Burnley - No Gibson recall

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taio
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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by taio » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:47 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:20 am
Do you not think there was a mistake?

Maybe just call it Burnley's nicest gesture to another football club and player we have ever done?

It's certainly our most costliest.
I thought he was a very good signing at the time. Hasn't worked out though which happens from time to time at every single football club.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Quickenthetempo » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:52 am

TVC15 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:42 am
Did you think it was a mistake at the time we signed him ?
Did anyone ?

You cannot describe something as a mistake because of unforeseen circumstances that happened afterwards. Every signing carries an element of risk and I did not hear of anyone calling this out as a risky signing.
If we had signed Jack Wiltshire there would have been a number of people saying at the time that this was a mistake based on his previous fitness record and dubious drinking and smoking habits - anybody who predicted that was a mistake for West Ham to do this has been proven right.
Nobody as far as I could see predicted that for Gibson.
That's some weird logic right there.

It can't be a mistake because it seemed a decent deal?

We've judging now with facts and evidence, which is better than going off your predictions. Isn't it?

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:54 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:20 am
Do you not think there was a mistake?

Maybe just call it Burnley's nicest gesture to another football club and player we have ever done?

It's certainly our most costliest.
Not a mistake at all. We needed another central defender, we had been one short for year, and I believed we were getting a very good player at a very good price.

No one could have known he would need surgery twice in his first six months here and then when he was fit the team would go on such a remarkable run.

And certainly no one could have envisaged what has happened to bring about this situation. It can happen, and not just in football.

It seems all you want to do is point the finger at our club on this, and in particular the manager. I believe you are so off track with that.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by jojomk1 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:57 am

ClaretTony wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:35 am
I’m saying that Mee’s deal was agreed, and he was never stalling, before we started talks with Gibson. We moved for Gibson only after the Mawson deal fell through.
BBC Sport announced the Gibson signing on 5th August after contract talks that must have took some time

BBC Sport announced Ben Mee has signed new contract on 8th August

When exactly was Mee's deal agreed if the club did not decide to announce until then

Just asking

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:59 am

jojomk1 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:57 am
BBC Sport announced the Gibson signing on 5th August after contract talks that must have took some time

BBC Sport announced Ben Mee has signed new contract on 8th August

When exactly was Mee's deal agreed if the club did not decide to announce until then

Just asking
Deal had been agreed previously. That’s a fact. They announced it after the Gibson deal, that’s also a fact. Ben Mee was never stalling, that’s also a fact.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Swizzlestick » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:00 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:52 am
That's some weird logic right there.

It can't be a mistake because it seemed a decent deal?

We've judging now with facts and evidence, which is better than going off your predictions. Isn't it?
The point is, there was nothing in Gibson's track record that suggested this was a risky signing. He'd been professional on and off the pitch. General consensus was we'd purchased one of the top defenders in the league for a reasonable fee. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If after we'd signed Barton, he ****** off back to an old club and generally shown the levels of unprofessionalism on display here, then yes, you can point the finger and say we took too much of a risk on a player with his chequered track record.

This is just an unfortunate set of circumstances, and apportioning blame is a fool's errand. I think Dyche has plenty of credit in the bank when it comes to getting value for money from players.
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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:13 pm

Swizzlestick wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:00 pm
This is just an unfortunate set of circumstances, and apportioning blame is a fool's errand. I think Dyche has plenty of credit in the bank when it comes to getting value for money from players.
And Quickenthetempo is very much on a fool's errand and making some very foolish comments.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by MACCA » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:16 pm

jojomk1 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:57 am
When exactly was Mee's deal agreed if the club did not decide to announce until then

Just asking
Announcing that Mee had signed a new deal before Gibson had signed may have jeopardised the deal.

Maybe the club wanted to paint the picture Gibson would be in line for a starting role with the pending departure of the current left sided CB.
Seems plausible.

Or maybe you are right, and Mee had a change of heart whilst the Gibson negotiations were going on/ deal done, and Burnley had then already broken their record on someone never likely to play.
Also plausible.

1 things for sure, Burnley dont throw around 15m fees, 40k a week wages, and 4 or 5 year contracts willy nilly.
Especially 2 years ago and for a back up player unlikely to be starting regularly.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by TVC15 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:20 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:52 am
That's some weird logic right there.

It can't be a mistake because it seemed a decent deal?

We've judging now with facts and evidence, which is better than going off your predictions. Isn't it?
The weird logic is calling something a mistake that not even you or anybody else thought was a mistake when we signed him.
The fact that you are saying that money is being withheld to Dyche because of the Gibson signing is suggesting that SD is being blamed for making a “mistake”. That would seem unreasonable since Garlick, and everyone else at the time agreed it was a good signing.
Just because something turns out to be a mistake does not mean it was a mistake at the time nor someone should be blamed.

