Swing Low....

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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Swing Low....

Post by ClaretAndJew » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:08 pm

Quicknick wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:56 pm
If it is banned, the whole ground should sing it for 20 minutes.
Why 20 minutes?

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by ClaretAndJew » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:08 pm

Next thing you know the loony liberal left will be banning me from the chinky or the paki shop

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Damo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:34 pm

The moonbats on here will be gutted when this movement to erase history, starts eating into it's own institutions.
Starting with the Guardian newspaper

https://www.salisburyreview.com/blog/th ... -guardian/

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Damo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:37 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:08 pm
Next thing you know the loony liberal left will be banning me from the chinky or the paki shop
That's rather ironic, given your actual username is poking fun at one particular race

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Right_winger » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:40 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:37 pm
That's rather ironic, given your actual username is poking fun at one particular race
He forgets that if it was a for a certain Winston Churchill An loads of patriotic brits he wouldn’t be here today.. you know that part of cruel history.

Absolute spanner’s the lot of them.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by CoolClaret » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

I strongly recommend anyone that is currently supportive of this attempted revolution that downplays the severity, or think its solely about racism to just give the first 30 minutes of this a watch/listen:

https://youtu.be/pRCzZp1J0v0

Then have a read of this
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by martin_p » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:37 pm
That's rather ironic, given your actual username is poking fun at one particular race
In what way is it ‘poking fun’?

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Damo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:36 pm

martin_p wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm
In what way is it ‘poking fun’?
Is he Jewish? Is Jew the only word that rhymes with blue? Is there another reason he may have used it?

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Damo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:36 pm

Right_winger wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:40 pm
He forgets that if it was a for a certain Winston Churchill An loads of patriotic brits he wouldn’t be here today.. you know that part of cruel history.

Absolute spanner’s the lot of them.
Why wouldn't he be here today?

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by martin_p » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:49 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:36 pm
Is he Jewish? Is Jew the only word that rhymes with blue? Is there another reason he may have used it?
I seem to remember him saying something about Jewish ancestry.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Damo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:52 pm

martin_p wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:49 pm
I seem to remember him saying something about Jewish ancestry.
Well if that's the case, I'll happily apologise.
Hopefully he will clear this up

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Stayingup » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:56 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:36 pm
Why wouldn't he be here today?
Well maybe he assumed he is Jewish. If not its a strange choice of name. If Hitler had won the war there wouldn't be Jewish, Black or Gipsy peoples here.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:08 pm

Imagine calling a section of society spanner’s and then bringing Winston Churchill and our WW2 generation into a discussion about a totally unrelated song. Some of you have absolutely no self awareness.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:08 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:56 pm
Well maybe he assumed he is Jewish. If not its a strange choice of name. If Hitler had won the war there wouldn't be Jewish, Black or Gipsy peoples here.
Quite a bold claim.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by CoolClaret » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:26 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:08 pm
Quite a bold claim.
Not really.

Do you think the death camps would've just stopped? He would have genocided any that he deemed as 'inferior'

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:28 pm

CoolClaret wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:26 pm
Not really.

Do you think the death camps would've just stopped? He would have genocided any that he deemed as 'inferior'
Of course not. I just think it’s a very bold claim that had Hitler won the war 75 years ago there wouldn’t be any Black people, to use one example, in this country.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:47 pm

CoolClaret wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:26 pm
Not really.

Do you think the death camps would've just stopped? He would have genocided any that he deemed as 'inferior'
The ideology was the aryan was the true master race superseded by none, anybody inferior the people deemed to be second class citizens would be still allowed to live as they had a purpose to fulfil helping the nazi cause, Speer would have had working them working around the clock on armaments & other areas of production vital to the economy.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:07 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:33 pm
You can’t just choose to reject your past in some sort of Carte Blanche act of redemption! Coulson donated the modern equivalent of millions of pounds to hospitals, schools and civil buildings yet his past isn’t expunged.

