The FA cup alive and well

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cricketfieldclarets
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The FA cup alive and well

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:37 pm

For all the stick it gets, should Man City overcome Newcastle the semis will be Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal.

39 final wins between them. 64 final appearances between them. Newcastle themselves have 6 wins from 13 finals.

Whatever people say, the big boys take it seriously. City have a very strong side out today.

Shame the fans can’t be there for these semis. But should make for some entertaining free football on tv.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:39 pm

the big boys can rest players and still put out a top side - it's the rest of the teams, like us, who play weakened teams that have ruined it imho

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:42 pm

Was gone as a top competition long before teams started fielding weakened teams. You have to be of an age now to remember the days when it was a special competition.
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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:47 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Was gone as a top competition long before teams started fielding weakened teams. You have to be of an age now to remember the days when it was a special competition.
I used to love watching it growing up, watching the coach drive from the hotels to wembley etc, not been the same since the PL started $$$$$$$$

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:49 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Was gone as a top competition long before teams started fielding weakened teams. You have to be of an age now to remember the days when it was a special competition.
No you don’t. It still is.

The champions league is no different. Over saturated tv coverage is the problem. But the quality of play and competition itself is still great.

Like with anything it’s easy to look back on the good old days.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:01 pm

It's been several years since it's been a special competition.

Bit by bit the powers that be have eroded what made it unique. Everything from a Manchester United team not entering it one year, to the scrapping of multiple replays, to the ending of actual replays being played the following week, to the semi finals now also being played at Wembley... the list goes on.
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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:01 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:47 pm
I used to love watching it growing up, watching the coach drive from the hotels to wembley etc, not been the same since the PL started $$$$$$$$
It was bigger than the league. Huge crowds right through and then there was final day.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Grumps » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:01 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:49 pm
No you don’t. It still is.

The champions league is no different. Over saturated tv coverage is the problem. But the quality of play and competition itself is still great.

Like with anything it’s easy to look back on the good old days.
It's definitely an age thing. When I was growing up the FA cup was a massive thing, big crowds in every round, on final day TV coverage would start at 10am, the country came to a standstill. Nowadays nobody watches, live or on TV in comparison

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by EarbyClaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:08 pm

The competition has been decimated by TV - it still has the potential to be as exciting as it was when I was kid (70s/80s) but it's sadly become diluted and second rate

FAC 3rd round - first Saturday in January - 32 games - authentic matches between the best 11 v 11 across all four divisions with a smattering of the best from outside the FL - bumper crowds and genuine upsets. Possible to recreate that but football needs to be genuinely re-positioned to achieve it. If it doesn't happen now it never will
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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Dyched » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:10 pm

I remember when it was still great. Late 90’s early 2000s. Probably around 2005 it lost it’s appeal. Having the semis at Wembley ruins what it’s about. Teams like us resting players also killed it. Tops teams always swapped and changed. When Giggs scored that goal against Arsenal he was a sub. Also remember a stunning semi final between Arsenal and Sheff Utd. Seaman with the greatest save possibly ever from Peschisloidoo or however you spell it.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by boatshed bill » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:12 pm

In the mid to late 70s we used to have cup final day parties. We'd go to a mate's place and watch the build up right through to the presentation...with beers and half-time sandwiches.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:12 pm

EarbyClaret wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:08 pm
The competition has been decimated by TV - it still has the potential to be as exciting as it was when I was kid (70s/80s) but it's sadly become diluted and second rate

FAC 3rd round - first Saturday in January - 32 games - authentic matches between the best 11 v 11 across all four divisions with a smattering of the best from outside the FL - bumper crowds and genuine upsets. Possible to recreate that but football needs to be genuinely re-positioned to achieve it. If it doesn't happen now it never will
It’s been decimated by a lot of things. It’s more important to finish fourth in the league than win the cup.

I never thought I’d see the day when clubs reduced prices to get people on cup games.

