5 black managers out of 91

[Somethingfishy]

I think the OP makes a valid point. The point is about fair representation. What is fair representation though? Is it a 50/50 split in the number of white/black managers? If so then that isn't actually a fair representation because the population isn't at that ratio. The number of black managers per se should not be an issue if it is at the current level.
More an issue is why when the proportion of black players is so high that more don't get into coaching and management. Do they not want to? Are thay actually not given the same chances?

I saw a tweet the other day about percentages of players in US sports. It showed that black players were the larger percentage in NFL, NBA but it was coming from the angle of the percentage of sports journalists on that sport. They were 80% white. It was a strange argument i thought and precisely showed the flawed arguments at the moment with race equality. If 80% are white then presumably 20% are BAME. 13% of the US is black. Actually over-represented. Black people are better at those sports and white people are better journalists..or is not as simple as that?

All this is just numbers though. We can look too deep into them. The overriding point is that colour of skin should be irrelevant. If you are good enough then the colour of skin shouldn't matter. That is certainly how i think and i realise there are some that don't but finding these people and organisations and putting a stop to it is a difficult issue and it isn't to be found in simple stats.

[Gordaleman]

Paul Ince has argued for years he has been overlooked for a number of roles due to the colour of his skin.

Have you ever seen Paul Ince smile? Who'd want to work with that whinging, moaning cretin?

[mdd2]

It’d be more interesting if they actually did.

It was intended to be a pejorative statement, sorry if I did not put it more clearly.

[cricketfieldclarets]

I think the OP makes a valid point. The point is about fair representation. What is fair representation though? Is it a 50/50 split in the number of white/black managers? If so then that isn't actually a fair representation because the population isn't at that ratio. The number of black managers per se should not be an issue if it is at the current level.
More an issue is why when the proportion of black players is so high that more don't get into coaching and management. Do they not want to? Are thay actually not given the same chances?

I saw a tweet the other day about percentages of players in US sports. It showed that black players were the larger percentage in NFL, NBA but it was coming from the angle of the percentage of sports journalists on that sport. They were 80% white. It was a strange argument i thought and precisely showed the flawed arguments at the moment with race equality. If 80% are white then presumably 20% are BAME. 13% of the US is black. Actually over-represented. Black people are better at those sports and white people are better journalists..or is not as simple as that?

All this is just numbers though. We can look too deep into them. The overriding point is that colour of skin should be irrelevant. If you are good enough then the colour of skin shouldn't matter. That is certainly how i think and i realise there are some that don't but finding these people and organisations and putting a stop to it is a difficult issue and it isn't to be found in simple stats.

You should be embarrassed by that view. Well in the eyes of some at least.

FWIW you are spot in (IMO). 99% of us dont actually care what race, religion, colour someone is. We just want the best people for the jobs.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I imagine Paul Ince would be delighted if he didn't get a job as a manager due to his colour rather than his ability.

[gandhisflipflop]

Anyone who thinks that the OP should be embarrassed at that viewpoint is in my opinion part of the problem. It is a very well balanced OP and makes a valid point. People are looking for things that don't exist which is mainly driven by the media's incessant need to be 'inclusive'. If you're good enough you'll get the job simple as that. Sadly, it is just too much for some folk to accept.

[fatboy47]

I think the next manager of Burnley should be black, female and disabled. Keep everyone happy.

Are you deliberately excluding lesbians?

Outrageous!.

[Lowbankclaret]

You should be embarrassed by that view. Well in the eyes of some at least.

FWIW you are spot in (IMO). 99% of us dont actually care what race, religion, colour someone is. We just want the best people for the jobs.

What I have witnessed where I worked is positive diversity . In its drive for diversity you end up with people getting jobs not based on ability to do the job but on meeting diversity targets.
That’s not likely to happen in football, but it causes lots of issues when you have a significant amount of staff who simply don’t know what their doing.

[Rileybobs]

If you're good enough you'll get the job simple as that. Sadly, it is just too much for some folk to accept.

You don't know that though do you? Why do you presume to know more about this than black ex-footballers struggling to get managerial opportunities?

This may not be an issue, who on here knows for sure. But I don't see anything wrong with the question being asked.

[Rileybobs]

Just to expand on my previous post; for those of you who think that the best person will get the job - as an example, do you think that a person with a tattooed face will have the same chance of getting a call centre job as someone without a tattooed face?

