Cancel Culture ?

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Bfcboyo
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Cancel Culture ?

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:24 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53768254

Never heard of this before but agree with the oppressive sentiment against the freedom of speech and thought.

To be boxed and condemned for merely disagreeing with the sentiments of something is a very sad world.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Pstotto » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:34 pm

It's to keep the swirl of the collective unconscious going.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by TheFamilyCat » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:34 pm

I like Nick Cave but this all sounds a bit melodramatic.

Consumers have freedom of choice; if they choose not to buy from a certain company, for whatever reason, that is up to them.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by clarethomer » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:35 pm

Is this how you become Woke?

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by martin_p » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:51 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:34 pm
I like Nick Cave but this all sounds a bit melodramatic.

Consumers have freedom of choice; if they choose not to buy from a certain company, for whatever reason, that is up to them.
While that’s true it’s the pressure on others and vilification if they don’t follow suit that bothers me.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by LeadBelly » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:12 pm

The Guardian ran with this this morning https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/ ... el-culture
I hadnt realized that the Beeb had covered it too. The Guardian (and BBC), IMO, are big exponents of "cancel culture" so I was pleasantly surprised they ran this. I've never really followed Nick Cave's life/opinions before though he's written some absolutely blinding songs (Into My Arms, Ship Song, Mercy Seat etc). I'm impressed by his bravery and honesty coming out with this statement.

"Cancel Culture" is pretty widespread lately and I see it as a form of fascism (though most current exponents tend to be left wing); It's pretty prevalent amongst luvvies (as weve seen in the J K Rowling rows lately) so a respected songwriter performer condemning it is great news.

From the Guardian piece: “Political correctness has grown to become the unhappiest religion in the world,” he wrote. “Its once honourable attempt to reimagine our society in a more equitable way now embodies all the worst aspects that religion has to offer (and none of the beauty) – moral certainty and self-righteousness shorn even of the capacity for redemption.”He added that cancel culture’s refusal to engage with uncomfortable ideas had an asphyxiating effect on the creative soul of a society, and that creativity could knock at foundational beliefs and in doing so generate fresh ways of seeing the world.

Well said that man.
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:30 pm

This was almost 75 years ago, however, it is still relevant today.

"After telling Gen MacArthur to tone down his language before signing the WW2 Surrender Agreement with Japan, President Truman mentioned Political Correctness. The general asked what it meant. A telegram sent at 21.20 1 Sep 1945 read as follows:-
Political Correctness is a doctrine, recently fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and promoted by a sick mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of **** by the clean end."
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by claptrappers_union » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:32 pm

The fear of being 'cancelled' is real. I read the story this week about a 17-year-old dancer from some reality TV in America, she felt the need to issue a statement, apologising for mocking other people's races in a home video that resurfaced and was posted on Instagram - she was NINE at the time.

I'm not a fan of 'trial by social media'. Only today I watched a video of a woman coming out of Asda with a man pointing his phone at her saying he was calling the police because she left her dog in her car. I get it... that's not on, it's terrible. But if he feels that strongly about it, he should just phone the police and let the justice system do its thing - but to shame her on social media - to me, that's not right. She could easily wind up dead tomorrow because of that.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:57 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:30 pm
This was almost 75 years ago, however, it is still relevant today.

"After telling Gen MacArthur to tone down his language before signing the WW2 Surrender Agreement with Japan, President Truman mentioned Political Correctness. The general asked what it meant. A telegram sent at 21.20 1 Sep 1945 read as follows:-
Political Correctness is a doctrine, recently fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and promoted by a sick mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of **** by the clean end."
Although World War II has been one of the most influential and well-studied events of modern history, evidence of this purported telegraph exchange between Truman and MacArthur was virtually non-existent on the Internet prior to 2015.

In one portion of the telegram exchange, Truman supposedly referenced the “mainstream media,” a marked neologism. During Truman’s political career (and for many decades thereafter), the news media consisted largely of radio and local newspapers; alternative news sources were not prominent enough in the 1940’s for the predominant news sources to be tabbed as a politically polarizing entity with the pejorative “mainstream media.”

Also telling is the use of the term “political correctness” in the purported exchange. It’s true that the phrase “politically correct” was first employed as far back as 1793, but not in any way resembling the modern application of the term. The current usage was popularized on a large scale in the 1980s and 1990s, decades after Truman’s supposed condemnation of the concept, as described in the 2009 book Political Correctness: A History of Semantics and Culture by Geoffrey Hughes:

https://www.snopes.com/
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:24 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:57 pm
Although World War II has been one of the most influential and well-studied events of modern history, evidence of this purported telegraph exchange between Truman and MacArthur was virtually non-existent on the Internet prior to 2015.

