Spijed wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:23 pm

So Smith doesn't get a say on all the signings?

That was the model I believe - which is very similar to Udinese/Watford - the Pozo's have been working that for well over 30 years and have done very well from it until recently at Watford. It is a well worn path in Europe.

Why would anyone think SD would contemplate joining Villa if it's obvious he wouldn't have complete control over the signings?

Director of football role makes perfect sense where clubs go through managers like they're going out of fashion. Without somebody in that role or its equivalent where does the consistency come from? Can't have each manager that rocks up for a year or two changing the ethos of the club/brand of football etc. It'd be a rebuilding job every time a chairman falls out and pots the next man.

Thats why Watford keep potting managers. The players don't fit the managers system, so they keep changing manager in the hope one will succeed.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:07 pm

Why would anyone think SD would contemplate joining Villa if it's obvious he wouldn't have complete control over the signings?

I don’t think managers have complete control of signings in the modern game anyway.

It's a strange one. Managers must go into these clubs fully aware that they don't have free rein and therefore aware their position is, at best; precarious. Even more so. Unless there's some sort of clause in a contract. The board. It can't be financially prudent to keep handing out compensation hand over fist in the hope they somehow stumble on the magic formula.
I much prefer our blueprint. A manager needs at least a year with HIS team and vision. I appreciate football is different to other industries but I wouldn't be happy taking a managers job knowing that, actually; other people are managing and I'm basically just a 'figurehead' and 'scapegoat'.

claptrappers_union wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:42 am

I don’t think managers have complete control of signings in the modern game anyway.

Not even SD?

Watford don’t have Managers they have first team coaches.

Dyche would be pulling his hair out when he opened his tool box and sees the tools his director of football as put in there.

Dyche will know that he more or less runs the shop on the playing side at Burnley, he wouldn't do that anywhere else at this level

The barmy world of football.

Villa have sacked their Sporting Director not Smith

BenWickes wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:53 am

It's a strange one. Managers must go into these clubs fully aware that they don't have free rein and therefore aware their position is, at best; precarious. Even more so. Unless there's some sort of clause in a contract. The board. It can't be financially prudent to keep handing out compensation hand over fist in the hope they somehow stumble on the magic formula.
I much prefer our blueprint. A manager needs at least a year with HIS team and vision. I appreciate football is different to other industries but I wouldn't be happy taking a managers job knowing that, actually; other people are managing and I'm basically just a 'figurehead' and 'scapegoat'.

The trouble with our model is that when the manager goes you can be in big trouble as it's hugely disruptive. Ferguson and Man Utd are probably the best example of this. If you have a Director of Football and Head Coach system then the "manager" is just another cog to fit in the system. Brentford for example have a very clear vision and it seems to be rewarding them.

Both models have their pros and cons but as football becomes more and more business like I suspect the Director of Football and Head Coach will come to dominate.

Burnley Ace wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:53 am

Watford don’t have Managers they have first team coaches.

Shouldn't that read "temporary first team coaches"

aggi wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:41 am

The trouble with our model is that when the manager goes you can be in big trouble as it's hugely disruptive. Ferguson and Man Utd are probably the best example of this. If you have a Director of Football and Head Coach system then the "manager" is just another cog to fit in the system. Brentford for example have a very clear vision and it seems to be rewarding them.

Both models have their pros and cons but as football becomes more and more business like I suspect the Director of Football and Head Coach will come to dominate.

That’s the biggest concern for us.

I don’t see much in the way of structure in place to help mitigate the impact of when Dyche does leave (hopefully that’s quite some time away).

I’d be wanting Dyche to have a say (perhaps he already has) in how we should be putting such a structure in place, without it removing the elements of control that he feels that the manager should have.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:02 am

That’s the biggest concern for us.

I don’t see much in the way of structure in place to help mitigate the impact of when Dyche does leave (hopefully that’s quite some time away).

