Investor

[Gordaleman]

Come off it Tony, apart from Brian Laws, they brought in three managers that all improved the club in their own way. OK, Coyle changed his name to Judas but he did OK before that. Then we had Eddie Howe, who brought in some very good players that Sean inherited. This BOD is not a 'One trick pony', they have improved the club no end over many years.

[mdd2]

if we go back to Stan-he improved us
Cotts saved us from relegation and IMO greatly improved the squad
OC certainly improved us
Laws-no he didn't
Eddie-definitely improved us by getting rid of the old guard and brought in some good players whilst having to cut our overheads
So to me it looks as if whoever has been in charge since 1999 have appointed managers who have largely progressed the club

[jtv]

Are they the best or have they just got luck with one managerial appointment?

Tony you somehow seem disillusioned with the board. How come? This is only recent.

[ClaretTony]

Tony you somehow seem disillusioned with the board. How come? This is only recent.

Not at all but I do think the basis of it all is the appointment of Sean Dyche.

[jtv]

Not at all but I do think the basis of it all is the appointment of Sean Dyche.

Well the board appointed him...............

[Steddyman]

Are they the best or have they just got luck with one managerial appointment?

Completely agree with this. Jury’s out. You wonder what Sean could achieve elsewhere with more investment.

[ClaretTony]

Well the board appointed him...............

They did with Lee Hoos playing a big part too. It proved to be an inspired decision but even those involved will know just how lucky they were.

[cblantfanclub]

They chose him from a list of applicants so it wasn't all down to luck they had to make a decision. Also did he apply or was he invited to apply if so the board need even more credit.
To dismiss them as a lucky one trick pony appears a very unobjective stance.

[ClaretTony]

They chose him from a list of applicants so it wasn't all down to luck they had to make a decision. Also did he apply or was he invited to apply if so the board need even more credit.
To dismiss them as a lucky one trick pony appears a very unobjective stance.

I think you have missed the point totally. There is always an element of luck in appointing a new manager no matter how thorough the process is. I know it was a very thorough process, I know they interviewed a large number of potential candidates, far more than you would expect.

We got it right and we also got it right by interviewing alongside the potential assistant manager at the last round of interviews, which was introduced by Hoos. I know that one director, neither of the two joint chairmen at the time, wasn’t in favour and wanted another candidate. But ultimately we got it right.

What I was trying to say, and the point you clearly missed, was that it was this decision that has got us to where we are because the appointment could not have been a better one. But, as I’ve said, there is always luck involved when you bring in a new manager.

[SparkyClaret]

For me, an investor is needed to give us the extra boost in the transfer market. I agree that the policy we have in place has served us incredibly well so far, but to push us on (which to me means top half finishes consistently) we need extra funds beyond what keeps the club safe. The best bet of that would be a sports group similar to Liverpool - a group that understands that the club might not see an immediate return on investment, but will allow for growth.

To me, that means poaching fans from the west of the county -i.e rovers, Preston etc who want to watch a winning team, which is possible and then growing from there. By no means am I aiming for a title any time soon, but consistently finishing in the top half allows you to move to the next goal, which would be Europa League. From there, the next logical step would be to break the top 6.

Again, I fully understand this is pie in the sky, but if we are looking at where Burnley could go with investment, that's how I'd steer it.

[aggi]

For me, an investor is needed to give us the extra boost in the transfer market. I agree that the policy we have in place has served us incredibly well so far, but to push us on (which to me means top half finishes consistently) we need extra funds beyond what keeps the club safe. The best bet of that would be a sports group similar to Liverpool - a group that understands that the club might not see an immediate return on investment, but will allow for growth.

To me, that means poaching fans from the west of the county -i.e rovers, Preston etc who want to watch a winning team, which is possible and then growing from there. By no means am I aiming for a title any time soon, but consistently finishing in the top half allows you to move to the next goal, which would be Europa League. From there, the next logical step would be to break the top 6.

Again, I fully understand this is pie in the sky, but if we are looking at where Burnley could go with investment, that's how I'd steer it.

Realistically though getting a few more fans from the local area is going to have a minimal impact on revenue. It's the commercial revenue and overseas market that really needs exploiting to drive significant increases.

I guess one direction would be to turn us into a niche club with some hipster appeal, St Pauli kind of style.

