Labour's Election post-mortum .....

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Clarets4me
Posts: 4948
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 2307 times
Has Liked: 1033 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Clarets4me » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:10 am

Published this morning, four months of extensive research, focus groups, interviews and analysis, poured over by 15 senior Labour figures, apparently from all sections of the party have concluded that ....

1) Corbyn was not trusted to be Prime Minister
2) Their Brexit policy was confusing and unpopular in their traditional heartlands
3) The manifesto was seen as " undeliverable "
4) There was a dysfunctional " toxic " culture around the leadership

Hardly startling revelations to anybody who follows politics .... 8-)
This user liked this post: KateR

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:16 am

In summary.

The 2 main issues were :

The then leader and the brexit policy of the current leader.

summitclaret
Posts: 3891
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 826 times
Has Liked: 1307 times
Location: burnley

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by summitclaret » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:17 am

Doesn't sound like Burgon gets it though.

http://news.sky.com/story/a-toxic-combi ... n-12010091

Clarets4me
Posts: 4948
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 2307 times
Has Liked: 1033 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Clarets4me » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:42 am

summitclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:17 am
Doesn't sound like Burgon gets it though.

http://news.sky.com/story/a-toxic-combi ... n-12010091
Unless they have a remarkable recovery in Scotland, Labour would have to increase their seats in England and Wales by 60% to win the next election, a feat never before achieved ..... this would include overturning Jacob Rees Mogg's 14,729 majority in North East Somerset, among many others !

claretonthecoast1882
Posts: 10088
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm
Been Liked: 4161 times
Has Liked: 57 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:43 am

andrewjb is on his way
These 4 users liked this post: FactualFrank Damo bobinho KateR

Mala591
Posts: 1887
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:02 pm
Been Liked: 681 times
Has Liked: 428 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Mala591 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:46 am

5). They didn't have an immigration policy

FactualFrank
Posts: 25445
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:46 am
Been Liked: 6930 times
Has Liked: 11660 times
Location: Leeds

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by FactualFrank » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:48 am

Not sure it matters. Tories remained, so the country lost anyway.

Burnley Ace
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
Been Liked: 651 times
Has Liked: 2879 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:57 am

Clarets4me wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:10 am
Published this morning, four months of extensive research, focus groups, interviews and analysis, poured over by 15 senior Labour figures, apparently from all sections of the party have concluded that ....

1) Corbyn was not trusted to be Prime Minister
2) Their Brexit policy was confusing and unpopular in their traditional heartlands
3) The manifesto was seen as " undeliverable "
4) There was a dysfunctional " toxic " culture around the leadership

Hardly startling revelations to anybody who follows politics .... 8-)
And it took 4 months? 1 hour in any northern “working men’s” club and you would have the same conclusion
This user liked this post: Colburn_Claret

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:16 am

To summerise: no point in electing a leader because if a significant portion of the party aristocracy don’t agree even after two elections, they’ll do whatever it takes to ensure that leader fails.

Clarets4me
Posts: 4948
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 2307 times
Has Liked: 1033 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Clarets4me » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:28 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:16 am
To summerise: no point in electing a leader because if a significant portion of the party aristocracy don’t agree even after two elections, they’ll do whatever it takes to ensure that leader fails.
You'll perhaps know better than me, but I understand that many of the party's committees and ruling bodies are still controlled by the " Corbyn/Milne " wing of the party, at least for the time being. However, with Johnson's current majority, Labour have the luxury of time on their hands to present a more electable proposition next time around ....

Burnley Ace
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
Been Liked: 651 times
Has Liked: 2879 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:31 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:16 am
To summerise: no point in electing a leader because if a significant portion of the party aristocracy don’t agree even after two elections, they’ll do whatever it takes to ensure that leader fails.
Could it be that the Party aristocracy actually do know what they are talking about and winning a general election isn’t the same as winning a party election? If only Labour members had listened then they might have won an election against the weakest most decisive most ineffectual etc etc Tory Party ever seen in the history of modern politics in this country.