I have seen no evidence at all that SD is being blamed by MG btw - as usual some fans are adding 2 + 2 and getting 15 million !

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:36 pm

If I remember we were linked with him for most of the summer weren’t we and then went back in when other targets didn’t come off?
With our track record we’d definitely have done some diligence into his attitude.
Plus he was here almost 18 months before any problems seemed to crop up so it’s not like he’s come in and sulked straight away.

I’m not sure what’s happened other than the rumours but it must be something serious as neither side seems willing to back down despite both sides being in need.

Shame how it’s unfolded, I think we got ourselves a good player, it’s just not worked out.
Last edited by Bordeauxclaret on Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Winstonswhite » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:36 pm

The more I look at it I think Gibson has been told over the summer he would either play or promised to be loaned out in January.

As neither of these materialised he kicked off. Dyche sent him away and now won’t back down as we’re safe anyway.

These things happen all the time at other clubs. Just a shame it’s with our record signing.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Quickenthetempo » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:37 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:13 pm
And Quickenthetempo is very much on a fool's errand and making some very foolish comments.
Or maybe just a fan on a supporters messageboard discussing things about Burnley.

Ok so nobody on here thinks it was a mistake.

Who thinks it was a success?

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Woodleyclaret » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:39 pm

Never needed we had Longy and Dunne as cover.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Quickenthetempo » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:40 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:20 pm
The weird logic is calling something a mistake that not even you or anybody else thought was a mistake when we signed him.
The fact that you are saying that money is being withheld to Dyche because of the Gibson signing is suggesting that SD is being blamed for making a “mistake”. That would seem unreasonable since Garlick, and everyone else at the time agreed it was a good signing.
Just because something turns out to be a mistake does not mean it was a mistake at the time nor someone should be blamed.

I have seen no evidence at all that SD is being blamed by MG btw - as usual some fans are adding 2 + 2 and getting 15 million !
There is no such thing as a mistake at the time of a signing as all signings should be given a chance.

You should only judge after a significant time period.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by tiger76 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:42 pm

Swizzlestick wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:00 pm
The point is, there was nothing in Gibson's track record that suggested this was a risky signing. He'd been professional on and off the pitch. General consensus was we'd purchased one of the top defenders in the league for a reasonable fee. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If after we'd signed Barton, he ****** off back to an old club and generally shown the levels of unprofessionalism on display here, then yes, you can point the finger and say we took too much of a risk on a player with his chequered track record.

This is just an unfortunate set of circumstances, and apportioning blame is a fool's errand. I think Dyche has plenty of credit in the bank when it comes to getting value for money from players.
All signings have an element of risk, but on the face of it, Gibson seemed a decent buy, arguably steep price wise, but that's the market these days.

But on balance Sean's got a lot more incomings right than not, hence why we're still a PL club.

How was he to know Gibson would throw his toys out of the pram, and behave like a spoilt brat.

All we can do now is ship him out and get what we can, and save on his lavish wages, we're not the 1st club to import a bad egg, and we won't be the last.

But as i'm sure SD would agree, you can't make a good omelette with a bad egg.

Seems that people have to find fault with the club somewhere, and as they can't moan about our results, then they'll find anything to vent their complaints about.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:43 pm

Blackrod wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:55 am
No offence taken. Calm the ‘ f ‘ down.

Point 1 I stated some sort of better explanation wouldn’t go amiss due to it being our most expensive signing and highlighted that fans have put a lot of money into the club. I remember the begging bowls coming out for David Reeves but now the tables are turned it doesn’t matter what fans think. The club is struggling to get paltry sums if money out to these same fans at the moment. I accept others have a different view but I don t like things swept under the carpet.
Point 2 Yes
Point 3 Refer back to point 1
They're keeping it in house though, that's the most important part.

I always find it amusing when other clubs have things splashed all over the media when they've got issues.

Gibson is one of our biggest problems and there hasn't been a peep from either side which shows a good degree of professionalism on both sides.
If we resorted to blabbing all the details we would be shown in a poor light

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by BOYSIE31 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:45 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:07 am
What a load of nonsense. Where was the mistake? How could anyone have foreseen any issues that might surface 18 months later?

And the guesswork is even more nonsensical.
I think if a player who we spent a lot of money on never gets a chance or a run out (besides injuries) is going to ask questions and fall out.

It happens at every club its just none get to go back and train with their old team.

Dyche must not be as good as we all thought with man management

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by TVC15 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:46 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:40 pm
There is no such thing as a mistake at the time of a signing as all signings should be given a chance.

