A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

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Rowls
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A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Rowls » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:33 pm

As a Dr Who fan, I keep an eye for a particular guy who has devoted a lot of the past decade travelling the globe looking for missing TV episodes.

Dr Who is missing several episodes and stories which were originally broadcast in the 1960s because the BBC, at that time, had no central archive and no proper archiving process.

It meant that copies of TV programmes were variously held at the BBC sales department (which tried to sell copies to foreign counties, especially Commonwealth members where ex-pats were likely to live) as well as centrally at the BBC.

However, storing tape and film is expensive and takes up valuable space so these various departments which had copies of programmes were instructed to destroy them once they were past their usuable life. Nobody had thought to check if the copy being thrown away was actually the last copy. Pretty much everybody assumed there was another copy somewhere else.

When Britain switched to colour TV, black & white copies were particularly vulnerable to this cultural vandalism because they were seen as less valuable.

British TV archives are missing large swathes of programmes of cultural and historical importance such as:

Match of the Day
Top of the Pops
Dixon of Dock Green
Sherlock Holmes (starring Peter Cushing)

etc etc. The lists go on and on.

We even threw away the last copy of the BBC broadcast of the moon landings. That's right folks - the greatest achievement of mankind in the 20th century and the BBC threw away the film. Only a few seconds of footage that got re-used for other programmes now survives.

But all is not lost.

Remember that I said the BBC sold copies to foreign archives? These were sold on the condition that they were thrown away or disposed of after they had been broadcast. However, many of these African countries weren't so happy to treat these films as ephemerally as the BBC were - they kept them.

It means that there may be hundred (or even thousands) of cultural gems sitting in foreign archives around the world.

It's how some very valuable Dr Who episodes were discovered back in 2013, as you might remember:

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-24467337

Sadly, when it comes to recovering these missing episodes there is a snag - they are valuable.

The BBC had decided in the 1970s when they wanted them junking that they were not and ordered foreign archives to throw them away or junk them. We should be thankful for the fact that they did not. However, the foreign stations were technically in breach of their contract.

The material is now valuable, the BBC still own the copyright to the material but the legal owners of the actual filmcans is disputable. Arguably they belong the foreign station even though they did not follow their instructions to dispose of the material.

All this means that in order to repatriate such material there are legal minefields. This material is valuable and the stations know it. They rightly want a bit of remuneration for saving our cultural heritage. And then there is the BBC, which is forbidden to buy its own material by it carter but which now wants its valuable material returning, even though they originally wanted it destroying... :shock: :? :roll:

That's where this obsessive Dr Who fan comes in.... He had the idea that he would offer an "archiving service" to foreign stations: He would digitize, rescue and catalogue their ageing (and often badly stored) archives and in return he would get the opportunity to "repatriate" films of historical interest which may be missing from our own archives.

It's a neat solution because everybody gets something out of it. But there's still a minefiled of negotiations to get through.

There are rumours that he's found thousands of missing programmes that would be of national interest but, quite naturally, he's having to negotiate a fair price with the stations who kept them over the years.

Why have I written all this doing on a BFC forum?

The details of what may, or may not, have been found are being kept strictly confidential so nobody knows what might have been recovered. However, the man in question seemingly enjoys teasing out little details here and there.

He's just posted an image of a film can that is a copy (presumably the only one in existance) of "Saturday Sport" from November 24th 1962.

https://twitter.com/archives1963/status ... 6765849600

I've looked up the synopsis for that episode and it's presented by Kenneth Wolstenholme and features a look at the 1962 cup final from the summer of that year.

https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/ae2432fc976 ... 3e66aa87eb

Hopefully one day we'll be able to watch it again and we'll perhaps get a little bit of new footage, interviews or little bit of additional insight into the '62 cup final.

I imagine the footage of the game will already exist but there's a strong chance we might get to hear an interview or a bit of analysis that has hitherto been lost to time.

Here's hoping!
These 3 users liked this post: 4:20 cricketfield73 Polesworth

Clarets4me
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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:46 pm

Never a penalty against Brian Miller, hit his shoulder !!

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Silkyskills1 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:47 pm

Enjoyed reading that, Rowls. Thought the 'throw away' society was more of a modern phenomenon but evidently it isn't. Always look forward to any sort of nostalgia. :D

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:49 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:47 pm
Enjoyed reading that, Rowls. Thought the 'throw away' society was more of a modern phenomenon but evidently it isn't. Always look forward to any sort of nostalgia. :D
As I get older, I'm finding that nostalgia isn't what it used to be ! ;) ;) I

Rowls
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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Rowls » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:50 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:47 pm
Enjoyed reading that, Rowls. Thought the 'throw away' society was more of a modern phenomenon but evidently it isn't. Always look forward to any sort of nostalgia. :D
We could be looking at years, sadly.

