacceptable.

Where did I say remove references?

I've actually said we should have places that are designed to tell the whole tale and make visits compulsory, did you blink and miss that one?
I don't want our history erased, but nor do I want us to be taught selective parts of it.

We don't need a statue in the street that people will walk past and generally ignore because what's the point of it?

I visited all the museums as a kid, my guardian used to take us to London regularly.

My point is, and remains, schools are given a history curriculum that has a favourable outlook of British history in the main.
RE lessons are the same if I recall correctly, they don't teach you everything about religion, just the nice parts.

Some people look down on others due to skin colour, but they'd have less to feel superior about if they were taught about all the atrocities alongside the good things that were carried out in the name of the Empire.

We led the way in bringing an end to slavery as it was then, maybe its time we led the way in bringing an end to racism/discrimination of non white people in this country.
We will never please everyone, because some people will always hold a grudge, but we should at least make more of an effort.

[bfc-sparta]

Shaping their own destiny like independent nations which weren't conquered and occupied?

There is not one country or people's on earth that has shaped their own destiny or been and independent nation. Every place at some point has been invaded, enslaved, replaced. The british isles and Europe have been invaded and conquered many times. Africa has many tribes that have fought each other and enslaved each other in the past and in some places still do today. Leave history alone.