Ashley Westwood - The Times

[dushanbe]

So there is mitigation against violent conduct now is there?

[ClaretTony]

I don’t mind our players rolling around like they’ve been shot, it’s part of the game unfortunately.

And let me know when you see one because it did NOT happen at Norwich

[RalphCoatesComb]

Sounds like a Norwich fan with an axe to grind against SD.

Westwood made the bullet, this Tommy "the hack" Conlon, merely fired it

[TVC15]

Both definite reds.
Whether Westwood was hurt as much as he appeared I’m not so sure as it didn’t look a strong contact but he’s no track record of going down easily so give him the benefit of the doubt.
Second red card was a wreckless challenge - Pieters did nothing wrong and was lucky to not be seriously hurt.

Oh and btw Manchester United got their 19th penalty of the season last night - not sure we have had that many sins we were formed in 1888 !! To say that our players under Dyche are the same as everyone else is just plain daft.

[Rileybobs]

It's a poor article by Tommy Colon, clearly has an axe to grind.

It did look like Westwood made a meal of the incident but only he will know that for sure. I took a blow to the back of the head when challenging for a header years ago and I've never experienced anything like it. I let out a yelp totally uncontrollably, a sharp pain shot through my nerves and my legs buckled when I hit the floor. I don't even think it was a particularly big blow to my head as I wasn't in much pain after, I just got hit in the sweet spot.

The problem is that we've got to a stage where referee's don't give decisions and the VAR doesn't review incidents unless players draw their attention to them. In essence that is all that Westwood did, he didn't exactly writhe around in faux agony. It's hard to have any sympathy for a player who cowardly elbowed another player in the head, no matter how slight the contact was.

[Bosscat]

A few games ago Josh Brownhill was clothes-lined by a flailing elbow and got nowt.... (I think it was in the Palace game)

The Narch player knew what he was doing, and even Dion Dublin said it ...

He starts the move with open hand, makes a fist and pushes his elbow into Westy, then when bringing it away opens his fist to an open hand again.

Blatant elbow in the back of the head ... its a RED CARD end of thread....

Yes Westy made a meal of it but I have no problem with that ..... having watched Manure, Citeh, Arsenil, Chelski etc etc etc go down clutching a chin or their face where no contact has been made.

Westy was elbowed in the neck and went down holding the said part of his body hit by the elbow...
Nuff said.

[Rileybobs]

A few games ago Josh Brownhill was clothes-lined by a flailing elbow and got nowt.... (I think it was in the Palace game)

The Narch player knew what he was doing, and even Dion Dublin said it ...

He starts the move with open hand, makes a fist and pushes his elbow into Westy, then when bringing it away opens his fist to an open hand again.

Blatant elbow in the back of the head ... its a RED CARD end of thread....

Yes Westy made a meal of it but I have no problem with that ..... having watched Manure, Citeh, Arsenil, Chelski etc etc etc go down clucthing a chin or their face when no contact has been made.

Westy was elbowed in the neck and went down holding the said part of his body hit by the elbow...
Nuff said.

I still can't believe Ayew didn't see red for that assault.

[Burtonwoodclaret]

Maybe AW was over reacting as most players tend to do, but the reality was Buendia did elbow him in the neck and it was that rather than Aw's reaction that got him the red card. At this stage of the season I'm sure Burnley would rather have continued to compete against 11 and not 10 or later 9. That changed the game into one that pulled us away from our usual game plan. I actually think we could have score more goals in the second half if Norwich had been drawn out to face our almost impregnable defence and left us opportunities to counter.

[cblantfanclub]

Once a deliberate blow strikes Westy's head it's a red card.
How Westy reacts is a different "phase" and has no relevance to the offence that has already been commited.
That journalist is an idiot Westy could have rolled around for half an hour and it wouldn't make any difference a clear blow had already been struck. Suggest the journalist owes Westy an apology.I'd be concerned if there had been no contact ,obviously, and Erasmus is is on a windup.

[FCBurnley]

Conlan is described as an Indie Liberal what ever that is and is based in Ireland. Judging by a number of his other articles he is an Irish Liverpool fan. That might explain his vitriol right there. Here’s a tip for Buendía. If you want to avoid a red card then don’t elbow an opposing player on the back of neck !!!