Billy Balfour
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 3:00 pm
Been Liked: 1857 times
Has Liked: 652 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Billy Balfour » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:37 am

A lot has changed. Labour's NEC is no longer controlled by Corbyn/Milne wing of the party. Also Starmer got his man for the most senior employee of the party (General Secretary). TBH I'm suspired at how quickly the hard left imploded. The leadership and the NEC, along with the General Secretary, were their main tools of control and now they've lost all three.

dermotdermot
Posts: 3479
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 660 times
Has Liked: 205 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by dermotdermot » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:57 am

Four months to come to a conclusion that was blatantly obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense. Corbyn and Co have dragged the Labour Party down to the depths of despair, from which it will take an eternity to recover. At a time when perhaps a realistically moderate party was needed more than ever. So incredibly selfish and stupid.
This user liked this post: bobinho

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by tiger76 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:30 pm

Good article in the NS, pretty lengthy though so i'll post the link if anyone wants to readhttps://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... son-polls

Starmer's numbers far outstrip his party, and until that changes Labour won't make progress, i agree with many KS has been impressive in holding the government to account, far more than JC was in his final few months, the challenge for him is to mould a shadow cabinet that the public believe is up to the task of replacing this present bunch, if he can do that he'll be PM in 4 years time.

The public are crying out for a sensible centrist party with a modicum of competence, they don't expect miracles, just basic governance will suffice.

Oh! and honesty and integrity goes a long way, this current cabinet is the worst I've seen in my lifetime, and i'm 44.
This user liked this post: Somethingfishy

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by claretandy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:41 pm

They told anyone who disagreed with their Marxist world view to eff off and join the Tories, so they did.
This user liked this post: Lowbankclaret

Somethingfishy
Posts: 2570
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 719 times
Has Liked: 510 times
Location: Padiham

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Somethingfishy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:50 pm

dermotdermot wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:57 am
Four months to come to a conclusion that was blatantly obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense. Corbyn and Co have dragged the Labour Party down to the depths of despair, from which it will take an eternity to recover. At a time when perhaps a realistically moderate party was needed more than ever. So incredibly selfish and stupid.
They have lost touch with the common working man.
I've said the same for a long time..but it is all the fault of the media and their conspiracy against Corbyn...apparently :roll:
This user liked this post: KateR

Somethingfishy
Posts: 2570
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 719 times
Has Liked: 510 times
Location: Padiham

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Somethingfishy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:52 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:30 pm
Good article in the NS, pretty lengthy though so i'll post the link if anyone wants to readhttps://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... son-polls

Starmer's numbers far outstrip his party, and until that changes Labour won't make progress, i agree with many KS has been impressive in holding the government to account, far more than JC was in his final few months, the challenge for him is to mould a shadow cabinet that the public believe is up to the task of replacing this present bunch, if he can do that he'll be PM in 4 years time.

The public are crying out for a sensible centrist party with a modicum of competence, they don't expect miracles, just basic governance will suffice.

Oh! and honesty and integrity goes a long way, this current cabinet is the worst I've seen in my lifetime, and i'm 44.
You obviously don't remember any of Thatchers cabinets then? They weren't as much incompetent as pure evil...and they looked it!

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by tiger76 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:25 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:52 pm
You obviously don't remember any of Thatchers cabinets then? They weren't as much incompetent as pure evil...and they looked it!
I was still at school then, so i was more interested in girls and football than politics, i'm well aware of the Thatcher years in retrospect, and the iron lady certainly splits opinion that's for sure.

You bring to my mind the famous Spitting Image sketch.

Margaret Thatcher is treating her Cabinet to a meal at a restaurant.]
Waitress: Would you like to order, sir?
Thatcher: Yes. I will have the steak.
Waitress: How would you like it?
Thatcher: Oh, raw, please.
Waitress: And what about the Vegetables?
Thatcher: Oh, they'll [The Cabinet] have the same as me!

