Landlord Advice - am I being swindled

[Claretmatt4]

Hi clarets, hope you're all well! I have a bit of a dispute with my landlord and hoped you could offer opinions and advice.

I recently vacated a 2 bed flat in the centre of Manchester after living there almost 3 years with a colleague. Before I vacated I cleaned the flat extensively, although I let my flatmate sort his room and bathroom. They weren't in a great state in truth and needed further cleaning.

When inspecting the property the letting agents have hired a cleaning firm to clean the flat professionally. Despite my protests that only two rooms needed it. I even offered to go and do it myself to save the fee. They shared photos on email the flat wasn't up to standards, but this was pretty much exclusively in the rooms my flatmate was in. The rest of the flat was very clean, I spent 2 days cleaning it!

The charge for this clean, including the oven (which we did with ovenpride a few days earlier) was £174. I contested this, and they shared an invoice.

I called the firm on the invoice and asked for a quote for a full deep clean of a flat at end of tenancy including the oven. I sent them pictures of the flat too. He quoted £85.

I then told the letting agency that after being quoted £85 from the firm that supposedly charged them £174, I'd pay £85 for the cleaning but not £174. I got no response.

Then the cleaning firm messaged me backtracking on the original quote. They said the quote of £85 was based on 4 hours. They also said that they charge letting agencies more than Joe public due to having to do it at short notice, raising invoices and collecting keys. He also said it was more for our flat because it was done on a Friday and Saturday. There is no reason why they would need to do it so soon and on a weekend as I'd done a video of the flat so they could do online viewings.

Am I being a d!ck here or am I rightfully annoyed. I wouldve thought a letting agent would get better rates than a punter because of the amount of properties they have - to me it sounds like they realised I've cottoned on and they've backtracked.

Any advice clarets? Should I pay up or stand firm. Fortunately I'm in a position where I don't need the deposit urgently for a new place so I can afford to wait it out. Thanks.

[FactualFrank]

I've heard of this before and I seem to remember that if you have 2-3 quotes and they all come out cheaper, then you shouldn't be expected to pay more than the most expensive one of those 2-3.

Although, I thought this was what the bond was for? That you pay 1 month in advance + another month's worth, which is used for any repairs that need to be undertaken? If anything is over what you put down as the bond, then tough. You don't have to pay more.

[Claretmatt4]

Yeah this will be coming out of our deposit which they hold. This gives them all the power unfortunately.

Interwsting on the three quote thing. I'll bear that in mind.

[Rowls]

You're rightfully annoyed.

Worth going to citizens advice on this one to find out where you stand. Sadly, your problem is most likely with your ex flatmate.

Something which I do, which is cheeky and technically which I couldn't recommend as it might be technically against the law, is withold my final month's rent whenever I move from rented property (or at least the value of the deposit) and that way you have equal leverage with letting agents and landlords.

I might add that I always leave the places in the same condition I found them, or better.

[aggi]

I've had similar. In my case it turned out that the cleaners were a subsidiary of the letting company. I'd have a quick check on companies house to make sure there aren't any obvious links.

They may well charge letting agencies more as, as you've discovered, there isn't any incentive for the letting agency to drive down the price as they're not paying. There may also be rebates that aren't being reflected in your invoice.

A few points to consider. Is your deposit lodged with the Tenancy Deposit Scheme or similar? If it is you can dispute it through there. If it isn't then you can separately challenge them on your deposit not being treated correctly.

What does the contract say? Does it make reference to professionally cleaned, just cleaned, same state as when you moved in, etc. Was there a checkout inventory, did that make any reference to cleanliness?

You're probably being somewhat screwed over but you may not get too far with the dispute.

[Jakubclaret]

Just pay up, as already mentioned your ex flatmate appears to be the problem, it can be a problem mutually sharing property as tenants when cleanliness issues arise usually goes unnoticed whilst in occupancy, it's when either or both move out problems emerge down the line, the agency are well within their rights & reserve the right to ensure the property is fit & ready for the next person, the inspection carried out merited the need, unless you've got invoices from a cleaning firm you decided to recruit as an alternative measure & photographs, you are pi**ing into the wind.