It is an age thing but when you’ve witnessed the competition as it once was it’s impossible not to realise that it isn’t anything special now. If you got to the final then that would be different.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:21 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:01 pm
It was bigger than the league. Huge crowds right through and then there was final day.
yep, i guess other than the european games it was one of the only competitions broadcast on TV - I don't remember league games being on tv, it was Saint and Greavsie and Match of the Day !

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by timshorts » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:27 pm

It probably needs a play-off between the 4th place team and the cup winners for the fourth champions league spot.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:33 pm

Not the same number of giant-killers since they went to playing on the one size fits all carpet the game is now played.
Most of the upsets my generation can remember were on mud heaps.
Hereford v Newcastle
Wrexham v Arsenal
Us v Wimbledon
Blyth Spartans cup run.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Buxtonclaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:37 pm

The 1st round proper draw used to be one of the highlights of the sporting year once.
Seeing who the non league sides would get.
Then get Christmas/New Year league 'derbys' out of the way and it would be the 3rd round.
Another huge sporting date.

Recently, the Beeb has tried to recapture a bit of past magic.
It's gone though.
For lots of reasons. But mainly money.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Vino blanco » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:38 pm

In my 60 odd years watching the Clarets the biggest gates I have seen (over 50k) were in the FA Cup. But CT has it right, it is now much more important to finish in the top 4 of the PL than to progress in the cup. And for clubs like ours and those around and below us staying in the PL is the most important goal in football.
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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:40 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:33 pm
Not the same number of giant-killers since they went to playing on the one size fits all carpet the game is now played.
Most of the upsets my generation can remember were on mud heaps.
Hereford v Newcastle
Wrexham v Arsenal
Us v Wimbledon
Blyth Spartans cup run.
When it comes to mud heaps, the Hereford v Newcastle game stands out. That would just get called off now. There was one similar in 1959 when Nottingham Forest travelled to Tooting & Mitchem, to call that pitch a mud heap was an understatement. The difference was, Forest scraped a draw, won the replay and went on to win the cup.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:41 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:38 pm
And for clubs like ours and those around and below us staying in the PL is the most important goal in football.
And the manager makes no apologies for it either. He always says he's putting out a team that can win the game whilst also pointing out what the real priority is.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by EarbyClaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:47 pm

It will never be what it was but seems there are several quick fixes that could at least give it a shot in the arm

Subsidised prices fro kids/non ST holders

Make it midweek (Tuesdays/Wednesdays) - might make for stronger starting 11s

No replays - straight to pens no ET

Regionalisation up to say R3/R4 to increase the chances of Rochdale v United, Cambridge v Leicester and Southend v Arsenal

Also agree the ultimate 'prize' needs to be meaningful in terms of European qualification

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Vino blanco » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:52 pm

The mention of FA Cup mud heaps brings to mind our 2-2 draw at Bradford City away in 1960. I went to the game and can honestly say it was possibly the worst pitch I have ever seen Burnley play on. We had a great footballing team but we were limited most of the game to hoofing in the air simply because it was impossible to play it on the deck

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by EarbyClaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:55 pm

That sums it up in a nutshell - ask anyone of a certain age what epitomizes the FA Cup and they will say Hereford v Newcastle in 1972 - the competition has failed to produce a moment of that significance in the best part of 50 years

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by martin_p » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:01 pm

EarbyClaret wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:55 pm
That sums it up in a nutshell - ask anyone of a certain age what sums up the FA Cup and they will say Hereford v Newcastle in 1972 - the competition has failed to produce a moment of that significance in the best part of 50 years
I wouldn’t go that far. It was certainly still a big exciting competition through the 70s and 80s. Started it’s slow decent downhill when the Premier League started.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by EarbyClaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:06 pm

martin_p wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:01 pm
I wouldn’t go that far. It was certainly still a big exciting competition through the 70s and 80s. Started it’s slow decent downhill when the Premier League started.
It probably depends on your age - Keith Houchen's flying header was special - Ryan Giggs' solo goal at Villa Park v Arsenal - but standout moments (in my opinion) have been few and far between since the 70s/80s

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:07 pm

EarbyClaret wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:47 pm


Make it midweek (Tuesdays/Wednesdays) - might make for stronger starting 11s

No replays - straight to pens no ET

Regionalisation up to say R3/R4 to increase the chances of Rochdale v United, Cambridge v Leicester and Southend v Arsenal

Those are three more nails in the coffin for me

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by DCWat » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:13 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:07 pm
Those are three more nails in the coffin for me
Agreed - the one thing it needs is for the winners to receive a Champions League place, at the expense of one in the league.

