Premier League confirms wrong penalty decisions in all Thursday games

[tiger76]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53357841 how on earth with the aid of VAR, can they get 3 decisions wrong in one night, this is bordering on slapstick now. And it's not as if they were minimal calls either, they are exactly the type of incidents that VAR has been set up to rectify.

Compare to the reviews in the Test Match, where the umpires made a fair call on all the decisions, only to see them overturned on review, but they were all close shaves, and not stonewall as the 3 penalty calls should have been.

If they can't even reach a correct conclusion with clear and obvious incidents such as the 3 highlighted, then what hope is there for them to get the doubtful decisions correct. And if VAR officials aren't prepared to make the big calls, what is the point of having the system in the first place.

[jackmiggins]

Is it perhaps possible that our ‘authorities’ are not too keen on VAR and are putting together a case to have it removed from the game?

[Vegas Claret]

been saying for ages it needs ex players doing the VAR, they have no affiliation to the referees and would probably show a little bit of common sense. As it is, with who is running it, VAR is a complete **** show

[Bordeauxclaret]

Stop putting idiots in charge of VAR.

[ClaretAL]

VAR should be run like Rugby Union. The VAR ref highlights a possible error, the Ref on the pitch is overall in charge and he takes a look at the replay via big screen or pitch side monitor in conversation with VAR Ref but the final decision is for the Ref on the pitch to make.
At the moment there is no responsibility on the pitch anymore and its becoming complacent for the ref to just point to his ear as if to say Stockley park said so.

[BenWickes]

been saying for ages it needs ex players doing the VAR, they have no affiliation to the referees and would probably show a little bit of common sense. As it is, with who is running it, VAR is a complete **** show

Problem with that is they don't necessarily always agree. Putting aside personal dislikes for certain ex-players. Garth Crooks and Martin Keown for instance. They often fall out over decisions. Crooks says it isn't a foul, Keown says it is and vice versa. Not even bringing Karen Carney into the equation. She'd probably give a penalty if there was a foul in the centre circle!

[The Enclosure]

Let the managers fight it out on the touchline to decide if its a penaly.We may get a quite a few going our way then.

[Woodleyclaret]

Crap refs are still crap refs even watching VAR
How did Super Jonny Moss not see the stamp on the Villa defenders ankle by the Man U forward trying to simulate a foul
To award a penalty was outrageous in the first place and then for VAR to confirm it, even worse.
But Manure are "back to their brilliant best"no Villa are ragged and Captain Jack has the leadership qualities of a woodlouse.

[box_of_frogs]

VAR should be run like Rugby Union. The VAR ref highlights a possible error, the Ref on the pitch is overall in charge and he takes a look at the replay via big screen or pitch side monitor in conversation with VAR Ref but the final decision is for the Ref on the pitch to make.
At the moment there is no responsibility on the pitch anymore and its becoming complacent for the ref to just point to his ear as if to say Stockley park said so.

Yep. Works well for Rugby.

[Hibsclaret]

The most embarrassing night yet for VAR.

Just the 3 out of 3 games affected with 2 out of 3 results directly affected (the Saints pen was missed).

It would be interesting for them to analyse how many games and results have been affected by incorrect VAR decisions during the whole season. There would be different European places and some relegation slots for sure.

Embarrassing

[CharlieinNewMexico]

Jon Moss and Lee Mason though. They can never get their whistle to their mouths fast enough. Despite being 40 yards behind play. Anything in the box their eyes light up! Poor Jon I thought he was going to burst today. Obviously he struggles with his weight so I’m not having a go but my god the lockdown has not been kind, today he was massive.

[Hibsclaret]

Jon Moss and Lee Mason though. They can never get their whistle to their mouths fast enough. Despite being 40 yards behind play. Anything in the box their eyes light up! Poor Jon I thought he was going to burst today. Obviously he struggles with his weight so I’m not having a go but my god the lockdown has not been kind, today he was massive.

I’d like to be a fly on the wall when you are.....having a go

[CharlieinNewMexico]

I’d like to be a fly on the wall when you are.....having a go

Perhaps that did sound unkind. And to be fair, Deep Deep Cover Agent Moss deserves admiration for sticking to his brief with those 20 horrific games against us in a row before his glorious mission was finally accomplished at Old Trafford.

[Gordaleman]

I've been against VAR from the start. Football doesn't need technology, it needs refs with common sense.

These days it's so easy for them to give a penalty and escape all blame by handing the decision to someone miles away from the action.