[Claretmatt4]

Just pay up, as already mentioned your ex flatmate appears to be the problem, it can be a problem mutually sharing property as tenants when cleanliness issues arise usually goes unnoticed whilst in occupancy, it's when either or both move out problems emerge down the line, the agency are well within their rights & reserve the right to ensure the property is fit & ready for the next person, the inspection carried out merited the need, unless you've got invoices from a cleaning firm you decided to recruit as an alternative measure & photographs, you are pi**ing into the wind.

I do have photos of the flat when we left. I can't see how cleaning two rooms and an oven costs £174!

My flatmate agreed to cover 2/3 of the cleaning bill, it's the principle of the letting agency I disagree with here.

[Vegas Claret]

at this stage I'm not sure you have much of a leg to stand on, however the letting agent really should have given you the quote before actioning it and and given you the opportunity to get some quotes yourself from other professional companies that you could then provide a receipt for - you would never be able to "clean" yourself if any letting agent is involved. So that is how I would approach it I think

[Jakubclaret]

I do have photos of the flat when we left. I can't see how cleaning two rooms and an oven costs £174!

My flatmate agreed to cover 2/3 of the cleaning bill, it's the principle of the letting agency I disagree with here.

They are trying it on & somebody's making a quick buck that's in no doubt, it's whether its worth arguing about or just to let it go, when you are younger you can take all the battles on as you get older you just know it's not worth the grief & just let it go, legally you are probably bang to rights can you really be arsed initially you are in a week or so you won't give a second thought.

[Quickenthetempo]

To be fair, if I never had a problem with them for 3 years I would happily pay for professional cleaners on leaving the property.

174 pound each seems steep though.

[SammyBoy]

Don’t landlords these days have to put your deposit essentially in escrow with a Tenancy Deposit Scheme or similar, look at your contract you should be in something like that. They basically adjudicate impartially on situations like this and resolve disputes over deposit returns.

In February I had practically the same situation as you and argued them down to half of what they wanted originally by threatening to go to the TDS.

[Claretmatt4]

Just checked and we are with the tenancy deposit scheme

[Rowls]

Just checked and we are with the tenancy deposit scheme

Good luck with it. Keep copies of any correspondence with them - hopefully you have an email of you offering to do the cleaning.

Get down to citizen advice ASAP and see what they say.

All the best with it.

[SammyBoy]

Just checked and we are with the tenancy deposit scheme

Threaten to take it to the TDS.

Even if the TDS side with the landlord you’ve lost nothing, and the hassle of this process won’t appeal to the landlord. Plus, if what you say is true the TDS will probably side with you.

Write them a big email claiming all the usual, fair wear and tear for certain issues, cheaper quotes elsewhere on the cleaning, if you had periodic inspections during your tenancy and nothing was flagged up then mention that etc etc. Basically whatever you can think of and say take my counter offer of £X or we’ll go to the TDS, it’s just a negotiation to be honest.

When I went through this I wanted to demand my entire deposit back and was prepared to go to the TDS because I didn’t care about the £150 they wanted either way. I only met them half way because my other half was pecking my head and just wanted to get it over and done with.

[Foulthrow]

Obviously no one gave a monkeys about this when I was in uni digs. I remember moving into one place and the beer was still dripping down off the ceiling from the party the previous tenants had the night before.

[claretgimmer]

I think legally the TDS company has to contact you re any claim made against your deposit by the landlord and then you should be able to put your case over.

[conyoviejo]

What is your colleague going to do about it ? Seems he's the problema

[IanMcL]

the only way out is to have evidence of before and after. That is to say, arrival and departure. Unlikely, after 3 years but practical for 6 months

In your case, you admitted that the issue existed.

As it was evidenced as your flat mate's rooms, why would he not pick up the entire cleaning bill?

[Zlatan]

Of course dispute it to get the cost down if you think it’s excessive, however I think that £174 is quite reasonable for a deep clean.

