Is Johnson capable of telling the truth?

[dsr]

If both parents were possibly fatally ill why on earth were either of them driving and potentially causing a crash and loss of life?

Presumably Cummings felt (correctly, as it happens) that he could make the drive safely.

[martin_p]

Are you saying it was unreasonable for anyone in April to think that coronavirus might kill them? I think the death rate then was quite a lot higher than it is now, and we knew a lot less about it.

Which parent wasn't ill? Father Cummings was not suffering too many symptoms at the time, but bearing in mind he was ill later, the chances are he was ill when he made the drive.

Really? According to his wife he’d collapsed from his symptoms 24 hours or less before he made the drive. Anyone who would put their wife and child in a car and drive for over four hours non-stop after such an incident certainly doesn’t fit any description of responsible parenting that I’d subscribe to.

[RingoMcCartney]

Cummings isn’t an elected representative, but appears to wield a lot of power.

I'll raise you Alistair Campbell. I'll raise you the "sexed up dossier". I'll raise you 500,000 innocent men , women and children as well as British servicemen that lost their lives ,, thanks to a lying Labour Government.

[martin_p]

I'll raise you Alistair Campbell. I'll raise you the "sexed up dossier". I'll raise you 500,000 innocent men , women and children as well as British servicemen that lost their lives ,, thanks to a lying Labour Government.

Look over there quick!

[dsr]

Really? According to his wife he’d collapsed from his symptoms 24 hours or less before he made the drive. Anyone who would put their wife and child in a car and drive for over four hours non-stop after such an incident certainly doesn’t fit any description of responsible parenting that I’d subscribe to.

You really ought to provide a link for that accusation. After all, if you accuse someone of being a bad parent, you must have evidence. To make accusations based on a lie would be such an immoral, deeply unpleasant thing to do.

[aggi]

Are you saying it was unreasonable for anyone in April to think that coronavirus might kill them? I think the death rate then was quite a lot higher than it is now, and we knew a lot less about it.

Which parent wasn't ill? Father Cummings was not suffering too many symptoms at the time, but bearing in mind he was ill later, the chances are he was ill when he made the drive.

Well I was more picking up on your hyperbole of describing them both as possibly fatally ill whilst repeatedly also saying that coronavirus isn't that dangerous overall for reasonably young people with no underlying issues. Both are technically true but you significantly changed your emphasis.

The government certainly briefed that Cummings wasn't ill when he drove north. Admittedly there's every chance they subsequently changed that story.

Obviously if they were both possibly fatally ill then a 250 mile drive seems hugely irresponsible putting both their child and other road users at risk.

[Somethingfishy]

Look over there quick!

Think we can add Dawn Butler to the pot now. Her black friend was not only white but he was actually driving. Who'd have thought it eh? Not only is that a lie but it is actually fabricating the truth to pursue a racist narrative.

[martin_p]

You really ought to provide a link for that accusation. After all, if you accuse someone of being a bad parent, you must have evidence. To make accusations based on a lie would be such an immoral, deeply unpleasant thing to do.

He’s admitted himself he put his wife and son in a car and drove to see if he was fit to drive. I think his irresponsibility when it comes to putting his family in danger is already well established.

[aggi]

Although it's all pretty irrelevant now. The weird thing is the refusal to release any evidence. I can understand the refusal to release it to the papers. After all, one of the areas that Cummings specialises in is exploiting personal data so he may be fairly protective of his.

The strange bit was when Johnson was asked to release it to the Cabinet Secretary, the person who would normally deal with such matters, and he evaded the question multiple times and then refused.

[dsr]

Well I was more picking up on your hyperbole of describing them both as possibly fatally ill whilst repeatedly also saying that coronavirus isn't that dangerous overall for reasonably young people with no underlying issues. Both are technically true but you significantly changed your emphasis.

The government certainly briefed that Cummings wasn't ill when he drove north. Admittedly there's every chance they subsequently changed that story.

Obviously if they were both possibly fatally ill then a 250 mile drive seems hugely irresponsible putting both their child and other road users at risk.

I think the problem here is that "ill" has shades of meaning. Most words in English do, in fact, but it does give people the chance to argue that the word can only have one meaning and they know what it is. Not saying you're doing this, just sdaying how misunderstandings arise.

If you feel dog rough, you are ill.
If you feel fine but you are carrying an illness, then you are ill.

Different meanings of the same word. Cummings was carrying an illness when he drove north but he didn't feel dog rough. Presumably.

[dsr]

He’s admitted himself he put his wife and son in a car and drove to see if he was fit to drive. I think his irresponsibility when it comes to putting his family in danger is already well established.

Actually he admitted that he drove to prove to his wife he was fit to drive. A nuance which presumably wouldn't interest you.

[aggi]

Think we can add Dawn Butler to the pot now. Her black friend was not only white but he was actually driving. Who'd have thought it eh? Not only is that a lie but it is actually fabricating the truth to pursue a racist narrative.

This is a weird lie given there is a video and he's clearly not white.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the weird lie is from Somethingfishy, not Dawn Butler

[aggi]

I think the problem here is that "ill" has shades of meaning. Most words in English do, in fact, but it does give people the chance to argue that the word can only have one meaning and they know what it is. Not saying you're doing this, just sdaying how misunderstandings arise.

If you feel dog rough, you are ill.
If you feel fine but you are carrying an illness, then you are ill.

Different meanings of the same word. Cummings was carrying an illness when he drove north but he didn't feel dog rough. Presumably.