I’d be wanting Dyche to have a say (perhaps he already has) in how we should be putting such a structure in place, without it removing the elements of control that he feels that the manager should have.

I think the installation of Rigg as Techincal Director is at least an attempt to remedy that.

I think when a manager becomes entwined with a club for so long, like Ferguson or Dyche, you can have all the structures you like in place, but it's going to be a difficult rebuild.

I wonder if there's a clause in Drinkwater's loan to now make the signing permanent.

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:19 am

I think the installation of Rigg as Techincal Director is at least an attempt to remedy that.

I think when a manager becomes entwined with a club for so long, like Ferguson or Dyche, you can have all the structures you like in place, but it's going to be a difficult rebuild.

Isn’t Rigg’s remit a scouting one as opposed to business continuity?

You’re right, it will be a difficult time, when we need to replace Dyche (and his back room team), I just hope that we do have things in place to at least lessen the impact.

Firthy wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:01 am

Shouldn't that read "temporary first team coaches"

the word might even be "transient"
/ˈtranzɪənt/
adjective
lasting only for a short time; impermanent.
"a transient Watford spell"

noun
1.
a person who is staying or working at Watford for a short time only.
2.
a momentary variation in current, voltage, or frequency. (or a momentary variation in the current Watford coach or manager).

JimmyRobbo wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:54 pm

Potential suitors for SD just get thinner and thinner.

It's not something I like. 'Our' Premier League is anything but 'ours'. It is now dominated by foreign owners, managers and players. It's become a mechanism to sell Sky subscriptions and that is who it primarily serves. The England football team and grassroots certainly don't appear to be the primary recipients of its success. Another argument for another thread on a different day.

Totally agree, but as long as people buy Sky and other similar broadcasters packages, it will only get worse. I'm convinced that SKY were probably involved in the PL bringing in VAR as well (To add to the drama.) and that's something else that has ruined football.

What's next? Well, I think that's clear and obvious. A full two mins drinks break in each half to facilitate advertising.

Bob Lord was right all those years ago when he said TV would ruin the game.

Bob Lord only suggested that because he thought they were not paying anywhere near its worth because of the loss of attendance. I'd say as a club we do quite well out of it now.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:02 am

That’s the biggest concern for us.

I don’t see much in the way of structure in place to help mitigate the impact of when Dyche does leave (hopefully that’s quite some time away).

I’d be wanting Dyche to have a say (perhaps he already has) in how we should be putting such a structure in place, without it removing the elements of control that he feels that the manager should have.

Isn't the youth team now separate in that SD has no control or say as to how that's run?

Wasn't that the problem when Eddie Howe was here and has now been rectified.

ewanrob wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:36 am

Bob Lord only suggested that because he thought they were not paying anywhere near its worth because of the loss of attendance. I'd say as a club we do quite well out of it now.

I really don't know how you can say that. When Bob Lord was around, almost anyone in the league could win the league. That's just not the case any more, except on a very odd occasion, i.e. Leicester and they only won it because all the top six were in transitition.

Yes, we might get a lot of money from TV but it's all relative. After all, the money that comes in, goes out just as quick in transfer fees, agents fees and wages. Do you see Burnley competing for the title in the near future? I don't. We did it all the time in Bob's day.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:16 pm

I really don't know how you can say that. When Bob Lord was around, almost anyone in the league could win the league. That's just not the case any more, except on a very odd occasion, i.e. Leicester and they only won it because all the top six were in transitition.

Yes, we might get a lot of money from TV but it's all relative. After all, the money that comes in, goes out just as quick in transfer fees, agents fees and wages. Do you see Burnley competing for the title in the near future? I don't. We did it all the time in Bob's day.

The big difference in those days though was the maximum wage. That's what made the real difference.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:16 pm

I really don't know how you can say that. When Bob Lord was around, almost anyone in the league could win the league. That's just not the case any more, except on a very odd occasion, i.e. Leicester and they only won it because all the top six were in transitition.