[cricketfieldclarets]

What I have witnessed where I worked is positive diversity . In its drive for diversity you end up with people getting jobs not based on ability to do the job but on meeting diversity targets.
That’s not likely to happen in football, but it causes lots of issues when you have a significant amount of staff who simply don’t know what their doing.

Spot on. Macca says this a lot about key worker roles but its true.

Using an extreme example. I dont give two shits what race, ,religion, nationality or how many legs the fireman who comes to rescue me from a burning building is. As long as he is the most capable!

Same with paramedic. Doctor. Or brew maker!

[cricketfieldclarets]

Anyone who thinks that the OP should be embarrassed at that viewpoint is in my opinion part of the problem. It is a very well balanced OP and makes a valid point. People are looking for things that don't exist which is mainly driven by the media's incessant need to be 'inclusive'. If you're good enough you'll get the job simple as that. Sadly, it is just too much for some folk to accept.

Spot on. People are looking for problems that dont exist. Creating more division in the process!

[pushpinpussy]

Are you deliberately excluding lesbians?

Outrageous!.

Im also adding Transvestite, Scouser and must be from Poland to the list.

[Conroy92]

Just to expand on my previous post; for those of you who think that the best person will get the job - as an example, do you think that a person with a tattooed face will have the same chance of getting a call centre job as someone without a tattooed face?

As someone who was responsible for interviewing and making descions on who got jobs in my place of work I would honestly say, the best person for the job always got it. A man could walk in with a facial tattoo but be head and shoulders above other candidates. He would get the job. (There is someone with facial tattoo's who works at my company to prove it).

For me, I'm not sure that we live in a racist world with a racist government anymore, however I do believe that some individuals in this world are still racists.
To combat this most company's now have specific criteria to meet when hiring so you should in theory pick the best candidate. It's the individuals with there individual motives that can still manipulate this though.

Maybe telephone interviews are the way forwards, that way you can't actually see the person applying, just listen to the information provided?

[Rileybobs]

As someone who was responsible for interviewing and making descions on who got jobs in my place of work I would honestly say, the best person for the job always got it. A man could walk in with a facial tattoo but be head and shoulders above other candidates. He would get the job. (There is someone with facial tattoo's who works at my company to prove it).

For me, I'm not sure that we live in a racist world with a racist government anymore, however I do believe that some individuals in this world are still racists.
To combat this most company's now have specific criteria to meet when hiring so you should in theory pick the best candidate. It's the individuals with there individual motives that can still manipulate this though.

Maybe telephone interviews are the way forwards, that way you can't actually see the person applying, just listen to the information provided?

You’re speaking from your individual experience, and of course many workplaces will have hired people with facial tattoos. But my point was would someone with a facial tattoo stand the same chance of getting a job as someone without a facial tattoo? Let’s assume they are at the same skill level.

Maybe they will at your company, but I don’t think for one minute that they will at all companies. So when you accept that prejudicing based on someone’s appearance does happen I can understand why the question about the number of black football managers is asked.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You’re speaking from your individual experience, and of course many workplaces will have hired people with facial tattoos. But my point was would someone with a facial tattoo stand the same chance of getting a job as someone without a facial tattoo? Let’s assume they are at the same skill level.

Maybe they will at your company, but I don’t think for one minute that they will at all companies. So when you accept that prejudicing based on someone’s appearance does happen I can understand why the question about the number of black football managers is asked.

Car dealership near me wouldn't hire someone with a facial tattoo for working in the car sales, service desk etc.

I suspect they wouldn't for the work shop either.
Those with tattoos on their arms had to keep them covered.

[Stayingup]

Why aren’t more white English players getting a chance?

Haha. Maybe we should introduce quotas pro rata to the demographic of our population. Oh that would go down well with the Virtue Signallers - not!!!

[Stayingup]

Have you ever seen Paul Ince smile? Who'd want to work with that whinging, moaning cretin?

Ok so you dont like him. But probably, like the very likeable and intelligent John Barnes he wouldn't make it as sa manager.

[Stayingup]

Why hasn't Sean Dyche been snapped up by a very top club? Because he is 'ginger' or because he has an English name. Personally I think there may well be an agenda against top English managers of whatever skin colour or ethnicity.

[Gordaleman]

Ok so you dont like him. But probably, like the very likeable and intelligent John Barnes he wouldn't make it as sa manager.

