Page 2 of 3
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:52 pm
by ClaretLoup
"It is an elite environment where Academy. Players are provided with additional access to coaching and the potential of full time education
from U12. Category 1 Academies can recruit nationally from U14 provided the Academy Player is guaranteed access to a full time education programme."
Just lifted this from the EFl web site, so does that mean Burnley can now recruit from a wider range of young talent?
Also what is the logic of this move, does it mean the existing players the club have got will become better because they are playing against better players or will they be able to recruit better players from elsewhere and at a younger age than now to attain a potential rise in standards?
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:58 pm
by superdimitri
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:14 pm
This work started when Jon Pepper took over as academy manager in 2016. Eddie Howe appointed Jason Blake as academy manager, Blake all but lost us category 3 status which would have seen the academy shut down altogether. The work started by Eddie Howe is now firmly, and mercifully, behind us.
Tony, I'm pretty sure he was just fishing
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:11 pm
by Spijed
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:39 pm
Liverpool are in the top division
I'm amazed that Man U. aren't with their history of bringing through young players.
You'd have thought they would be head and shoulders above the vast majority of teams in terms of youth set-up
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:24 pm
by Blackrod
No negatives to this news. Can only help the club.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:35 pm
by Clarets4me
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:42 pm
We were doing so well, under the financial circumstances, when Vince and then Dobbo were running things but with them gone, then Pash gone, then Andy Farrell gone, I saw the youth team end the 2015/16 season with nine successive defeats against Bury, Tranmere, Shrewsbury, Carlisle, Accrington, Walsall, Preston, Wrexham, and Port Vale. We conceded three or more in all but one of those games. I know it is not a results business at that level, that it is about player development but it was going nowhere, and nowhere fast.
Things changed during the following season. Jon Pepper got the place organised, the under-18s had a coach who knew was he was doing again in Michael Duff and then in the following season we got the games programme for the under-23s. I've seen us get better and better at both levels over the last three years. We are now taking a leap into another level higher and it could be very tough for us initially, but what progress we are making. Brilliant.
Like most others on here, I've never met you Tony, but you strike me as tolerant of other people's views, willing to see another person's opinion and a defender of their right to say it. The fact that you've made your view's clear on Jason Blake tells me all I need to know about him ...
Edit: I ran in to Pat McKiernan a few weeks ago, he's back living in the area after spending some time in London, for personal reasons. Good to see him in fine form ...
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:48 pm
by dandeclaret
Spijed wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:11 pm
I'm amazed that Man U. aren't with their history of bringing through young players.
You'd have thought they would be head and shoulders above the vast majority of teams in terms of youth set-up
League tables are done on games won...... not players produced........ can be quite telling the difference.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:16 pm
by GodIsADeeJay81
Well done to all involved in this.
I assume Rovers are in the upper section of Cat 1 academies?
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:19 pm
by Colburn_Claret
Just been on club web site and they mentioned Steve Stone.
Is he still on gardening leave , or has everyone kissed and made up?
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:30 pm
by boatshed bill
Do Man Utd win this every season?
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:37 pm
by ClaretTony
Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:19 pm
Just been on club web site and they mentioned Steve Stone.
Is he still on gardening leave , or has everyone kissed and made up?
Been back for some time - his role was set at managing the players out on loan
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:49 pm
by randomclaret2
Stone has been visible on a few of the training videos the club have released recently.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:05 pm
by ClaretTony
randomclaret2 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:49 pm
Stone has been visible on a few of the training videos the club have released recently.
he also got himself a TV appearance ahead of the Watford game. He could be seen walking across when the Watford players were coming into the ground from the temporary dressing room.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:21 pm
by Dyched
dandeclaret wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:48 pm
League tables are done on games won...... not players produced........ can be quite telling the difference.
Would be interesting to see the comparison between the two.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:00 pm
by CrosspoolClarets
Great news. Getting that investment in early into the academy was a great decision, many others in the adult setup haven’t been, so hats off where it is deserved. Time to make up for that Sherpa Van final defeat (I’m joking, it’s premature and even if it wasn’t I don’t agree with these young sides entering that competition).