I’m not saying it should be banned but in the same way we don’t hear Gary Glitter or Rolf Harris, this song written by a man whose profiteering and exploitation of salves is arguably as bad if not worse then their crimes isn’t subjected to the same scrutiny or opprobrium.
There is no equivalence whatsoever between John Newton and the others you reference (including COLSTON).
John Newton was born into a society where slavery was lawful and was initially captured and press-ganged into the navy. It is true that he later worked on a slave ship and came up through the ranks, but at a relatively early age he rejected his own past and fought against slavery. As an abolitionist he was initially in the minority. He lived just long enough to see the abolition of the Slave Trade in Africa. (Dying just 2 months later).
Glitter and Harris were both consciously breaking the law of their time, whereas - based on his own experiences -Newton fought to change an unjust law, so comparing one of his hymns unfavorably to their music is ludicrous.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by CoolClaret » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:17 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:47 pm
The ideology was the aryan was the true master race superseded by none, anybody inferior the people deemed to be second class citizens would be still allowed to live as they had a purpose to fulfil helping the nazi cause, Speer would have had working them working around the clock on armaments & other areas of production vital to the economy.
They were getting crazier and crazier.

Theres no real logic with the Nazis - they were fueled by drugs, disillusions and a lot of terrible science to push their crazed ideology.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by ClaretAndJew » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:17 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:36 pm
Is he Jewish? Is Jew the only word that rhymes with blue? Is there another reason he may have used it?
Damo,

I have Jewish blood on my Dad's side of the family.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Damo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:20 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:17 pm
Damo,

I have Jewish blood on my Dad's side of the family.
Ok. Then please accept my sincere apology.
I've honestly never seen you mention that. And I probably shouldn't have just made the assumption
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Re: Swing Low....

Post by ClaretAndJew » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:28 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:20 pm
Ok. Then please accept my sincere apology.
I've honestly never seen you mention that. And I probably shouldn't have just made the assumption
You don't need to apologise mate I don't take no offence to these things. I understand your point though. No hard feelings.

Everything is weird in these times.
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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Damo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:34 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:28 pm
You don't need to apologise mate I don't take no offence to these things. I understand your point though. No hard feelings.

Everything is weird in these times.
Thanks for that pal

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:50 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:07 pm
There is no equivalence whatsoever between John Newton and the others you reference (including COLSTON).
John Newton was born into a society where slavery was lawful and was initially captured and press-ganged into the navy. It is true that he later worked on a slave ship and came up through the ranks, but at a relatively early age he rejected his own past and fought against slavery. As an abolitionist he was initially in the minority. He lived just long enough to see the abolition of the Slave Trade in Africa. (Dying just 2 months later).
Glitter and Harris were both consciously breaking the law of their time, whereas - based on his own experiences -Newton fought to change an unjust law, so comparing one of his hymns unfavorably to their music is ludicrous.
It doesn’t matter whether it was legal or illegal we are judging their actions by today’s standards.

Newton first went to sea with his father before he was press ganged. Some years later he voluntarily signed up as first mate on a slave ship, he wasn’t forced into it. He gave up being a captain, after suffering a stroke, but still invested in buying and selling slaves.

Colston had died before Newton was even born, he gave away his fortune 60 years before William Wilberforce was even born! Colston lived in an age when slavery was legal so why is he being judged to a different criteria?

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:23 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:50 pm
It doesn’t matter whether it was legal or illegal we are judging their actions by today’s standards.

Newton first went to sea with his father before he was press ganged. Some years later he voluntarily signed up as first mate on a slave ship, he wasn’t forced into it. He gave up being a captain, after suffering a stroke, but still invested in buying and selling slaves.

