Labour's Election post-mortum .....

[Stanbill05]

Momentum has made me politically homeless and left me looking for the least worst option. Purge required before I consider voting red again. I’m from white working class roots and feel like I’m being held responsible for the ills of history at the moment, despite my ancestors being exploited as badly as anybody else. Labour need to be very careful how they play this and need to distance themselves from the usual Guardian type tripe if they want to be electable.

[Inchy]

I believe that the vast majority of people sit in the centre of the political playing field.


Most of us have some left leaning views and most of us have some right leaning views.

The way we vote is dependent on what matters most to us

Clearly there is no appetite for a government that swings too far left or right. A blind man on a galloping horse could see that when Corbyn was ‘leading’ labour.

Hopefully with Starmer labour have someone who has returned more to the centre and also someone willing to listen to those traditional labour voters who may have right leaning views as well, rather than simply telling them to bugger off to the tories

[summitclaret]

What the hard left don't get is that when they say it's the media, they are calling their historic voters stupid. What a way to work.

[Clarets4me]

What the hard left don't get is that when they say it's the media, they are calling their historic voters stupid. What a way to work.

A shopkeeper has a shop, which has a regular footfall of loyal customers. One day, he changes his stock quite significantly, to try and attract a small but vocal number of people who demanded he starting selling stuff they want. He is surprised to see that many of his old customers are now passing his shop to go to another further along the street, that are now providing what he used to.
In an attempt to win back their custom, he stands at the door of his shop, haranguing his lost customers, " Look at my new stuff, it's better for you .. the trouble with you lot is that you're too stupid & set in your ways to know it, you're just thick ! But if you don't like it, you can p**s off up to that other place ! " ....

[AndrewJB]

AndrewJB

Re your comment that Corbyn’s and Labour failure to win the last election was down to the media influencing voters not to vote for Corbyn.

From myself, an ordinary guy on the street to my relatives, friends, & work colleagues, we all said the same thing, that we wouldn’t vote for Labour because of Corbyn. Not one of us said that we weren’t voting for Labour because' it said this in the newspaper about Corbyn’ or’ it said that on TV about Corbyn’.

I live in South Yorkshire and I consider myself reasonably well educated. I have a MSc degree, I’m a Chartered Engineer and I work as a Professional Engineer. I didn’t need the help of newspapers or commentators on TV or radio to help me make up my mind that I wasn’t going to vote for Corbyn and subsequently not for Labour who I had voted for religiously for the past 50 years. I listened to Corbyn many times when he spoke in Parliament and I watched numerous interviews of him and it became obvious to me that Corbyn would never be Prime Minister. He doesn’t look the part, he doesn’t act the part, and, in my view, he really doesn’t want the part. He’s happy to be in permanent opposition as that appears to me to be the extent of his political capability. Add to that, his motley crew of a Shadow Cabinet who didn’t give me and others ‘confidence’ that they had the capability to be Government Ministers and able to make the 'big' Government decisions. Also, the way that Labour fannied around on Brexit where Corbyn sat on the fence afraid to make a public decision on which way Labour were to go. On Brexit, Corbyn showed no leadership capability whatsoever. For me, the man is unfit to be Prime Minister of this country and is not Prime Minister material, full stop.

It’s admirable that you defend Corbyn for his heavy defeat in the election, but where I live and in the world that I inhabit, that kind of slobbering devotion for a failed Labour Leader who lost the Northern Labour heartlands to Conservatives raises guffaws big time. Come into the real world to see what ex Labour voters have to say about Corbyn and I’d be extremely surprised if any of them mentioned that they didn’t vote for Corbyn, ‘because of the media’. Even Labour’s Shadow Health Minister, Jonathon Ashworth, on the eve of the General Election was quoted as saying that Corbyn was toxic and Labour would lose the election because of him.

As I mentioned, I was a serial Labour voter but their last 3 leaders before the present one – Brown, Milliband, and Corbyn, were, in my view, all political duffers. Merging these 3 duffers together, you wouldn’t get a decent MP never mind finding an individual capable of winning a General Election for Labour.

Lastly, as commented several times in the above threads, that it took 4 months to produce this report. That’s a ridiculous amount of time and no doubt expense too. The Report Committee (which had Labour Leader failure Milliband on the team) had only to visit the lost Labour heartlands and speak to the locals and the report would have written itself in a far, far shorter time than 4 months.

How does someone “look and sound” like a prime minister? In light of the scruffy lying idiot we have there now, it’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard. Johnson (and Trump) proves that nobody is unelectable.

Not looking or sounding like a prime minister is exactly the kind of fact free rubbish the papers printed every day.

Corbyn was toxic at the last election. Corbyn had been attacked in every possible way for over four years. Join the dots.