But again she benefited from a Labour party which was riven in splits, enabling her and the Conservatives to land huge majorities with less than half the vote, and Labour in 83 had a left-wing manifesto, and as in 2019 it went down like a lead balloon with the electorate, the only time Labour has achieved outright majorities in the last 40 years was during the Blair/Brown years, and Starmer will be well aware of this, hence why he's trying to steer the party towards the centre.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:50 pm
They have lost touch with the common working man.
I've said the same for a long time..but it is all the fault of the media and their conspiracy against Corbyn...apparently :roll:
You’ve taken a statement often repeated by rightwing writers and opinion people - that Labour has lost touch with the common working man, yet you’re doubtful of media influence? Everything in the last manifesto was good for the common working man. So if that is genuinely your opinion, then tell us how they’ve lost touch.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:41 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:31 am
Could it be that the Party aristocracy actually do know what they are talking about and winning a general election isn’t the same as winning a party election? If only Labour members had listened then they might have won an election against the weakest most decisive most ineffectual etc etc Tory Party ever seen in the history of modern politics in this country.
Either your for democracy or against it. Anyone for democracy - regardless of your political stripes - should be affronted at senior people in a party working to overturn the voice of the members. And as for the blitz of relentless media attacks on Corbyn, the media owners were terrified of his policies, but attacked him rather than those policies. Rather than informing, the media worked to prevent people from having a choice.
This user liked this post: longsidepies

Burnley Ace
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
Been Liked: 651 times
Has Liked: 2879 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:51 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:41 pm
Either your for democracy or against it. Anyone for democracy - regardless of your political stripes - should be affronted at senior people in a party working to overturn the voice of the members. And as for the blitz of relentless media attacks on Corbyn, the media owners were terrified of his policies, but attacked him rather than those policies. Rather than informing, the media worked to prevent people from having a choice.
So being for democracy you will now be supporting Brexit irrespective that wiser and more experienced people are telling you that it’s a bad idea?

summitclaret
Posts: 3891
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 826 times
Has Liked: 1307 times
Location: burnley

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by summitclaret » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:52 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pm
You’ve taken a statement often repeated by rightwing writers and opinion people - that Labour has lost touch with the common working man, yet you’re doubtful of media influence? Everything in the last manifesto was good for the common working man. So if that is genuinely your opinion, then tell us how they’ve lost touch.
Simples. It's because they voted Tory/Brexit in droves. The marxists and trots need to form their own party and unite the country in their heads.
These 2 users liked this post: Somethingfishy Vino blanco

Clarets4me
Posts: 4948
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 2307 times
Has Liked: 1033 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Clarets4me » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:44 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pm
You’ve taken a statement often repeated by rightwing writers and opinion people - that Labour has lost touch with the common working man, yet you’re doubtful of media influence? Everything in the last manifesto was good for the common working man. So if that is genuinely your opinion, then tell us how they’ve lost touch.
They were just too stupid to realize what was good for them, unfortunately ! :roll: :roll: :roll:

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:12 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:51 pm
So being for democracy you will now be supporting Brexit irrespective that wiser and more experienced people are telling you that it’s a bad idea?
I don’t have a job helping to implement Brexit while secretly attempting to prevent it. There was nothing wrong with party members not liking or disagreeing with Corbyn, It’s those who worked for the party in senior posts and actively worked toward Labour electoral defeats.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:17 pm

summitclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:52 pm
Simples. It's because they voted Tory/Brexit in droves. The marxists and trots need to form their own party and unite the country in their heads.
In droves? No. Working class people were just as divided as everyone else:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/03/a ... m-and-why/

Somethingfishy
Posts: 2570
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 719 times
Has Liked: 510 times
Location: Padiham

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Somethingfishy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:21 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pm
You’ve taken a statement often repeated by rightwing writers and opinion people - that Labour has lost touch with the common working man, yet you’re doubtful of media influence? Everything in the last manifesto was good for the common working man. So if that is genuinely your opinion, then tell us how they’ve lost touch.
No.. that is for the Labour party to work out and hopefully unlike yourself they won't continually blame the rightwing press for doing what they do naturally anyway. You should be explaining to me how the common working man rejected all the freebies and unicorns that Corbyn was chucking our way and still not only didn't vote for him..they voted for the Tories. Is the media pull that strong that they will ignore these freebies and enticements? Perhaps as is more likely they didn't believe they were deliverable? From the findings, the Labour party think it was an issue. I agree and have agreed with you in the past that Corbyn was overly harshly treated but on the flip side the Labour party put a gun to its own head and it was fully loaded. The media merely pulled the trigger.

boatshed bill
Posts: 15108
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3138 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by boatshed bill » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 pm