If we have to have VAR, then do away with Stockley Park and make the ref review the decision himself at the pitchside.

It's just jobs for the boys at the moment.

[Hibsclaret]

VAR would be great....in the right hands

In the hands of our top officials...it’s terrible

[NottsClaret]

Funny that people still say 'it's not VAR, it's how it's used'. As if VAR is some sort of super computer technology being operated by fools.

It's just another ref, in a hut watching telly. It's not being misused at all, it's just people having opinions as it always was. Now instead of taking the rough with the smooth and getting on with it... we wait 5 minutes, still have to take the rough with the smooth and then carry on anyway. How was it ever going to be any different?

[jojomk1]

There has to be an ex pro with the VAR ref at Stockley Park

[Sheedyclaret]

The on field refs need to show more responsibility use the pitch side screens ffs..

[NottsClaret]

You can have an ex-pro, a pundit or whoever else you want in there. It's still opinions. How do the get it 'right' when everyone has a different view on what 'right' is. Goal line technology (Villa Park aside) and mistaken identity only. Everything else go back to real-time, on the pitch reffing.

[Hibsclaret]

Nonsense. Of course it’s how it is used.

If the Man U pen and the Saints pen gets chalked off and Kane gets his pen yesterday we say VAR is great...therefore it is absolutely clueless officiating that is the problem...not VAR

[NottsClaret]

Nonsense. Of course it’s how it is used.

If the Man U pen and the Saints pen gets chalked off and Kane gets his pen yesterday we say VAR is great...therefore it is absolutely clueless officiating that is the problem...not VAR

Ha.. that's just it though, they didn't. Because somebody thought those were the right calls. That'll always be the case. We're no closer to improving anything than saying the on field ref should just 'get things right'. VAR is just a man watching a telly, it's never going to fix anything. It's making the spectacle poorer and fans angrier. What's the point of it all?

Ultimately, the right decision for everyone involved is one that they agree with, has always been thus.

[Bigvince]

Only seen the man ure penalty, but how can you watch that over and still think it’s a penalty? It almost as if the footballing authorities want them to get a penalty

[Somethingfishy]

The ex pro idea seems a good idea at first thought but when you have the likes of Shearer and Phil Neville saying "he was entitled to go down" would it actually make any difference?

[Hibsclaret]

Only seen the man ure penalty, but how can you watch that over and still think it’s a penalty? It almost as if the footballing authorities want them to get a penalty

Another problem is Ole saying it is a deffo pen.....

[lakedistrictclaret]

The problem with VAR is pointed out by ex-referee Peter Walton in today's Times.

VAR is NOT there to get the correct call. It is there to make sure that the ref on the field had not made a clear and obvious error.

[scouseclaret]

Is it perhaps possible that our ‘authorities’ are not too keen on VAR and are putting together a case to have it removed from the game?

I thought this from fairly early on - probably since Barnes didn’t get that penalty against Norwich. make the whole thing a complete sh!t show and we’ll eventually all agree to scrap it.

I’m not normally given to conspiracy theories, but there is no other explanation for what happened last night.

[RammyClaret61]

The Aussie A-League restarts shortly. They’ve made the decision to finish the season without VAR. But they say it’s for financial reasons.

[Cirrus_Minor]

The awarding the Man Utd penalty last night was appalling. But when it is upheld after being reviewed by VAR just makes you despair. Villa may well have lost in the end, but to have that penalty awarded in such an important game for them makes the mind boggle.

[scouseclaret]

Funny that people still say 'it's not VAR, it's how it's used'. As if VAR is some sort of super computer technology being operated by fools.

It's just another ref, in a hut watching telly. It's not being misused at all, it's just people having opinions as it always was. Now instead of taking the rough with the smooth and getting on with it... we wait 5 minutes, still have to take the rough with the smooth and then carry on anyway. How was it ever going to be any different?

Just such a cop-out. These are refs who get to see incidents from all angles, close up, slowed down, while the infield ref sees every incident just once, at full speed and not always from a suitable angle. The quality of decision making should be vastly improved, but it isn’t.

Yes, there will always be matters of opinion, but when you have a situation like the Man U penalty last night, when virtually everybody agrees - including the games ruling body - that a clear mistake was made, something is badly wrong.

[KRBFC]

The one at Everton was blatantly never a penalty, the lad is falling over way before any kind of contact.