In one portion of the telegram exchange, Truman supposedly referenced the “mainstream media,” a marked neologism. During Truman’s political career (and for many decades thereafter), the news media consisted largely of radio and local newspapers; alternative news sources were not prominent enough in the 1940’s for the predominant news sources to be tabbed as a politically polarizing entity with the pejorative “mainstream media.”

Also telling is the use of the term “political correctness” in the purported exchange. It’s true that the phrase “politically correct” was first employed as far back as 1793, but not in any way resembling the modern application of the term. The current usage was popularized on a large scale in the 1980s and 1990s, decades after Truman’s supposed condemnation of the concept, as described in the 2009 book Political Correctness: A History of Semantics and Culture by Geoffrey Hughes:

https://www.snopes.com/
Fair enough, however, the sentiment still applies in this crazy world in which we live and, as someone in my mid seventies, I can't be arsed with bothering who is upset by anything I say, I have far more important things to bother about in life such as helping those less fortunate than myself. That is what keeps me happy in life.

I do like the fact that it states that "evidence of this purported telegraph exchange between Truman and MacArthur was virtually non-existent on the Internet prior to 2015." ----it also was not on the internet in 1945, therefore, it definitely could not have happened ---perhaps WWII also did not happen because it was not on the internet in 1945.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:25 pm

LeadBelly wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:12 pm
The Guardian ran with this this morning https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/ ... el-culture
I hadnt realized that the Beeb had covered it too. The Guardian (and BBC), IMO, are big exponents of "cancel culture" so I was pleasantly surprised they ran this. I've never really followed Nick Cave's life/opinions before though he's written some absolutely blinding songs (Into My Arms, Ship Song, Mercy Seat etc). I'm impressed by his bravery and honesty coming out with this statement.

"Cancel Culture" is pretty widespread lately and I see it as a form of fascism (though most current exponents tend to be left wing); It's pretty prevalent amongst luvvies (as weve seen in the J K Rowling rows lately) so a respected songwriter performer condemning it is great news.

From the Guardian piece: “Political correctness has grown to become the unhappiest religion in the world,” he wrote. “Its once honourable attempt to reimagine our society in a more equitable way now embodies all the worst aspects that religion has to offer (and none of the beauty) – moral certainty and self-righteousness shorn even of the capacity for redemption.”He added that cancel culture’s refusal to engage with uncomfortable ideas had an asphyxiating effect on the creative soul of a society, and that creativity could knock at foundational beliefs and in doing so generate fresh ways of seeing the world.

Well said that man.
Cancel culture has been going on for a long time, and is on the right as much as on the left of politics. What, for instance was Senator MCarthy’s Hollywood blacklist, if not cancel culture? The rightwing press here has always practised it, just as the press in Communist countries did.

The term is as widely stretched and abused as political correctness, censorship, and free speech have been. So people like Tommy Robinson / Lennon, and Katie Hopkins claim to be cancelled when ejected from a social media platform, when in fact they’ve just broached their user agreements one too many times. I completely agree that some people are just having their opinions suppressed without having done anything wrong - and that’s where it becomes unreasonable censorship, but then how often does this actually happen? Merely being taken up for a view stated publicly is debate. If a group of people advocate a boycott of your work, that’s not censorship, and I think we should all hope that in the ensuing debate, both the quality of your work and your views are considered fairly. Your free speech is still intact, and it should be said nobody has a right to a platform beyond what ordinary people have. By the same token, should be diverse enough to reflect the society we live in (rather than most of it owned by the very rich).

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by dsr » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:41 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:25 pm
Cancel culture has been going on for a long time, and is on the right as much as on the left of politics. What, for instance was Senator MCarthy’s Hollywood blacklist, if not cancel culture? The rightwing press here has always practised it, just as the press in Communist countries did.

The term is as widely stretched and abused as political correctness, censorship, and free speech have been. So people like Tommy Robinson / Lennon, and Katie Hopkins claim to be cancelled when ejected from a social media platform, when in fact they’ve just broached their user agreements one too many times. I completely agree that some people are just having their opinions suppressed without having done anything wrong - and that’s where it becomes unreasonable censorship, but then how often does this actually happen? Merely being taken up for a view stated publicly is debate. If a group of people advocate a boycott of your work, that’s not censorship, and I think we should all hope that in the ensuing debate, both the quality of your work and your views are considered fairly. Your free speech is still intact, and it should be said nobody has a right to a platform beyond what ordinary people have. By the same token, should be diverse enough to reflect the society we live in (rather than most of it owned by the very rich).
You could also mention Germaine Greer, Amber Rudd, and Martina Navratilova, but I suppose that mentioning people who aren't considered cranks would risk bringing a bit of balance into the debate. "No platforming" is not debate, and those three named have all been "no-platformed" by supposedly intelligent people. You may have noticed that university lecturers have been recently reporting that they have to remain anonymous if they want to say that the British Empire ever did anything good or Rhodes was not all bad; if universities cannot have free speech, then free speech goes underground and gets twisted.