I'm a life-long (well since I grew up) Labour voter. I've been a trade union member,still am a Labour party member. I firmly believe that the values under which the Labour Party was originally formed have minimal appeal in our modern society.
Can't see Labour increasing their vote except by doing something similar to what Blair did...
These 5 users liked this post: Hipper Lowbankclaret Colburn_Claret bobinho KateR

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:23 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:21 pm
No.. that is for the Labour party to work out and hopefully unlike yourself they won't continually blame the rightwing press for doing what they do naturally anyway. You should be explaining to me how the common working man rejected all the freebies and unicorns that Corbyn was chucking our way and still not only didn't vote for him..they voted for the Tories. Is the media pull that strong that they will ignore these freebies and enticements? Perhaps as is more likely they didn't believe they were deliverable? From the findings, the Labour party think it was an issue. I agree and have agreed with you in the past that Corbyn was overly harshly treated but on the flip side the Labour party put a gun to its own head and it was fully loaded. The media merely pulled the trigger.
I’ve said before that Labour’s presentation of their manifesto was very poor, but I think in calling them “unicorns and freebies” you’re parroting the media again. Why did you not believe the party would deliver, when in the past the party did deliver (NHS, etc)? You didn’t believe they could deliver because you were bombarded with news saying they couldn’t. Taking control of and running transport, water, power, etc - in the national interest rather than to profit big business - is not exactly pie in the sky, when you consider how many other countries do it. I’m not questioning your sincerity, but how you reached your conclusions. Perhaps decades of the mantra “government can’t run things” told you Labour couldn’t deliver, and if that’s the case then you have been led by right wing propaganda. And it doesn’t explain how you think Labour is out of touch with working class people, unless you’re going to tell me that working class people prefer to pay more for energy and water, or like train networks that deliver huge profits to owners while making them late for work, and are quite happy with unaffordable housing and low pay.

Hipper
Posts: 5682
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:33 pm
Been Liked: 1175 times
Has Liked: 918 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Hipper » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:57 am

I have usually voted Conservative but this last election I voted Greens, principally because I wanted to send a message that Climate Change is the biggest single issue. It proved of course a wasted vote as most people seemed more concerned about other things, notably Brexit.

I did read the manifestos, mainly with reference to Climate Change. Obviously the Greens but also the Liberals and Labour had lengthy pronouncements on the subject, and I thought Labour's was particularly impressive. The Conservatives didn't seem much more then business as usual.

On the whole I quite liked the Labour manifesto but agree with the reasons for their electoral failure - a lack of belief in the deliverability of what they proposed plus the unknown consequences of some of the more radical proposals, the lack of a clear Brexit strategy (clearly necessary as the recent elections had only really been about Brexit, and whilst I think Corbyn and perhaps the party wanted us to remain, many typical Labour voters probably wanted us to leave), and of course Corbyn himself (partly media problems including, I suspect their exaggerating of the anti semitism card, but also I think his attempt to be more media 'smooth' and less 'raw').

I don't like the easy criticism on here of the current government. We are in an unprecedented situation and it's hardly a surprise that mistakes, especially with hindsight, will be made. It's difficult to believe that any bunch of politicians could do any better. It might have been better to treat this like WW2 and have a kind of coalition just to keep the public more onside, especially the longer this crisis continues, but even in WW2 that didn't happen until eight months into the war and was prompted by a defeat (in Norway).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_war_ministry

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:32 am

boatshed bill wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 pm
I'm a life-long (well since I grew up) Labour voter. I've been a trade union member,still am a Labour party member. I firmly believe that the values under which the Labour Party was originally formed have minimal appeal in our modern society.
Can't see Labour increasing their vote except by doing something similar to what Blair did...
I think we are about to be in recession at best. A depression at worst.

How the Tories deal with it I think will have a massive impact on the next election.

Waves of job losses are coming unfortunately and all this money spent now will have to be paid back.

Many companies are going to take advantage of this to cut pay and benefits and pension. Starting with companies like British Airways and RR.

bobinho
Posts: 9248
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:48 pm
Been Liked: 4070 times
Has Liked: 6538 times
Location: Burnley

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by bobinho » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:35 am

For gods sake anyone arguing against andrewjb don’t write anything that was ever mentioned in a newspaper or any other media outlet because that means it’s you just “parroting” what’s been fed to you.