When I had to dispute a £550 bill when I left one property about 8 years ago I argued the case using extensive photos of before and after - with help from citizens advice I paid nothing. It was a case of the letting firm using a subsidiary cleaning firm to fiddle tenants. Citizen advice had an open file on the letting agency along with trading standards.

Good luck, obviously you need to pay something because you admit it wasn’t as clean as it should’ve been, if it’s the full amount it’s lesson learnt.

[TsarBomba]

I rented for 10 years and lived in 8 different properties.

Your deposit will be protected.

Go to the Housing Ombudsman Scheme (HOS), which is specifically set up to adjudicate between landlords and tenants in these situations.

Present your evidence and they will also speak with your landlord. It may take a few months, but they will come back with a decision, which is final.

Don’t just pay up.

Edit- my last landlord wanted to take £800 from our £1600 deposit for cleaning, and we successfully argued the house was cleaner and garden tidier than when we moved in, and the landlord didn’t get a penny.

It takes time and a bit of effort, and you need to be forensic in your evidence, but it’s worth it. Unscrupulous landlords are banking on people not being bothered to fight it.

[Loyalclaret]

The cleaning companies are usually owned by the letting companies apparently. Good luck sorting it out.

Anyone have any experience of Fair Flat to replace the deposit, as either landlord or tenant?

[Claretmatt4]

I rented for 10 years and lived in 8 different properties.

Your deposit will be protected.

Go to the Housing Ombudsman Scheme (HOS), which is specifically set up to adjudicate between landlords and tenants in these situations.

Present your evidence and they will also speak with your landlord. It may take a few months, but they will come back with a decision, which is final.

Don’t just pay up.

Edit- my last landlord wanted to take £800 from our £1600 deposit for cleaning, and we successfully argued the house was cleaner and garden tidier than when we moved in, and the landlord didn’t get a penny.

It takes time and a bit of effort, and you need to be forensic in your evidence, but it’s worth it. Unscrupulous landlords are banking on people not being bothered to fight it.

Does the deposit remain with the landlord over this time?

[tim_noone]

Forget the principal of the situation it gets you nowhere...as Long as you get your Bond and deposit back happy days fcuk em!!

[fatboy47]

I let out a number of properties in Somerset via my agent.

To be frank, I simply haven't the time or inclination to be fannying around with chasing punters who haven't left the places as they found them.

The agent has been Instructed to commission a full deep clean Inc carpets and chimney, after every departure and remove the cost from the deposit. I've only ever had one client who wasn't happy with this, he grumbled, but had to whistle for his money.
I think you're on a loser tbh.

[Jakubclaret]

Forget the principal of the situation it gets you nowhere...as Long as you get your Bond and deposit back happy days fcuk em!!

That's it it's just £174 it's not a massive amount of money really it's a problem solved, yes there is a principle & people telling him not to pay up & fight it maybe aren't fully aware of the stress & sh*t involved & then it's time consuming with no guarantees, like me with car parking ticket & speeding fine do it & move on in life.

[DCWat]

I let out a number of properties in Somerset via my agent.

To be frank, I simply haven't the time or inclination to be fannying around with chasing punters who haven't left the places as they found them.

The agent has been Instructed to commission a full deep clean Inc carpets and chimney, after every departure and remove the cost from the deposit. I've only ever had one client who wasn't happy with this, he grumbled, but had to whistle for his money.
I think you're on a loser tbh.

Presumably you state in your contract that the outgoing tenants must use a proportion of their deposit to pay for a deep clean.

I can understand you wanting to do that for the new occupiers, it does t mean that the previous tenant should be paying for it though.

Fair enough if it’s filthy or there is damage.

[UnderSeige]

If it's just £174 it might not be worth bothering about - particularly if this is split between the two of you. If it's the whole, or an excessive part of, the deposit you could persue it through the 'deposit scheme'.

Your landlord can't take unreasonable amounts of money from your deposit. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housi ... ur%20case.

Once they have your deposit, I don't think Landlords like to give it back. That's why the government introduced the protection schemes.

http://www.complaintexpert.co.uk/how-co ... posit.html

[aggi]

Does the deposit remain with the landlord over this time?

