Does SD Learn

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KateR
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Does SD Learn

Post by KateR » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:32 pm

Thinking about yesterdays game and then going back and applying to several instances I wonder how much he learns and then actually applies in training and games when he is forced into having to do things he would never do, could also apply to us as fans in terms of nashing teeth and pulling our hair out.

No striker available beyond the multiheaded one and McNeil goes in as number 10 for a start and a full game, the first half is one of the best seen for quite a while, imo at least. Not a new formation but with different players, does it become part of the game plan even when we have our strikers back

Heaton get's injured and a new England GK and Burnley favorite emerges.

Austin goes, I think we got Sam at that point, one of my favorites and we really don't miss a beat.

Can't remember (think Brady) who but injury allows McNeil to step in and the rest is history

Injury allows Tarks to step in followed by MK's departure to Everton.

Gibson not in the right frame of mind as Tarks was, waiting patiently, could he have been used occasionally beyond cup games and have avoided this fall out?

Hendrick not willing to stay and Brownhill steps in and looks for all the world like he will be as good or better.

Any others people remember?

SD appears to be incredibly loyal to his first team even, win or lose and seems to be he rotates only through injury, also maybe thinks the player waiting in the wing is not up to it and is there only as cover. This also applies to formation, seen us try a few times and like yesterday it offers an alternative that surprises opposition because we seem to be completely wedded to the 4-4-2. For incoming players for next season do we need more strikers, will we play more in yesterday formation and like for wide tricky/fast players and keep McNeil at number 10 for the future, I hope so then we can adapt, change shape, etc.

I would certainly like to see him more proactive rather than retroactive but it's a small criticism, more of a critique actually. I think the club from top to bottom has done incredibly well for a while and I think the same group who make things happen will be with us at the start of next season.

For all the criticism of the Chairman, the board and the recruiting we have not done that bad in reality have we, surely we are perceived as a regular PL team now. I certainly see BFC in that way, we don't seem to be every pundits favorite for the drop before a ball is kicked anymore, which I love, few experts perceptions changed over the last few years, long may it continue.

I personally hate the statement about punching above your weight, I think the whole club has trained hard and deserve its rightful place at the head table and everyone's respect worldwide.
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Vegas Claret
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Vegas Claret » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:47 pm

The McNeil one - I think it was Jon Walters who said in an interview that McNeil is actually a midfielder - so that was a no brainer of a decision

Rowls
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Rowls » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:50 pm

Interesting post KateR.

Our near constant upward trajectory since Dyche took over inclines me to believe that Sean Dyche does indeed learn. He spoke about learning very often in his first Premier League campaign with us.

That ended in relegation but if you chart our results during the season, our form was improving all the time.

There's clearly a much wider truth in what you say - he doesn't very often change things of his own volition. But then again, we've normally been winning when he's in charge. Why, for example, would we have changed things when we were top of the league.

The one time he did start to change things up a little bit was the first half of last season when we were in real relegation trouble. The final change he made was Heaton in for Hart and then things clicked.

I'm a great fan of Dyche (who isn't, eh?) but one of his core beliefs is in acting on loyalty to the players. That's something which cannot be measured easily but when you see performances like last night you can see the players repaying him. That was a performance that reflected their belief in the manager. He believes in them so they believe in him.

I also suspect that Dyche also has a keen eye on the theory of the "appeal to desperation". This is the logical fallacy / cognitive bias whereby people overestimate our ability or requirement to "do something" in order to affect a change. It's also known as the "something must be done" fallacy. He appears to apply it to his substitutions as much as to his team selections.

You've probably witnessed this in workplaces. A one-off event happens so a manager steps in to "do something" and creates a tedious procedure. The event does not happen again so the manager attributes this to their new procedure when in fact the event was caused by something a simple as a lack of conscientiousness, inexperience or poor supervision. So despite the one-off event always being unlikely to recur, the workplace is lumbered with an unnecessary procedure which falsely exhalts the manager and slows productivity. That's the antithesis of everything I imagine Sean Dyche is about.
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Dyched » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:52 pm

I don’t think he’ll be suited to a 442, in the middle. The only thing about last night is Vydra. Wood or Barnes wood come back in for him, but I’m sure Dyche would bring both back in so changing back to a 442. That would leave McNeil going back out to the left unfortunately.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by summitclaret » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:53 pm

Plus him finally getting that Mee was not really a left back and cb was his position after that poor team performance at Hull before the 23 23 etc. Add to that the sudden realisation to that Duff was past his best and that Keano should start.
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by FactualFrank » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:55 pm

