Russia Report

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elwaclaret
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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:43 pm

Listening to Radio four.... the attitude to is it is exactly.... eh? Nothing that was not already largely known and the expert in Russian affairs, made it quite clear it was a large report that summed up to k’all.... there is nothing that will even Surprise the Kremlin. And the attitude... Russia just laughs at the excitement that reports like this, there view our incompetence in ever finding anything, but seeing opposition making out it’s a smoking gun against our Government they find HILARIOUS... it’s a peace of **** to rock the British politically.... they don’t actually need to do anything, just let us think they are.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Spiral » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:50 pm

Lots of traitors on this thread with their wishy-washy downplaying of our defeat in battle. This is a strategic victory for Russia, make no mistake. Politics is so corrupted that our leaders aren't willing to lift a finger to defend us, and the plebs are too parochial, ignorant and afraid to even attempt to disassociate their party/policy loyalty from their very sense of nationality. Just remember that when you were calling gay judges 'enemies of the people', you were letting the real enemy in.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:55 pm

Spiral wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:50 pm
Lots of traitors on this thread with their wishy-washy downplaying of our defeat in battle. This is a strategic victory for Russia, make no mistake. Politics is so corrupted that our leaders aren't willing to lift a finger to defend us, and the plebs are too parochial, ignorant and afraid to even attempt to disassociate their party/policy loyalty from their very sense of nationality. Just remember that when you were calling gay judges 'enemies of the people', you were letting the real enemy in.
Agree in so much as this is another victory for Russia... no idea what the reference to gay judges is... but perhaps just as well. They even said it was not their remit to find specifics... so what were they reporting on?

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Spiral » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:17 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:55 pm
Agree in so much as this is another victory for Russia... no idea what the reference to gay judges is... but perhaps just as well. They even said it was not their remit to find specifics... so what were they reporting on?
On reporting the High Court ruling upholding the supremacy of parliament during the time when May was attempting to use Royal prerogative to implement brexit over and above the head of parliament, the Daily Mail ran a quite chilling front page in which the judges presiding the case were profiled - named and shamed, so to speak - under the headline 'enemies of the people' (if I recall correctly) including a bizarre dog whistle about the sexuality of one of the judges. The implications of allowing the abuse of Royal prerogative to go unchecked are quite blatantly obvious and for this reason it's right that the supremacy of parliament was upheld, but the propagandists had by that point already set in motion the idea that the establishment in the truest sense of the word is some sort of fifth column.

This isn't an attempt to relitigate brexit, by the way. What this episode and some of the responses in this thread do show however is that some people will allow party loyalty or policy to become the prism through which reality is observed. This is a corruption of one's own ability to think critically, which can affect one's ability to recognise danger and accept obvious truths.
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Re: Russia Report

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:32 pm

Damo wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:42 pm
Its funny watching remoaners stamp their feet over brexit again.
Was "russian interference" the final conspiracy theory, on how they got public sentiment so wrong, or do we have some other debunking reports to look forward to?
It’s nothing to do with Brexit. The referendum is just one of the alleged instances there was interference.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Spiral » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:40 pm

Evidence submitted to the ISC from former MI6 agent and Russia specialist, Christopher Steel, has been published with the approval of the ISC. Bold for emphasis below.
My understanding, arising partly from personal experience with the ‘Trump-Russia dossier’, is that this government perhaps more than its predecessors is reluctant to see (or act upon) intelligence on Russian activities when this presents difficult wider political implications. Examples of this include reporting on the Kremlin’s likely hold over president Trump and his family/administration and indications of Russian interference in and clandestine funding of the Brexit referendum. In the case of the so-called ‘dossier’, this was initially handled appropriately by senior British intelligence professionals but, on reaching top political decision makers, a blanket appeared to be thrown over it and those who had produced or were associated with it. No enquiries were made or actions taken thereafter on the substance of the intelligence in the dossier by HMG. In this case, political considerations seemed to outweigh national security interests. If so, in my view, HMG made a serious mistake in balancing matters of strategic importance to our country. A prospective trade deal should never be allowed to eclipse considerations of national security.
https://orbisbi.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... y-2018.pdf

Expediting the geopolitical element of brexit policy (this pie-in-the-sky US trade deal) was seen as taking precedence over our own national security. A course of complete inaction, as it were, on matters of security was taken in order to maintain calmer political waters for the govt. Geopolitics is complicated and delicately balanced, but not so perilously that a govt should be afraid to order its own security forces to investigate an attack on the country.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:59 pm

Not arguing with you Spiral. I think the bloody lot of them are corrupt... I don’t care what colour rose they chose. As BC once pointed out.. wanting to be an MP should automatically rule you out from standing in elections.