[Somethingfishy]

I was under the impression that any potential takeover would be in the small investment area that would allow us to get the transfers over the line we struggle with at the moment....to allow us to compete... but earlier on the Nixon thread i was told it was more likely to involve big money that would change the stature of the club.

[DCWat]

Realistically though getting a few more fans from the local area is going to have a minimal impact on revenue. It's the commercial revenue and overseas market that really needs exploiting to drive significant increases.

I guess one direction would be to turn us into a niche club with some hipster appeal, St Pauli kind of style.

How have St Pauli achieved that?

[ClaretTony]

For me, an investor is needed to give us the extra boost in the transfer market. I agree that the policy we have in place has served us incredibly well so far, but to push us on (which to me means top half finishes consistently) we need extra funds beyond what keeps the club safe. The best bet of that would be a sports group similar to Liverpool - a group that understands that the club might not see an immediate return on investment, but will allow for growth.

To me, that means poaching fans from the west of the county -i.e rovers, Preston etc who want to watch a winning team, which is possible and then growing from there. By no means am I aiming for a title any time soon, but consistently finishing in the top half allows you to move to the next goal, which would be Europa League. From there, the next logical step would be to break the top 6.

Again, I fully understand this is pie in the sky, but if we are looking at where Burnley could go with investment, that's how I'd steer it.

Just to pick up on poaching fans from Preston & Blackburn. Let’s go back to the Jack Walker days when they were so far ahead of us it was frightening. Did they ever poach any of our fans?

[Somethingfishy]

Just to pick up on poaching fans from Preston & Blackburn. Let’s go back to the Jack Walker days when they were so far ahead of us it was frightening. Did they ever poach any of our fans?

I doubt they poached exisiting fans but fairly safe to say they will have poached potential future fans off us at the time. They've all disappeared again by the looks of it now

[ClaretTony]

I doubt they poached exisiting fans but fairly safe to say they will have poached potential future fans off us at the time. They've all disappeared again by the looks of it now

I think the numbers who would ever consider switching club is so minimal it could never make a difference although I could imagine someone getting an interest in the game would choose the one doing better.

I’m a glory hunter. My dad took me when we were top of the league. Having said that, it might have had more to do with the fact that we lived around 2 minutes walk from the turnstiles.

[BenWickes]

Just to pick up on poaching fans from Preston & Blackburn. Let’s go back to the Jack Walker days when they were so far ahead of us it was frightening. Did they ever poach any of our fans?

I know of at least two Burnley fans. David and Paul Ainscough who switched to watching Rovers when Walker bought them. So yes.

[fidelcastro]

I know of at least two Burnley fans. David and Paul Ainscough who switched to watching Rovers when Walker bought them. So yes.

How old were they at the time?

They weren't very good fans, were they?

[ClaretTony]

I know of at least two Burnley fans. David and Paul Ainscough who switched to watching Rovers when Walker bought them. So yes.

Where did they live? Nuttall Street?

I know some who switched from Burnley to Colne Dynamoes back in the late 80s. I just can’t get my head around it, there’s only one club matters to me.

[BenWickes]

How old were they at the time?

They weren't very good fans, we're they?

About 17 and 19 and clearly not good fans.

[ClaretTony]

About 17 and 19 and clearly not good fans.

Do they still go to Ewood?

[BenWickes]

Where did they live? Nuttall Street?

I know some who switched from Burnley to Colne Dynamoes back in the late 80s. I just can’t get my head around it, there’s only one club matters to me.

We thought the same Tony. We couldn't believe it. David worked at Greyhound Ford at the time. Think they were from Accrington or Huncoat.

[fidelcastro]

Do they still go to Ewood?

Anfield now, I believe.

[BenWickes]

Do they still go to Ewood?

They certainly don't go on t'Turf. We told them they'd not be welcome as we'd name and shame them. Not seen them in years but wouldn't surprise me if they switched again to Man Utd or whoever else was doing well.

[Somethingfishy]

I think the numbers who would ever consider switching club is so minimal it could never make a difference although I could imagine someone getting an interest in the game would choose the one doing better.

I’m a glory hunter. My dad took me when we were top of the league. Having said that, it might have had more to do with the fact that we lived around 2 minutes walk from the turnstiles.

