Sadiq Khan name changes ....

[martin_p]

I'm glad you mentioned David Olusoga, his 2016 show Black and British : A Forgotten History is being re-aired on BBC 4 and by the BBC Red button next week, i missed it first time around, so i'll definitely catch it this time.

Been watching Olusoga in A House Through Time, and he knows how to captivate his audience.

Glasgow is by no means blameless in the slave trade, TBH i doubt any major UK city is, and there has been a lot of debate in the last few years around this topic in the city.

He’s one of the best historians on tv at the moment in my opinion.

[aggi]

Just blows my mind how people can support Sadiq tbh.

Islamic terror attack - 'part and parcel of life in a big city'

Finsbury Park nutjob van attack - extra police deployed around the area to show solidarity

Knife crime & gangland culture literally the biggest threat to black kids in London.

Sets up online units to monitor 'hate crime' & sets up a 'diversity committee' within hours after pressure from a few radicals to pull down statues (not to mention a you gov poll had only 13% agreeing with pulling them down).

Add all this in plus a myriad of other things - defense lawyer for the Nation of Islam and some people still wonder why the average disenfranchised northerner has an ill view towards Sadiq Khan?

Some selective quoting going on there:

“Part and parcel of living in a great global city is you have to be prepared for these things. You have to be vigilant. You have to support the police doing an incredibly hard job” is a very different emphasis.

Are you saying they shouldn't have deployed police after someone drove a van at an Islamic Centre (which is right next to a major transport hub) shouting "I want to kill all Muslims"? Although to be honest I don't remember there being a huge amount of extra police there after the first day or so when I went past, there are armed police there reasonably often anyway because of the station.

I agree about knife crime, etc. I'd say central government budget cuts have played a significant part in that problem though.

Personally I don't rate Khan, he tries too hard to keep everyone (not just lefties who hate the country) happy which means that lots of things don't progress, they get mired down in endless consultations (pretty much like the one you're complaining about) and nothing happens.

[AlargeClaret]

Who, other than the raging Twitter mob, are suggesting this?

As you well know the raging twitter mob are highly vocal ,enough to send pretty much all of corporate Britain into a virtue signaling fest of guilt ridden look at us publicity . If it results in a few name changes and old statues pulled in all for it.Though when this same mob attempt to burn the flag at the cenotaph it opens a whole new level of rage and anger

[ClaretMoffitt]

Who, other than the raging Twitter mob, are suggesting this?

its the raging twitter mob who are currently calling the shots if you haven't noticed

[martin_p]

As you well know the raging twitter mob are highly vocal ,enough to send pretty much all of corporate Britain into a virtue signaling fest of guilt ridden look at us publicity . If it results in a few name changes and old statues pulled in all for it.Though when this same mob attempt to burn the flag at the cenotaph it opens a whole new level of rage and anger

A lot are vocal yes, but nothing changes without broad consensus. Otherwise the ‘raging Twitter mob’ would have stopped Brexit and got Dominic Cummings sacked.

[tiger76]

I find the whole concept of statues an odd thing. It seems as though a number of them are vanity projects paid for by rich people or their friends. 18th century Businessman made a lot of money exploiting slavery and/or the poor and when he dies gives a little bit to build a statue or park so he can be remembered forever?

Vanity projects is a very good description, i equate them to the posting of pictures on Instagram/Twitter for this generation. It's very much a look at me aren't i wonderful mentality.

I'm glad someone has addressed the fact that as far as i know, all the statues mentioned thus far have been of men.

That opens up an entirely different topic, but one that's still relevant to this day. Where are all the statues to the female trailblazers of yesteryear.

[Zlatan]

People literally using the word literally wrong in most literal cases

[martin_p]

its the raging twitter mob who are currently calling the shots if you haven't noticed

Don’t be ridiculous. The vast majority of people are not on Twitter and form their own opinions from what they see and hear around them.

[ClaretMoffitt]

Don’t be ridiculous. The vast majority of people are not on Twitter and form their own opinions from what they see and hear around them.