We are no cleaner than the Russians...

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Gordaleman » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:20 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:10 pm
You’re not getting the point here. The report comments on the government and security service reaction to the alleged interference. If we’re doing it to them (although I suspect Russians interfere in their own democratic process far more than any other government could hope to) then let them decide how to deal with it. But the point is we don’t even seem interested in finding out if it’s happening and stopping it, seemingly for political reasons.
I understand what you are saying and it begs the question "Why aren't the Tories interested in finding out?" I think the simple answer is that it would upset their Russian Oligarc donars.

Politics is a dirty game, always has been, always will be. Huawei has far superior technology to American companies, so because Trump want jobs for America to get him re-elected, he has started this massive scare story about Huawei and now Tik Tok. (And basically forced other western countries to boycott them as well.) The truth (Whatever it is.) really doesn't matter if Trump saves his job. That's the type of Demagod he thinks he is.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Spiral » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:24 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:59 pm
Not arguing with you Spiral. I think the bloody lot of them are corrupt... I don’t care what colour rose they chose. As BC once pointed out.. wanting to be an MP should automatically rule you out from standing in elections.

We are no cleaner than the Russians...
Not arguing with you, elwa. One of the tenets of disinformation campaigns and psychological warfare when attacking democracy itself is engendering and amplifying cynicism. I'm sorry to say but your belief that 'they're all the same' and 'we're no better' is not an original thought. You picked it up somewhere from the pool of public discourse. It's a false equivalence which is amplified in order to produce the outcome you've demonstrated: you stop believing in the power of your own voice, you question your own country, and you don't so much retreat from a firm, unified position upon which a country can agree, but rather propaganda has been used to undermine and eradicate a consensus position. In this case, the consensus ought to be: 'being attacked by a foreign country should be prevented by all means'. That consensus doesn't exist because swathes of folks have been conditioned by amped-up propaganda to distrust their fellow citizen. Cynicism leads to democratic vandalism. Before we know it, Sevastopol is going unwatched because there's no leadership, and there's no leadership because the country has elected corrupt chancers telling you what they think you want to hear.

There's a bit more discussion on it in this thread from May 2017 when the attack was first heavily reported

https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboa ... e+observer

Quite funny looking back at that thread, being met with an image of a man in a tinfoil hat. Well, here we are.
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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:36 pm

Spiral wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:24 pm
Not arguing with you, elwa. One of the tenets of disinformation campaigns and psychological warfare when attacking democracy itself is engendering and amplifying cynicism. I'm sorry to say but your belief that 'they're all the same' and 'we're no better' is not an original thought. You picked it up somewhere from the pool of public discourse. It's a false equivalence which is amplified in order to produce the outcome you've demonstrated: you stop believing in the power of your own voice, you question your own country, and you don't so much retreat from a firm, unified position upon which a country can agree, but rather propaganda has been used to undermine and eradicate a consensus position. In this case, the consensus ought to be: 'being attacked by a foreign country should be prevented by all means'. That consensus doesn't exist because swathes of folks have been conditioned by amped-up propaganda to distrust their fellow citizen. Cynicism leads to democratic vandalism. Before we know it, Sevastopol is going unwatched because there's no leadership, and there's no leadership because the country has elected corrupt chancers telling you what they think you want to hear.

There's a bit more discussion on it in this thread from May 2017 when the attack was first heavily reported

https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboa ... e+observer

Quite funny looking back at that thread, being met with an image of a man in a tinfoil hat. Well, here we are.
Exactly this.

From the report itself (quoted by CombatClaret on the second post of this thread) - “Russia may spread disinformation or seek to influence political events for a wide range of purposes... When people start to say ‘You don’t know what to believe’ or ‘They’re all as bad as each other’,the disinformers are winning."

The Russians want folk like elwa to say things like... “I think the bloody lot of them are corrupt... I don’t care what colour rose they chose.”