The biggest stumbling block we have as a club in attracting fans is quite simply the perception..especially to the impressionable younger fans. We won't attract the glory hunter fans..obviously. Even though we are a settled Prem club we still suffer from stereotyping by the media and fans of other clubs. It has some basis but as a whole it is a poor misconception. Any future investor will want to tap into the overseas market not just the local one. Far East fans are bombarded by images and the glamour of the big 6 clubs. That in a large part is to do with media exposure and preconceptions. That will be difficult to change and tap into but it something we must attempt if we are to grow.

[ClaretTony]

We thought the same Tony. We couldn't believe it. David worked at Greyhound Ford at the time. Think they were from Accrington or Huncoat.

There was a lad worked in our ticket office about three or four years ago who was a Blackburn fan. I went in one day and he had a Burnley sweater on and suggested we were converting him. He said no chance and I said I’d think less of him if he did. I just don’t understand switching clubs.

Now if your club went out of business I can see then that you would go and support another club.

[brexit]

Granville Technology Group
Oh and has the Bob Lord now lost it's sponsor.

[elwaclaret]

I used to work with a lad who never had a Burnley shirt off at JCottons... one day he turned up head to toe in Newcastle gear, even baseball cap... I believe these days he has no memory of his Keegan worship.

[Rileybobs]

Just to pick up on poaching fans from Preston & Blackburn. Let’s go back to the Jack Walker days when they were so far ahead of us it was frightening. Did they ever poach any of our fans?

Maybe they didn’t poach existing fans but they certainly took their share of that generation of fans. I was still at primary school (just) in Rossendale when Rovers won the league and the kids were mainly a mixture of Rovers and United fans. I bet if you go to that school now there will be a lot more kids supporting Burnley.

A good mate of mine isn’t a huge football fan but was a Rovers season ticket holder as a kid. I talked him into getting a Burnley season ticket for him and his son, who’s now a big Burnley fan - hopefully they’ll be able to use it soon!

[claptrappers_union]

Funny how you mention all the Rovers fans at school, it was the same for me as a teenager in mid-90s, most were United fans with a fair split between Rovers and Burnley I’d say.

Burnley and Rovers fans were genuine fans on the whole, but the United fans were your typical glory hunters who never went.

When I bumped into those Rovers fans some years later, I realised most of them had no interest in football anymore. I think that says a lot for that era.

[Rileybobs]

Funny how you mention all the Rovers fans at school, it today was the same for me, most were United a fair split between Rovers and Burnley I’d say.

Burnley and Rovers fans were genuine fans on the whole, but the United fans were your typical glory hunters who never went.

When I bumped into those Rovers fans some years later, I realised most of them had no interest in football anymore. I think that says a lot for that era.

Yeah pretty similar I think. Having lost contact with most of these people but still seeing what they’re up to on F book and the like, I don’t really see much active support for Rovers. All the United fans are armchair fans who just seem to bait Liverpool and Man City fans because presumably they don’t know how to cope without seeing their side being successful.

[ClaretTony]

Maybe they didn’t poach existing fans but they certainly took their share of that generation of fans. I was still at primary school (just) in Rossendale when Rovers won the league and the kids were mainly a mixture of Rovers and United fans. I bet if you go to that school now there will be a lot more kids supporting Burnley.

A good mate of mine isn’t a huge football fan but was a Rovers season ticket holder as a kid. I talked him into getting a Burnley season ticket for him and his son, who’s now a big Burnley fan - hopefully they’ll be able to use it soon!

A lot different for me. As I mentioned I was brought up a two minute walk from the turnstiles. There weren’t two similar clubs similar distances away and, in any case, my dad told me that Blackburn were rubbish. It could never be anyone but Burnley for me so I guess I don’t understand people switching. I do know that we lost a lot of fans in the 80s but no idea where most of them went or how many came back. It was almost a chore going in those days but I’d already been a Claret for a quarter of a century and couldn’t ever throw that away.

[Rileybobs]

A lot different for me. As I mentioned I was brought up a two minute walk from the turnstiles. There weren’t two similar clubs similar distances away and, in any case, my dad told me that Blackburn were rubbish. It could never be anyone but Burnley for me so I guess I don’t understand people switching. I do know that we lost a lot of fans in the 80s but no idea where most of them went or how many came back. It was almost a chore going in those days but I’d already been a Claret for a quarter of a century and couldn’t ever throw that away.