How would it even be possible to say anything to support/discredit that wasn’t universally recognised and reported during the build up to the election? You simply can’t argue with someone who sticks their fingers in their ears and walks off saying “your argument is irrelevant because the office for fiscal studies have already said the numbers don’t add up and the manifesto is financially flawed and undeliverable” so you can’t use that argument.

There’s none so blind....

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:27 am

boatshed bill wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 pm
I'm a life-long (well since I grew up) Labour voter. I've been a trade union member,still am a Labour party member. I firmly believe that the values under which the Labour Party was originally formed have minimal appeal in our modern society.
Can't see Labour increasing their vote except by doing something similar to what Blair did...
I've said the same. It was easy to rally against the Tories during the 50s, 60s, upto the noughties. Since then the class war has all but died. Nobody cares less where you've come from. I've also said many times that working class man has never been as well off. Getting them to rally around your flag requires a vision that doesn't involve them losing what it has taken 60 years to achieve.
The best attribute of Blair, and I know the left wingers hate him, is that he brought people together. Businesses were encouraged to provide for schools and education, he got rid of the them and us stigma.
The far left, and they are still there hiding in the shadows are very divisive. They want to put us up against each other Rich against poor, White against Black, Christian against Muslim, Heterosexuals against Gays.

It's possible to be poor and proud to be British.
It's possible to be Christian and care about Muslims and Jews.
It's possible to be rich and care about the poor, the sick, and the elderly.
It's possible to be White and care about BAME.
It's possible to be patriotic without being a xenophobe.

But if you listened to the bullshit the extreme left spout, all the ills of the world are the fault of the rich, white privileged, racist, christian, nationalists.
They've already put half the country against them already.......
These 6 users liked this post: summitclaret boatshed bill LeadBelly Vino blanco tiger76 bobinho

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:08 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:27 am
I've said the same. It was easy to rally against the Tories during the 50s, 60s, upto the noughties. Since then the class war has all but died. Nobody cares less where you've come from. I've also said many times that working class man has never been as well off. Getting them to rally around your flag requires a vision that doesn't involve them losing what it has taken 60 years to achieve.
The best attribute of Blair, and I know the left wingers hate him, is that he brought people together. Businesses were encouraged to provide for schools and education, he got rid of the them and us stigma.
The far left, and they are still there hiding in the shadows are very divisive. They want to put us up against each other Rich against poor, White against Black, Christian against Muslim, Heterosexuals against Gays.

It's possible to be poor and proud to be British.
It's possible to be Christian and care about Muslims and Jews.
It's possible to be rich and care about the poor, the sick, and the elderly.
It's possible to be White and care about BAME.
It's possible to be patriotic without being a xenophobe.

But if you listened to the bullshit the extreme left spout, all the ills of the world are the fault of the rich, white privileged, racist, christian, nationalists.
They've already put half the country against them already.......
We have the most extreme right government in recent history who have spent ten years looting and vandalising our public services, and making the poor poorer; a lazy, useless racist chancer as PM, whose inability to lead has cost us tens of thousands of lives during this pandemic, and driven the country into the biggest economic depression in our history; but all of this is somehow the fault of the left?

Vino blanco
Posts: 5345
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm
Been Liked: 1898 times
Has Liked: 1965 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Vino blanco » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:40 pm

No, it's the fault of the right wing media, as usual, isn't it Andrew?

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:12 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:08 am
We have the most extreme right government in recent history who have spent ten years looting and vandalising our public services, and making the poor poorer; a lazy, useless racist chancer as PM, whose inability to lead has cost us tens of thousands of lives during this pandemic, and driven the country into the biggest economic depression in our history; but all of this is somehow the fault of the left?
From your position Andrew, everyman and his dog is extreme right wing. That you even think this government is extreme right wing, shows that you are very, very young, or have a total lack of knowledge about our history. These boys are piddling centrists compared to Thatcher.

Mentioning looting and vandalism, a week after your mates took over the BLM march is a bit insensitive as well as naive.

Driven the country into the biggest economic depression. Have I just woken up and imagined Corona Virus :shock: It was so realistic too.