These rumours of found episode have been circulating amongst the Dr Who nerds for almost a decade now. Finds such as this film indicative they *might* be true, but equally they might be wild exaggerations.

Fingers crossed we get to see the programme at some point. Be great if it had better footage of the "penalty" or, for example, an interivew with Harry Potts, Jimmy Adamson or somebody else.

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by 4:20 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:32 pm

Great post. Such a shame so much has been lost, there's a 1955 dramatisation of The Lord Of The Rings on radio that is presumably lost forever, Tolkien was even consulted for production, it was the only adaptation that was broadcast during his lifetime and he was quite scathing about the BBC's attempt.

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by mdd2 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:56 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:46 pm
Never a penalty against Brian Miller, hit his shoulder !!
Spot on there pretty sure it was Tommy Cummings who handled the ball and he admitted to me that it was a penalty. I was in his pub up Harle Syke lunch time before the Spurs Forest Cup Final in 1991. However before that incident Blacklaw had been fouled and the linesman flagged for it but ref ignored hion for VAR or even microphones between linos and refs as we would have only lost 2-1-Spurs were the better team that day as pur players were cream crackered from their heavy games total in April 1962. We played 13 games in 36 days from March 31st. This season end we will have played 9 in 34 days

Hipper
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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Hipper » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:09 pm

The 1962 Cup Final is on DVD in Black & White. I watched it once and is such a 'polite' match - players speedily restarting play, getting balls for the opponent etc.. I think it starts with about twenty minutes where the referee doesn't have to intervene at all.

There are some clips in colour which looked original rather then computer generated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFrAW4U9o18

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Silkyskills1 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:10 pm

'This is Your Life' is an intriguing one for me. Often heard of people who refused to be the subject and one in particular was footballer,Danny Blanchflower, allegedly. Never had confirmation on this one way or t'other.
Also my older brother always maintains that Bobby Charlton refused to appear on 'Double Your Money' due to the claustrophobic nature of the 'question box' in the wake of the Munich disaster. Again never been confirmed either way.

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Claret1205 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:47 pm

I think you've slightly misread the synopsis Rowls.

The edition of Saturday Sport from 24/11/62 wouldn't feature another look at the Cup Final but rather the league game at Turf Moor that day against Tottenham.

Before my time but I'm pleased to report it had a better outcome than the Cup Final, a 2-1 win.

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Turfy Topper » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:50 pm

Every edition of match of the day still exists.

Rowls
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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Rowls » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:08 pm

Claret1205 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:47 pm
I think you've slightly misread the synopsis Rowls.

The edition of Saturday Sport from 24/11/62 wouldn't feature another look at the Cup Final but rather the league game at Turf Moor that day against Tottenham.

Before my time but I'm pleased to report it had a better outcome than the Cup Final, a 2-1 win.
Ahh hahahha ahaha I dooooo believe you're right!

In my defence, it's hot and I hadn't eaten much. :lol:

Rowls
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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Rowls » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:08 pm

Would be great to see the footage.

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:12 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:50 pm
We could be looking at years, sadly.

These rumours of found episode have been circulating amongst the Dr Who nerds for almost a decade now. Finds such as this film indicative they *might* be true, but equally they might be wild exaggerations.

Fingers crossed we get to see the programme at some point. Be great if it had better footage of the "penalty" or, for example, an interivew with Harry Potts, Jimmy Adamson or somebody else.
There’s been an awful lot of false rumours in the Dr Who world.

Rowls
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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Rowls » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:16 pm

martin_p wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:12 pm
There’s been an awful lot of false rumours in the Dr Who world.
Yes but there's a lot that haven't been disproven either way too. It's a case of wait and see but when films like this turn up, you never know...

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:20 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:16 pm
Yes but there's a lot that haven't been disproven either way too. It's a case of wait and see but when films like this turn up, you never know...
Something turns up about once every 15 years I guess, we’re not due another for a few years yet :D

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Royboyclaret » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:40 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:08 pm
Would be great to see the footage.
A game that stays firmly in the memory bank, the first time we'd played them since the Final and a lot riding on the outcome at the Turf. Tottenham had their best side out but we were superior on the day and won 2-1 with classic goals from John Connelly and Ray Pointer. Plenty of pride restored that day.

Rowls
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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by Rowls » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:44 pm

martin_p wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:20 pm
Something turns up about once every 15 years I guess, we’re not due another for a few years yet :D
Fingers crossed. There's said to be half a douzen in private hands too. Best to take info with a pinch of salt but the info is coming from the less whacky elements of "fandom".

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Re: A New Look at the 1962 Cup Final?

Post by mdd2 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:46 pm

More so Royboy with the 3rd round victory 3-0 at WHL in 1963. I would have taken a thrashing that day for FA Cup wins in 61 and 62

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