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:39 pm
by jdrobbo
Wonderful news.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:04 am
by IanMcL
well done BFC.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:53 am
by claretandy
How are Rovers still managing to run a top-tier, cat 1 club while floundering in the Championship ?
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:24 am
by Father Jack
I have another Rovers academy question - how productive has their academy been in bringing players through in the last 5 year? I don’t keep a close eye on them but can’t think of any hot prospects being sold for big fees since Phil Jones (whose fee alone has probably paid the academy costs for about this time period).
Also appreciate how well their academy runs doesn’t detract from the achievement of getting our own Cat 1 academy in place.
Really hope we see the talent coming through in the future. We need our young players getting championship game time on loan. That feels like the barometer of progress to where we currently are. Like Harvey Barnes and Ben White have done / are doing for Leicester and BHA.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:18 am
by GodIsADeeJay81
claretandy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:53 am
How are Rovers still managing to run a top-tier, cat 1 club while floundering in the Championship ?
The owners are funding it and its not included in FFP, or something like that.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:29 am
by Commy
I have a question. If there are 12 teams in each league and no relegation from the 2nd division, how do they squeeze us in?
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:29 am
by Longsidelenny1882
Jimmy Dunn Dwight McNeil jay rod Aiden O’Neill came to the club when we were cat 3 club if you are good enough you’ve a chance to make it utc
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:37 am
by ClaretTony
claretandy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:53 am
How are Rovers still managing to run a top-tier, cat 1 club while floundering in the Championship ?
Because they have benefactors who will fund it for them
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:38 am
by ClaretTony
Commy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:29 am
I have a question. If there are 12 teams in each league and no relegation from the 2nd division, how do they squeeze us in?
Currently 12 teams per league. Someone could drop out if they opt to stop running a cat 1 academy. Teams have pulled out before - Bolton & Huddersfield did.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:40 am
by Spijed
Crystal Palace have been granted category 1 status.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:21 pm
by DCWat
For presumably a non cat-1 side, in the past. How did Palace keep the likes of Zaha and Bissaka?
I thought it was pretty easy for cat-1 clubs to pilfer talent from those with a lower category status.
If we can start to see a few more returns from the investment, on the pitch and through sales, it’ll be well worth it.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:30 pm
by ClaretTony
Spijed wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:40 am
Crystal Palace have been granted category 1 status.
There were three clubs applied as I know of. They were us Palace and Leeds. I checked yesterday afternoon after we announced but there was nothing then on the Leeds & Palace websites nor anything from the Premier League.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:33 pm
by Longsidelenny1882
Like I have said previously doesn’t matter what cat you are it’s about finding lads who. Can play utc
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:33 pm
by Top Claret
To keep our Cat 1 status it is imperative that we stay in the Premier league, unlike Rovers we don't have benefactors.
Can't see how our present board will be able to finance this Cat 1 set up without an investor
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:39 pm
by GodIsADeeJay81
Top Claret wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:33 pm
To keep our Cat 1 status it is imperative that we stay in the Premier league, unlike Rovers we don't have benefactors.
Can't see how our present board will be able to finance this Cat 1 set up without an investor
It's only a few million a year and I'm sure I read on here that the money has been ring fenced already
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:41 pm
by GodIsADeeJay81
DCWat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:21 pm
For presumably a non cat-1 side, in the past. How did Palace keep the likes of Zaha and Bissaka?
I thought it was pretty easy for cat-1 clubs to pilfer talent from those with a lower category status.
If we can start to see a few more returns from the investment, on the pitch and through sales, it’ll be well worth it.
Probably stayed because they were happy there, set up suited them etc, Palace are a PL club, or at worst in the championship etc
With our now updated /modern set up we should find it easier to get and keep players.