You should only judge after a significant time period.
There is however some signings which are more likely to end up as failures than others and signing Gibson was not one of these.
You are looking for blame when there isn’t any.
Are you saying that SD is to blame for this signing not working out and this is why MG is now restricting his transfer spend. Because you seem to be and there is zero evidence or even logic that this is the case given MG was also happy to make this signing and has never once criticised the signing or pointed a finger at anyone.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Jakubs Tash » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:47 pm

Woodleyclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:39 pm
Never needed we had Longy and Dunne as cover.
**Shudder**

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:49 pm

The Telegraph has an article today on it

Curious case of Ben Gibson and Burnley - from England squad and £15m transfer to outcast
MIKE MCGRATH JULY 06, 2020

The Sliding Doors moment for Ben Gibson came three years ago when Leicester showed interest in him as a left-sided centre-back who had broken into the England squad under Gareth Southgate.

At the moment, he is registered to Burnley’s 25-man Premier League squad but even with fears Ben Mee will miss the rest of the season with a thigh injury, Gibson is nowhere near Sean Dyche’s first team. Since January he has spent most of his time training at his former club Middlesbrough to keep fit.

It has been a dramatic, puzzling descent for a player to whom Southgate turned first when looking for a young centre-back as he started shaping his squad for the World Cup in Russia. Gibson was called up for the qualifier against Lithuania when Chris Smalling was injured, then kept his place for the summer matches one year ahead of the tournament.

During that summer, prior to the 2017-18 season, Leicester had an inquiry for Gibson turned down. They were looking for a centre-back as Robert Huth had sustained a long-term injury from which he would eventually retire.

Boro, who had been relegated back into the Championship, were determined to keep Gibson, so Leicester looked at picking off a different left-sided centre-back who had just gone down from the Premier League: Harry Maguire.

By the start of the next campaign, Maguire had replaced Gibson in Southgate’s squad for qualifiers against Malta and Slovakia, then claimed national hero status when he returned from Russia the following year.

Middlesbrough had also turned away interest from West Brom, who had just finished 10th and were willing to pay about £20 million for Gibson. But it was not until the following year, in 2018, that he was able to move when a deal with Burnley was struck for him to become their £15m joint-record signing.

According to sources, he took a pay-cut to join Dyche’s team, such was his determination to be a Premier League player again. The problem was Mee and James Tarkowski had established themselves as Dyche's first choice.

Burnley have not commented on what they call a private matter, but it is thought that Gibson had disagreements with staff and was frustrated at being able to contribute only 63 minutes of Premier League football during his time at Turf Moor. In January this year, he was given permission to train with Boro.

"Not everyone can play, we have and have had good centre-halves and he is one," Dyche said at the time. "He couldn’t find his way into the team and frustration builds off the back of that. It is just a situation where players want one thing and that doesn’t always work."

He is no longer training at Boro following the departure of Jonathan Woodgate as manager but there is little chance of him stepping in for Mee at Burnley this season. Dyche went with four youngsters and a player who had previously been on loan at Fleetwood Town on his bench against Sheffield United at the weekend.

There was tentative interest from Watford in a loan last January but there was little in it for Burnley, with wages not fully covered, no fee and the obligation-to-buy only after a number of games. It is likely he will head out on loan next season but with two years left on his current contract, his Burnley career looks virtually over.
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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by ksrclaret » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:53 pm

His signing has quite clearly and demonstrably been a failure.

If people want to ask questions about why that is the case they are entitled to. This is a message board about Burnley FC.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Blackrod » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:54 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:43 pm
They're keeping it in house though, that's the most important part.

I always find it amusing when other clubs have things splashed all over the media when they've got issues.

Gibson is one of our biggest problems and there hasn't been a peep from either side which shows a good degree of professionalism on both sides.
If we resorted to blabbing all the details we would be shown in a poor light
I agree that the club have acted well in the past when we had the Drinkwater issue, when Barton resigned after the Rangers issue and the gambling long issue along with the
Gray issues. None of the these issues needed any more discussion.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by DCWat » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:08 pm

It’s a shame some sort of resolution can’t be found - it’s taken a long time (perhaps too long, from Gibson’s perspective) for a real opportunity to arise.

Had he been fit and ready to go, he may we’ll have been able to force his way into the reckoning for next season, over these last half dozen games.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:14 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:37 pm
Or maybe just a fan on a supporters messageboard discussing things about Burnley.

Ok so nobody on here thinks it was a mistake.