Oh yeah?

They ended lockdown pretty much over night.

They got statues taken down, pretty much over night.

They got the media and police on board, pretty much over night.

The politicians are dancing to their tune.


The mob are running the show.

And fair play, I got nothing to lose. So if/when it all goes pear shaped it wont affect me. I can just sit back and watch all the chaos unfold.

[bfcjg]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/black-lives-m ... 00845.html
They really are winding people upnow and creating anger where it didnt exist.

[CoolClaret]

Are you saying they shouldn't have deployed police after someone drove a van at an Islamic Centre (which is right next to a major transport hub) shouting "I want to kill all Muslims"? Although to be honest I don't remember there being a huge amount of extra police there after the first day or so when I went past, there are armed police there reasonably often anyway because of the station.

I agree about knife crime, etc. I'd say central government budget cuts have played a significant part in that problem though.

Nope - Not sure how you can derive that from my post tbh.
I'm just saying there's conflicting messages that come from him that leave people scratching their heads.

As for the budget cuts - I agree, but when these bizarre comittees and online units are setup you think to yourself - 'Well, you've clearly budgeted for that, where's the priority? '

[ClaretMoffitt]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/black-lives-m ... 00845.html
They really are winding people upnow and creating anger where it didnt exist.

Like i said, they are working their way up to Churchill. That is their end game on this front.

[CoolClaret]

You mean a poll in a local rag in which just over 1000 people took part?

So we can be sure that approximately 600 out of Bristol’s population of over 400k wanted it to stay.

Put it down to a vote then of every constituent that can vote in the Bristol & further outreaching areas

[martin_p]

Oh yeah?

They ended lockdown pretty much over night.

They got statues taken down, pretty much over night.

They got the media and police on board, pretty much over night.

The politicians are dancing to their tune.


The mob are running the show.

And fair play, I got nothing to lose. So if/when it all goes pear shaped it wont affect me. I can just sit back and watch all the chaos unfold.

They ended lockdown? That was the government!

Overnight? Each of the statues taken down have been targeted for months if not years. The first concerns about the Bristol statue were raised in the 90s!

[martin_p]

Put it down to a vote then of every constituent that can vote in the Bristol & further outreaching areas

Or alternatively don’t waste so much money on the future of a statue and just take down anything celebrating the lives of slave traders. Why’s that a hard decision in a civilised society?

[Billy Balfour]

Oh yeah?

They ended lockdown pretty much over night.

Johnson ended the lockdown with his failure to sack Cummings. Everyone I know said they saw a marked change in behaviour with people openly flouting the lockdown rules. You also know this is true, unless you live on Mars.

[ClaretMoffitt]

Queen Victoria next

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/ ... NRuXwsDZhM

[ClaretMoffitt]

Johnson ended the lockdown with his failure to sack Cummings. Everyone I know said they saw a marked change in behaviour with people openly flouting the lockdown rules. You also know this is true, unless you live on Mars.

The funny thing is you know this is garbage but you still post it thinking some other may actually believe it.

[bfcjg]

Wasnt Bob Lord a bit of a racist ? He was certainly anti semitic according to some.
The Gifton Noel Williams stand has a ring about it.

[martin_p]

The funny thing is you know this is garbage but you still post it thinking some other may actually believe it.

Yet you believing the ‘Twitter mob’ ended it is true. I suspect a significantly higher proportion of the population saw what Dominic Cummings did than regularly use Twitter.

[CoolClaret]

Or alternatively don’t waste so much money on the future of a statue and just take down anything celebrating the lives of slave traders. Why’s that a hard decision in a civilised society?

It's not celebrating it at all - why can't you get this?

Kid walks past, asks their mam/dad who that man is its a chance for a real world bit of education.

Like the quote of Fry showed, which kid wants to go to a museum full of evil men of history?

If you want to do it AT LEAST put it to a vote, listening to the mob and not the ballot box is not what happens in a civilised democracy

[ClaretMoffitt]

Yet you believing the ‘Twitter mob’ ended it is true. I suspect a significantly higher proportion of the population saw what Dominic Cummings did than regularly use Twitter.