It depends on the exact scheme but normally the undisputed element is released and only the disputed part retained. That's how it works with the TDS which is the main scheme.

[aggi]

I let out a number of properties in Somerset via my agent.

To be frank, I simply haven't the time or inclination to be fannying around with chasing punters who haven't left the places as they found them.

The agent has been Instructed to commission a full deep clean Inc carpets and chimney, after every departure and remove the cost from the deposit. I've only ever had one client who wasn't happy with this, he grumbled, but had to whistle for his money.
I think you're on a loser tbh.

If it's in the contract then fine. If it's not then it's only necessary to do what is in the contract and anything over that can be disputed.

[NewClaret]

I let out a number of properties in Somerset via my agent.

To be frank, I simply haven't the time or inclination to be fannying around with chasing punters who haven't left the places as they found them.

The agent has been Instructed to commission a full deep clean Inc carpets and chimney, after every departure and remove the cost from the deposit. I've only ever had one client who wasn't happy with this, he grumbled, but had to whistle for his money.
I think you're on a loser tbh.

That’s Somerset off my AirBnb list then!

[bfccrazy]

We’d do carpet cleaning for end of tenancy properties managed by a BIGGGG local letting firm who would add on their own bit on top of our price when charging the landlords. Usually a few of about £15/20 on top of our very reasonable bill which they justified as “arranging the cleaning” ..... which meant they’d call us and we’d go and pick up the keys and do the work and drop the keys back off.......

Adding on nearly £100 is extortionate though.

[Zlatan]

We’d do carpet cleaning for end of tenancy properties managed by a BIGGGG local letting firm who would add on their own bit on top of our price when charging the landlords. Usually a few of about £15/20 on top of our very reasonable bill which they justified as “arranging the cleaning” ..... which meant they’d call us and we’d go and pick up the keys and do the work and drop the keys back off.......

Adding on nearly £100 is extortionate though.

That’s what bugs me, and it’s still generally unregulated - the adding of admin charges (the £15-20 you mention) over and above the actual service the letting agency is supposed to do. It’s similar to banks charging £100 for a letter (I’m sure that’s been stopped now)

[MACCA]

Depends how much you value you're time.
If you're happy to pay £85, the extra doesnt seem much more to avoid phone calls, time and potential headaches/stress.
I know you dont want to just conceed as it's the principle of it all.

On a side note I'm where's your flat mates hand in all this, surely he can contribute in some way even if you went halves on the cost.
I'd presume youd be quite close having lived together for years.

If you cant get anything from your mate, I'd offer a last £130 ( meet half way ) type offer on your next contact with them, then hailing that I'd just let it go.
Its not like your paying it out of your pocket as such either as theyve got your deposit.

But fully understand your annoyance.
I'd be be making my decision based on if it was worth my time and effort messing around.

[ClaretAndBlue94]

I left my rental property in a cleaner condition that when I arrived. They still charged me £85 for a cleaner to go in. Disputed for a while but eventually gave in and paid.

They also claimed a light bulb wasn't working and invoiced a further £20. They would not let me buy a light bulb and fit it.

I would rather them just have told me at the beginning that a cleaner would come in at the end regardless of the condition of the property and that it will cost me £x amount. I would not have had issue with that !

[SammyBoy]

I let out a number of properties in Somerset via my agent.

To be frank, I simply haven't the time or inclination to be fannying around with chasing punters who haven't left the places as they found them.

The agent has been Instructed to commission a full deep clean Inc carpets and chimney, after every departure and remove the cost from the deposit. I've only ever had one client who wasn't happy with this, he grumbled, but had to whistle for his money.
I think you're on a loser tbh.

In my situation I admit the property didn't look quite "as it was found" but it was basically clean and tidy aside from a stain on the carpet I admit I could've done a better job cleaning. One of my main grievances was we'd lived there for 3 years and the landlord spent not a single penny on it's upkeep, so of course certain aspects of the flats interior weren't as shiny as they'd been years beforehand.