No ones blamed the left for the position we are in, fortunately the people have decided they would rather not give them the chance to screw up. If the left bears a fault it is in taking away the only real alternative to the Tories. We need a centrist Government. A government to bring the people together under a common banner. A government that creates opportunity, but protects the weak. A government that doesn't need to rob Peter to pay Paul, but creates enough wealth that everyone is included in the benefits.
These 2 users liked this post: bobinho tiger76

Hipper
Posts: 5682
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:33 pm
Been Liked: 1175 times
Has Liked: 918 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Hipper » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:29 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:08 am
We have the most extreme right government in recent history who have...... driven the country into the biggest economic depression in our history; but all of this is somehow the fault of the left?
Come on Andrew. I usually respect what you say but this 'driven the country into the biggest economic depression' is a pretty pathetic way to attack the government in the current situation.

dermotdermot
Posts: 3479
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 660 times
Has Liked: 205 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by dermotdermot » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:47 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:08 am
We have the most extreme right government in recent history who have spent ten years looting and vandalising our public services, and making the poor poorer; a lazy, useless racist chancer as PM, whose inability to lead has cost us tens of thousands of lives during this pandemic, and driven the country into the biggest economic depression in our history; but all of this is somehow the fault of the left?
Yes it is the fault of the left who, by trying to peddle their extreme policies over the last decade, especially in the last five, miserable, Corbyn years, have allowed the right wing of the Tory party to flourish. I blame them entirely for being stubbornly selfish and stupid.

daveyclaret
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 3:49 pm
Been Liked: 23 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by daveyclaret » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:54 pm

AndrewJB

Re your comment that Corbyn’s and Labour failure to win the last election was down to the media influencing voters not to vote for Corbyn.

From myself, an ordinary guy on the street to my relatives, friends, & work colleagues, we all said the same thing, that we wouldn’t vote for Labour because of Corbyn. Not one of us said that we weren’t voting for Labour because' it said this in the newspaper about Corbyn’ or’ it said that on TV about Corbyn’.

I live in South Yorkshire and I consider myself reasonably well educated. I have a MSc degree, I’m a Chartered Engineer and I work as a Professional Engineer. I didn’t need the help of newspapers or commentators on TV or radio to help me make up my mind that I wasn’t going to vote for Corbyn and subsequently not for Labour who I had voted for religiously for the past 50 years. I listened to Corbyn many times when he spoke in Parliament and I watched numerous interviews of him and it became obvious to me that Corbyn would never be Prime Minister. He doesn’t look the part, he doesn’t act the part, and, in my view, he really doesn’t want the part. He’s happy to be in permanent opposition as that appears to me to be the extent of his political capability. Add to that, his motley crew of a Shadow Cabinet who didn’t give me and others ‘confidence’ that they had the capability to be Government Ministers and able to make the 'big' Government decisions. Also, the way that Labour fannied around on Brexit where Corbyn sat on the fence afraid to make a public decision on which way Labour were to go. On Brexit, Corbyn showed no leadership capability whatsoever. For me, the man is unfit to be Prime Minister of this country and is not Prime Minister material, full stop.

It’s admirable that you defend Corbyn for his heavy defeat in the election, but where I live and in the world that I inhabit, that kind of slobbering devotion for a failed Labour Leader who lost the Northern Labour heartlands to Conservatives raises guffaws big time. Come into the real world to see what ex Labour voters have to say about Corbyn and I’d be extremely surprised if any of them mentioned that they didn’t vote for Corbyn, ‘because of the media’. Even Labour’s Shadow Health Minister, Jonathon Ashworth, on the eve of the General Election was quoted as saying that Corbyn was toxic and Labour would lose the election because of him.

As I mentioned, I was a serial Labour voter but their last 3 leaders before the present one – Brown, Milliband, and Corbyn, were, in my view, all political duffers. Merging these 3 duffers together, you wouldn’t get a decent MP never mind finding an individual capable of winning a General Election for Labour.