Especially with Dwight showing that if you're good enough you'll play in the first team.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:43 pm
by DCWat
Top Claret wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:33 pm
To keep our Cat 1 status it is imperative that we stay in the Premier league, unlike Rovers we don't have benefactors.
Can't see how our present board will be able to finance this Cat 1 set up without an investor
Presumably, the aim will be for it to be self sufficient through sales. I’d be interested to know what the predicted timeframe for that may be.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:45 pm
by GodIsADeeJay81
DCWat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:43 pm
Presumably, the aim will be for it to be self sufficient through sales. I’d be interested to know what the predicted timeframe for that may be.
Hopefully the club are more patient than some people on here who wanted first team ready players last week.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:47 pm
by Chester Perry
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:39 pm
It's only a few million a year and I'm sure I read on here that the money has been ring fenced already
- about £5m if done properly for us I expect - that appears to be the threshold - there are a lot of staff close to 100 were employed in that area back in December
- between £10m - £20m for the big six where clubs like Man City put kids through private school (St Bede's) too
The money we had put on one side has probably been chewed up by the pause - it will be interesting to see just how much exactly in the next few sets of Accounts - yet some fans (and all the media) want Sean to have even more money to spend (when substantially less is coming in.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:06 pm
by Spijed
Aside from Lewis Richardson, are there any other players that we currently have who are seen as very good prospects going forward?
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:10 pm
by DCWat
Spijed wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:06 pm
Aside from Lewis Richardson, are there any other players that we currently have who are seen as very good prospects going forward?
Hopefully we’ve some prospects that are less offensively minded, too
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:12 pm
by Top Claret
It sounds as though we need a minimum of 5 million to finance this a season.
I can't see us being able to afford to give this the attention it needs to get the viable returns. It could take years for us to find another Dwight Yorke to pay back the huge investment, by then we could be back in the championship.
Without a new financial backer this Cat 1 status is pie in the sky and way out of our league, we can't compete with the big boys on beer money
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:18 pm
by ClaretTony
Top Claret wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:12 pm
It sounds as though we need a minimum of 5 million to finance this a season.
I can't see us being able to afford to give this the attention it needs to get the viable returns. It could take years for us to find another Dwight Yorke to pay back the huge investment, by then we could be back in the championship.
Without a new financial backer this Cat 1 status is pie in the sky and way out of our league, we can't compete with the big boys on beer money
Do you honestly think we’d have gone through this long process to get cat 1 status if it were pie in the Sky? I doubt we will have to change anything in any case, we’ve been running out cat 2 academy in a cat 1 ready state in preparation.
It’s not pie in the sky, it’s a massive step up for us in getting to where we want to be. The cost of it is more than within our scope.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:20 pm
by DCWat
Top Claret wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:12 pm
It sounds as though we need a minimum of 5 million to finance this a season.
I can't see us being able to afford to give this the attention it needs to get the viable returns. It could take years for us to find another Dwight Yorke to pay back the huge investment, by then we could be back in the championship.
Without a new financial backer this Cat 1 status is pie in the sky and way out of our league, we can't compete with the big boys on beer money
I’d be happy if we found the first Dwight Yorke, never mind the next one!
I’m not convinced it’s just about big sales, if we can get players through that may not be quite up to our current level, there is money to be made through sales to lower level clubs.
It’s a huge commitment so let’s hope it becomes a worthwhile one.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:24 pm
by ClaretTony
DCWat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:20 pm
I’d be happy if we found the first Dwight Yorke, never mind the next one!
I’m not convinced it’s just about big sales, if we can get players through that may not be quite up to our current level, there is money to be made through sales to lower level clubs.
It’s a huge commitment so let’s hope it becomes a worthwhile one.
I know things have changed this season but Chelsea have funded their academy for years with player sales. Having players to sell on is also very much a part of it.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:25 pm
by DCWat
Their approach has looked like the football version of puppy farming
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:28 pm
by Tribesmen
One question say in the last 10 years how many players have come through the academy for Chelsea
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:29 pm
by ClaretTony
Tribesmen wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:28 pm
One question say in the last 10 years how many players have come through the academy for Chelsea
Through to the first team? Probably, mainly those this season. But they’ve sold a few in that time.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:32 pm
by DCWat
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:37 pm
by Chester Perry
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:24 pm
I know things have changed this season but Chelsea have funded their academy for years with player sales. Having players to sell on is also very much a part of it.
