DCWat wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:41 am

With Garlick’s record of getting deals done, I’d say it was essential, if only to make the recruitment job a little easier, in the window.

So far we need to replace Gibson, Lennon, Hendrick, Bardsley and possibly Hart. That’s without looking to other improvements to the squad that we may have been wanting to make.

Our squad is paper thin and if we lose Dyche on top of all of this, we’re in serious trouble. The cost and time needed to resolve all of the upheaval a new manager and team would bring, would be huge.

I don’t think it’s strange that some people back Dyche in this situation. He’s more than proven that he’s well aware of the needs to balance the books alongside the longer term stability of the club. Look at his first PL season as a prime example.

I’m not sure that the evidence for Garlick is quite as strong.

As of June 2019, we had £42m in the bank. It might be a bit more now, but with the help of coronavirus, I doubt it.

But anyway, that £42m is money that BFC have received but not spent in Dyche's 7 years, pretty much. We were about skint when he started. So overall, if we were happy to have no cash reserves at all to cover relegation, unexpected costs, new stands, and pandemics, Dyche could have spent about £6m per year more than he has.

So there's no need to think about Garlick holding back vast sums that could have been spent - he hasn't.

kentonclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:02 pm

A "major rebuild next season" is mainly the result of a succession of poor transfer windows.

I suppose both Dyche and Garlick can be deemed culpable on that score.

Yes! and this has been on the cards for a couple of years, many posters have predicted this exact occurrence, now we'll see if the board, manager and scouting team can produce some rabbits out of hats. I have to be honest i'm not hopeful, but i maybe pleasantly surprised if we sign ready made 1st team players, because make no bones about it that's what's required, at least 2-3 quality additions this summer is the minimum requirement, if we're going to remain competitive at this level next season.

scouseclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:02 pm

He is unlikely to get a job at a club the size of Villa already in the Premier League, so at some point he’ll no doubt conclude he needs to take a step back to move forward.

Maybe. A big risk, like I say. He would have to get them back up at the first attempt. If he doesn't, he's a Championship manager who failed to get a team promoted who should have been. I think that's worse than if we went down, due to his impressive history at the club.

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:47 pm

There was also no need to mention you have reflected on your professional life during lockdown in the pre game interview the other day tbh.

Youve lost me on this mate.

Dyche was talking about that pre game. Best not to say you have been reflective of your professional life when in that kind of role. It is basically saying you are leaving soon imo.

I think we just have to accept that we have unavoidable difficulties to overcome as long we remain a Premier League club. I was talking about this to my son the other day, and his view is that Burnley simply cannot survive in the Premier League because we don't have the resources to get in the players required.

The fact that we have survived this long when all other comparable teams have tried and failed is little short of a miracle. It's nobody's fault, nobody's doing anything wrong. Just the opposite, both the manager and the board of directors deserve enormous credit for the amazing results that have been achieved.

Erasmus wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:32 pm

I think we just have to accept that we have unavoidable difficulties to overcome as long we remain a Premier League club. I was talking about this to my son the other day, and his view is that Burnley simply cannot survive in the Premier League because we don't have the resources to get in the players required.

The fact that we have survived this long when all other comparable teams have tried and failed is little short of a miracle. It's nobody's fault, nobody's doing anything wrong. Just the opposite, both the manager and the board of directors deserve enormous credit for the amazing results that have been achieved.

We can stay up with solid management. I don't agree when people say it's only a matter of time before we go down, suggesting it'll be soon. While it's possible to stay up, we can stay up.

We have proven that we can improve every season overall under Dyche. The hit on the finances from the virus will always hit a club that is prudently run harder than one with a sugar daddy.

The problem for Dyche is that he is going to have to work with similar constraints to when we first got up or back up. He has nothing to prove with those constraints and it is time for his next challenge, sadly.

It feels like the clubs fallen apart in a week. At least we can all be happy back in Division 2 with no money and no plastic fans. ( Sarcasm aimed at the super fans )

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:24 pm

Dyche was talking about that pre game. Best not to say you have been reflective of your professional life when in that kind of role. It is basically saying you are leaving soon imo.

Got you. I read it as if I had been reflecting

Dyche needs to take some responsibility for the situation we are in also.

He has consistently had a strategy of investing in older players. And its worked. But its always a plan for now and not the future. Needing to replace multiple players at once has been a long time coming. And this is why adding a couple of players per window was always important.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:06 pm

Dyche needs to take some responsibility for the situation we are in also.