The thing about McNeil is that I remember an interview where he mentioned he wanted to replicate Ryan Giggs. This suggested to me that he saw himself as a left midfielder/winger.
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Vegas Claret » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:58 pm

Dyche doesn't suffer fools and very rarely makes excuses - he mentioned it last night in a post match interview that he told the players that the lack of numbers isn't an excuse for them not to perform - they clearly buy into it

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Blackrod » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:04 pm

I think he has mentioned he is constantly learning and developing. Whilst his hand was forced a bit he always knew McNeil could play there. Now we have the evidence to suggest it could work for us again as an option. He will also have seen that Pieters was more than comfortable further forward. The use of it going forward will depend on fitness of players. Hopefully someone else will be fit if Cork is out for the next game.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Vegas Claret » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:19 pm

I think Dyche has learned, if you look at the dreadful football we were playing two seasons ago and compare it to what we see now, for the most part, it's miles better.
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:25 pm

summitclaret wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:53 pm
Plus him finally getting that Mee was not really a left back and cb was his position after that poor team performance at Hull before the 23 23 etc. Add to that the sudden realisation to that Duff was past his best and that Keano should start.
That's incorrect apart from the Duff bit.

The change of the defence was purely down to Duff being past it. Keane was already starting at that time and we had Ward for left back so Ben could move over.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by BenWickes » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:26 pm

I'd like to think Sean Dyche brings in players who are quite versatile anyway. He expects us to defend as a unit and attacking players to track back. Always useful to have players who are capable of slotting straight in, albeit not their favoured position but they can do a job there.
McNeil is just a managers dream. Comfortable on the ball, quick feet, two footed, vision, control and getting better all the time.
Giving him the licence to attack pretty much anywhere across the midfield, gives the opposition a whole new headache. As undoubtedly manager's will pin point him as our main threat and double up on him down the left/right. Much more difficult when he's rampaging at them from all angles like last night.
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:35 pm

He has been over loyal at times. As said above the Hull defeat and the Everton drubbing both led to major changes. He saw the light. Folk on here had been calling for them changes for months. Not bigging myself up as I wasn’t one of them. I hope in future he will be happier to go to 3 at the back to defend away leads but last night it was forced on him.
Without argument he knows far more than any of us but he can be a stick in the mud.

KateR
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by KateR » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:36 pm

I think he learns also but often takes a long time to make the change or is forced in to it. The Mee at left back mentioned, was one I had forgotten, clearly showed that change was a benefit to the whole whole team. Yet I feel it sometimes takes an injury for him to make a change as he persists in what he is comfortable in and yes absolutely agree about not changing that winning team and mentally. Yet we have gone periods where we are not winning, changing Hart out for Heaton a prime example but it took quite a while as his loyalty prevented it in my opinion, here I could not see that change having any affect before it happened, I admit I was surprised in the performance of that simple swap.

Personally I think playing in the formation yesterday Vydra was the best striker we have suited to that position, his running and dragging defenders with him is better than all the others, yet I believe if JRod is fit for the next game we will play 4-4-2 and someone from yesterday drops out, Pieters most likely and McNeil moves wide again and we might not be as good as what we saw yesterday. Given the shortage of subs who could make a game change it was clear, for me anyway, that bringing Long on allowed us to see the game out, not suggesting we wouldn't without the injury and I like Cork a lot and hope he is back. I would like to see the same starting line up as yesterday for the next match even if JRod is deemed fit, we can always switch to 4-4-2 if not going well and also JRod doesn't have to do 90 mins.

Don't get me wrong I think SD was the best thing to happen for BFC and am fully behind him

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:48 pm

If anything this season has shown him that he has more players in his squad that he can trust to come in and start games (even though his hand had been forced), and still play to win, along with the fact that the team can be much more flexible in the way they play offensively.

He brought players into the squad so that we could be more flexible in the way can play in possession, the question mark (I presume) was over whether they could play the required structure and concentration out of possession, the answer since New Year is yes, and possibly in a more versatile way too, as we have seen both the high and low press (sometimes in the same game).