[mdd2]

I agree it was a red but I just wish AW had not made a meal of it and in my mind he clearly did-either that or his reflexes are failing him given the delay between the hit and the fall

[FactualFrank]

I can only assume he's written this to spark debate. Nobody can be that thick in the head.

[JarrowClaret]

There is a huge misconception with what Sean Dyche says about this his big bug bear is when there is NO contact and the player goes down feigning injury. He has always said if there is contact he has no issue with players going down and buying a free kick or whatever I’m sure he says that is part of the game. I haven’t seen either incident so can’t comment but I think the Norwich Manager admitting both are red should be enough.

[jtv]

I do not think that the VAR decision was based on the number of times the journo said that Westwood rolled over (I did not notice him rolling over), but on the type of contact. Buendia clenching his fist, as others have said, proves that it was deliberate.

[ClaretTony]

I agree it was a red but I just wish AW had not made a meal of it and in my mind he clearly did

And I'll continue to disagree with you on that - no meal at all for me, getting a blow on the back of the neck I would think will force most people down.

[SalisburyClaret]

The Times failed to mention that Westwood is joint 4th in the Assists By English players table this season (with McNeil) - so he cant spend too much time rolling around on the deck

[fatboy47]

Red top levels of journalism there.

Times has gone downhill.

[Woonderbah]

The contact was compounded by Ashley's head moving up and the elbow coming down. The Norwich player knew what he was doing.
VAR looked at the incident in detail.
The referee looked at the monitor.
Pundits thought it was a sending off.
They all agreed it was a sending off.

[IanMcL]

There are too many comments about Westwood making the most/feigning etc.

Any blow behind the ear, can produce unfathomable reactions - by the body - not the person. Any clump will hurt, much more than a blow in front. The way Westwood went down, suggests he was caught in such a way, where he had no control over how he reacted. If you do have control, as you mostly may, then there would be a different reaction, from an immediate hand to head, to a hand moving to head and a fall.

Westwood shows no sign of a contrived action. Only an uncontrolled felling.

When he got up, he rubbed his head, to emphasise that it may not have looked much but that hurt!

Clear sending off, without any feigning. Would it have hurt? Yes! How much? Ask Westwood.

[THEWELLERNUT70]

Why did this pillock feel the need to say "English midfielder". That should tell you all you need to know regarding the bias of that tripe.

As for Westwood regardless of his theatrics its still a sending off, you make a fist and strike an opponent on the head its a red card.

Perhaps Westwood had in the back of mind the Brownhill incident at West Ham, another incident that was a definite red, which unbelievably their player got away with

[Erasmus]

Not on a wind up at all. By the current rules it is a red card but that doesn't excuse Westwood for exaggerating the extent of the injury. I played amateur football for thirty years and got a good number of blows to the head, but never once had the need to lie writhing on the ground.

I dislike dishonesty in all walks of life, whether it's politicians, lawyers, journalists etc, and in my view what Westwood did was a dishonest act of simulating the extent of the blow he had suffered. Every time I see players doing this, making out they've been badly hurt when it's just a little bit of contact, I get more disenchanted with modern football where cheating has become taken for granted. My little lad has a picture of Westwood stuck on his wall, and I want him to look up to people who show honesty and integrity.

A few months ago, I was watching a film of Burnley versus Manchester United from the 1960s and one thing you notice hardly anyone ever gets hurt. No screeches, no writhing, no banging on the ground in agony. Just get a bit of a bump, get up and get on with it. I like to think that Burnley are cut above the rest of the Premier League and that's why I'm so pleased when Sean Dyche speaks out against dishonesty in the game.

That faith was a bit dented on Saturday. Perhaps I'm just old and don't understand modern football, but the acceptance of professional dishonesty disgusts me as it would in any walk of life.

[harpers_perm]

Of course he made a meal of it, if someone is stupid enough to put an elbow in your head then you'll take advantage.

Barnes does it every game, slight nudge in the back then on the floor on is backside with his hands up winning us another free kick, we all laugh at it as it's so blatant.