I'm not going to waste time arguing with your side. I've learnt my lessons. Its a fruitless exercise. Its just a case of waiting until moments of decisiveness come and then taking the appropriate action. Be that voting in general elections or whatever else.

[martin_p]

I'm not going to waste time arguing with your side. I've learnt my lessons. Its a fruitless exercise. Its just a case of waiting until moments of decisiveness come and then taking the appropriate action. Be that voting in general elections or whatever else.

But you don’t have an argument! It’s evidence free opinion. If you don’t want those opinions challenged then don’t post them.

[ClaretMoffitt]

But you don’t have an argument! It’s evidence free opinion. If you don’t want those opinions challenged then don’t post them.

Just note, that as long as this country remains a democracy. No matter how loud your friends are on social media, no matter how many riots they start, and no matter how many statues they take down. You will still always just be an angry voice, on the peripheral of government power. The silent majority will never be on your side.

Your only hope is to dismantle democracy itself.

[martin_p]

It's not celebrating it at all - why can't you get this?

Kid walks past, asks their mam/dad who that man is its a chance for a real world bit of education.

Like the quote of Fry showed, which kid wants to go to a museum full of evil men of history?

If you want to do it AT LEAST put it to a vote, listening to the mob and not the ballot box is not what happens in a civilised democracy

I can’t get it because there’s a plaque on the statue saying what a wonderful man he was. So if the child decides to read it rather than ask a parent there’s no education happening. Then if you’re going to have statues to dodgy characters then the next question is ‘what are statues for?’ Because up until now the answer to that question has always been ‘to celebrate the life and achievements of the individual’.

[Blackrod]

Queen Victoria next

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/ ... NRuXwsDZhM

I can just imagine the profile of the person (s) that did this. It’s vandalism pure and simple by people who have no self respect and no respect for others or the property of others. The problem with all the is it will actually cause more division and extremism on both sides.

[martin_p]

Just note, that as long as this country remains a democracy. No matter how loud your friends are on social media, no matter how many riots they start, and no matter how many statues they take down. You will still always just be an angry voice, on the peripheral of government power. The silent majority will never be on your side.

Your only hope is to dismantle democracy itself.

I’m not the one who’s angry.

And anyway I thought these angry voices were now controlling the politicians so surely if I was one of them I’d have some power.

[CoolClaret]

I can’t get it because there’s a plaque on the statue saying what a wonderful man he was. So if the child decides to read it rather than ask a parent there’s no education happening. Then if you’re going to have statues to dodgy characters then the next question is ‘what are statues for?’ Because up until now the answer to that question has always been ‘to celebrate the life and achievements of the individual’.

Put both on.

[aggi]

Nope - Not sure how you can derive that from my post tbh.
I'm just saying there's conflicting messages that come from him that leave people scratching their heads.

As for the budget cuts - I agree, but when these bizarre comittees and online units are setup you think to yourself - 'Well, you've clearly budgeted for that, where's the priority? '

I'm not really sure what you meant by Finsbury Park nutjob van attack - extra police deployed around the area to show solidarity then? Are you suggesting that didn't happen with other terrorist attacks? I can't really see your point.

I suspect a lot of these committees and online units are cheap. Lots of volunteers and the like.

[ClaretMoffitt]

I’m not the one who’s angry.

And anyway I thought these angry voices were now controlling the politicians so surely if I was one of them I’d have some power.

Not the politicians who really matter.

[aggi]

Put both on.

An attempt to do that has been rumbling on for years. I suspect that we may not be talking about all of this if there'd been a plaque attached to the statue with his history of slave trading, etc rather than one say what a wise and virtuous man he was.

[martin_p]

Not the politicians who really matter.

So the ‘Twitter mob’ have no influence then. So just ignore them.

[martin_p]

Put both on.

So then to the question ‘what are statues for’ then.

[AlargeClaret]

I can just imagine the profile of the person (s) that did this. It’s vandalism pure and simple by people who have no self respect and no respect for others or the property of others. The problem with all the is it will actually cause more division and extremism on both sides.