The problem is that most letting agencies have no interest in ensuring the solution to end of tenancy issues is fair to the tenant as well as the landlord. Often times, the landlord and agency will pick up on a legitimate issue, and use it as an excuse to get the whole property spruced up at the tenants expense. When really, the majority of that comes down to fair wear and tear that could've been avoided if the landlord had shown any interest at all during the tenancy. As I said before, none of the things they tried to sting us for had been flagged at the twice a year "'property inspections", but were suddenly a concern as we were leaving.

With us they tried hiring one company to deep clean the flat, and a totally separate company to clean a 20cm x 20cm stain on the carpet, surely one company could handle both jobs? As bfccrazy said, the letting agencies and the cleaning companies are in bed with each other and it's kick back city, none of which is shown on the invoice.

The Tenancy Deposit Scheme is great because at least now if you can provide counter quotes, and argue your case with before/after photos you can get the deductions reduced to something that's reasonable based on the state of the property.

[Hipper]

In order to calculate what it would cost you need to factor in hourly rates, work time plus number of people (man hours), travel time, including collecting and returning the keys, 'on costs' like vehicle, fuel, materials, equipment, insurance, perhaps VAT and of course profit. I would have thought something of the order of £30 per hour might be correct for one person, £45 for two.

Did you say that the work - cleaning two rooms and an oven - would take around four hours? Add in travel, collecting and returning keys making say five hours. £150 for a one man band.

I know, don't employ me.

[claretburns]

It is legal the deposit is paid into a protection service, normally DPS and not with the landlord.

We had a problem when we moved from a house in Todmorden, landlady wanted to take £350 out of the £450 deposit for cleaning and a new oven even we had text messages from her proving that she said the oven was fine but wanted to put a new one in and the house was clean when we left, we disputed the claim and she got £17 in the end for a couple of holes on the wall where the dartboard was, which we agreed to pay.

[Reb]

Most important thing is what it says in your tenancy agreement.
As a landlord I put it in the contract that the property should be professionally cleaned at the end of the tenancy. I advise the tenants to keep the invoice/receipt so that if for any reason the property isn't deemed to be clean enough when the check out inventory is done, then they have the opportunity to go back to the firm they used and say that the job hasn't been done well enough. If they choose to have me arrange the clean then I let them have the choice to be billed directly by the cleaners or for it to be taken from the deposit. I send them the quote from the cleaners before the job is done. If they decline to do any of the above, I have the clean done and then take the amount from the deposit. I have to provide the deposit protection scheme with the paid invoice and proof this is a clause in the tenancy. The deposit protection company has never queried this because it is in tenancy agreement. I should also point out that I manage the properties myself and don't use a letting agent which certainly makes things more transparent.

[Vegas Claret]

I let out a number of properties in Somerset via my agent.

To be frank, I simply haven't the time or inclination to be fannying around with chasing punters who haven't left the places as they found them.

The agent has been Instructed to commission a full deep clean Inc carpets and chimney, after every departure and remove the cost from the deposit. I've only ever had one client who wasn't happy with this, he grumbled, but had to whistle for his money.
I think you're on a loser tbh.

unless you state the cost of that deep clean or specify the company to be used in your contract the agent cannot simply charge whatever the **** they want, they should have given the quote to the OP before acting upon it. I rent out my property in the UK and if my agent did that they would be fired on the spot.

[Vegas Claret]

Most important thing is what it says in your tenancy agreement.
As a landlord I put it in the contract that the property should be professionally cleaned at the end of the tenancy. I advise the tenants to keep the invoice/receipt so that if for any reason the property isn't deemed to be clean enough when the check out inventory is done, then they have the opportunity to go back to the firm they used and say that the job hasn't been done well enough. If they choose to have me arrange the clean then I let them have the choice to be billed directly by the cleaners or for it to be taken from the deposit. I send them the quote from the cleaners before the job is done. If they decline to do any of the above, I have the clean done and then take the amount from the deposit. I have to provide the deposit protection scheme with the paid invoice and proof this is a clause in the tenancy. The deposit protection company has never queried this because it is in tenancy agreement. I should also point out that I manage the properties myself and don't use a letting agent which certainly makes things more transparent.

exactly this

[IanMcL]

Dirty rooms admitted.
Price of essential clean reasonable.