No, I don't like him. When he was at Utd, all he did was whinge, whinge, whinge. As a manager, it's clear that his players didn't like him either, which is probably why they didn't play for him.

John Barnes, totally different as you say. Probably not management material though.

I hate racism in all it's forms though and I'm sure that the main reason more none white men don't get managerial jobs is down to racist Chairmen, not even offering interviews. The talent is there but also, so is racism unfortunately.

[Rileybobs]

Haha. Maybe we should introduce quotas pro rata to the demographic of our population. Oh that would go down well with the Virtue Signallers - not!!!

Virtue signallers? Has that phrase not been lazily overused to death yet?

Why don’t you start a thread about why there is a disproportionate number of black footballers? I think it would be a very interesting discussion around socio-economic and physical factors.

[Grumps]

Just to expand on my previous post; for those of you who think that the best person will get the job - as an example, do you think that a person with a tattooed face will have the same chance of getting a call centre job as someone without a tattooed face?

In a call centre, possibly
In a public facing role probably not

[Hapag Lloyd]

No, I don't like him. When he was at Utd, all he did was whinge, whinge, whinge. As a manager, it's clear that his players didn't like him either, which is probably why they didn't play for him.

John Barnes, totally different as you say. Probably not management material though.

I hate racism in all it's forms though and I'm sure that the main reason more none white men don't get managerial jobs is down to racist Chairmen, not even offering interviews. The talent is there but also, so is racism unfortunately.

Name and shame ‘em if you’re “sure” this is happening.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Car dealership near me wouldn't hire someone with a facial tattoo for working in the car sales, service desk etc.

I suspect they wouldn't for the work shop either.
Those with tattoos on their arms had to keep them covered.

Neither would I.

Anyone stupid enough to tattoo their face shouldn’t expect to be on a level playing field with someone who doesn’t.

[LeadBelly]

In a customer-facing job, one of the attributes of "best person for the job" is surely how likely it is that customers will trust/relate well to that person.
Facial tattoos probably a bit of a negative in that respect. Though a person with facial tattoos could well have other attributes that counterbalanced that.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

In a call centre, possibly
In a public facing role probably not

When my mum used to manage a couple of Vodafone call centres they wouldn't hire people with tattoos on hands, neck, face because whilst they were usually only chatting to customers on the phone occasionally they had higher profile customers visit the centres and they wanted to present a respectable image.

That may be different now, but 10 yrs ago that's how it was.

[Conroy92]

You’re speaking from your individual experience, and of course many workplaces will have hired people with facial tattoos. But my point was would someone with a facial tattoo stand the same chance of getting a job as someone without a facial tattoo? Let’s assume they are at the same skill level.

Maybe they will at your company, but I don’t think for one minute that they will at all companies. So when you accept that prejudicing based on someone’s appearance does happen I can understand why the question about the number of black football managers is asked.

Eh? Did you read the last bit of my post?

"So when you accept that prejudicing based on someone’s appearance does happen I can understand why the question about the number of black football managers is asked."

I said I think people are racist, individual people? Try reading the full post next time.

[CrosspoolClarets]

An interesting thread, and without wanting to put words in mouths cricketfieldclaret has always seemed on the liberal end of the spectrum (a compliment) so it seems to be proof of the silliness our country has got into they he is getting some stick for the OP.

I think there probably is a little bit of an issue with BAME managers in the pro game (I don’t know enough about lower levels and suspect there are some complex issues to consider there).But it is far too simplistic though to think that x% BAME players should translate to x% BAME managers. The entire skillset is different. Many don’t have perfect English for a start (more important in a manager than a player). Others may not get work permits. Others may not have come through the ranks of football in the UK with a good knowledge of tactics, motivational techniques etc.

As usual, the truth is probably in the middle. There is probably a degree of inherent bias, but there are also good reasons why the current managers are the best candidates.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

A lack of perfect English doesn't stop players coming to the UK, it didn't stop Poch when he first got the Saints manager job, although he did go to great lengths to improve it and 'hid' behind a translator for a long while.

I'm not sure it's crucial that a player hasn't come through the ranks of English football, because it's generally accepted view that foreign managers have more tactical nous etc.

[Rileybobs]

Eh? Did you read the last bit of my post?

"So when you accept that prejudicing based on someone’s appearance does happen I can understand why the question about the number of black football managers is asked."

I said I think people are racist, individual people? Try reading the full post next time.