Replays should stay (give small clubs the opportunities to earn a replay at one of the big boys).

FA Cup games should be Saturdays, not midweek (barring replays) when crowds would be less.

There also shouldn’t be regionalisation - the format is successful and gives everyone the opportunity to play anyone else.

The format hasn’t gone stale, it’s the focus on the Premier League money and the UCL that has impacted on national cup competitions.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by EarbyClaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:26 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:07 pm
Those are three more nails in the coffin for me
What (if anything) do you think would revitalise it?

In its current format and the way it's regarded by managers like SD - and many others - it's dying on its feet.

Personally I'd rather it was scrapped altogether than see this sad demise from former glory

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by joey13 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:31 pm

Still my worst ever feeling after game ,think you all know which one :(

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Silkyskills1 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:34 pm

Look at the cup fixtures we had in 60,61,62 and compare the attendances to league games.either side of them. Some thrilling games I recall and not always involving my team. Minnows raised their game especially on their own patch, people paid at.the gate to see.it.and were.locked.out.if they didn't get there early enough. Replays under the lights whetted appetites and it was a.battle to the end if more replays were.needed. Now the result is just contrived. The four teams that have made the semis this year are ones you would expect before the competition.got under way. It's now no more than a stale competition playing second fiddle to final league placings. A lot.of people still recall Ronnie Radford's name but how many of.his ilk have there been since. Dickie Guy for Wimbledon, Joe Waters for Leicester in '74; whatever happened to him and Alan Shoulder for Blyth Spartans a.few years later. Perhaps it's because we haven't done cup runs.recently but.I will always remember the 3rd round draw from.Lancaster Gate around 12.22 on a Monday lunchtime as a.'must listen' even if your team had been knocked out. Now it.just.seems like an interruption to a.season.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by EarbyClaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:35 pm

joey13 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:31 pm
Still my worst ever feeling after game ,think you all know which one :(
That can't help but colour the thoughts of any Claret of a certain age :|

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Foulthrow » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:38 pm

Everyone knows that the easy solution is to make the winners of the cup get to receive a Champions League place.

But it’s never going to happen because the tv companies can make more money through the PL than they can through the cup. With the PL you are guaranteed 38 ‘match weeks’ of ten games of relatively high standard competition. Are you going to reduce the appeal of that product for a competition that might throw up the odd belter but have other games that are fairly meaningless, especially to an international audience.

This is why the Champions League replaced the old knockout style European Cup. So much better, from a financial point of view, to have the same teams playing out year after year. Sponsors like it. It might be less exciting for us as football fans but cash is king.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by DCWat » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:41 pm

Foulthrow wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:38 pm
Everyone knows that the easy solution is to make the winners of the cup get to receive a Champions League place.

But it’s never going to happen because the tv companies can make more money through the PL than they can through the cup. With the PL you are guaranteed 38 ‘match weeks’ of ten games of relatively high standard competition. Are you going to reduce the appeal of that product for a competition that might throw up the odd belter but have other games that are fairly meaningless, especially to an international audience.

This is why the Champions League replaced the old knockout style European Cup. So much better, from a financial point of view, to have the same teams playing out year after year. Sponsors like it. It might be less exciting for us as football fans but cash is king.
Would it really devalue it, if third or even fourth place weren’t guaranteed a CL place? It would be nearer to being a ‘champions’ league.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by EarbyClaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:49 pm

Anyone remember Chris Kelly - 'the Leatherhead Lip' took a 2-0 lead at Leicester before going down 3-2 -again rooted in the 1970s - much like the competition itself
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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Silkyskills1 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:02 pm

The appeal of the FA Cup was it's unpredictability, semi finals at a neutral ground then final day itself which was mostly an anti-climax but compelling. There was a lap of honour for the winners, disappointment for the losers and that was that. It was the end of that particular football season. Always next year!