Colston had died before Newton was even born, he gave away his fortune 60 years before William Wilberforce was even born! Colston lived in an age when slavery was legal so why is he being judged to a different criteria?
I've already explained that, and I note that you haven't come back on the point about Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris.
Newton very publicly acknowledged the "sins of his youth" and thereafter did all he could to make up for it by joining with Wilberforce and the abolitionists to confront and challenge his past. Colston also lived at a time when slavery was legal but he took advantage of this in a brutal and barbaric way and - importantly - never repented. Anyone who can't see the difference between a penitent who apologises for and tries to make up for their past, and someone who is unrepentant is pretty much condemning everyone who's ever lived.
Many of us on this board did things in the past that were inappropriate - even illegal - and that we now deeply regret, but we don't expect to be tarred by it forever.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:34 pm

Can anyone find a link in which actual real people are quoted saying it should be banned? No? But there are plenty of links in which our part time pm is calling for it not to be banned. The courageous Johnson tilting at straw man windmills. It’s so good that nobody falls for media manipulation here.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Blackrod » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:20 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:08 pm
Quite a bold claim.
Not at all.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:23 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:23 pm
I've already explained that, and I note that you haven't come back on the point about Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris.
Newton very publicly acknowledged the "sins of his youth" and thereafter did all he could to make up for it by joining with Wilberforce and the abolitionists to confront and challenge his past. Colston also lived at a time when slavery was legal but he took advantage of this in a brutal and barbaric way and - importantly - never repented. Anyone who can't see the difference between a penitent who apologises for and tries to make up for their past, and someone who is unrepentant is pretty much condemning everyone who's ever lived.
Many of us on this board did things in the past that were inappropriate - even illegal - and that we now deeply regret, but we don't expect to be tarred by it forever.
Why would Colston repent, he died over 100 years before slavery was abolished, was there even an abolition movement in 1720? He was a man of his time and gave away all his money to charity. You are asking Colston to repent something that wasn’t considered to be wrong. He was dead 50 years before the first abolition group was formed.

Newton got involved with the abolition movement in 1788, 30+ years after he’d retired as a slave ship captain and 15 years after the Somersett Case.

The point about Glitter and Harris has nothing to do with legality but the moral position. If we are judging people on what they actually did then they should be judged on how we perceive their actions now - we don’t listen to their music (like Michael Jackson) because their actions were abhorrent.

As for brutal and barbaric Colston was an investor, Newton actually shackled the poor wretches and captained the ships from which dead slaves were dumped overboard and the females raped!! He had a lot to repent.

If we are going to revise history and pick and choose who is demonised let’s look at everyone involved, not just the rich white men that are easy targets for the (as some would say) Marxist organisers of the BLM movement.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:53 pm

Deleted
Last edited by nil_desperandum on Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:56 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:23 pm
Why would Colston repent, he died over 100 years before slavery was abolished, was there even an abolition movement in 1720? He was a man of his time and gave away all his money to charity. You are asking Colston to repent something that wasn’t considered to be wrong. He was dead 50 years before the first abolition group was formed.

Newton got involved with the abolition movement in 1788, 30+ years after he’d retired as a slave ship captain and 15 years after the Somersett Case.

The point about Glitter and Harris has nothing to do with legality but the moral position. If we are judging people on what they actually did then they should be judged on how we perceive their actions now - we don’t listen to their music (like Michael Jackson) because their actions were abhorrent.

As for brutal and barbaric Colston was an investor, Newton actually shackled the poor wretches and captained the ships from which dead slaves were dumped overboard and the females raped!! He had a lot to repent.

If we are going to revise history and pick and choose who is demonised let’s look at everyone involved, not just the rich white men that are easy targets for the (as some would say) Marxist organisers of the BLM movement.
Talking of revisionism, there's a great deal in this post that is either inaccurate, out of context or unbalanced. I'm not going to pick through every sentence, but just to pick out one: you fail to acknowledge that it is claimed that Colston had 84,000 Africans transported to the Caribbean of which over 20% perished on the journey. So as I said brutal and barbaric. ( I didn't attempt to defend Newton's early life).
You also correctly point out that Colston didn't repent as he died over 100 years before slavery was abolished.
Slavery was, (to use your words) - "something that wasn’t considered to be wrong" in Colston's time, but the same held true in Newton's time, but you failed to acknowledge that.
It was 30 years before the Abolition Movement was founded, almost 20 before the Somersett Case and 53 before the Abolition Act of 1807 when Newton converted to Christianity (1754) and began to question his previous moral code. Colston could have done the same 50 years earlier had he - similarly- grown to believe that slavery was wrong.
When The Committee for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was finally set up in 1787, Newton was a contributor and the following year, (34 years after he had retired from the slave trade), Newton broke a long silence on the subject with the publication of a forceful pamphlet Thoughts Upon the Slave Trade, in which he described the horrific conditions of the slave ships during the Middle Passage. He apologised for:
"a confession, which ... comes too late ... It will always be a subject of humiliating reflection to me, that I was once an active instrument in a business at which my heart now shudders."