Whoa. Steady on. I used the term ‘you’ instead of ‘one’ as in ‘when one accepts that prejudicing...’ which sounds a little pretentious. I wasn’t referring to you, the person. My fault for poor grammar.

[Rileybobs]

An interesting thread, and without wanting to put words in mouths cricketfieldclaret has always seemed on the liberal end of the spectrum (a compliment) so it seems to be proof of the silliness our country has got into they he is getting some stick for the OP.

I think there probably is a little bit of an issue with BAME managers in the pro game (I don’t know enough about lower levels and suspect there are some complex issues to consider there).But it is far too simplistic though to think that x% BAME players should translate to x% BAME managers. The entire skillset is different. Many don’t have perfect English for a start (more important in a manager than a player). Others may not get work permits. Others may not have come through the ranks of football in the UK with a good knowledge of tactics, motivational techniques etc.

As usual, the truth is probably in the middle. There is probably a degree of inherent bias, but there are also good reasons why the current managers are the best candidates.

Interested to hear what makes you think that BAME people have less perfect English than white people?

[Erasmus]

Nobody knows the reason for this do they? The questions are:

Do black players not get jobs as managers because they are not good enough?
If they are not good enough, why aren't they good enough?
If they are not getting jobs because they don't see it as a viable career move, why do they see it in that way?
If they are trying to get jobs as managers, why are so few being given the opportunity?

Really very complex questions and simplistic answers won't do. There is of course the usual 'there's no racism any more' group of posters, but quite obviously that is a ridiculously glib response to a complex issue.

[Woodleyclaret]

Sherie Lungi was the only female manager of mens teams I remember

[Conroy92]

Whoa. Steady on. I used the term ‘you’ instead of ‘one’ as in ‘when one accepts that prejudicing...’ which sounds a little pretentious. I wasn’t referring to you, the person. My fault for poor grammar.

Maybe I was a little hasty! No worries

[Bin Ont Turf]

Nobody knows the reason for this do they? The questions are:

Do black players not get jobs as managers because they are not good enough?
If they are not good enough, why aren't they good enough?
If they are not getting jobs because they don't see it as a viable career move, why do they see it in that way?
If they are trying to get jobs as managers, why are so few being given the opportunity?

Really very complex questions and simplistic answers won't do. There is of course the usual 'there's no racism any more' group of posters, but quite obviously that is a ridiculously glib response to a complex issue.

Do black players after having a full career as a player, only become the victims of racism when there is a role of manager available?

It's weird lefty b0llocks.

[ksrclaret]

DA called this thread right back with post #5.

[cricketfieldclarets]

An interesting thread, and without wanting to put words in mouths cricketfieldclaret has always seemed on the liberal end of the spectrum (a compliment) so it seems to be proof of the silliness our country has got into they he is getting some stick for the OP.

Correct. FWIW. My nephew and niece are mixed race. My cousin (who I’ve just been out with this evening as it happens) is married to a black girl and have four kids together. I would guess that More than half of my mates aren’t white British. And I went to a school that was overwhelmingly Asian.

One of my dads very close mates is Jamaican.

I suspect most if not all would agree that the media are constantly creating issues that don’t exist. At least en masse.

[dsr]

Just to expand on my previous post; for those of you who think that the best person will get the job - as an example, do you think that a person with a tattooed face will have the same chance of getting a call centre job as someone without a tattooed face?

No - but is that necessarily wrong? You aren't born with a tattooed face, and it's not something that is forced upon you. If someone chooses to tattoo their face, that is part of who they are. Just as if they turn up for the interview in ripped jeans, or they pick their nose throughout the interview - you're allowed to be prejudiced about that sort of thing.

[BFC Gold]

Like for like comparison though.

Two elite level players, both intelligent, articulate and wealth of experience having played for some of the best managers in the game.

One got his first job in the championship and then straight into an elite level job.

The other had to scratch around for years and eventually ended up in the lower leagues.

I'm not crackers, I've presented a well reasoned opinion which you then decided to respond using Nick effing Barmby

One has the right attitude and the other one simply does n`t, in fact quite obviously has a chip on his shoulder...

[BFC Gold]

Les Ferdinand isn’t a coach - he’s on the QPR board. One of the only black people sat on a league club board

Paul Ince has argued for years he has been overlooked for a number of roles due to the colour of his skin.

Barnes is arguing about the point in general now rather than about himself. He no longer wants to coach apparently.