He has consistently had a strategy of investing in older players. And its worked. But its always a plan for now and not the future. Needing to replace multiple players at once has been a long time coming. And this is why adding a couple of players per window was always important.

And also why it's as well we have been building up a big reserve of cash.

How many points will we get this season ? Pre restart I thought around 50. Given the injuries and small squad I cannot see us getting remotely near that figure. We looked like a club in total disarray last night

FCBurnley wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:11 pm

How many points will we get this season ? Pre restart I thought around 50. Given the injuries and small squad I cannot see us getting remotely near that figure. We looked like a club in total disarray last night

I'd not worry too much. The circumstances and the event of the night coupled with no fans and the fact city ALWAYS put 5 past us its hard to read.

But the comments didnt help. And all that was, was Dyche getting his excuses in and protecting his own image first.

I agree with Frank on this - why would a proven PL manager leave to go to the Championship

Of course Villa are a big club but who knows what next season is going to look like at that level and despite the money invested there with Bruce (currently doing pretty well in the PL himself) and then Dean Smith in charge they only managed back-to-back play-off place finishes

The expensively assembled Villa squad is like an upmarket version of the one Sean inherited from Eddie Howe - so certainly not guaranteed instant success adapting to his style

Can't think of a much worse time to take such a huge career risk - and nothing about Sean in his time at Burnley suggests he's a risk-taker

dsr wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:04 pm

As of June 2019, we had £42m in the bank. It might be a bit more now, but with the help of coronavirus, I doubt it.

But anyway, that £42m is money that BFC have received but not spent in Dyche's 7 years, pretty much. We were about skint when he started. So overall, if we were happy to have no cash reserves at all to cover relegation, unexpected costs, new stands, and pandemics, Dyche could have spent about £6m per year more than he has.

So there's no need to think about Garlick holding back vast sums that could have been spent - he hasn't.

I’d not referenced Garlick holding back vast sums?

FCBurnley wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:11 pm

How many points will we get this season ? Pre restart I thought around 50. Given the injuries and small squad I cannot see us getting remotely near that figure. We looked like a club in total disarray last night

I don't think you are looking far enough ahead.

We might already have enough points to keep our place at the top table. However, despite having what might seem like a healthy cushion, it is by no means guaranteed at this stage.

What is certain is that our players will have to run themselves into the ground over the next 8 games. That will take a lot out of them and increase their risk of injury.

Going forwards, if we stay up, they might only have a very short window of rest before the next season starts. It won't be like a regular pre-season run in. So we could have a knackered and depleted squad lining up for the start of next season.

We will be looking for our recruitment team to refresh our squad in a window that will probably reward flexibility and foresight over narrow minded focus and stubborn streaks. It will be a window that punishes reactionary strategies and clubs that sit back and wait. The clubs that have multiple action plans in place ( even thought they won't have to use them all ) and possess the ability to react quickly and decisively to changing circumstances could do very well in the upcoming window.

Unfortunately, that doesn't sound like us at all ( if it was then we probably wouldn't be embroiled in the wake of this contract fiasco ).

Even if our recruitment team performs better than last Summer ( which won't be difficult, simply identifying targets that are likely to come here will be an improvement ) we will still have a hard time of it. We will have to bed in all these new players in a very short space of time and hope that they gel immediately. If those players are signed with the intention of forcing a change to our style of play we might have to master that change in a short period of time as well.

So, our recruitment team will have to find us quality players at respectable prices ( plus signing on fees / agent fees and wages ) in what might be a difficult window and they will have to get them in quickly. Every week of the window that we fail to bring in these new players will place bigger and bigger physical demands on our players. That could easily hurt our chances of getting off to a good start next season.

A knackered and depleted squad is going to have a very tough time of it next season and if the substitute changes carry over for some reason I don't fancy our chances.

By not recognising and reacting to the changing circumstances, which should have prompted a re-think of our short term strategy, we have put our balls in the hands of our recruitment team. If their performance isn't a dramatic improvement on the last three windows we will have bet our future on the weakest element of our club and severely compromised the strongest.

The worrying problem with bad strategic decisions is that they have a nasty propensity for cascading.

Frank, we can stay up certainly. But history shows us that to date it has not been possible for any smaller club to stay up without an external source of funds. Season on season it is possible as we keep on doing what has never been done before, but can it really go on long term? The business model would suggest its virtually impossible.