Yeah - i think if you live in the town then it must be different. But when I first remember supporting Burnley we were in the fourth division, so a child from Rossendale had all the big teams (and Rovers) to choose from and even the likes of Bury, Rochdale, Bolton etc. I was indoctrinated by my dad and my grandparents were also Burnley fans so fortunately I had little choice.

I think we’re now well placed to hoover up the floating fans who in the 90’s would have become Rovers fans. Like my mate who takes his lad on to Burnley despite not having a history of supporting us.

[ClaretTony]

One area of interest is around Keighley & Skipton. We used to dominate that area back in the day but then we declined and Leeds moved forwards. I think we lost a generation from that area then.

It is totally different though if you are born & brought up in a town which has its own club.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Folk who swap clubs aren't really fans of any club, they are just football fans.

Mainly a Sky Sports and computer game generation.

[ClaretTony]

Folk who swap clubs aren't really fans of any club, they are just football fans.

Mainly a Sky Sports and computer game generation.

What would you do if your club went bust? I ask that question because I know one Burnley fan who that happened to which is why he’s now a Claret.

[gandhisflipflop]

I was under the impression that any potential takeover would be in the small investment area that would allow us to get the transfers over the line we struggle with at the moment....to allow us to compete... but earlier on the Nixon thread i was told it was more likely to involve big money that would change the stature of the club.

Maybe that's why they are being so quiet about it, to stop other clubs coming in for these new owners.

[Bin Ont Turf]

What would you do if your club went bust? I ask that question because I know one Burnley fan who that happened to which is why he’s now a Claret.

It would be done and dusted for me. All the experiences and memories, it wouldn't be right following another club, just couldn't do it.

To me following a club is heart led, not head led.

I'd obviously watch a bit of footy, big matches, England etc, but I wouldn't be going on a ground as a fan of any club.

[SparkyClaret]

Just to pick up on poaching fans from Preston & Blackburn. Let’s go back to the Jack Walker days when they were so far ahead of us it was frightening. Did they ever poach any of our fans?

Perhaps poaching wasn't the correct term. Broading our base of appeal might fit better. I went to uni in Lancaster in the very early 2000s and there were advertisements for coaches to Ewood all of the shop in Lancaster and Morecambe. Now that Burnley are in a better position, why not try and entice people from outside the parish to come to Turf Moor? Again, I'm not saying it's worked for Rovers in the long run, but if it helps get people through the door and coins in the coffers what have we got to lose?

[Vegas Claret]

my dad told me that Blackburn were rubbish.

Sounds like your dad knew his onions !!

[ewanrob]

I think the numbers who would ever consider switching club is so minimal it could never make a difference although I could imagine someone getting an interest in the game would choose the one doing better.

I’m a glory hunter. My dad took me when we were top of the league. Having said that, it might have had more to do with the fact that we lived around 2 minutes walk from the turnstiles.

My dad brought me, 40 minute trip coming...hour going home. I was always on at him to buy a house next to the shop....green with envy.

[ClaretTony]

My dad brought me, 40 minute trip coming...hour going home. I was always on at him to buy a house next to the shop....green with envy.

Living so close to the Turf from birth has meant that this recent gap is the longest I've ever gone without seeing the place. I was there on 12th March for a meeting with Dave Baldwin and the only time I've seen it since was on 10th August when I went past on the way home from the dentist.

[dandeclaret]

A lot different for me. As I mentioned I was brought up a two minute walk from the turnstiles. There weren’t two similar clubs similar distances away and, in any case, my dad told me that Blackburn were rubbish. It could never be anyone but Burnley for me so I guess I don’t understand people switching. I do know that we lost a lot of fans in the 80s but no idea where most of them went or how many came back. It was almost a chore going in those days but I’d already been a Claret for a quarter of a century and couldn’t ever throw that away.

Imagine starting in the 80's - say first game 1985, 1st season ticket that you were allowed to use 1986..... and thinking it was great because you got the player autographs every week. Well almost every week - wasn't allowed to leave the seat for the last game of the season for some reason.... I think it was a bit busy from memory.

Anyway, heard this investor has been booked to appear on Radio Lancashire during the phone in - he said that he just has to push the button for the money to be transferred. The lad who runs the phone in says it's legit, so I believe him.