Maybe you should do some more research about what it is they are saying because right from the off you seem to be making stuff up to try and fit into a view you want to hold.
I’d still be a bit embarrassed about that OP if I were you.

It`s called cognitive dissonance which I don`t think applies here. If you were to compare Paul Ince with say Roy Keane, who have many similarities in footballing terms and also in personality and attitude too. Both had similar careers both as players and managers and ultimately both fell short when it came to succeeding at the highest level of management. Both had the same opportunities and so it could be argued that their personalities and characters were the over riding reason behind their limited success and obviously nothing whatsoever relative to their skin colour...

[Vegas Claret]

feels like for every 5 goals we score against them Man City score 91 - that needs addressing !

[Woodleyclaret]

Re Marvin he did used to be in double glazing so clearly is half way there for media work.

[TVC15]

It`s called cognitive dissonance which I don`t think applies here. If you were to compare Paul Ince with say Roy Keane, who have many similarities in footballing terms and also in personality and attitude too. Both had similar careers both as players and managers and ultimately both fell short when it came to succeeding at the highest level of management. Both had the same opportunities and so it could be argued that their personalities and characters were the over riding reason behind their limited success and obviously nothing whatsoever relative to their skin colour...

I am not saying whether Ince is right or wrong with regard his own situation. I tend to agree (looking at it from the outside and without all the facts) that he has a massive chip on his shoulder, he’s arrogant and that in terms of his managerial skills that his limitations were exposed when he stepped up into higher divisions.
But Ince is just one of several black ex players who feels that there is discrimination in football and this is linked to the fact that there is so few black managers in football compared to the number of players.
You cannot dispute that there is a large discrepancy in the numbers.
I don’t know the reasons for this discrepancy or whether there is a case for what black players are arguing. But to simply assume they are wrong and there is no issue here seems to me personally a bit dismissive of the fact that we know prejudice and discrimination has existed across many walks of society for a long time so it’s not hard to see why that might also be the case in football.

In terms of the OP - there is nothing wrong with part of what was said or many of the posts CC subsequently posted. But if you read the original post again the opening bit about population statistics is just daft and either deliberately trying to stir things up or a million miles off the point. To throw in a point that more of a concern was the number of white players in the starting line up suggests it was the former....and not sure why it was being made or whether he was being serious (I doubt it but why throw it in then ?)

[Danieljwaterhouse]

Like for like comparison though.

Two elite level players, both intelligent, articulate and wealth of experience having played for some of the best managers in the game.

One got his first job in the championship and then straight into an elite level job.

The other had to scratch around for years and eventually ended up in the lower leagues.

I'm not crackers, I've presented a well reasoned opinion which you then decided to respond using Nick effing Barmby

You both make good points, handbags away.

The comparisons between Lampard and Campbell are valid, but they don’t take into account the personalities. To me Lampard was a model of humble professionalism, Campbell wasn’t.

It could just be that Lampard is better at managing people and has nothing to do with skin colour, experience, and or coaching talent.

It could be varied other mectrics that we don’t see or can’t see.

There’s work to be done across the board to create the culture and then pathways to allow bame representatives opportunities to access jobs in football post playing career. Once they’re in place it’s talent over prejudice ever time.

[Rileybobs]

No - but is that necessarily wrong? You aren't born with a tattooed face, and it's not something that is forced upon you. If someone chooses to tattoo their face, that is part of who they are. Just as if they turn up for the interview in ripped jeans, or they pick their nose throughout the interview - you're allowed to be prejudiced about that sort of thing.

It’s pretty obvious that someone can choose to have facial tattoos whereas someone can’t choose the colour of their skin.

I used a call centre as an example where someone’s appearance is totally irrelevant to their ability to do their job - so why should they stand less chance of getting that job than someone without a facial tattoo?

The point that you’ve helped me to prove is that some people, probably all of us in some ways, are prejudiced against others because of their appearance. So it’s incredibly naive to dismiss the idea that black ex-footballers find it harder to get managerial positions - particularly when some black ex-footballers are claiming that isn’t the case. A poster above claims that BAME people speak less perfect English than white people which demonstrates the kind of ignorance that we’re up against.

What is wrong with having the conversation? I don’t agree with quotas etc. but to just dismiss the idea that there may be an issue is silly.

[arise_sir_charge]

Sol Campbell has always come across as a bit of a nob and this may have got in the way of him getting chances. Turns out he's not been that great when given chances either.