Can anyone tell me why a manager would walk out of a very well paid job without another job to go to? Sean, if he is at all sane, will not leave unless he is offered another job and that isn’t likely because generally his style of play is hated by most fans outside of Burnley.

houseboy wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:27 pm

Can anyone tell me why a manager would walk out of a very well paid job without another job to go to? Sean, if he is at all sane, will not leave unless he is offered another job and that isn’t likely because generally his style of play is hated by most fans outside of Burnley.

He's financially made for life now. Plus 6 months off work is probably preferable to having a relegation on his CV. I think Palace will be lining him up to take over from Hodgson in a year or two.

I am disappointed with SD. You would think it is all one sided with a desperate SD versus a reluctant Board. He is ( has been?) a great Manager but he has also had his rewards. He is probably one of the best paid managers in the country and will also have had bonuses come his way and don't managers benefit financially from out-going transfers.
All his transfer dealings into the club have not been without some wastage , and he has had backing from the board for several expensive transfers. Did not the club authorize a £20 million purchase in the close season that the selling club agreed to but not the player involved? What is Gibson doing after a multi million pound transfer to the Club ?
His attitude seems to be encouraging a reluctance among highly paid professionals an excuse to under-perform. He should button up in public and have his arguments with the Board behind closed doors..

claret59 wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:07 am

I am disappointed with SD. You would think it is all one sided with a desperate SD versus a reluctant Board. He is ( has been?) a great Manager but he has also had his rewards. He is probably one of the best paid managers in the country and will also have had bonuses come his way and don't managers benefit financially from out-going transfers.
All his transfer dealings into the club have not been without some wastage , and he has had backing from the board for several expensive transfers. Did not the club authorize a £20 million purchase in the close season that the selling club agreed to but not the player involved? What is Gibson doing after a multi million pound transfer to the Club ?
His attitude seems to be encouraging a reluctance among highly paid professionals an excuse to under-perform. He should button up in public and have his arguments with the Board behind closed doors..

Have to agree. Has been brilliant for this club. But this club has equally been brilliant for him.

And the club should be united. Especially now. Especially with so much uncertainty and change.

He needs to get in the real world.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:06 pm

Dyche needs to take some responsibility for the situation we are in also.

He has consistently had a strategy of investing in older players. And its worked. But its always a plan for now and not the future. Needing to replace multiple players at once has been a long time coming. And this is why adding a couple of players per window was always important.

We have a strategy of investing in older players because SD wants experienced players, preferably with PL experience. Since we can't afford current PL players, we can only afford ex-PL players, who have usually been relegated, probably a couple of years previously who are coming to the end of their contract, who are attracted to playing again in the PL & at our wage level which is usually on a par/better than they are being offered in the Championship.

Combine all these factors & that makes them an older player. I'll be interested to see if we go for these type of players this window, could be the best indicator of where Dyche's future employment rests?

claret59 wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:07 am

I am disappointed with SD. You would think it is all one sided with a desperate SD versus a reluctant Board. He is ( has been?) a great Manager but he has also had his rewards. He is probably one of the best paid managers in the country and will also have had bonuses come his way and don't managers benefit financially from out-going transfers.
All his transfer dealings into the club have not been without some wastage , and he has had backing from the board for several expensive transfers. Did not the club authorize a £20 million purchase in the close season that the selling club agreed to but not the player involved? What is Gibson doing after a multi million pound transfer to the Club ?
His attitude seems to be encouraging a reluctance among highly paid professionals an excuse to under-perform. He should button up in public and have his arguments with the Board behind closed doors..

Dyche's reported salary - whilst the most our club has ever paid anyone (player or manager) - is mid table in the Premier League

It is not usual for managers to benefit from the transfer of an outgoing player - some (lower league clubs) do it. It would have to be clearly stated in the managers contract - possible but somewhat unlikely in SD's case.

I don't blame Dyche. We've always been a club that penny pinches compared to the competition, and it's well known we don't pay well.

It's just not sustainable in the long term and it is one hell of a frustrating job when the peanuts you're given to improve the team is taken away from you.

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:43 am

Dyche's reported salary - whilst the most our club has ever paid anyone (player or manager) - is mid table in the Premier League

It is not usual for managers to benefit from the transfer of an outgoing player - some (lower league clubs) do it. It would have to be clearly stated in the managers contract - possible but somewhat unlikely in SD's case.

If his salary is ‘mid table’ that means he is one of the top ten best paid managers in the country. It’s all about wording!

I do think Dyche has handled this pretty badly, especially considering the situation for everybody at the minute. I get the frustrations, I’ve voiced them about the board before, but there’s a time/place and a way of doing it, and this wasn’t it. All very unprofessional, which is unlike him.

chekhov wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:23 am

If his salary is ‘mid table’ that means he is one of the top ten best paid managers in the country. It’s all about wording!