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 pm

Maybe it’s an age thing but from 2000 onwards I think I’d struggle to name the teams who played each other in the final.

Just seemed to feel more important when for example we reached the 3rd round like against Man City and then of course the famous Derby ties under Mullen.

Then the neutral venues and the whole lead up on Grandstand to the final itself.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Longsidelenny1882 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:12 pm

Think all premier league clubs should be made to play with 10 men and not play any home ties doesn’t matter then if they take it serious or not they have ruined the once famous fa cup utc

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by addisclaret » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:26 pm

The final used to be an epic day all the way from 10ish in the morning with the It's a Knockout between the two sets of supporters being the best bit.
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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:42 pm

I think in the last 25 years the winners have been mainly the top teams in the PL, with only 2 exceptions that I recall.

That's why the FA Cup is dying.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by tiger76 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:42 pm

EarbyClaret wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:55 pm
That sums it up in a nutshell - ask anyone of a certain age what epitomizes the FA Cup and they will say Hereford v Newcastle in 1972 - the competition has failed to produce a moment of that significance in the best part of 50 years
Sutton knocking Coventry the then holders out in the 3rd round in 1988, must rank pretty close, Chesterfield's run all the way to the semi's, where they were robbed by a dodgy penalty, also remains in the memory. but i must admit Lincoln apart, i can't remember many genuine giant-killings in recent years.

The main thing that's ruined it for me is 3rd day being played in the 1st week in January, i know that's it's traditional date in the calendar, but how many sides field their first XI, they'll generally use this as a chance to rest the key players, post the hectic festive schedule, and this squad rotation is by no means limited to just PL and Championship clubs, even some lower league managers/chairman will prioritise the league campaign above a cup run.

It's worth noting that as well as Arsenal, Chelsea, and both Manchester sides making up the last 4 in the FA Cup. The last 4 in the League Cup which is traditionally the poor relation was, Aston Villa, Leicester, and again the 2 Manchester clubs, and Villa only made it that far due to Liverpool fielding a 2nd/3rd string side in the qf.

What this shows is the strength in depth the big clubs have, and this probably goes a long way to explaining their continued presence in the latter stages of tournaments.

From a BFC POV rightly or wrongly, the gaffer decides it's not worth risking our PL place for the sake of advancing a round or two further, and as much as this galls, i can see the logic, we're unlikely to win a domestic cup, yes we reached the League Cup semi's under Coyle, but it's worth bearing in mind that we defeated Chelsea on penalties, squeezed past Fulham with a late Jay Rod goal, and in the qf's Arsene picked a lot of his reserves, it was a great run, but one that we're unlikely to repeat in the near future.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by tiger76 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:12 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:42 pm
I think in the last 25 years the winners have been mainly the top teams in the PL, with only 2 exceptions that I recall.

That's why the FA Cup is dying.
Portsmouth and Wigan are the 2 expectations that spring to mind, and look where they both are now, indeed Wigan got relegated in their cup-winning season, and this is the lesson a lot of middling PL clubs will always consider when it comes to attempting to compete on multiple fronts.

The last 2nd division side to lift the cup must be Southampton in 76, so it's not a new phenomenon for the usual suspects to lift the cup, even looking back to the pre-PL era, there's only a handful of finalists outwith the big boys, Coventry & Wimbledon in the late 80's both gatecrashed the party, but it's worth bearing in mind, both were top 10 1st division teams at this time, so although mild surprises it wasn't exactly bolts from the blue when they both lifted the cup. And even going further back in time, it's often the powerhouse teams of the period who heavily feature in the finals, hardly surprising when you think about it.