Its 2020, not 1957. Every team does it because that's the game these days unfortunate or not.

[Woonderbah]

Not on a wind up at all. By the current rules it is a red card but that doesn't excuse Westwood for exaggerating the extent of the injury. I played amateur football for thirty years and got a good number of blows to the head, but never once had the need to lie writhing on the ground.

I dislike dishonesty in all walks of life, whether it's politicians, lawyers, journalists etc, and in my view what Westwood did was a dishonest act of simulating the extent of the blow he had suffered. Every time I see players doing this, making out they've been badly hurt when it's just a little bit of contact, I get more disenchanted with modern football where cheating has become taken for granted. My little lad has a picture of Westwood stuck on his wall, and I want him to look up to people who show honesty and integrity.

A few months ago, I was watching a film of Burnley versus Manchester United from the 1960s and one thing you notice hardly anyone ever gets hurt. No screeches, no writhing, no banging on the ground in agony. Just get a bit of a bump, get up and get on with it. I like to think that Burnley are cut above the rest of the Premier League and that's why I'm so pleased when Sean Dyche speaks out against dishonesty in the game.

That faith was a bit dented on Saturday. Perhaps I'm just old and don't understand modern football, but the acceptance of professional dishonesty disgusts me as it would in any walk of life.

In those days I think it was more important that a player on the receiving end of a bad tackle or elbow didn't want the offending player to see that it hurt.
Shrug it off with a "you'll need to do it harder than that pal".

On a tangent, and I'm not referring to Westwood here, if managers always say it's harder to play against 10 or 9 men, why encourage their players to try and get an opponent sent off ?

[jrgbfc]

I can just imagine the reaction on here if say, an Arsenal player went down the way Westwood did. They'd be getting laughed at and called a cheat etc etc.

[ElectroClaret]

Usually in these cases, the opposing manager screams blue murder that the decision was wrong and often uses the incident as a reason his team lost.
So I think its telling that Daniel Farke himself said it was a red.

[Woonderbah]

I can just imagine the reaction on here if say, an Arsenal player went down the way Westwood did. They'd be getting laughed at and called a cheat etc etc.

But I would expect that from an Arsenal player.
I would be more annoyed with Westwood for losing it and creating a situation where VAR or the ref considered a red card.

[LeadBelly]

Nobody other than Westwood will know if he "overplayed" it. He certainly got a sharpish blow on the back of his head from a direction he wasn't looking so it would've been a shock/some measure pain. I dare say he wouldve stayed on his feet after such a blow in a bar-fight but he's on a football field and opposition players shouldn't be doing that.
I cant see that Pieters exaggerated his incident. He's got a 6 ft, 11 stone+ guy lunging towards him with studs up on the leading leg and the trailing leg also extended. You'd be mental to keep your studs in the turf with that happening so he jumps and the players momentum topples him over. The contact, thankfully, wasnt sufficient to seriously injure him but must've been a fair bit painful initially.

No question both were reds in any case and I don't think Norwich are arguing otherwise.

[ClaretTony]

I can just imagine the reaction on here if say, an Arsenal player went down the way Westwood did. They'd be getting laughed at and called a cheat etc etc.

How do you want him to go down after a blow to the back of the neck?

[FCBurnley]

We often talk on here about some of our good signings. Not sure any have been better than Westwood ? Don’t know what we paid but don’t think it was a lot. He has become a very very good PL player. Don’t be surprised if he moves to a bigger club. Not saying I know something. I just think bigger clubs must be looking at him

[Claret]

I agree that both cards were red but also agree with the sentiment of The Times piece.

Westwood played a big part in the incident exactly as described. Pieters too over reacted like a typical Premier League player. Wood tripped over his own feet and claimed a penalty and Brady decided to dive in the penalty area but completely misjudged Krul's approach which made Brady look a prat. If he had concentrated instead on controlling the ball and trying to do something positive we might have benefited.

Despite all Dyche's comments on the subject of cheating we are actually no better then any other club.

I'm wondering if he's changed his views on the matter and become like all the rest.

