the art of defence in football

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gandhisflipflop
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the art of defence in football

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:19 pm

There was a time 15 or so years ago that the game was graced by amazing defenders and great goalkeepers. Guardiola came along and advocated playing out from the back which influenced a lot of sides and it was at the time a breath of fresh air. My question though is has it gone too far? We gave reached a point where a goalkeepers ability to pass a ball is brought into an equation when judging his ability to do the basics as a goalkeeper and in some cases a goalkeepers ability to distribute well masks basic weaknesses that can cost teams games. It's the same for defenders. A defenders ability to pass a ball can project a center backs career further even if he does the basics worse. We can see examples of this when we judge Keane/mee/ tarks as England international defenders. The same argument is why pope isn't head and shoulders above any England goalkeeper out there (because his distribution is questionable)

I'm sorry but I want my centre backs to keep the ball away from goal and my goalkeepers to primarily save the bloody football.

The question is has this all gone too far with regards to passing football?
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Rileybobs
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:24 pm

No. If your team doesn’t have centre forwards who are effective at dealing with the long ball then why would you want a goalkeeper or centre backs who are unable to accurately and effectively pass the football?

Obviously everyone wants their defenders and goalkeepers to prevent goals, and they all do - it’s not a case of either/or. Pickford has been a good shot stopper who’s distribution has been an asset. He wasn’t picked for England purely because he was deemed good at passing the ball. His form this season has dropped dramatically and I would expect him to lose his place as a result.
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Chester Perry
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:24 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:19 pm
There was a time 15 or so years ago that the game was graced by amazing defenders and great goalkeepers. Guardiola came along and advocated playing out from the back which influenced a lot of sides and it was at the time a breath of fresh air. My question though is has it gone too far? We gave reached a point where a goalkeepers ability to pass a ball is brought into an equation when judging his ability to do the basics as a goalkeeper and in some cases a goalkeepers ability to distribute well masks basic weaknesses that can cost teams games. It's the same for defenders. A defenders ability to pass a ball can project a center backs career further even if he does the basics worse. We can see examples of this when we judge Keane/mee/ tarks as England international defenders. The same argument is why pope isn't head and shoulders above any England goalkeeper out there (because his distribution is questionable)

I'm sorry but I want my centre backs to keep the ball away from goal and my goalkeepers to primarily save the bloody football.

The question is has this all gone too far with regards to passing football?
That Barcelona team had an excellent central defender in Puyol and at City he benefitted from Kompany - he didn't buy either though

conyoviejo
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by conyoviejo » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:30 pm

I'm sure Pope could play out from the back if given the chance. It's just not the Burnley way of doing things.

Rileybobs
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:35 pm

conyoviejo wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:30 pm
I'm sure Pope could play out from the back if given the chance. It's just not the Burnley way of doing things.
Maybe he could - but he’s not comfortable with his feet. He generally kicks the ball first time which suggests he doesn’t trust his touch. Don’t get me wrong - he should have the England shirt on current form, but there’s no point glossing over his obvious weakness.

IanMcL
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by IanMcL » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:36 pm

Yes

The theory is good. The risks, often too great.

Pass yes but not all the time. The rhythm gets sussed and you are doomed.

Spijed
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Spijed » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:38 pm

When people start to get giddy about England's prospects of winning a major tournament they need to realise that we'll have to score plenty of goals to win anything as we aren't going to be keeping clean sheets anytime soon with Maguire, Gomez & Pickford in defence.

gandhisflipflop
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:37 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:24 pm
That Barcelona team had an excellent central defender in Puyol and at City he benefitted from Kompany - he didn't buy either though
2 players that were old school defenders. A breed that is dying out.

Vegas Claret
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:03 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:35 pm
Maybe he could - but he’s not comfortable with his feet. He generally kicks the ball first time which suggests he doesn’t trust his touch. Don’t get me wrong - he should have the England shirt on current form, but there’s no point glossing over his obvious weakness.
I think for the most part he has done well with his distribution recently, pinged a few nice passes yesterday. I've definitely seen an improvement since last season

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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:04 am

Puyol was hard as nails as well as being a good player !

GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:20 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:24 pm
That Barcelona team had an excellent central defender in Puyol and at City he benefitted from Kompany - he didn't buy either though
What's his record like at buying CB's?