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:38 pm

My cynicism is based largely on historical evidence of just how little we actually know is going on.... nothing to do with Any current focus politically. They all play the same games to get power. Just give it a couple of years and watch the documentaries start appearing about JFK.... for just one example, now his private documents are being freed. What ‘we’ see occurring is quite often little to do with any reality we could ever be aware of..... another example was Wilson’s one man stand against the USA over Vietnam... no other politician could have kept us out... we relied too heavily on USA bankrolling....yet he is vilified to this day for not standing up to the USA ( a move that would have created a Greece like economic disaster)

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:47 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:38 pm
My cynicism is based largely on historical evidence of just how little we actually know is going on.... nothing to do with Any current focus politically. They all play the same games to get power. Just give it a couple of years and watch the documentaries start appearing about JFK.... for just one example, now his private documents are being freed. What ‘we’ see occurring is quite often little to do with any reality we could ever be aware of..... another example was Wilson’s one man stand against the USA over Vietnam... no other politician could have kept us out... we relied too heavily on USA bankrolling....yet he is vilified to this day for not standing up to the USA ( a move that would have created a Greece like economic disaster)
So you’ve already covered “they’re all as bad as each other”, and now you’re going for “you don’t know what to believe”.

The disinformers are winning - they’re playing you like a fiddle.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by ksrclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:47 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:20 pm
I understand what you are saying and it begs the question "Why aren't the Tories interested in finding out?" I think the simple answer is that it would upset their Russian Oligarc donars.

Politics is a dirty game, always has been, always will be. Huawei has far superior technology to American companies, so because Trump want jobs for America to get him re-elected, he has started this massive scare story about Huawei and now Tik Tok. (And basically forced other western countries to boycott them as well.) The truth (Whatever it is.) really doesn't matter if Trump saves his job. That's the type of Demagod he thinks he is.
Exactly this. Politics is totally filthy. Why anyone would take such a tribal view of it is beyond me.

People on this board talk about voting in a particular way making them a winner or a loser as though it’s some personal achievement that they have any semblance of say over. It’s as delusional as it is tragic.
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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:49 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:47 pm
So you’ve already covered “they’re all as bad as each other”, and now you’re going for “you don’t know what to believe”.

The disinformers are winning - they’re playing you like a fiddle.
No it’s called reserving judgement until the known facts are available.... you should try it.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Spiral » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:51 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:38 pm
My cynicism is based largely on historical evidence of just how little we actually know is going on.... nothing to do with Any current focus politically. They all play the same games to get power. Just give it a couple of years and watch the documentaries start appearing about JFK.... for just one example, now his private documents are being freed. What ‘we’ see occurring is quite often little to do with any reality we could ever be aware of..... another example was Wilson’s one man stand against the USA over Vietnam... no other politician could have kept us out... we relied too heavily on USA bankrolling....yet he is vilified to this day for not standing up to the USA ( a move that would have created a Greece like economic disaster)
Omniscience is not expected of you or me or any of us. The fact a lot of dark stuff happens isn't a valid excuse to retreat to conspiracy theory and false equivalence. The fact that the world is incomprehensibly complex is not justification for a level of cynicism so poisonous that you cease to participate in, or vandalise, democracy itself. Giving the 'establishment' a bloody nose? Well done, that's vandalism. You've been played by the useful idiots in this country whose rhetoric is amplified. Understand that Putin views the world in zero-sum terms. He believes what weakens or divides us, strengthens him.
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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:51 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:49 pm
No it’s called reserving judgement until the known facts are available.... you should try it.
If our govt had any intention of a) trying to find out the facts and b) sharing those facts with us plebs, then that might be a viable tactic.

In the real world, however....

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:52 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:47 pm
So you’ve already covered “they’re all as bad as each other”, and now you’re going for “you don’t know what to believe”.

The disinformers are winning - they’re playing you like a fiddle.

No it’s called waiting to see the known facts enough to grasp the best guess.... not assuming, you should try it.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:53 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:52 pm
No it’s called waiting to see the known facts enough to grasp the best guess.... not assuming, you should try it.
If our govt had any intention of a) trying to find out the facts and b) sharing those facts with us plebs, then that might be a viable tactic.

In the real world, however....

(is there an echo in here?)

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:55 pm

Sorry keep trying to reply but the posts are doubling, and then both disappearing... I am interested and not trying to be a smart arse, just this machine or the site playing up.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:59 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:53 pm
If our govt had any intention of a) trying to find out the facts and b) sharing those facts with us plebs, then that might be a viable tactic.

In the real world, however....