Judging by the picture I’d hazard it’s the 1st pair of t1ts the vandal has ever come across (or over,judging by the loving detail on both of Victoria breasts)

[dermotdermot]

Off the subject of statues, etc., I know, but HBO max have removed Gone With the Wind from its schedules indefinitely. This will rage on and on and is most definitely going to increase racial tension, not lessen it.

[Blackrod]

Some immigrants whether first second third or fourth generation should be grateful for the opportunity that this country has afforded them. Many many are. That involves embracing the culture here which is tolerant compared to other countries but also our history. This is a history before they or their ancestors were here. The Colston statue probably should have been removed by discussion and lobbying and perhaps gone in a museum but going around vandalising statues of Churchill and Queen Victoria are a disgrace. The perpetrators need to be locked up and earn some respect. There is s sub culture in this country and we need to take a harder line. I think I’ll move to Denmark and start smashing up statues of Vikings because of what they did to our natural inhabitants. We shouldn’t trade with white Americans because of what their ancestors did to the native Indians. It’s all getting get silly and out of control.

[martin_p]

Off the subject of statues, etc., I know, but HBO max have removed Gone With the Wind from its schedules indefinitely. This will rage on and on and is most definitely going to increase racial tension, not lessen it.

I think it maybe the murder of an innocent black man by a white police officer that is increasing racial tension.

[Blackrod]

People like Khan are actually going to fuel racial tension. He really is a grade 1 twit imo. One thing Trump got right was calling him out for being ‘incompetent’.

[martin_p]

Some immigrants whether first second third or fourth generation should be grateful for the opportunity that this country has afforded them. Many many are. That involves embracing the culture here which is tolerant compared to other countries but also our history. This is a history before they or their ancestors were here. The Colston statue probably should have been removed by discussion and lobbying and perhaps gone in a museum but going around vandalising statues of Churchill and Queen Victoria are a disgrace. The perpetrators need to be locked up and earn some respect. There is s sub culture in this country and we need to take a harder line. I think I’ll move to Denmark and start smashing up statues of Vikings because of what they did to our natural inhabitants. We shouldn’t trade with white Americans because of what their ancestors did to the native Indians. It’s all getting get silly and out of control.

But you’re the one that is getting silly. Some minor acts of vandalism aren’t that important in the bigger picture (incidentally statues are vandalised all the time without a mention in the press).

[Devils_Advocate]

Wow are you lot still crying about a few statues and street names.

Its a good job the brave men and women who fought for us in the great wars were't likely to burst into tears when they didn't get their own way like you betwedders. Get a grip and go and do something useful with your time
#BLM

[CoolClaret]

I think it maybe the murder of an innocent black man by a white police officer that is increasing racial tension.

&That folks is the very problem - white on black.

The media has took this narrative and whipped everyone into a frenzy and creating the impression that life as a black man in America is somewhat akin to a bloke living in the West Bank.

No statistics from the FBI support that only blacks are subject to police brutality - infact research shows that black coppers are more likely to pull the trigger! (probably because theyre also more likely to be policing poor neighbourhoods).

You can look up countless unnecessary deaths at the hands of American cops to white guys: Tony Timpa, Daniel Shaver to name just a couple but everyone will just point to George Floyd rn.

Is police brutality real and serious reforms are needed? Yes.
Is their racism? Yes.

Should that mean we start pulling down monuments and renaming places from an irrational emotive response? No.....

[RingoMcCartney]

People like Khan are actually going to fuel racial tension. He really is a grade 1 twit imo. One thing Trump got right was calling him out for being ‘incompetent’.

"Incompetent"!?

Why give him a promotion?

Having a policy of deciding which statues, plaques and street names can remain dependent on the skin colour is the very definition of racist.

[martin_p]

&That folks is the very problem - white on black.

The media has took this narrative and whipped everyone into a frenzy and creating the impression that life as a black man in America is somewhat akin to a bloke living in the West Bank.