[ClaretTony]

[url]Compare to the reviews in the Test Match, where the umpires made a fair call on all the decisions, only to see them overturned on review, but they were all close shaves, and not stonewall as the 3 penalty calls should have been.

You can't compare. Cricket decisions are objective while in football they are subjective. It's not VAR getting it wrong, it's the incompetent officials.

[grapidianclaret]

VAR should be used to review Moss's refereeing licence,that is one of the biggest errors in football.

[tiger76]

The on field refs need to show more responsibility use the pitch side screens ffs..

Apparently they can only use the monitors for red card decisions, as happened in the Arsenal-Leicester game the other night.

Seems bizarre to me that the technology's available, and yet they are restricting it's usage, either use it completely or don't bother with it at all.

Equally the officials have to take responsibility, whether they are on the field or in a video centre. When you consider there's the ref, 2 assistants, and a VAR ref, and they still can't get basic decisions correct, you do have to wonder how competent they really are.

[NottsClaret]

Just such a cop-out. These are refs who get to see incidents from all angles, close up, slowed down, while the infield ref sees every incident just once, at full speed and not always from a suitable angle. The quality of decision making should be vastly improved, but it isn’t.

Yes, there will always be matters of opinion, but when you have a situation like the Man U penalty last night, when virtually everybody agrees - including the games ruling body - that a clear mistake was made, something is badly wrong.

This is proving difficult.

OK, so what are you suggesting? You can slow it down, change the angle and all the rest. They've been doing that on MoTD for years. And they still end up arguing among themselves about what the 'right' decision was. It's a majority view - though not unanimous - that the video ref got it wrong last night, but there's nothing to stop that happening again. Get new refs, train them more, pay them more.. it's a human making decisions under pressure with an element of opinion thrown in. That's never going to get the solution you're looking for.

There's nothing badly wrong. It's just the same as it ever was, officials making calls on what they see - then people disagreeing. The only difference now is that we stop the game, disallow 'goals', stand around for five minutes and then continue with the same perceived flawed, imperfect outcomes we've always had.

[Colburn_Claret]

VAR works all over the world, it's only in this country that the powers that be make a pigs ear of it.
They need to do away with the studio crap. The man on the pitch needs to make all the calls, and use the pitch side monitor for close calls.
They need to do away with stupid lines, that have half a toe nail offside. If the ref can't pick it up with the naked eye it should be classed as onside.
They could also give the managers 3 shouts at reviews. Like cricket, if you call it wrong, you lose a review.
How the hell do we make something so simple, appear so complicated.

[PWBFC]

Funny that people still say 'it's not VAR, it's how it's used'. As if VAR is some sort of super computer technology being operated by fools.

It's just another ref, in a hut watching telly. It's not being misused at all, it's just people having opinions as it always was. Now instead of taking the rough with the smooth and getting on with it... we wait 5 minutes, still have to take the rough with the smooth and then carry on anyway. How was it ever going to be any different?

Couldn’t agree more with this.

[huw.Y.WattfromWare]

VAR works all over the world, it's only in this country that the powers that be make a pigs ear of it.
They need to do away with the studio crap. The man on the pitch needs to make all the calls, and use the pitch side monitor for close calls.
They need to do away with stupid lines, that have half a toe nail offside. If the ref can't pick it up with the naked eye it should be classed as onside.
They could also give the managers 3 shouts at reviews. Like cricket, if you call it wrong, you lose a review.
How the hell do we make something so simple, appear so complicated.

Not sure about the ref using pitch side for every call. The games could take 3 hrs but agrre with the rest of your post.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

This is proving difficult.

OK, so what are you suggesting? You can slow it down, change the angle and all the rest. They've been doing that on MoTD for years. And they still end up arguing among themselves about what the 'right' decision was. It's a majority view - though not unanimous - that the video ref got it wrong last night, but there's nothing to stop that happening again. Get new refs, train them more, pay them more.. it's a human making decisions under pressure with an element of opinion thrown in. That's never going to get the solution you're looking for.

There's nothing badly wrong. It's just the same as it ever was, officials making calls on what they see - then people disagreeing. The only difference now is that we stop the game, disallow 'goals', stand around for five minutes and then continue with the same perceived flawed, imperfect outcomes we've always had.