Lastly, as commented several times in the above threads, that it took 4 months to produce this report. That’s a ridiculous amount of time and no doubt expense too. The Report Committee (which had Labour Leader failure Milliband on the team) had only to visit the lost Labour heartlands and speak to the locals and the report would have written itself in a far, far shorter time than 4 months.
These 3 users liked this post: Fenwick Somethingfishy KateR

dermotdermot
Posts: 3479
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 660 times
Has Liked: 205 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by dermotdermot » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:04 pm

I think that you’re wrong to bracket Gordon Brown with Miliband and Corbyn. In my view, a political heavyweight who might just have swung the 2010 election had it not been for the Murdoch press and being unfortunate enough to encounter that hideous woman from Rochdale.

Vino blanco
Posts: 5345
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm
Been Liked: 1898 times
Has Liked: 1965 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Vino blanco » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:19 pm

Ah, it's the right wing press again. They must be very naughty boys.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:29 pm

dermotdermot wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:04 pm
I think that you’re wrong to bracket Gordon Brown with Miliband and Corbyn. In my view, a political heavyweight who might just have swung the 2010 election had it not been for the Murdoch press and being unfortunate enough to encounter that hideous woman from Rochdale.
I liked Gordon Brown, I've seen him at conference when obviously relaxed, and he was solid and honest.
His persona on TV though, he couldn't help but look shifty, and his slight stammer always gave him an air of searching for the answer. A great shame really, he was a lot better than he came across.

dermotdermot
Posts: 3479
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 660 times
Has Liked: 205 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by dermotdermot » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:13 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:19 pm
Ah, it's the right wing press again. They must be very naughty boys.
Well I fell into that one. In the case of Corbyn, he didn’t need the press to be against him. He would have lost anyway due to his staggering incompetence. Gordon Brown, on the other hand, had the press, who had previously backed Tony Blair, suddenly turn against him on the eve of the election. He very nearly won that election even after losing their backing had it not been for that ‘bigoted’ half witted woman from Rochdale. It is possible that, had it not been for her untimely intervention, the course of the last ten years might have been entirely different. Just think. No austerity, no brexit, no Corbyn, no McCluskey, no Johnson, no Cummings. Ah, what might have been had she not ventured out that day.

Vino blanco
Posts: 5345
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm
Been Liked: 1898 times
Has Liked: 1965 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Vino blanco » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:40 pm

Ah, you mean the bigoted half witted woman from Rochdale, who is a member of the British electorate and has the same vote as all the pseudo intellectuals on here.
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

boatshed bill
Posts: 15108
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3138 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:44 pm

I never really had a problem with Jeremy Corbyn (though I accept I am probably in the minority). I vote for the party rather than personalities. Unfortunately for him, Jeremy Corbyn's past actions, albeit I believe with good intent, gave the press and the opposition far too much ammunition and opportunity to discredit him for him to get elected.
He clearly fails to command the necessary level of respect, he's most often referred to just as "Corbyn", unlike good old Boris. Is this just down to the media?

Clarets4me
Posts: 4948
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 2307 times
Has Liked: 1033 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Clarets4me » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:50 pm

F/B posts from former Burnley Council Leader & Labour group leader, Mark Townsend ......

12/12/19 - Election Day ... " This is the day for real change.Vote for the many not the few. Vote Labour - Vote Julie Cooper !

14/12/19 - " I cannot believe Corbyn hasn't resigned with immediate effect. He will be in Parliament before Christmas still supposedly representing and leading us. I've put up with it for too long, defending the indefensible on the door-steps and he no longer speaks for me. He has put us in the wilderness, left the " many " in despair rather than hope, and left to him, for any time at all, he will steer us into another cul-de-sac. He needs to GO NOW !!

But he wanted us to make Corbyn Prime Minister 48 hours earlier ... :lol: :lol:

Clarets4me
Posts: 4948
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 2307 times
Has Liked: 1033 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Clarets4me » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:41 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:40 pm
Ah, you mean the bigoted half witted woman from Rochdale, who is a member of the British electorate and has the same vote as all the pseudo intellectuals on here.
I suspect the same problem for the " strident shouty left " will re-occur at the next election, assisted by the more extreme elements of " Black Lives matter " and other fellow travellers ...