As the article says, 'it is an abiding plague on the game, this particular brand of cynicism, and there is seemingly no desire to find a cure'.

You can say what you like about other players but Wood is NOT one for diving or play acting.

For what it’s worth, the Norwich defender did clip Wood’s trailing foot - just enough to knock it sideways into his other leg. If a penalty had been awarded I’d have said it would have been a very soft one, though.

To repeat: Wood never cheats.

[boyyanno]

And let me know when you see one because it did NOT happen at Norwich

Hate to disagree with you but we are as guilty as anyone else when you remove the Claret Tinted specs. Tarks went down near the touchline under absolutely no contact earlier on in the game. The two reds were definitely justified but i'm not having it that we don't go down softly on occasion.

[Bosscat]

Why did this pillock feel the need to say "English midfielder". That should tell you all you need to know regarding the bias of that tripe.

As for Westwood regardless of his theatrics its still a sending off, you make a fist and strike an opponent on the head its a red card.

Perhaps Westwood had in the back of mind the Brownhill incident at West Ham, another incident that was a definite red, which unbelievably their player got away with

Wasn`t it Ayew at Palace that clotheslined Josh

Ayew1.jpg (35.89 KiB) Viewed 2416 times

[ClaretTony]

Hate to disagree with you but we are as guilty as anyone else when you remove the Claret Tinted specs. Tarks went down near the touchline under absolutely no contact earlier on in the game. The two reds were definitely justified but i'm not having it that we don't go down softly on occasion.

No claret tinted specs. I’ve gone back and watched them several times and can’t agree in any way that we went down too easily.

[ClaretTony]

Wasn`t it Ayew at Palace that clotheslined Josh

It was. How on earth that wasn’t a red card I’ll never know. Much easier to stay on your feet though when hit like that rather than the back of your neck.

[boyyanno]

If you are referring to the two red cards then I agree with you, they were justified. But i do think we are equally as guilty as other sides for employing the "dark arts". Like I said Tarks went down under no contact right in front of Dyche and they were all asking for a penalty when Wood tripped himself in the box.

[SalisburyClaret]

Why did this pillock feel the need to say "English midfielder". That should tell you all you need to know regarding the bias of that tripe.

The journalist is Irish

[ClaretTony]

If you are referring to the two red cards then I agree with you, they were justified. But i do think we are equally as guilty as other sides for employing the "dark arts". Like I said Tarks went down under no contact right in front of Dyche and they were all asking for a penalty when Wood tripped himself in the box.

Wasn’t the Tarky one against Wolves?

Don’t recall Wood asking for a pen at all. I recall the incident but don’t think he was looking for a pen at all.

[Bosscat]

Wood never called for a Pen he just raised his arms in disgust at tripping himself up but...

[Corky]

Erasmus being philosophical.

"I played amateur football for thirty years and got a good number of blows to the head"

And can't we just tell.

[Sproggy]

If Ashley Westwood feels an elbow in the back of his head and makes sure the ref knows about it, I don't have problem with it. I'd rather he didn't have to exaggerate it and I think our manager is right to point out how soft the game is becoming but nothing is going to change if we play to a different set of rules to everyone else.

These empty stadia have shown that it's not only flinging yourself to the floor that increases your chances of getting a free kick, it's how loud you squeal at the same time. Some of the noises these grown met have been emitting after slight contact have been pitiful.

And whilst the media support it, refs buy it, pundits encourage it ("there was contact, he was entitled..."), the rules favour it and VAR backs them all up we may as well just get on with it.

Change won't happen from Burnley upwards. It has to come from those governing the game and flow downwards. On its current trajectory, football will eventually become half sport, half theatre and at some point before then I'll go and watch something else. Until then, when Ashley Barnes falls over, it was definitely a blatant push by the defender. And that elbow on Westwood was almost an assault.

[Colburn_Claret]

I agree it was a red but I just wish AW had not made a meal of it and in my mind he clearly did-either that or his reflexes are failing him given the delay between the hit and the fall

You're obviously not a boxing fan then

[Hipper]

I love the way some of our fans on here are twisting through hoops trying to explain when our players do stuff that we condemn in our opponents.