(is there an echo in here?)
Not arguing GReenmile, on the face of it it makes perfect sense to do so. The question is if you believe they are frightened of the truth being known... or frightened of what letting it all spew out does to our and other nations security, I suppose that is where your political slant comes in. For the most part I’m pretty a-political, but deeply interested.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:05 pm

One thing that does disappoint my lack of talk there is about renationalising to protect the country from the downturn, for example...this is a great opportunity to do it... I don’t care who does it... They get my vote.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:06 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:59 pm
Not arguing GReenmile, on the face of it it makes perfect sense to do so. The question is if you believe they are frightened of the truth being known... or frightened of what letting it all spew out does to our and other nations security, I suppose that is where your political slant comes in. For the most part I’m pretty a-political, but deeply interested.
I’m sure any specific findings which could affect our national security could be kept under wraps, so I’ll have to go with option a) - they’re frightened of the truth being known. Our current govt has always had an uneasy relationship with the truth, at best.

I should clarify - I’m not saying the Russians definitely interfered in the referendum; I’m just saying we should investigate whether they did or not, and the only reason the govt is refusing to do so (apart from the fear of upsetting their donors) is that they are worried about what such an investigation would uncover.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:08 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:06 pm
I’m sure any specific findings which could affect our national security could be kept under wraps, so I’ll have to go with option a) - they’re frightened of the truth being known. Our current govt has always had an uneasy relationship with the truth, at best.

I should clarify - I’m not saying the Russians definitely interfered in the referendum; I’m just saying we should investigate whether they did or not, and the only reason the govt is refusing to do so (apart from the fear of upsetting their donors) is that they are worried about what such an investigation would uncover.
... or it is better to keep covert ops, covert. We know the reports with fanfares... the world knows the reports with fanfares.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:12 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:08 pm
... or it is better to keep covert ops, covert. We know the reports with fanfares... the world knows the reports with fanfares.
If we (the demos) don’t have the right to know whether our democratic process has been interfered with, then we don’t really have a democracy, do we? We might as well just keep our election results covert (for “security reasons”) and let Johnson / Cummings just tell us that they’ve won again.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:15 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:12 pm
If we (the demos) don’t have the right to know whether our democratic process has been interfered with, then we don’t really have a democracy, do we? We might as well just keep our election results covert (for “security reasons”) and let Johnson / Cummings just tell us that they’ve won again.
So we should have no covert security? Remind me what happened to Ancient Greece?

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:20 pm

...or the October Revolution, if you prefer....

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:20 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:15 pm
So we should have no covert security? Remind me what happened to Ancient Greece?
What was it I said that you’ve interpreted as “we should have no covert security”.

Was Ancient Greece invaded by an army of straw men?

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Rileybobs » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:23 pm

It’s ironic who comes across as the most bitter, resentment-fuelled loser on these threads.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:30 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:20 pm
What was it I said that you’ve interpreted as “we should have no covert security”.

Was Ancient Greece invaded by an army of straw men?
You seem to drag me into an argument that I not willing to make. I am not a fan of Cummings at all, Johnson; I reserve judgement on because all I see is the buffoon ... same as you, unlike you I do not buy it. All that I am saying is... WE (myself included) do not know... if the truth is not made plain, then surely that is the failure of the opposition?

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:40 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:30 pm
You seem to drag me into an argument that I not willing to make. I am not a fan of Cummings at all, Johnson; I reserve judgement on because all I see is the buffoon ... same as you, unlike you I do not buy it. All that I am saying is... WE (myself included) do not know... if the truth is not made plain, then surely that is the failure of the opposition?
At least I’m not accusing you of making an argument that you haven’t made.

What I will accuse you of doing (again) is essentially saying “you don’t know what to believe” - something which the report itself explicitly states is one of the aims of the Russians.

I don’t believe the opposition has the power to ensure the truth is made plain (ie to order an investigation), though I’d be very happy to be corrected on that point if I’m wrong.

If the opposition does have the ability to ensure the truth is made plain, how do they go about achieving that? And if they don’t, why would you say it’s their failure if the truth doesn’t come out? (other than trying to push the narrative that “they’re all as bad as each other” - another of the Russians’ aims)

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:51 pm

The sole purpose of the opposition is to hold the Government to account. If they are questions that cannot be answered into the public conscious then they need asking through other channels. We do not get to hear, we vote In representatives... We do not NEED to know, MP’s need to... and will, they will rock the boat; but not enough that it might tip anything over... at least if they are half decent at their jobs. Tony Benn was a master at it, and remains one of my heroes btw.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Greenmile » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:54 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:51 pm
The sole purpose of the opposition is to hold the Government to account. If they are questions that cannot be answered into the public conscious then they need asking through other channels. We do not get to hear, we vote In representatives... We do not NEED to know, MP’s need to... and will, they will rock the boat; but not enough that it might tip anything over... at least if they are half decent at their jobs. Tony Benn was a master at it, and remains one of my heroes btw.
Can you be a bit more specific about exactly how the opposition can ensure that the truth comes out?