They will continue to condemn the " white working class " & " White Van man " as prejudiced, stupid, uneducated and sneer at their respect for the " racist Churchill " , our armed forces and support for our national sports teams. When polled by the BBC/YouGov etc, the British people will then give the expected answers, more funding for the NHS, more Aid, eliminate poverty and the rest. On Election Day 2024, the Conservative's will be returned with a slightly smaller majority, with some surprise gains in the North & Midlands, and pollsters will shake their heads again. The traditional Tory seats will come in as usual, and many of what should be Labour's traditional voters, in the privacy of the polling booth and p****d off by the left's dismissal of them, will vote Conservative ....

Quietly, the Government has already dropped the Coalition's proposal to reduce the number of MP's from 650 to 600, and new boundaries will be drawn to eliminate the current SNP/Labour advantage. The Tory leaning Press will highlight Labour's appalling running of the NHS in Wales, but will be soft on the SNP's failings in Scotland ( stop any Labour revival ), they'll introduce voter I/D, and pump funding into the " Red-Wall " seats they took in 2019 !

It'll be a long hard road back for Labour, whatever your views !

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by aggi » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:47 pm

daveyclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:54 pm
...
I listened to Corbyn many times when he spoke in Parliament and I watched numerous interviews of him and it became obvious to me that Corbyn would never be Prime Minister. He doesn’t look the part, he doesn’t act the part, and, in my view, he really doesn’t want the part. He’s happy to be in permanent opposition as that appears to me to be the extent of his political capability. Add to that, his motley crew of a Shadow Cabinet who didn’t give me and others ‘confidence’ that they had the capability to be Government Ministers and able to make the 'big' Government decisions.
...
I don't disagree that much with a fair bit of that. He didn't come across particularly well and wasn't politically savvy.

What I do find strange though is that the same standards weren't applied to Johnson and his cabinet. Johnson didn't really offer anything other than a catchphrase and describing him as looking or acting prime ministerial seems quite a stretch and I doubt many will dispute the paucity of talent in the cabinet (I'm not sure if we've ever had a cabinet where so many have previously been sacked in disgrace).
This user liked this post: boatshed bill

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:26 am

Vino blanco wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:40 pm
Ah, you mean the bigoted half witted woman from Rochdale, who is a member of the British electorate and has the same vote as all the pseudo intellectuals on here.
And the fact that she has the same vote as all the pseudo intellectuals on here. Is what sees so much resentment fuelled rancor from all the pseudo intellectuals on here.

Bloody democracy eh!?

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:16 am

Hipper wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:29 pm
Come on Andrew. I usually respect what you say but this 'driven the country into the biggest economic depression' is a pretty pathetic way to attack the government in the current situation.
Context is important in this. I was replying to someone who (among many others) claimed that austerity happened because Labour "wrecked the economy." I think most of us understand that the 2008 financial crash took a big hit on our economy, however they continue to insist that Labour was at fault, so I'm simply keeping with that train of thought with this current crisis. Those who insist Labour wrecked the economy in 2008 have to accept that the Tories have done the same in 2020.

Somethingfishy
Posts: 2570
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 719 times
Has Liked: 510 times
Location: Padiham

Re: Labour's Election post-mortum .....

Post by Somethingfishy » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:57 am

Clarets4me wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:50 pm
F/B posts from former Burnley Council Leader & Labour group leader, Mark Townsend ......

12/12/19 - Election Day ... " This is the day for real change.Vote for the many not the few. Vote Labour - Vote Julie Cooper !

14/12/19 - " I cannot believe Corbyn hasn't resigned with immediate effect. He will be in Parliament before Christmas still supposedly representing and leading us. I've put up with it for too long, defending the indefensible on the door-steps and he no longer speaks for me. He has put us in the wilderness, left the " many " in despair rather than hope, and left to him, for any time at all, he will steer us into another cul-de-sac. He needs to GO NOW !!

But he wanted us to make Corbyn Prime Minister 48 hours earlier ... :lol: :lol:
Townsend came to my door and i informed him i would no longer be voting for Labour. Without asking why he instantly asked me if it was because of Corbyn. I said it was one of many issues but yes he was one of them. He just sighed and said it was a common theme and that he personally didn't think he was fit to be their leader let alone PM. He begged me to vote for the party not the man but i told him it was more than just Corbyn. He had the look of a man who had taken a hammering on many doorsteps....but yes...it was all the right wing medias fault. :roll:

Post Reply