It also seems hypocritical when players promote moral codes - Black Lives Matter - when they clearly have no morals regarding their profession.

[ClaretTony]

I love the way some of our fans on here are twisting through hoops trying to explain when our players do stuff that we condemn in our opponents.

It also seems hypocritical when players promote moral codes - Black Lives Matter - when they clearly have no morals regarding their profession.

Our fans are twisting nothing. The problem is that you’ve believed that garbage in the article rather than examine what actually happened.

None of our players have done anything they shouldn’t and to suggest they might not have morals regarding their profession I think is downright insulting.

[Hipper]

Our fans are twisting nothing. The problem is that you’ve believed that garbage in the article rather than examine what actually happened.

None of our players have done anything they shouldn’t and to suggest they might not have morals regarding their profession I think is downright insulting.

I simply watched the game and made my own mind up.

[ClaretTony]

I simply watched the game and made my own mind up.

Then you must be as daft as the bloke writing in the Times if you believe that garbage.

[superdimitri]

I'm happy he reacted the way he did. My own view is it was clear dramatics but I see that as a good thing.

We won't change the rules by playing the nice guys. If that was possible they would have already been changed. Dyche has been vocal about it and raised it at meetings several times and it's clear there's no interest to change it. No surprise really when a collective effort would be needed for change. No other managers will want it to change when they already know how many points it wins them, especially the top clubs with the best divers.

Let's not be naive when we're already have an unfair disadvantage against many sides who are able to outspend us tenfold.

For me it's a coming of maturity from Westwood and showed he's a true premier league midfielder.

In our first premier league season under Dyche we were wet between the ears and missed out on blatant decisions because we didn't make the most of them. At the same time we were up against some of the best cheating in the world and it cost us so many times.

If there's a change to be made against cheating in the game let the big clubs who do it more often take action first. If anything is ever changed in the laws of the game we should follow but until that happens you know the other way round exactly the same thing would have happened against us.

You have to take your chances. Even if it's the chance to get someone sent off.

So yeah, clear cheating in my view. No surprise that Westwood and Barnes are best mates because his reaction was Barnes 101. I'm sure Barnes would have text him right after the game with some good words.

[Down_Rover]

This article could be written a dozen times a weekend about world class players from the big six, but instead it's about the one time a Burnley player does it.

I'm not one for all this media hate us spiel, but it's borderline transparent now.

Absolutely spot on. Perhaps Ash was just copying what those who win trophies do.

Man Utd 13 penalties? now that's worth a news article.

And is Ash should apologise what should Buendia say? His manager said he deserved it

[Vegas Claret]

and just think, that guy gets paid to go to watch and write about football matches. Think I'll apply to become a Pilot

[BenWickes]

So VAR, the referee and assistant's all agree they're red cards. CHECK!
Referee does what fans having been crying out for and goes to the pitch side monitor. CHECK!
Pundits (including two former Norwich players), commentator's all agree they're red cards. CHECK!

Clearly the Premier League need to be alerted. We have stumbled on the answer to all their problems. Some posters on 'Up the Clarets' are clearly far better informed and educated on all things related to officiating. Some even seem to have qualified overnight as medics and become experts on how the human body reacts in any given circumstances of stress or pressure. This crack squad of experts should be gathered post haste.

[FCBurnley]

One thing we as a club have learned during our prolonged stay in the PL is experience. Running the clock down when winning. Making sure the ref knows we’ve been fouled. Time wasting as required etc. It’s all part of professional football and it has taken some time for us to learn. I bet SD gave our midfield a massive bollocking after the Wolves game for not fouling Traore in midfield when we had 4 players round him. We let him go and it cost us but these days with Burnley that was the exception and not the rule. Watch the top teams. They commit more fouls in the other teams defensive half to stop breakaways than anybody. It’s called being professional. Glad we are learning the tricks of trade. Puts us on a level playing field. If Westy ignored the elbow then I doubt it would have been a red card and who knows what the result might have been. No criticism about our tactics from me. For those who don’t like it I am sure Rovers would welcome your support. I am 100% with CT on this one