And also about why you don’t think the people need to know whether our democratic process has been interfered with by a hostile foreign power?

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Spiral » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:04 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:51 pm
The sole purpose of the opposition is to hold the Government to account. If they are questions that cannot be answered into the public conscious then they need asking through other channels. We do not get to hear, we vote In representatives... We do not NEED to know, MP’s need to... and will, they will rock the boat; but not enough that it might tip anything over... at least if they are half decent at their jobs. Tony Benn was a master at it, and remains one of my heroes btw.
The PM elects members to select committees, usually with a numerical advantage to the governing party, which are theoretically independent. However, happy to be corrected if wrong, the committee sits at the pleasure of the PM of the day. The security committee has only just resumed from one of, if not the longest breaks since its creation. This was a govt decision. The report's suppression was in the news cycle for a while during the GE campaign. It became a campaign issue and ran as a bit of an undercurrent. There's nothing the opp. can do beside put political pressure on the govt to release. Johnson was clearly having none of that during the GE campaign, for what are now obvious reasons, but folks rewarded him with a huge majority so ultimately the electorate is on the hook for that.

You wouldn't blame a murder victim not adequately opposing their murderer. Why would you want the buck passed to the opp. when the govt drops a clanger?
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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:13 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:54 pm
Can you be a bit more specific about exactly how the opposition can ensure that the truth comes out?

And also about why you don’t think the people need to know whether our democratic process has been interfered with by a hostile foreign power?
Sorry I was of the impression it was already openly acknowledged that Russia had just as they had in the USA ... just as the USA does and every other nation with power to wield... just as they always have. The only difference is the form not the fact.... there are no specifics.... no form, so no news. Without examples how are we further on with this report.... there is not even a spent cartridge in this... so are they all ignorant in bliss, or are they keeping known facts back for reasons of bigger investigations... feeling the world temperature.... gaining consensus behind closed doors. As for interference, show me a time in history where there was none?

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Spijed » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:15 pm

Just you watch if there is a terror attack in Moscow in the coming months....

The sickening hypocrisy of the UK government when it issues a statement "We stand shoulder to shoulder with our Russian friends...."

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:20 pm

Spijed wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:15 pm
Just you watch if there is a terror attack in Moscow in the coming months....

The sickening hypocrisy of the UK government when it issues a statement "We stand shoulder to shoulder with our Russian friends...."
Before long we may well be standing shoulder to shoulder with our Russian friends. We work closely with the Russians behind closed doors. Russia and Europe go back a long way as best of enemies... but we rarely end up fighting each other.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:21 pm

... and I’m going back a lot further than the Soviet Union.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:31 pm

Odd how it’s only the ‘democracy hating remoaners’ that seem to care about the integrity of our democratic process.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:40 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:31 pm
Odd how it’s only the ‘democracy hating remoaners’ that seem to care about the integrity of our democratic process.
Sorry, Martin to pull you up... if you can name one election in history that had ‘integrity’ I’ll be very impressed. There IS and NEVER was an election for anything worth thinking about that every nation in the world would not interfere with if they could. Russia does it, America does it, China and Russia both do... that is why I consider this none news. IT HAPPENED... just as it always did and will continue to do.

Russia is a useful ‘Bear’ to throw muck at.... it ALWAYS was. We were on the point of War with Russia from Peter the Greats time... funny we almost always end up MAJOR allies.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:43 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:40 pm
Sorry, Martin to pull you up... if you can name one election in history that had ‘integrity’ I’ll be very impressed. There IS and NEVER was an election for anything worth thinking about that every nation in the world would not interfere with if they could. Russia does it, America does it, China and Russia both do... that is why I consider this none news. IT HAPPENED... just as it always did and will continue to do.

Russia is a useful ‘Bear’ to throw muck at.... it ALWAYS was. We were on the point of War with Russia from Peter the Greats time... funny we almost always end up MAJOR allies.
There’s zero evidence to support that statement. What Russian interference was there in the 1979 election just to pick one off the top of my head.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:48 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:43 pm
There’s zero evidence to support that statement. What Russian interference was there in the 1979 election just to pick one off the top of my head.
Obviously I would need time to research individual elections to find specific examples. As for evidence to support that statement.... you are having a laugh with are you not. We have fought hated and worked closely with Russia throughout history. Every action, every Diplomatic meeting is done to influence, do you honestly think elections are any different?