Well yes, although possibly fatal is quite an emphasis.

The official line was that he didn't have any symptoms when he drove north so had no reason to think they would both have coronavirus.

[dsr]

Well yes, although possibly fatal is quite an emphasis.

The official line was that he didn't have any symptoms when he drove north so had no reason to think they would both have coronavirus.

I thought the point of the journey was the Mr Cummings thought that he had got the first stages? Maybe it was just that he thought it was likely he would get it? At that time the general opinion was that it was very contagious and members of the same household would be likely to catch it from each other.

"Possibly fatal" may be an emphasis but it is undoubtedly possible. I don't think anyone can really look back at April and think it unreasonable if people thought coronavirus was potentially fatal?

[AndrewJB]

I'll raise you Alistair Campbell. I'll raise you the "sexed up dossier". I'll raise you 500,000 innocent men , women and children as well as British servicemen that lost their lives ,, thanks to a lying Labour Government.

I was against those things too. As Cummings is more than a press secretary, I guess we agree on him as well.

[AndrewJB]

I thought the point of the journey was the Mr Cummings thought that he had got the first stages? Maybe it was just that he thought it was likely he would get it? At that time the general opinion was that it was very contagious and members of the same household would be likely to catch it from each other.

"Possibly fatal" may be an emphasis but it is undoubtedly possible. I don't think anyone can really look back at April and think it unreasonable if people thought coronavirus was potentially fatal?

I can’t believe you’re still defending him. Driving to a beauty spot on his wife’s birthday to test eyesight? Driving hundreds of miles to his parent’s place because he had “no other childcare options in London”? When he’s a government advisor earning probably more than the PM? 19th April he apparently has evidence to counter eye witnesses, but he refuses to provide it?

Even if everything he said was true, it only makes him an idiot. Only an idiot would think there was no childcare available that was safe in London at that time. And only an idiot would drive for so far as an eye test. So he’s a liar or an idiot. I think he’s a liar, and I think any proper examination of his movements after his trip north will show he went there again.

[Zlatan]

You really ought to provide a link for that accusation. After all, if you accuse someone of being a bad parent, you must have evidence. To make accusations based on a lie would be such an immoral, deeply unpleasant thing to do.

I’m sure it was his wife who stated he was so ill he couldn’t get out of bed for 10 days, in fact all the discrepancies (or what other perceive as lies) are listed here...

https://inews.co.uk/news/mary-wakefield ... 431478/amp

You’ve already admitted he broke the rules on this thread, just let it drop, we all know what sort of person he is, and the type of person he works for (orders...?)

[aggi]

I thought the point of the journey was the Mr Cummings thought that he had got the first stages? Maybe it was just that he thought it was likely he would get it? At that time the general opinion was that it was very contagious and members of the same household would be likely to catch it from each other.

"Possibly fatal" may be an emphasis but it is undoubtedly possible. I don't think anyone can really look back at April and think it unreasonable if people thought coronavirus was potentially fatal?

Well the government briefed that he wasn't showing any symptoms although I wouldn't be surprised if the stories changed multiple times, particularly given the fictional account his wife published.

I know a few people (mainly of a similar age to Cummings thinking about it) where one person in the household had it and they followed government guidelines of sleeping in separate bedroom/on the sofa, separate bathroom, meals pushed through the door in the bedroom, etc as the government guidelines said. Admittedly these people weren't aware of the drive 250 miles to a holiday home option which they'd have probably preferred.

I don't think relatively fit people in their 40s with no underlying issues were generally viewing coronavirus as possibly fatal for them. The deaths weren't indicating that and the government messaging wasn't reflecting that (it was all about protecting the vulnerable).

As I say though, the really strange thing is the refusal to release the evidence to put this to bed. If it's detracting from government messaging and proving a distraction you'd have thought it would at least be released to the cabinet secretary. I do wonder whether it is Johnson or Cummings who are refusing to release it and on what basis

[AndrewJB]

Well the government briefed that he wasn't showing any symptoms although I wouldn't be surprised if the stories changed multiple times, particularly given the fictional account his wife published.

I know a few people (mainly of a similar age to Cummings thinking about it) where one person in the household had it and they followed government guidelines of sleeping in separate bedroom/on the sofa, separate bathroom, meals pushed through the door in the bedroom, etc as the government guidelines said. Admittedly these people weren't aware of the drive 250 miles to a holiday home option which they'd have probably preferred.

I don't think relatively fit people in their 40s with no underlying issues were generally viewing coronavirus as possibly fatal for them. The deaths weren't indicating that and the government messaging wasn't reflecting that (it was all about protecting the vulnerable).

As I say though, the really strange thing is the refusal to release the evidence to put this to bed. If it's detracting from government messaging and proving a distraction you'd have thought it would at least be released to the cabinet secretary. I do wonder whether it is Johnson or Cummings who are refusing to release it and on what basis

Your last paragraph brings me back to the question of Idiot or Liar? Stupidity could explain why they haven’t put the issue to bed, but so does lying.

Lying isn’t just a moral failing in itself (not to mention the huge amount of harm done in the actual miss communication). Lying is usually enabled by contempt for the recipient(s) of the lie. I think Johnson and Cummings view the citizens with such a degree of contempt, they see it as below themselves to answer questions. We saw this with Cummings’ press conference in which he refused to apologise. It would have gone a long way to just say sorry - even if only an act of empathy, but he didn’t.