I’m not insulting you or anyone else by pointing this out. You don’t have to be a Sun reader. If you walk past a newsagents and every day the headlines scream “Corbyn is Satan” - then eventually you might come to think that. Everyone is affected by advertising of one sort or another.

[Fenwick]

How come Andrew can see through the brain washing from the media?

[AndrewJB]

How come Andrew can see through the brain washing from the media?

Why do some people refuse to see it?
http://www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-communic ... emy-corbyn

[Fenwick]

Why do some people refuse to see it?
http://www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-communic ... emy-corbyn

Are you the Andrew from my A level politics class? Genuine question! Nelson & Colne college 1993. He was a true believer.

[Herts Clarets]

How does someone “look and sound” like a prime minister? In light of the scruffy lying idiot we have there now, it’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard. Johnson (and Trump) proves that nobody is unelectable.

Faced with the choice between the scruffy, lying idiot and the alternative, the electorate delivered the biggest defeat in living memory for Corbyn. This somewhat debunks your theory...

[claretonthecoast1882]

How does someone “look and sound” like a prime minister? In light of the scruffy lying idiot we have there now, it’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard. Johnson (and Trump) proves that nobody is unelectable.

Not looking or sounding like a prime minister is exactly the kind of fact free rubbish the papers printed every day.

Corbyn was toxic at the last election. Corbyn had been attacked in every possible way for over four years. Join the dots.

I’m not insulting you or anyone else by pointing this out. You don’t have to be a Sun reader. If you walk past a newsagents and every day the headlines scream “Corbyn is Satan” - then eventually you might come to think that. Everyone is affected by advertising of one sort or another.

Interesting that you whinge about the attacks on Corbyn, yet you do the exact same to Johnson, at least you are consistent in being a hypocrite (another con payment on its way ?) did you vote labour at the last election ?

[Spijed]

Interesting that you whinge about the attacks on Corbyn, yet you do the exact same to Johnson, at least you are consistent in being a hypocrite (another con payment on its way ?) did you vote labour at the last election ?

The Daily Mail criticised Corbyn for not wearing a tie yet have never done the same to Johnson despite him wearing badly fitting crumpled suits.

Where's the consistency?

[claretonthecoast1882]

The Daily Mail criticised Corbyn for not wearing a tie yet have never done the same to Johnson despite him wearing badly fitting crumpled suits.

Where's the consistency?

Probably better off asking someone at the Daily Mail the answer to that

[Bigbopper]

The Daily Mail criticised Corbyn for not wearing a tie yet have never done the same to Johnson despite him wearing badly fitting crumpled suits.

Where's the consistency?

So the Labour Party were annihilated at the polling booths because Corbyn failed to wear a tie

[aggi]

A shopkeeper has a shop, which has a regular footfall of loyal customers. One day, he changes his stock quite significantly, to try and attract a small but vocal number of people who demanded he starting selling stuff they want. He is surprised to see that many of his old customers are now passing his shop to go to another further along the street, that are now providing what he used to.
In an attempt to win back their custom, he stands at the door of his shop, haranguing his lost customers, " Look at my new stuff, it's better for you .. the trouble with you lot is that you're too stupid & set in your ways to know it, you're just thick ! But if you don't like it, you can p**s off up to that other place ! " ....

A shopkeeper has a shop, which has a regular footfall of loyal customers. One day, he changes his stock a little, to try and attract even more people. He is surprised to see that many of his customers are now passing his shop to go to the supermarket further along the street.
On further investigation he discovers that the supermarket is getting a load of free advertising from newspapers that they are giving free products to and the newspapers are also running stories on how all of his products are out of date and mouldy.
He tries to tell people that isn't the case but by that point it has become common knowledge.

If there's one thing the past few years have taught me, it's that politics analogies are ********.

[Burnley Ace]

Why do some people refuse to see it?
http://www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-communic ... emy-corbyn

Ridicule, scorn, distortion of “voice” and associating with extremism- doesn’t seem to have done Trump any harm.

[Spijed]

So the Labour Party were annihilated at the polling booths because Corbyn failed to wear a tie

The papers destroyed Michael Foot because they thought he wore a donkey jacket at the Cenotaph. Which it wasn't but it destroyed him.

[Burnley Ace]

The papers destroyed Michael Foot because they thought he wore a donkey jacket at the Cenotaph. Which it wasn't but it destroyed him.

and Kinnock falling over in Brighton. Given how easily swayed by these peripheral issues - is universal suffrage the most effective system?

[summitclaret]

Andrew even if you are right about the agenda ofsome of the press, there are plenty of papers that are left leading and don't hold back on attacking the Tories. Papers circulation continues to drop.