Issue: Culprit not put hand up and accepted personable responsibility.

Money owed but should be paid by flat mate.

[Down_Rover]

Ian you have been stuffed.

Live your life forwards mate

Not life changing sorts of money

[Claretmatt4]

Appreciate all the replies everyone.

Whilst I still think I was in the right to query the amount they wanted to charge, in the end we just paid them in full, purely as I couldn't be bothered with the hassle.

I'm going to whinge about the letting agent on social media to vent my frustration as they have been dodgy to say the least and I'm certain they've skimmed money off there.

In regards to my flatmate, he agreed to cover 2/3 of the cleaning fee. He'd probably have paid the lot if I asked nicely but I'm too nice...

Thanks guys. UTC

[Papabendi]

Of course you did

#timewaster

[boatshed bill]

What do we expect of these modern landlords? They probably do it to every outgoing tennant.

[fatboy47]

What do we expect of these modern landlords? They probably do it to every outgoing tennant.

C'est la vie.

I've invested a lot of my own money into the properties, they're kept in tip top condition and maintained promptly when issues arise. Keeping desirable properties in good areas means there's always high demand when a vacancy arises, ergo the agent has a few tenants to choose from.
I've only ever had one total arseh0le of a tenant, but that ultimately cost me £1000's and I quickly learnt.
From hereon in it's big deposits, strong agents, thorough vetting of punters and watertight contracts.
Thankfully, removals are damned expensive these days, which makes many renters act quickly to avoid the risk of eviction.

[boatshed bill]

C'est la vie.

I've invested a lot of my own money into the properties, they're kept in tip top condition and maintained promptly when issues arise. Keeping desirable properties in good areas means there's always high demand when a vacancy arises, ergo the agent has a few tenants to choose from.
I've only ever had one total arseh0le of a tenant, but that ultimately cost me £1000's and I quickly learnt.
From hereon in it's big deposits, strong agents, thorough vetting of punters and watertight contracts.
Thankfully, removals are damned expensive these days, which makes many renters act quickly to avoid the risk of eviction.

[Papabendi]

I think we should close the thread, as the poster of the original message couldn’t be bothered with the hassle in the end but had no problem enlisting the time of multiple posters off topic on a Burnley fc message board

[KateR]

C'est la vie.

I've invested a lot of my own money into the properties, they're kept in tip top condition and maintained promptly when issues arise. Keeping desirable properties in good areas means there's always high demand when a vacancy arises, ergo the agent has a few tenants to choose from.
I've only ever had one total arseh0le of a tenant, but that ultimately cost me £1000's and I quickly learnt.
From hereon in it's big deposits, strong agents, thorough vetting of punters and watertight contracts.
Thankfully, removals are damned expensive these days, which makes many renters act quickly to avoid the risk of eviction.

we have also been landlords as well as renting, had one set of tenants, two guys that left the place in a state that needed a lot of work doing some at our costs in order to have it ready for the next letting, we also had an agent taking the money and advising us the tenant had not paid! That went on for 3 months, turned out he had met a Swedish girl who was high maintenance, much higher than he could afford and consequently he swindled numerous landlords and was jetting off here there and everywhere with her. He fled to Sweden to avoid arrest but of course she dumped him when the money wasn't forthcoming and he returned, arrested, plead guilty in court and ordered to pay back a pittance to those he had stole from, Usual happened he paid for a couple of months then never heard from, paying legal fees to chase him was becoming more than we would ever recover, hubby was all about the principle of it but we learned, moved on, bigger reputable firm engaged. That resulted in higher deposits and much better vetting of tenants and never a problem after that but definitely a headache.

[MRG]

I think we should close the thread, as the poster of the original message couldn’t be bothered with the hassle in the end but had no problem enlisting the time of multiple posters off topic on a Burnley fc message board

Would you say this has annoyed you?