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Re: Russia Report

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:52 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:48 pm
Obviously I would need time to research individual elections to find specific examples. As for evidence to support that statement.... you are having a laugh with are you not. We have fought hated and worked closely with Russia throughout history. Every action, every Diplomatic meeting is done to influence, do you honestly think elections are any different?
I look forward to the results of your research.

Russia has always spies on us but the specific concerns in the report are all cyber related, I’m interested in how you think the Russians could have interfered in an election in an analogue world.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:58 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:43 pm
There’s zero evidence to support that statement. What Russian interference was there in the 1979 election just to pick one off the top of my head.
Hi martin, I'm sure you've heard of the "cold war?" USSR on one side, USA, Western Europe (aka NATO) on the other side. The USSR was still "going strong" in 1979. It was only mid-80s that USSR and the East European bloc started to crumble. I'm sure there's lots of things you could research for all the elections from 1945 to 1979 that who show "interference" by "hostile" nations.

What we didn't have back then was "social media." No internet, no "fake news" in the way that we are used to today. But, that doesn't mean that there weren't the same "unfriendly" state actions and interests in one political outcome or another.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Bfcboyo » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:59 pm

I like Russia, Siberia was surprisingly accommodating.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:00 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:58 pm
Hi martin, I'm sure you've heard of the "cold war?" USSR on one side, USA, Western Europe (aka NATO) on the other side. The USSR was still "going strong" in 1979. It was only mid-80s that USSR and the East European bloc started to crumble. I'm sure there's lots of things you could research for all the elections from 1945 to 1979 that who show "interference" by "hostile" nations.

What we didn't have back then was "social media." No internet, no "fake news" in the way that we are used to today. But, that doesn't mean that there weren't the same "unfriendly" state actions and interests in one political outcome or another.
Again, if you can point to specific electoral interference that’d be useful (condescending tone copied from your good self).

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:03 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:52 pm
I look forward to the results of your research.

Russia has always spies on us but the specific concerns in the report are all cyber related, I’m interested in how you think the Russians could have interfered in an election in an analogue world.
Because you live in a world where reason and argument is not used to find compromise, only to apportion blame. People used to talk in meetings, use the mass media of the day.... William or Orange arrived with printing presses in part financed by his back the Pope, when he landed to end the Stuart reign. King Billy was less of a threat the Catholic Sun King....

It is nothing new.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:12 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:03 pm
Because you live in a world where reason and argument is not used to find compromise, only to apportion blame. People used to talk in meetings, use the mass media of the day.... William or Orange arrived with printing presses in part financed by his back the Pope, when he landed to end the Stuart reign. King Billy was less of a threat the Catholic Sun King....

It is nothing new.
No I live in a world where facts are used to make an argument, not guess work. A quick search on the internet only mentions the last ten years or so when looking at U.K. electoral interference.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:18 pm

I alright everything was clean... ok, and Barbara Castle Wasn’t stitched up by her own party, preventing her creating what would have been a modern Labour Party that the Tories would never have beaten? Is that enough on 79?

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Re: Russia Report

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:18 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:00 pm
Again, if you can point to specific electoral interference that’d be useful (condescending tone copied from your good self).
Hi martin, you mentioned Russia and 1979 general election. Was it "condescending" of me to mention that "Russia" didn't exist in 1979? The country was the USSR and it had "command and control" of several east european nations, including "East Germany."

I'll leave it at that, because I take it that you aren't really interested in understanding our past.

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Re: Russia Report

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:27 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:18 pm
Hi martin, you mentioned Russia and 1979 general election. Was it "condescending" of me to mention that "Russia" didn't exist in 1979? The country was the USSR and it had "command and control" of several east european nations, including "East Germany."

I'll leave it at that, because I take it that you aren't really interested in understanding our past.
Funny you pick me up on that mistake but give clarerhomer a pass on the earlier mistake of Russians being part of the Cold War. It’s almost like you’re playing the man not the ball (and you’re mistaken if you think Russia didn’t exist when it was part of the USSR anyway, if you want to understand the past).

Just for you I’ll rephrase the question. What interference was there from the USSR in the 1979 election?

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