There is also a left bias in the BBC and Channel 4. What about the many who think that most teachers are left leaning and in particular university lecturers. The potential for them to influence young minds is always there. Not saying any do because I have no evidence.

[Clarets4me]

The papers destroyed Michael Foot because they thought he wore a donkey jacket at the Cenotaph. Which it wasn't but it destroyed him.

I think Labour's 1983 manifesto did that job .... the " Donkey Jacket " was a side issue !

[summitclaret]

I think Labour's 1983 manifesto did that job .... the " Donkey Jacket " was a side issue !

Quite right. This country will never vote for far left policies. In particular unilateral nuclear disarmament and giving the union's the ability to hold the country to ransom like in the 1970's.

By the time of the next GE, it will almost 50 years since this country put in a Labour party not lead by Blair. Maybe be Andrew and those like minded should think about why.

[thomaspaine]

What the hard left don't get is that when they say it's the media, they are calling their historic voters stupid. What a way to work.

No you are wrong. They are not calling the Electorate stupid but rather misinformed..... and that this media bias, being grossly unfair and not fit for this great country of ours, makes a mockery of our democracy. Its no wonder that people are often misinformed given the weight of bias in favour of the rich and powerful throughout our media. This of course is why we have a Tory Government.

[summitclaret]

So why did the country vote for the centralist Blair 3 times? I seem to remember some if these so called biased papers backing Blair.

[aggi]

So why did the country vote for the centralist Blair 3 times? I seem to remember some if these so called biased papers backing Blair.

Isn't that reinforcing the argument? The papers backed Blair (according to tales at the time the agreement for the Sun to back Blair was brokered at a Burnley game) and a labour leader was elected.

[summitclaret]

Isn't that reinforcing the argument? The papers backed Blair (according to tales at the time the agreement for the Sun to back Blair was brokered at a Burnley game) and a labour leader was elected.

It's policy that matters. Extreme left or right will never win a GE. Never has and never will. The hard left can't blame themselves for failure so blame the media and in so doing further alienate the very people they claim to represent. It's hilarious. I think Starmer's Brexit approach was madness, but he has the potential to begin a fight back.

[AndrewJB]

It's policy that matters. Extreme left or right will never win a GE. Never has and never will. The hard left can't blame themselves for failure so blame the media and in so doing further alienate the very people they claim to represent. It's hilarious. I think Starmer's Brexit approach was madness, but he has the potential to begin a fight back.

You’re calling Labour policies “far left” (which rightwing papers have also done), when Labours last two manifestos have been to the right of Tory manifestos under Ted Heath. They’re no different to Germany’s ruling centre right coalition policies. The term “far left” is entirely inaccurate in describing Labours last manifestos.

So you either think it’s far left in error, in which case you’ve been misinformed, or you know it isn’t actually far left but you’re calling it that to misinform people.

[KateR]

Anyway, even if they took 4 months it seems they came to a conclusion held by most, not sure if the conclusion published was due to the media during this last 4 months but I don't think so.

What is more important is what they do with the conclusion during the next 4 years and will they provide a credible opposition with a manifesto that can be believed by the majority in order to swing votes back.

I think the majority can understand the virus and the global impact on the economy, much will depend upon the present handling of the situation over the next couple of years by the present Gov. and how many people remember the implementation of furlough and did it benefit them and the family.

[AndrewJB]

Interesting that you whinge about the attacks on Corbyn, yet you do the exact same to Johnson, at least you are consistent in being a hypocrite (another con payment on its way ?) did you vote labour at the last election ?

There’s nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws of someone or something - as long as it’s honest. I don’t come on here with photoshopped pictures of Johnson saying “look, Johnson beats up grannies.” Those papers went far beyond what is reasonable, and undermined our democracy by denying a voice to the democratically chosen leader of the opposition. If his ideas were so bad why did those papers misrepresent or not report them at all? And let’s be homest, it wasn’t the newspapers, but the billionaire owners of those newspapers who didn’t trust the plebs to make the right choice.

[Colburn_Claret]

There’s nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws of someone or something - as long as it’s honest. I don’t come on here with photoshopped pictures of Johnson saying “look, Johnson beats up grannies.” Those papers went far beyond what is reasonable, and undermined our democracy by denying a voice to the democratically chosen leader of the opposition. If his ideas were so bad why did those papers misrepresent or not report them at all? And let’s be homest, it wasn’t the newspapers, but the billionaire owners of those newspapers who didn’t trust the plebs to make the right choice.

The papers that said he shared platforms with terrorists, stated facts, not bias.
He wont respect the fallen, fact.
The truth is the press don't need to create bias against Corbyn, he was gift wrapped. Every anti British gobful of shite they quoted, was fact.
Only a fool would want the country run by someone who doesn't like the country.