And easily one of the best paid in the world!

And most secure to boot!

He is (allegedly) on over £3.5m in what is effectively his job for as long as he wants it!

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:03 am

I do think Dyche has handled this pretty badly, especially considering the situation for everybody at the minute. I get the frustrations, I’ve voiced them about the board before, but there’s a time/place and a way of doing it, and this wasn’t it. All very unprofessional, which is unlike him.

Or maybe he's done it the right way, got nowhere and is at the end of his tether with the situation.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:45 am

And easily one of the best paid in the world!

And most secure to boot!

He is (allegedly) on over £3.5m in what is effectively his job for as long as he wants it!

And he won't have the same control over signings if he goes elsewhere, especially at clubs such as Villa or West Ham.

That's what he'll have to weigh up. Whether he's happy to let others have a say in who he signs.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:46 am

Or maybe he's done it the right way, got nowhere and is at the end of his tether with the situation.

Sort it out behind closed doors then. If he’s expecting us to break the bank for Hendrick at such a financially sensitive time he’s going to be disappointed. He knows why we have to be like we are. And was he really expecting contracts for Hart/Lennon? I see Bardsley has signed.

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:57 am

Sort it out behind closed doors then. If he’s expecting us to break the bank for Hendrick at such a financially sensitive time he’s going to be disappointed. He knows why we have to be like we are. And was he really expecting contracts for Hart/Lennon? I see Bardsley has signed.

I don't believe he wanted to re-sign either Hart or Lennon - but this is nothing to do with the financially sensitive time, it's been going on for months and months before the pandemic with the club dragging their heels on deals. Dyche isn't perfect by any stretch of the information but I think he has more than a point with what's been going on.

superdimitri wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:26 am

I don't blame Dyche. We've always been a club that penny pinches compared to the competition, and it's well known we don't pay well.

It's just not sustainable in the long term and it is one hell of a frustrating job when the peanuts you're given to improve the team is taken away from you.

If that statement re penny pinching is correct then how come in the early 2000's we had to sell the ground and lease it back, in 2009 we had a transfer embargo and extra loans from Directors, in 2013 had to see players to balance the books and could only sign "frees"? Being strapped for cash needs you to be penny pinching. Remember our recent history before accusing the Board to be penny pinching. Since 2009 we have probably spent over £500million. I agree we have not spent money we don't have but until we risk outside investment, this is how it has to be and for every Leicester Liverpool etc there are Boltons, Bury, Portsmouth, Coventry and many others.
WQe are such a small club that if we get into deep " there is unlikely to be a billionaire saviour

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:00 am

I don't believe he wanted to re-sign either Hart or Lennon - but this is nothing to so with the financially sensitive time, it's been going on for months and months before the pandemic with the club dragging their heels on deals. Dyche isn't perfect by any stretch of the information but I think he has more than a point with what's been going on.

He may have, but doing it do publically is just wrong. Especially when we have no idea of future budgets. The Board will see Gibson as a major risk to our future and until that goal at Southampton Vydra to a lesser degree. I can understand their reluctance to back Sean with resources further atm. If Bards has signed a one year deal, then that is ok.

summitclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:14 am

I can understand their reluctance to back Sean with resources further atm.

Might as well tell him to go then if they are not prepared to back him

If he does not understand our predicament until we know if next season ia a normal one, then he is not the man I thought he was.

summitclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:14 am

He may have, but doing it do publically is just wrong. Especially when we have no idea of future budgets. The Board will see Gibson as a major risk to our future and until that goal at Southampton Vydra to a lesser degree. I can understand their reluctance to back Sean with resources further atm. If Bards has signed a one year deal, then that is ok.

You think the board sit there and think about the GIbson signing, ignore all the good ones, ignore all the ones we have made a profit on and the ones we will still make a profit on then decide we aren't backing this manager ? They then changed their views on Vydra after a goal at Southampton

If Pope makes a mistake tomorrow will they regret signing him ?

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:19 am

You think the board sit there and think about the GIbson signing, ignore all the good ones, ignore all the ones we have made a profit on and the ones we will still make a profit on then decide we aren't backing this manager ? They then changed their views on Vydra after a goal at Southampton

If Pope makes a mistake tomorrow will they regret signing him ?

No. I think we are in totally unknown territory and have to be very careful, so we have a club for the future. I have been critical of the Board re Jack of cover in cm for ages. I just think now is different.