Who thinks it was a success?
It clearly hasn’t been a success. Only a fool would suggest it was. But some of your comments on this thread have almost been from the world of fantasy. Shame you get hung up on one player misbehaving while the club is announcing something like getting cat 1.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by summitclaret » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:15 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:35 am
I’m saying that Mee’s deal was agreed, and he was never stalling, before we started talks with Gibson. We moved for Gibson only after the Mawson deal fell through.
That's new info I think. If Mee was always staying then signing Gibson was not a good idea. I thought it was at the time because we were desperate for another cb, having risked it for too long. However,
If we knew Ben was staying, we should have been signing a right-footed cb to cover for Tarks, who was obviously the most likely of the 2 to leave, and still is.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:29 pm

summitclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:15 pm
That's new info I think. If Mee was always staying then signing Gibson was not a good idea. I thought it was at the time because we were desperate for another cb, having risked it for too long. However,
If we knew Ben was staying, we should have been signing a right-footed cb to cover for Tarks, who was obviously the most likely of the 2 to leave, and still is.
It's not new info at all, it's just that people choose to have their own agendas - but why was signing a central defender not a good idea when we were one short? As for right-footed, we had two right footed central defenders and one left footed so Gibson fit the bill perfectly. I'll remain convinced that he looked, at the time, to be a very good signing. I thought he was possibly a better option than Mawson who had just turned us down.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by MACCA » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:32 pm

DCWat wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:08 pm
It’s a shame some sort of resolution can’t be found - it’s taken a long time (perhaps too long, from Gibson’s perspective) for a real opportunity to arise.

Had he been fit and ready to go, he may we’ll have been able to force his way into the reckoning for next season, over these last half dozen games.
I know I'm stating obvious things here, but Ben Mee is club captain, you'd be hard pressed to find a manager that permanently drops his club captain. It never ends well that move.

Ben Gibsons problem is that Ben Mee is an undroppable member of Burnleys first team, and with Tarky arguably one if the countries better defenders, Gibson was only ever going to play the odd game unless one got a very lengthy Injury.

I would have loved to have seen a fully Dyched Ben Gibson, a ball playing centre half probably earning England caps.

Hey ho, it's just one of those things

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by summitclaret » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:40 pm

Well it is new to me and I suspect to most on here. We tried to sign a right footer in Mawson. The only agenda I have had for years is the unnecessary risks we have taken in back up in key positions Those bring a striker when we got promoted (we had 2 until Barnes signed in the January), cm when we went down and again in cm after we finished 7th and just about stayed up.

Other than that I have always supported the Board, especially atm.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Giftonsnoidea » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:01 pm

Might be time for Dyche to be the bigger man and rustle him up a super tasty omelette and get him back in the team

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Wokingclaret » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:11 pm


ecc
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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by ecc » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:52 pm

I've no idea what's gone on but what I do know is - and I don't think I was alone - I was very worried when we just had Ben and Tarky as CB options with, and all due respect to him, Kevin Long as back-up. We needed a better third CB and preferably a younger one. We were going into a tougher season with the EL and we needed cover. Injuries can happen at any time and who, let's be honest, would have bet on Ben and Tarky both being fit during Gibson's first 18 months at TM?

But fortunately they were (fit) virtually all the time.

You can understand Gibson wanting to play - we'd be unhappy otherwise - and comprehend SD needing him in case. It's worked out badly because SD sticks with Ben and Tarky and won't change and can we blame him?

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Mala591 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:22 pm

If a player is 'really unhappy' at a club then why don't they just put in a transfer request? Surely it is within their 'human rights' to do so.

NO employment contract is more important than the 'health and wellbeing' of an individual.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by MACCA » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:39 pm

Mala591 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:22 pm
If a player is 'really unhappy' at a club then why don't they just put in a transfer request? Surely it is within their 'human rights' to do so.

NO employment contract is more important than the 'health and wellbeing' of an individual.

The transfer window is closed, and when Mr Dyche says " he will assess the situation at the end of the season" probably means regards who he will be sold to.

I very much doubt Ben Gibson will play for Burnley again, however stranger things have happened.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Giftonsnoidea » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:44 pm

Can’t really expect an England international to be happy sitting on the bench for two years like a yts apprentice, Vydra has been unbelievably patient too and even he was starting to moan in the press. Would be better off integrating and rotating players in cup games so there not completely out of touch with the squad and feel valued and a part of things.

Get him back onside by being nice to him, can’t hurt in the long run, sounds like an ego thing has gone wrong somewhere.

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Re: Burnley - No Gibson recall

Post by Longsider » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:11 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:09 pm
What is unbelievable is your suggestion that chairman and manager are at loggerheads over it - it's happened, it happens at other clubs and the chairman fully supported the decision.
What the heck has he done? Having it away with someone's other half?
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