Notts --your three posts certainly highlight the fact that it is still about opinions ----and it always will be.
When football was a great game to watch with some really good players who really wanted to play and did so on mud heaps and frozen pitches with footballs that used to get heavier as the game went on, wearing proper boots etc.,etc. we used to have three officials at the top level doing a great job and using common sense in their decision making. Yes there were the odd problems, however, players just got on with it and mainly accepted the decisions given by those three officials.
The modern game at the top level now has 6 officials involved, plus technology, and all it has done is to allow more people to express an opinion and, in effect, it has doubled the arguments!
Sadly, it will not get any better and there are fewer people interested in officiating, therefore, you can draw your own conclusions as to where it will all end.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

VAR works all over the world, it's only in this country that the powers that be make a pigs ear of it.
They need to do away with the studio crap. The man on the pitch needs to make all the calls, and use the pitch side monitor for close calls.
They need to do away with stupid lines, that have half a toe nail offside. If the ref can't pick it up with the naked eye it should be classed as onside.
They could also give the managers 3 shouts at reviews. Like cricket, if you call it wrong, you lose a review.
How the hell do we make something so simple, appear so complicated.

Sorry, VAR does not work all over the world. It is used in most places in the world, however, it has just as many problems, however, the media does not publicise it as much as the British media do in the PL. It is still introducing more opinions about decisions and will never be 100% correct. Even the goal line technoogy has been proved to be less than 100% correct in the last month.

[tiger76]

You can't compare. Cricket decisions are objective while in football they are subjective. It's not VAR getting it wrong, it's the incompetent officials.

Well that's true generally, but nobody apart from the match officials thinks that the Man U or Southampton incidents should have been penalties, and everybody that I've seen discussing the blatant push on Kane is baffled how Spurs weren't awarded a spot-kick, i'd dearly love to know how they came to all 3 decisions, and it'll be interesting if any of the officials involved in the VAR process are downgraded as a result of their clear mistakes, even the PL have had to come out and try and limit the damage, but even they can't defend these decisions, hence why they've stated all 3 were incorrect.

I can forgive the ref if he misses something in the heat of the action, but this is when VAR is supposed to step in and assist him, and if those 3 incidents last night weren't clear and obvious errors, i don't know what is classed as clear and obvious.

[ClaretTony]

Even the goal line technoogy has not been proved to be less than 100% correct in the last month.

I'm still not convinced on that - I remain sure they forgot to switch it on.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

CT --I have just edited to say that it has been proved to be less than 100% correct and from what I have heard --the fault was at the ground and it worked in favour of the home team on this occasion but we still don't know exactly what happened!

[Hibsclaret]

VAR will only have a chance to work better when:

The clear and obvious nonsense is dropped
The VAR makes an actual decision based on the evidence of his review of multiple angles irrespective of what the onfield ref has given

At the minute they spend more time looking at whether a decision is a clear and obvious error rather then looking at the decision in terms of whether it’s a foul or not.

[Leisure]

What is the criteria used to determine a clear and obvious error?

[Vegas Claret]

Problem with that is they don't necessarily always agree. Putting aside personal dislikes for certain ex-players. Garth Crooks and Martin Keown for instance. They often fall out over decisions. Crooks says it isn't a foul, Keown says it is and vice versa. Not even bringing Karen Carney into the equation. She'd probably give a penalty if there was a foul in the centre circle!

I wouldn't have Garth Crooks near football

[Vegas Claret]

It's not VAR getting it wrong, it's the incompetent officials.

exactly this and the level of incompetence is astounding

[Vegas Claret]

What is the criteria used to determine a clear and obvious error?

clearly not overturning one of the clearest and obvious errors we've seen so far

There isn't any criteria, it changes from game to game and completely depends on which idiot is in the VAR room

[BenWickes]

I wouldn't have Garth Crooks near football

I was using him as an example. There are plenty of other ex players who see decisions differently to other ex players.

[Vegas Claret]

I was using him as an example. There are plenty of other ex players who see decisions differently to other ex players.

I know, i'd still rather have a person who has played the game make the decisions though.

As it is, it's like having a private pilot who has 20 hours experience flying a light aircraft in perfect weather deciding if a 747 pilot with 30 years experience is doing it wrong. Even if on the odd occasion they get the decision wrong or you don't agree you go with the experience every single time.

Imagine if Dyche left and I got the job because I played football but wasn't good enough to be a professional - you go with experience for a reason, there aren't many managers who didn't play professionally

I also think the ability to draw lines needs to be removed - if it's not clear and obvious then you are onside, if we need 5 mins to draw multiple lines then it is clearly not clear and obvious.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

Offside is the only decision which VAR can correctly rule on because it is black and white
Fouls, tackles etc. are all down to opinions both on the field and off it.