Per Jeff himself, talks were ‘active’ re a new contract late last year, so it isn’t just like the club haven’t bothered their arse. What were the demands being made? Especially when clubs like Celtic and Milan entered his and his agent’s equation? We have to be careful with salaries, it’s a given. And when the pandemic started, frankly it’s right that locking the club into multi million pound contracts should take a backseat. There should at least be an understanding of the complexities involved for clubs now from all sides and there hasn’t been imo.

This pandemic will be the new line trotted out on a similar scale to the itv digital debacle 20 years ago. Yes it has and will affect us short term, but will be used as an excuse by many happy clappers for years to come about the lack of investment.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:00 am

I don't believe he wanted to re-sign either Hart or Lennon - but this is nothing to do with the financially sensitive time, it's been going on for months and months before the pandemic with the club dragging their heels on deals. Dyche isn't perfect by any stretch of the information but I think he has more than a point with what's been going on.

But now it IS a sensitive time. Whats been has been. He needs to get in the real world.

gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:01 pm

This pandemic will be the new line trotted out on a similar scale to the itv digital debacle 20 years ago. Yes it has and will affect us short term, but will be used as an excuse by many happy clappers for years to come about the lack of investment.

I am not a happy clapper. And ive been disappointed with more transfer windows than I havent.

But right now is not the time for public fall outs or demanding we stretch ourselves for players who havent committed to us!

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:00 am

I don't believe he wanted to re-sign either Hart or Lennon - but this is nothing to do with the financially sensitive time, it's been going on for months and months before the pandemic with the club dragging their heels on deals. Dyche isn't perfect by any stretch of the information but I think he has more than a point with what's been going on.

I can understand the disappointment of any manager that the Hendrick issue wasn't resolved any earlier, but how could it have been? The only two ways to resolve it were to give him whatever it takes so that the attractions of Milan were blown out of the water (if he was seriously considering and being considered by Milan - at any rate, to give him a contract he was happy with) or else to declare that he wouldn't be stopping at any price. Anything in between is uncertain.

So since we don't know what Hendrick was asking or what he was offered - and Dyche does know those numbers - it's hard to decide who, if anyone, was at fault.

But other players have extended contracts in this time so it's not as if Garlick has done absolutely nothing.

mdd2 wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:08 am

If that statement re penny pinching is correct then how come in the early 2000's we had to sell the ground and lease it back, in 2009 we had a transfer embargo and extra loans from Directors, in 2013 had to see players to balance the books and could only sign "frees"? Being strapped for cash needs you to be penny pinching. Remember our recent history before accusing the Board to be penny pinching. Since 2009 we have probably spent over £500million. I agree we have not spent money we don't have but until we risk outside investment, this is how it has to be and for every Leicester Liverpool etc there are Boltons, Bury, Portsmouth, Coventry and many others.
WQe are such a small club that if we get into deep " there is unlikely to be a billionaire saviour

Frankly it doesn't matter to players how or why we don't spend good money, but the truth is we don't. I don't agree with spending what you don't have, but my post wasn't about that. If you are a player with several choices to make with a limited time in your life to get paid top dollar you are unlikely going to want to get paid less no matter how good the clubs ethics or finances are.

You only need to look at Rodriguez moving to West Brom instead of us previously to understand the type of transfers we will lose out on. A player who would prefer to come to Burnley opted instead to go to West Brom.

So yeah, it's not right to spend what you don't have, and it's not right to cheat either. But to be sustainable in this league at some point we are going to have buck up and realise if you can't beat em, you need to join them.

My post was sympathetic with Dyche. He could easily leave us and go to a club who will spend more money. To him, much like players it matters little how the funds come in, just that they do.. And if they don't that makes his job so much harder.
As it turns out what little we had to spend before has been reduced, likely to nothing. Making what was already an impossible job before even harder.
Can you see how he must be feeling?

Meanwhile the top clubs like Chelsea are able to sign players for top dollar in a period of unrest. So yeah, I don't agree with how that's allowed, but we aren't going to stay in the league long term unless we find some investment and stop penny pinching and we aren't going to keep Dyche either. It's looking more and more like those two will come hand in hand if something doesn't change.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:32 pm

I am not a happy clapper. And ive been disappointed with more transfer windows than I havent.

But right now is not the time for public fall outs or demanding we stretch ourselves for players who havent committed to us!

I do agree with you short term, however I will garuntee in 5 years time on this board this pandemic will be used as a cop out for any failings in the transfer market.