No statistics from the FBI support that only blacks are subject to police brutality - infact research shows that black coppers are more likely to pull the trigger! (probably because theyre also more likely to be policing poor neighbourhoods).

You can look up countless unnecessary deaths at the hands of American cops to white guys: Tony Timpa, Daniel Shaver to name just a couple but everyone will just point to George Floyd rn.

Is police brutality real and serious reforms are needed? Yes.
Is their racism? Yes.

Should that mean we start pulling down monuments and renaming places from an irrational emotive response? No.....

So you don't want to address racism?

[dsr]

It wasn't a Twitter mob that knocked down Colston's statue, and it isn't a Twitter mob that is threatening others.

If Colston is so appalling, which he probably was, then the answer is simple. Take down his statue, change all the street names, destroy his buildings, shut down his schools and charities, and have nothing to do with him or his memory.

Alternatively, keep the names and buildings and schools and charities and remember what evil things were done in the past that are not done now.

Remember the city of London was built on slavery. Where do we stop? Change its name? Is there any country in the world that does not owe much of its history to slavery?

[CoolClaret]

So you don't want to address racism?

The ability to pick that out of that reply is quite a talent.

Are you sure you aren't a journo?

Of course it needs addressing. The greater point is that we still don't even know if the killing was racially motivated - if you look at it that way then yeah of course but it can just be a scumbag police officer.

At least wait to the trial for heavens sake.

[Zlatan]

Remember the city of London was built on slavery. Where do we stop? Change its name? Is there any country in the world that does not owe much of its history to slavery?

Now you’re talking, let’s get rid of the cesspit once and for all...

[martin_p]

It wasn't a Twitter mob that knocked down Colston's statue, and it isn't a Twitter mob that is threatening others.

If Colston is so appalling, which he probably was, then the answer is simple. Take down his statue, change all the street names, destroy his buildings, shut down his schools and charities, and have nothing to do with him or his memory.

Alternatively, keep the names and buildings and schools and charities and remember what evil things were done in the past that are not done now.

Remember the city of London was built on slavery. Where do we stop? Change its name? Is there any country in the world that does not owe much of its history to slavery?

Or change the names of the buildings, schools, etc and remove the statue as it can't really be renamed.

[mdd2]

We have laws that punish those who behave in a manner judged to be racist but it is hard to find occult racism and when I was asked if I had been on equality and diversity training some years ago my answer was "Yes, but these courses do not stop you being a racist sexist bigot" Until we get into the minds and change them we will get nowhere. I think the one hope has come from seeing so many of the young from all races religions and creed protesting. Maybe not in my now short life time but in20 years time we will see a more tolerant society even more than we have at present where skin colour, religion, creed or sexual orientation will have less to do with who gets on in life than which football team you support-UTC and as Dave Allen would say, may your God go with you.

[martin_p]

The ability to pick that out of that reply is quite a talent.

Are you sure you aren't a journo?

Of course it needs addressing. The greater point is that we still don't even know if the killing was racially motivated - if you look at it that way then yeah of course but it can just be a scumbag police officer.

At least wait to the trial for heavens sake.

Yes, but you're arguing that this shouldn't prompt the pulling down of a statue of a slave trader. If you want to address racism how to you justify having statues of slave traders in prominent positions in major cities?

[Greenmile]

We have laws that punish those who behave in a manner judged to be racist but it is hard to find occult racism and when I was asked if I had been on equality and diversity training some years ago my answer was "Yes, but these courses do not stop you being a racist sexist bigot" Until we get into the minds and change them we will get nowhere. I think the one hope has come from seeing so many of the young from all races religions and creed protesting. Maybe not in my now short life time but in20 years time we will see a more tolerant society even more than we have at present where skin colour, religion, creed or sexual orientation will have less to do with who gets on in life than which football team you support-UTC and as Dave Allen would say, may your God go with you.

1B87F936-F7C2-452E-A598-2069F69ABF38.jpeg (66.05 KiB) Viewed 2217 times

I agree with the rest of your post, though.