Yes, we might get a lot of money from TV but it's all relative. After all, the money that comes in, goes out just as quick in transfer fees, agents fees and wages. Do you see Burnley competing for the title in the near future? I don't. We did it all the time in Bob's day.

I posted this on the MMT thread earlier - it covers your point in great detail - The "When Sky Invented Football" podcast present a "Manifesto for English Football"

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/a ... 0486338652

Not sure your correct on anyone could win the league, the haves and have nots still existed then. I loved football in those days as young lad...but much prefer it now.

ewanrob wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:42 pm

Not sure your correct on anyone could win the league, the haves and have nots still existed then. I loved football in those days as young lad...but much prefer it now.

Fair enough, but I expect you are in the minority.... I used to be able to tell you the career paths of almost every player in the 1st and Second Division, subs included.... these days only Burnley retain my interest... I was saying the other night I could not even name of Man Utd’s starting eleven these days, I just don’t care, they are not going to be around long enough for it to matter to me.

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:39 pm

I posted this on the MMT thread earlier - it covers your point in great detail - The "When Sky Invented Football" podcast present a "Manifesto for English Football"

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/a ... 0486338652

Can't play it mate. I don't have iTunes.

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:16 pm

Can't play it mate. I don't have iTunes.

should play straight to your computer without itunes

there are these other options

https://pod.link/1494785197/episode/QnV ... 00NjQ2Mzc4

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:51 pm

should play straight to your computer without itunes

there are these other options

https://pod.link/1494785197/episode/QnV ... 00NjQ2Mzc4

Just listened to the whole half hour of that second link you gave me and found it fascinating, especially the political and economic stuff connected to investors in our clubs. (Wolves owners Fosun involved is HS2 contruction on the back of their ownership.) Certainly makes you think.

The best bit was near the end though. One of the contributers, John Nicholson I think was his name, talked about five subs and advertising during drinks breaks. He was clearly very annoyed at the direction of travel and made the point that football is OUR (The fans.) game, and if we don't like the changes, we can do something about it. (Social media does have it's uses.)

Gordaleman wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:02 pm

Just listened to the whole half hour of that second link you gave me and found it fascinating, especially the political and economic stuff connected to investors in our clubs. (Wolves owners Fosun involved is HS2 contruction on the back of their ownership.) Certainly makes you think.

The best bit was near the end though. One of the contributers, John Nicholson I think was his name, talked about five subs and advertising during drinks breaks. He was clearly very annoyed at the direction of travel and made the point that football is OUR (The fans.) game, and if we don't like the changes, we can do something about it. (Social media does have it's uses.)

posted a lot of John Nicholson articles on the MMT thread through it's lifetime - the podcast I intended to post though was this

https://pod.link/1494785197/episode/QnV ... 00NzQwNzAx

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:45 pm

posted a lot of John Nicholson articles on the MMT thread through it's lifetime - the podcast I intended to post though was this

https://pod.link/1494785197/episode/QnV ... 00NzQwNzAx

You know what, I haven't listened to anything so fundementally true for a long, long time. I agreed with just about every comment in the complete half hour.

Time for a revolution. Where do I sign up?

The biggest problem is this. The majority of people that go to games today, (Or just watch it on TV.) are young, and have never known anything different to what the game is now. Persuading those people to demand change, might be quite difficult, but for the good of the game, it's worth a try.

Thanks for the link.

If you would like to read more Nicholson here are my postings of him on the MMT thread - most recent first, mainly his column on Football365.com

search.php?keywords=Nicholson&t=20891&sf=msgonly

you can also find him on twitter https://twitter.com/JohnnyTheNic

you now know where the podcast is and he also has a book titled "Can we have our football back" https://www.johnnicholsonwriter.co.uk/p ... 7386530883

I don't always agree with him, but I am always ready to have a listen to what he has to say