He had copies sent to every MP, and the pamphlet sold so well that it swiftly required reprinting.
He also wrote his own epiphet for his memorial stone:
JOHN NEWTON. Clerk. Once an infidel and libertine a servant of slaves in Africa was by the rich mercy of our LORD and SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST preserved, restored, pardoned and appointed to preach the faith he had long laboured to destroy. Near 16 years as Curate of this parish and 28 years as Rector of St. Mary Woolnoth.


It is this humility and penitence that separates him from Colston and some others.
"Amazing Grace" isn't the only hymn penned by Newton that is still sung regularly in churches of all denominations, and I will guarantee that when singing resumes in religious buildings they will continue to be sung unapologetically by congregations the length and breadth of the country.
You appear to be the only one who is unhappy about this.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Alanstevensonsgloves » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:35 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:17 pm
Damo,

I have Jewish blood on my Dad's side of the family.
I guess that C&J has deliberately said 'father' instead of 'mother' to see the reaction. I am sure he knows his Israeli 'Law of Return' 😁
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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Stayingup » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:39 am

Flashback. Four Pennies (and others) Singing Black Girl. Could it be re-released now? BLM would target something related for sure to be dismantlesdand destroyed.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Stayingup » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:45 am

Burnley Ace wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:23 pm
Why would Colston repent, he died over 100 years before slavery was abolished, was there even an abolition movement in 1720? He was a man of his time and gave away all his money to charity. You are asking Colston to repent something that wasn’t considered to be wrong. He was dead 50 years before the first abolition group was formed.

Newton got involved with the abolition movement in 1788, 30+ years after he’d retired as a slave ship captain and 15 years after the Somersett Case.

The point about Glitter and Harris has nothing to do with legality but the moral position. If we are judging people on what they actually did then they should be judged on how we perceive their actions now - we don’t listen to their music (like Michael Jackson) because their actions were abhorrent.

As for brutal and barbaric Colston was an investor, Newton actually shackled the poor wretches and captained the ships from which dead slaves were dumped overboard and the females raped!! He had a lot to repent.

If we are going to revise history and pick and choose who is demonised let’s look at everyone involved, not just the rich white men that are easy targets for the (as some would say) Marxist organisers of the BLM movement.
Interestingly about the time that transportation of slaves from Africa to the Carribean was occuring (not to Arabia because that had been going on before) transporation of white , often petty criminals, to Australia was occuring. Should the UK be aplogozing to the Aussies for that outrage?

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Spike » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:51 pm

It is part of our heritage.

The flower of Scotland is about war where will it end if we give up to these galhoots?

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by dsr » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:13 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:45 am
Interestingly about the time that transportation of slaves from Africa to the Carribean was occuring (not to Arabia because that had been going on before) transporation of white , often petty criminals, to Australia was occuring. Should the UK be aplogozing to the Aussies for that outrage?
If any living Briton was involved in transporting any living Australian, then yes, he or she should apologise. Other than that, it's all a bit futile.

Perhaps if instead of apologising, they gave the Australians the opportunity to put things right by coming to live in sunny Lancashire? ;)

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by Wile E Coyote » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:45 am

please god no, cannot abide those whining Australian accents. their misuse of vowels is worse than any previous national outrage imaginable.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by houseboy » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:34 am

Just ban Black Lives Matter... problem solved.

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Re: Swing Low....

Post by nil_desperandum » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:39 am

Prince Harry has intervened now. He's really lost his way, his commonsense, and presumably his advisers.

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