The problem is that 30/40 years ago if you finished mid-table in the 1st division but had a cup run, or even lifted the trophy itself it was deemed a successful season, now everything is geared to either finishing top 4, or surviving in the PL, i wonder if you asked Leicester fans whether they'd rather finish top 4, or win one of the domestic cups, what their answer would be, i'd say most will want to win a cup, in 20/30 years nobody will remember that they qualified for the CL, but if they had gained silverware that'll be remembered forever, and that achievement will always be a piece of a club's history, even now on this site people talk about the 1914, 1921 and 1960 teams as they lifted major trophies, and I've no doubt once we're all long gone, our offspring will still read about the likes of Bert Freeman, George Beel, and the great 1960 title winning side, that's the nature of football supporters, do you think Tottenham fans will remember Poch's era in 50 years, i doubt it, but i'll bet they'll remember their 2008 triumph in the Carling Cup long in the memory.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Wile E Coyote » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:36 pm

It is totally devoid of emotion, the cup is a tired , pale shadow of what it once was.
The only people that will try to convince you otherwise are the squalid media outlets and betting companies who hope to inject nostalgia into the equation, it can never work, its a poor tournament and most supporters see it for what it is.
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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:44 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 pm
Maybe it’s an age thing but from 2000 onwards I think I’d struggle to name the teams who played each other in the final.

I'm the same, but I'd probably say 5/10 years before 2000. I can't even remember the last time I watched an FA Cup Final.

It p1ssed me off when they started playing it in another country just because Wembley was being rebuilt.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:12 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:42 pm
I think in the last 25 years the winners have been mainly the top teams in the PL, with only 2 exceptions that I recall.

That's why the FA Cup is dying.
I think that’s right.

No wonder teams like Burnley play weakened sides for these games when inevitably we will be knocked out by one of the big clubs. I’d love the odd cup run but inevitably we will draw Man City or the likes and be knocked out.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by gandhisflipflop » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:21 am

I remember taking a radio into school for the 2003 (I think) quarter final draw and being excited that we had drawn Watford away as I genuinely thought we could be that years Wycombe or Chesterfield. Also remember that giant killing away at derby winning 0-2 back when derby was a big fish and the butterflies of the 4th round draw and being excited at drawing Coventry. Ok I accept it's not as far back as most on here but as a youngster it still had that magic about it. I agree with the post further up when they said 2005 onwards it started to lose its appeal. If I was to reform the game I'd scrap the Europa League and reintroduce the cup winners cup for the winners of the fa cup with a huge financial incentive of both winning the fa cup and participating in the CWC. Winning the CWC would be a passage to the CL. The league cup can go for me.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by Goody1975 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:00 am

What semi finals used to be like.

https://youtu.be/RvdlXpjtxDA

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by thelaughingclaret » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:56 am

Theres money now in finishing just a couple of places higher in the league then winning the FA cup. At one time if you have said win the fa cup or finish 15th instead of 10th to any club they'd choose the cup for sure, but now that isn’t the case. It is all down to money. You can say it is a bunch of things, and it is, but all of the things at the end come back to money. Europe is the only cup competition big clubs care about now, and just the champions league not the europa league at that. The reason? You guessed it! Money.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by ashtonlongsider » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:50 am

Man United skipping the competition in 2000 to venture to Brazil to compete in the World Club Championship for me was a big mistake, seriously damaged the integrity of the competition from which it's never fully recovered. May not be all United's fault as they went with the FA's blessing if I'm not mistaken but you've got to protect the interests of the domestic game above all else.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by mdd2 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:45 am

1980 was the last time 2nd division beat the 1sr. WHU 1Arsenal 0

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by claret2018 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:19 am

The prize money for winning it is next to nothing, so only the richest teams can afford to take it seriously.

Add in the fact there is so much football available to watch now, it is just another game on tv, except without the ‘glamour’ of the PL or CL.

I’d happily see one of the FA Cup or League Cup gone.

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Re: The FA cup alive and well

Post by martin_p » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:08 am

EarbyClaret wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:06 pm
It probably depends on your age - Keith Houchen's flying header was special - Ryan Giggs' solo goal at Villa Park v Arsenal - but standout moments (in my opinion) have been few and far between since the 70s/80s
There were some great cup finals in the late 70s and 80s. Alan Sunderland’s late winner against Man United, the Ricky Villa goal for Spurs, ‘Smith must score’, the Crazy Gang.

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