Unless of course they hate the country as well....

[aggi]

The papers that said he shared platforms with terrorists, stated facts, not bias.
He wont respect the fallen, fact.
The truth is the press don't need to create bias against Corbyn, he was gift wrapped. Every anti British gobful of shite they quoted, was fact.
Only a fool would want the country run by someone who doesn't like the country.

Unless of course they hate the country as well....

Can you elaborate on this fact?

[AndrewJB]

The papers that said he shared platforms with terrorists, stated facts, not bias.
He wont respect the fallen, fact.
The truth is the press don't need to create bias against Corbyn, he was gift wrapped. Every anti British gobful of shite they quoted, was fact.
Only a fool would want the country run by someone who doesn't like the country.

Unless of course they hate the country as well....

You're proving my point. It was often asserted in rightwing papers that Corbyn (and therefore anyone who liked his ideas) hates Britain. If he hated the country, why would he become an MP? Surely if he hated the country he would at least have had his snout in the trough during the expenses scandal, but not at all. It's just another evidence-free opinion repeated so often you came to believe it.

Corbyn was famously anti-war, so why would you choose to believe that he was in league with terrorists, rather than his explanation that he was seeking peace?

Strangely the one thing you never bring up is the time Corbyn spent a weekend at the home of an ex KGB officer, without even taking his personal protection unit - who also guard against blackmail situations. But I can't imagine Corbyn doing anything he'd get blackmailed over, and he's a backbencher again anyway.

[Rowls]

Thanks goodness for a bit of light relief on this thread today.

[Rowls]

Who'd have thought it, eh?

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/low-incom ... h-politics

Report says that the Conservative and Labour partys have flipped their support base. Middle class metropolitans are now supporting Labour and the working classes are voting Conservative.

It's been coming a long, long time.

[AndrewJB]

Who'd have thought it, eh?

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/low-incom ... h-politics

Report says that the Conservative and Labour partys have flipped their support base. Middle class metropolitans are now supporting Labour and the working classes are voting Conservative.

It's been coming a long, long time.

The Tories have been in power for ten years during which time the cost of living has gone up while wages have been stagnant, so most people are poorer. Public services have been cut back, and money for local councils - especially those with a lot of working class inhabitants - has been heavily slashed. The wealth of the richest has trebled. Is it that low income people are uniquely masochistic? Or could it be the government and their press allies have successfully distracted low income people by blaming the EU and immigrants?

[Paul Waine]

The Tories have been in power for ten years during which time the cost of living has gone up while wages have been stagnant, so most people are poorer. Public services have been cut back, and money for local councils - especially those with a lot of working class inhabitants - has been heavily slashed. The wealth of the richest has trebled. Is it that low income people are uniquely masochistic? Or could it be the government and their press allies have successfully distracted low income people by blaming the EU and immigrants?

Hi Andrew, do you wonder why those who you say have got richer are now supporting Labour?

[AndrewJB]

Hi Andrew, do you wonder why those who you say have got richer are now supporting Labour?

I doubt many if any do. The study referred to middle class people moving to Labour as working class people move away. The Tories are still funded mostly from City money, but have also persuaded enough lower income people to vote for them to win some “red wall” seats. Labour voters - according to the study - are roughly split between lower income and higher income, in terms of numbers, but that’s not going to be many people In the top .01%.

What the Tories have managed to do in terms of winning over those lower income voters is quite remarkable. Austerity hit them the hardest. I think back in the day union reps would have played a role in getting the social message across, as well as getting people out to vote, which is likely one of the reasons the Tories have continued their assaults on them. “United we stand and divided we fall” is still true today.

It will be interesting to see how the government tries to keep those voters on side. Brexit tubthumping wont put food on tables, and the coming recession will require the kind of interventionist state most Tories see as the work of Satan.

[Devils_Advocate]

Signs the the Torys hold over the working class red wall seats is wavering only months into this govts tenure

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... eal-brexit

[jrgbfc]

I don't buy this idea that lots of working class Northerners have become Tories. The last election was a one off, people held their noses and voted Tory due to Brexit and a hatred of Corbyn.
With the world economy likely to tank over the next few years and the potential for Brexit to be a complete disaster as long as Keir Starmer doesn't do anything stupid they'll be back voting for Labour at the next election.

[AndrewJB]

Signs the the Torys hold over the working class red wall seats is wavering only months into this govts tenure

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... eal-brexit

I don’t think they care. They have their majority, and they have it until 2025. Cummings remaining in post is an example. They’ll do whatever they like , and their rightwing media propaganda arm (increasingly including the BBC), will cover their tracks. I’d love to be wrong, but I think we’re in for a hard time.

The Tory press will continue attacking Starmer until they make him look like Miliband