[ClaretTony]

Oh yes - the button

[NewClaret]

Maybe they didn’t poach existing fans but they certainly took their share of that generation of fans. I was still at primary school (just) in Rossendale when Rovers won the league and the kids were mainly a mixture of Rovers and United fans. I bet if you go to that school now there will be a lot more kids supporting Burnley.

A good mate of mine isn’t a huge football fan but was a Rovers season ticket holder as a kid. I talked him into getting a Burnley season ticket for him and his son, who’s now a big Burnley fan - hopefully they’ll be able to use it soon!

This is spot on. Locally, there are a lot more young Burnley fans. I see it at my sins football training where claret is now the dominant colour in amongst the United, City and Liverpool shirts.

I think kids support who their Dads tell them to support. Many I know don’t care at all about the team whose shirt they’re wearing. A fair few have never been to watch their team play, or are very jealous of my kids watching Burnley. Sometimes their parents call me asking if I’ll take them with me!

I do think the club could do a lot more to get these kids in the ground and supporting Burnley.

[aggi]

I entirely missed this at the time (I suspect chesterperry posted it in the MMT thread) but valuations of the Premier League clubs based on their latest accounts. It's based on the Markham model which I've referenced somewhere in this thread. Personally I think it overvalues clubs like ours because it doesn't factor in the chance of relegation but it's interesting all the same.

http://priceoffootball.com/2728-2/

[Chester Perry]

I entirely missed this at the time (I suspect chesterperry posted it in the MMT thread) but valuations of the Premier League clubs based on their latest accounts. It's based on the Markham model which I've referenced somewhere in this thread. Personally I think it overvalues clubs like ours because it doesn't factor in the chance of relegation but it's interesting all the same.

http://priceoffootball.com/2728-2/

There has been many a debate around that valuation method Aggi - you have been part of a few - but what it underlines is just how difficult it would be for a new investor to come in and grow the business that is Burnley FC, which is why it is so difficult to bring one on board and why many investors look at what other local opportunities are available to help give them an overall return - which is why I tipped Hull City (and Liverpool) earlier this week when stories emerged about the Government wanting to set-up as many as 10 Freeports around the country to help maintain trade with the EU

[Vegas Claret]

that's has us valued more than Leicester..............ok

[Paul Waine]

that's has us valued more than Leicester..............ok

How the model works - comments on Burnley - from aggi's link.

9: Burnley £350 million (2018 8th: £398 million)

Burnley’s regular appearance in the top half of the valuatoin table always provokes queries, but ultimatly reflects that they are in many ways the club that punches above their weight both on and off the pitch.

Burnley’s income decreased slightly in 2018/19 despite participation in the Europa League. A fall from 7th to 15th in the Premier League meant far lower prize money (this works out at about £2m per place in the final table) which offset the additional revenue from Europe.

Burnley’s success is built around a modest wage and transfer fee budget. They usually recruit domestic players who have proved themselves to be successful in the Championship.

Burnley have not required any cash injections from their owners for a decade and have the ability to deliver profits on an annual basis when they are in the Premier League and modest losses when in the Championship.

[Chester Perry]

How the model works - comments on Burnley - from aggi's link.

9: Burnley £350 million (2018 8th: £398 million)

Burnley’s regular appearance in the top half of the valuatoin table always provokes queries, but ultimatly reflects that they are in many ways the club that punches above their weight both on and off the pitch.

Burnley’s income decreased slightly in 2018/19 despite participation in the Europa League. A fall from 7th to 15th in the Premier League meant far lower prize money (this works out at about £2m per place in the final table) which offset the additional revenue from Europe.

Burnley’s success is built around a modest wage and transfer fee budget. They usually recruit domestic players who have proved themselves to be successful in the Championship.

Burnley have not required any cash injections from their owners for a decade and have the ability to deliver profits on an annual basis when they are in the Premier League and modest losses when in the Championship.

I don't think anyone is too comfortable with this valuation approach, but as Paul suggests there are specific elements of our approach that helps exaggerate our value in this model.

I posted a recent Football Financial Directors survey last week on the MMT thread and that had interesting numbers re the multiple of revenues for club valuations and would see us at a more realistic number. This being another one of the approaches much discussed on the MMT thread over the years. This of course begs the question of just what is the multiple and the ranges were surprising especially for the bigger clubs, though ours is is likely to be in the 1.6 to 2.2 times revenue spectrum I would say.