Man City are close to reaching £200m in Academy sales in the last 6 or 7 years and in Foden they have probably saved around £60m in transfer fees already.
The thing to remember about Academies is not just their sales but also the cost of recruitment and I am not just talking about EPPP rates. The big 6 clubs spend an awful lot on recruitment too - some recruits can cost millions. Even we will be paying for recruits and that has to be part of the overall budget.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:49 pm
by Tribesmen
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:29 pm
Through to the first team? Probably, mainly those this season. But they’ve sold a few in that time.
Now could be wrong but i think i read somewhere that Jody Morris was the last player to play in the first team who started off in the Academy , again that maybe years old as a couple have this season .
I would say out of the top clubs Arsenal and Man Utd have the best record , hummm maybe Southampton also .
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:53 pm
by ClaretTony
Chester Perry wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:37 pm
Man City are close to reaching £200m in Academy sales in the last 6 or 7 years and in Foden they have probably saved around £60m in transfer fees already.
The thing to remember about Academies is not just their sales but also the cost of recruitment and I am not just talking about EPPP rates. The big 6 clubs spend an awful lot on recruitment too - some recruits can cost millions. Even we will be paying for recruits and that has to be part of the overall budget.
If you sell a player who has come through your academy for £10 million say, that's £10 million against the running costs of your academy. That's easy to quantify. If you have a player come through the academy into the first team, it can't be quantified, but there is a value every single time he plays in the first team. So Dwight has now played over 50 Premier League games and he was, in effect, a free transfer signing from the academy. So, if we were to sell him now for £30 million (and I'm no valuing him here), the benefits are not just £30 million but £30 million plus the value of those 50 games.
So you have sales and appearances as, in effect, income but also the costs of bringing players in to the academy as we did back in 2015 with players like Dan Agyei, Josh Ginnelly etc.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:54 pm
by DCWat
Chalobah, Abraham to name a couple
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:54 pm
by Colburn_Claret
Top Claret wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:12 pm
It sounds as though we need a minimum of 5 million to finance this a season.
I can't see us being able to afford to give this the attention it needs to get the viable returns. It could take years for us to find another Dwight Yorke to pay back the huge investment, by then we could be back in the championship.
Without a new financial backer this Cat 1 status is pie in the sky and way out of our league, we can't compete with the big boys on beer money
IF we sold Dwight for 50 million it would pay for the academy for the next 10 years.....
Not that we want to sell him of course.
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:58 pm
by ClaretTony
Tribesmen wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:49 pm
Now could be wrong but i think i read somewhere that Jody Morris was the last player to play in the first team who started off in the Academy , again that maybe years old as a couple have this season .
I would say out of the top clubs Arsenal and Man Utd have the best record , hummm maybe Southampton also .
This season they've used the following in the first team
Tammy Abraham
Faustino Anjurin
Armando Broja
Billy Gilmour
Callum Hudson-Odoi
Reece James
Tariq Lamptey (since sold to Brighton)
Ruben Loftus-Cheek
Mason Mount
Fikayo Tomori
Amazing what a transfer ban does to a club
Re: Academy Granted Category 1 ststus
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:06 pm
by dandeclaret
Tribesmen wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:49 pm
Now could be wrong but i think i read somewhere that Jody Morris was the last player to play in the first team who started off in the Academy , again that maybe years old as a couple have this season .
I would say out of the top clubs Arsenal and Man Utd have the best record , hummm maybe Southampton also .
Can’t see the Jody Morris Piece being true. Chalobah, Patrick Van Aanholt, Ryan Bertrand, Josh McEXhran, Nathan Ake, for example spring to mind.