It doesn't appear that good at City, was it better at Barca?

Vegas Claret
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:22 am

didn't really need defenders at Barcelona
Xavi, Iniesta, Busquests, Messi

you need to get the ball to attack, good luck with that lol

JohnMac
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by JohnMac » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:52 am

Pep has defended John Stones time and time again, no doubt to justify the £50m they paid for him.

Stones has repaid the faith shown in him by making outrageous cock ups trying to be a cultured footballer, time and time again.

The priority is to keep goal and defend.

Dyched
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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Dyched » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:10 am

Football evolves overtime.

GK/CH have different roles to play these days.

Take a forward. It’s like saying his job is to put the ball in the net and nothing else. LooK at Barnes here. He couldn’t play in Liverpools system and Firmino would struggle in ours. There’s different roles and different types of GK/CH. yes their main job is to defend, but if they can do much more, they’re far more effective.

If your a manger who wants to play the passing game, it’d be daft if your defenders can’t pass, or at least aren't comfortable. Mistakes will be made, but no more so than a team that thumps it in hope. The only difference is they may lose it in a more dangerous area.

Look at Arsenals goal on Saturday. That is why teams pass it out.

But you’re on a Burnley forum, you’ll get loads who like the more “manly” hit and hope method.

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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by NewClaret » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:19 am

I’m no football tactician, but my assumption was that City play like this to draw you forward and create space in behind/gaps in midfield that they then have the technical ability to exploit. Certainly not for us and I’m not sure I’d enjoy watching it even if we did have the quality. Far more appreciative of a towering headed clearance, which I’m sure many would say is uncultured.

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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by AlargeClaret » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:21 am

Pep brought Bravo in for “ his feet” and he was full of well feet errors . Klopp has Karius for erm his feet,The likes of De-gea again for his feet the list is endless . Pope very very rarely makes errors with his feet (though ironically he almost made a mess but recovered well vs Norwich ) sure the very occasional kick might go in the stand but you have the likes of Schmechael clearing constantly into the crowd . Pope’s feet have got better and he’s confident with his left now as well , sure he purposely takes a heavy touch but he’s good enough imo

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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Erasmus » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:59 am

It's a good tactic to mix it up. Earlier in the season at Brighton we were playing a lot of long balls up to the forwards and so the Brighton players were dropping deep to deal with that. But then we switched and played it from the back without any press from their forwards, worked it upfield and Hendrick scored. Do it both ways so the opposition is not sure what is coming. Norwich have suffered because they have an almost religious commitment to playing it from the back, like they did against us at the start of this season and lost two goals as a result.

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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Iloveyoubrady » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:01 am

I’m sure Pope can play simple balls into the centre backs. England don’t play out from the back like city, so Pope doesn’t need to be able to beat a man like Ederson. Pickford is hardly brilliant.

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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by Claretmatt4 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:05 am

For me the ideal central defence partnership should be a limited defender and a ball playing defender (to use football manager isms).

Your limited defender should be primarily good at tackling, marking, heading, blocking and should have good anticipation, positioning, bravery and awareness. Passing and ball control are not important.

Your ball player should be good at the above but also have the ability to control the ball and make good and Intelligent passes.

I think we have that pairing in Tarks an Mee. I think there are fewer better limkited defenders jn the Prem than Mee - mainly because no team uses them and the current fashion is ball players.

Complimentary skill sets are vital, too many teams just have the latter twice and are exposed.

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Re: the art of defence in football

Post by KateR » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:43 pm

I think England do try and play from the back and is the preferred option, hence why Pickford and Stones are picked, which leads to errors because it is a dangerous way to play but it's what they want. I would also say most top 6/8 managers want to play that way also, but not Burnley as we play how our manager wants us to play, rarely see us with 3 at the back because the players we have are suited to the tactic. Is the tactic chosen first or do the players he has mean we play the way we do tactically because they are best suited to that. When you don't have the cash to get the players to suit your preferred tactics it becomes easier than having to juggle players abilities against tactics, as you are forced to play a particular way.

Pope is the best English GK for me but I also recognize that no top 6/8 sides have come in for him, he is not the first name on the England team sheet and you can apply that to Mee & Tarks also, for good reason, we don't play the fashionable way but would say the players are not the best at playing that was so sometimes we compare apples and pears.

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