It's quite possible that certain creeds, colours, ethnicities, genders etc simply aren't suited to particular roles that others are. It's just how it is!

Sport in particular is full of this, because ultimately within sport, ability is what gets you far. Why are most successful sprinters black? Why do Kenya produce the best long distance runners? Why are most successful swimmers white? It goes on and on, it simply is what it is.

Look at cricket, for all intents and purposes, English players and Australians are of the same ethnicity yet Australia have generally produced faster bowlers than we have etc etc.

I have noticed that across all walks of life now (Sport/Industry/Finance/Politics) there are studies, think tanks, working parties etc etc into increasing the number of BAME people involved at higher levels.......My fear now is that there won't be enough of them to go round! What happens then?

[dsr]

It’s pretty obvious that someone can choose to have facial tattoos whereas someone can’t choose the colour of their skin.

I used a call centre as an example where someone’s appearance is totally irrelevant to their ability to do their job - so why should they stand less chance of getting that job than someone without a facial tattoo?

The point that you’ve helped me to prove is that some people, probably all of us in some ways, are prejudiced against others because of their appearance. So it’s incredibly naive to dismiss the idea that black ex-footballers find it harder to get managerial positions - particularly when some black ex-footballers are claiming that isn’t the case. A poster above claims that BAME people speak less perfect English than white people which demonstrates the kind of ignorance that we’re up against.

What is wrong with having the conversation? I don’t agree with quotas etc. but to just dismiss the idea that there may be an issue is silly.

Nothing wrong with having the conversation, if it can be had. The problem comes when someone makes a suggestion that perhaps white men for unexplained reasons make better managers than black men. It's unlikely to be discussed sensibly, because there will be shouts of "racist" to the extent that people dare not ask the question. And if the question dare not be asked, then it can't be answered.

If you say "at top level, black men make better footballers than white men because ..." that's fine. If you say "white men make better managers than black men because ..." then that's not fine. Hence I have no idea whether it is true or not - it seems unlikely, but it's not impossible - because it hasn't been properly asked or answered.

Incidentally, "BAME" is one of the most offensively divisive ideas around, and I have no idea how it gained such credence. To spilt the UK population into "white British" and "the rest" is an appalling oversimplification worthy of white supremacists. If we want to talk about lack of black managers - and we do - then why lump black men, of whom there are many in football, with Indians, Chinese, Jews, Arabs, Japanese, Irish(!), and all the many other ethnic groups represented in the UK? The question of underrepresentation of Indians in football is an entirely different question from the lack of black managers.

[Rileybobs]

Nothing wrong with having the conversation, if it can be had. The problem comes when someone makes a suggestion that perhaps white men for unexplained reasons make better managers than black men. It's unlikely to be discussed sensibly, because there will be shouts of "racist" to the extent that people dare not ask the question. And if the question dare not be asked, then it can't be answered.

If you say "at top level, black men make better footballers than white men because ..." that's fine. If you say "white men make better managers than black men because ..." then that's not fine. Hence I have no idea whether it is true or not - it seems unlikely, but it's not impossible - because it hasn't been properly asked or answered.

Incidentally, "BAME" is one of the most offensively divisive ideas around, and I have no idea how it gained such credence. To spilt the UK population into "white British" and "the rest" is an appalling oversimplification worthy of white supremacists. If we want to talk about lack of black managers - and we do - then why lump black men, of whom there are many in football, with Indians, Chinese, Jews, Arabs, Japanese, Irish(!), and all the many other ethnic groups represented in the UK? The question of underrepresentation of Indians in football is an entirely different question from the lack of black managers.

But black men don't make better footballers than white men. Some black footballers will be better than some white footballers and vice versa. The two players who have dominated the game for the past generation are both white. As I mentioned in an above post I think there could be an interesting discussion to be had about why there are a disproportionately high number of black professional footballers in England. And I expect some of the reasoning will be down to genetics and also various socio-economic factors.

By the same measure, I don't think that white people make better football managers than black people - what is it about a white person that would make him less capable than a white counterpart? If some black ex-footballers are claiming that there is an underlying reason preventing them from getting a job in football management then I think we should look into their claims. They have more experience than you, I or other people posting on this forum so to dismiss their claim entirely, as many people have on this thread, is just ignorant.

Re. the use of BAME - I agree and I don't like the term, but it seems to be the correct terminology hence why I have used it.