You could argue that this is one of the reasons why the Chairman (and possibly Rigg) were comfortable in their stance over contract extensions. With a fit squad and some younger fresh faces given time to bed in on the training pitches we could be ok next season.
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by warksclaret » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:48 pm

With major shortage of players McNeil can be like an impact sub. He can start wide but move into the same position as last night and cause sides problems when you need to change things round. Yesterday was a great experiment and worked really well. Unfortunately everytime Burnley are featured on TV he is now singled out-his worth is going up game by game. We are owed some luck though

KateR
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by KateR » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:07 pm

definitely his stock is going up and it is always a double edged sword especially for a team like BFC, just need to ensure we get the right price and a replacement identified, the only constant we have is change yet the change has been well managed. We didn't miss a heartbeat when MK or Heaton to Everton/AV, just need to ensure the same when McNeil departs, as he surely will but hopefully not before we complete next season.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by 1968claret » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:07 pm

In my Job I lead a team of about 100 people. So I get sent on various leadership courses and events. There are always new theories and styles. TED talks, new books (FED is one of the latest).

When asked which gurus or books I listen too. I tell them none of them. I just listen to Sean Dyche. :)
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Hipper » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:56 pm

The Everton drubbing was unexpected though.

Whilst not getting the results our performances were improving at the time against the big boys so the Everton performance was a big shock.

I get the impression he does not do changes lightly. He prefers to rely on those who have earned his trust and likes the idea of a regular line-up to get them to learn to play together. You can see this with the introduction of Rodriguez. At first he didn't impress but as the other players got on his wavelength he started to look the part.

Keeping practically the same line-up is a bit 'old school' but it works for us generally.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Rowls » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:00 pm

1968claret wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:07 pm
In my Job I lead a team of about 100 people. So I get sent on various leadership courses and events. There are always new theories and styles. TED talks, new books (FED is one of the latest).

When asked which gurus or books I listen too. I tell them none of them. I just listen to Sean Dyche. :)
Same here. And I understand the problems caused when your directors don't back you up.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by dsr » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:17 pm

I'm not sure about the first half yesterday being the best for a long while. How many goals did we score? How many near-goals did we create? Lots of pretty football - but it's worthless without goals.

One of the reasons Sean Dyche likes having two goalscorers on the field, I am convinced, is that he thinks we have a better chance of scoring goals that way. The team has two jobs - stop goals going in at one end, score them at the other. Certain clubs, including Watford and Bournemouth, appear to have forgotten that.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by Woonderbah » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:50 pm

It was a refreshing change tho to see us control the ball and dictate a bit more.
And I think McNeil being so comfortable in possession played a huge part in that.
It brings out more in Westwood and Cork too, particularly Cork in the way that Defour used to.
Everyone seemed to raise their game last night and looked comfortable.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by MrTopTier » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:58 pm

An easy answer would be yes. However he and the question deserve a more appropriate answer.

Is there another profession that is a cut throat as a football manager, if you don’t learn and learn fast you are out of a job it is that simple, longevity is no longer an option, so to survive this long shows his adaptability.

He has always been an advocate of the team and treating players with respect and as adults. The positive culture and the recognition of the limitations of a club like Burnley have never stopped him trying to make the club the best it can be and in that respect that is were his success lies, promoted twice, 7th place finish and currently in line for another top 10 finish. Hard work an everything that comes from that is a basic tenet of his beliefs.

He does play 4 4 2 with a narrow shape and there is of time where we don’t have the ball, but he has tried 4 5 1 before it didn’t work when we first got relegated but he used it to good effect when we came 7th, but with the players we have had 4 4 2 fits his framework.

The team first and foremost is built on defence, the number of clean sheets and games were we win by a one goal margin is not a fluke it is down to work on the training ground and the analysis to target points against teams who are not in the top six is remarkable.

He himself is down to earth, read his interview about who his managerial influences are, John Duncan, Andy Boothroyd, Dick Bate and David Dodds, not exactly a who’s who of football, but that is the beauty of the man, down to earth, realistic and not getting ahead of himself, bit like the club he manages.

KateR
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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by KateR » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:10 pm

I can agree with all of that, but it's that time of year again and with finances obviously being tight, does he look to bring in players who will fit in the favored 4-4-2 or perhaps 4-4-1-1 or even 5-3-1-1 providing alternatives? Obviously he always, quite rightly, looks for versatile players who would fit in to any of those formations, but am personally thinking is it a wide pacy tricky kind or is it another CM. Don't think we can afford both and don't think we should be looking for a striker. As always at BFC, priorities will be required because we all know we wont be throwing money at numerous positions and if I had my choice wide player rather than CM, am sure he will know what he wants and the budget.

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Re: Does SD Learn

Post by MrTopTier » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:22 pm

Brownhill is a centre mid,Dwight could play as a 10 and as has been alluded to further up as a centre mid. Definitely need a wide player, JBG and Brady might get a season between them and with the loss of Lennon and Hendrick an out and out right sided midfielder is a must.

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