As for your comment about the right wing press practising the same "cancel culture" as the press in communist countries, that is plain silly. I can only assume your brain didn't know what your fingers were typing. Unless you would like to name names, with examples, of which of our right wing papers were the equivalent of Pravda?
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:09 am

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:24 pm
Fair enough, however, the sentiment still applies in this crazy world in which we live and, as someone in my mid seventies, I can't be arsed with bothering who is upset by anything I say, I have far more important things to bother about in life such as helping those less fortunate than myself. That is what keeps me happy in life.

I do like the fact that it states that "evidence of this purported telegraph exchange between Truman and MacArthur was virtually non-existent on the Internet prior to 2015." ----it also was not on the internet in 1945, therefore, it definitely could not have happened ---perhaps WWII also did not happen because it was not on the internet in 1945.
You say crazy times we live in, but you lived through some crazy times too, for people who were in their seventies during the 1960’s.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:43 am

dsr wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:41 pm
You could also mention Germaine Greer, Amber Rudd, and Martina Navratilova, but I suppose that mentioning people who aren't considered cranks would risk bringing a bit of balance into the debate. "No platforming" is not debate, and those three named have all been "no-platformed" by supposedly intelligent people. You may have noticed that university lecturers have been recently reporting that they have to remain anonymous if they want to say that the British Empire ever did anything good or Rhodes was not all bad; if universities cannot have free speech, then free speech goes underground and gets twisted.

As for your comment about the right wing press practising the same "cancel culture" as the press in communist countries, that is plain silly. I can only assume your brain didn't know what your fingers were typing. Unless you would like to name names, with examples, of which of our right wing papers were the equivalent of Pravda?
Well, right now all the rightwing papers are like PRAVDA. It’s like watching a flock of birds or a school of fish all working to the same end. They cancelled Corbyn. You won’t be able to find an article in which Corbyn is quoted accurately and in context, or where the Labour manifesto is described honestly. Over the entire time of his tenure. If the rightwing press is not like Pravda, you’ll easily find what I claim doesn’t exist. I can also add photoshop montages by the BBC too. And the Sun. probably others.

Okay - as for people who have had their right to free speech suppressed, your examples haven’t been silenced but had speaking engagements cancelled. Not the same thing. Why and how it happened is a good debate (I don’t know) but it’s not suppression of free speech (certainly not of the level of the rightwing press which denies platforms to actual left wing people all the time.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Rowls » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:51 am

"They cancelled Corbyn"

Andrew, you're too funny. Nobody takes you seriously.
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by dsr » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:59 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:43 am
Well, right now all the rightwing papers are like PRAVDA. It’s like watching a flock of birds or a school of fish all working to the same end. They cancelled Corbyn. You won’t be able to find an article in which Corbyn is quoted accurately and in context, or where the Labour manifesto is described honestly. Over the entire time of his tenure. If the rightwing press is not like Pravda, you’ll easily find what I claim doesn’t exist. I can also add photoshop montages by the BBC too. And the Sun. probably others.

Okay - as for people who have had their right to free speech suppressed, your examples haven’t been silenced but had speaking engagements cancelled. Not the same thing. Why and how it happened is a good debate (I don’t know) but it’s not suppression of free speech (certainly not of the level of the rightwing press which denies platforms to actual left wing people all the time.
I shall follow your example and say nothing. Though I won't do it in such a long winded manner!
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Damo » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:00 am

Anyone who uses twitter will know how cancel culture has accelerated over the past few years. And not just for extremists like Yaxley-Lennon and Hopkins.
The reason it is being discussed as potentially bad now by the left is because some of their darlings have been caught up in it. J K Rowling came very close to being cancelled not long ago for her views about men being allowed into women only environments, and it appears to have been a watershed.
Its good that the center left are beginning to see some sense at last

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Bfcboyo » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:53 am

claptrappers_union wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:32 pm
The fear of being 'cancelled' is real. I read the story this week about a 17-year-old dancer from some reality TV in America, she felt the need to issue a statement, apologising for mocking other people's races in a home video that resurfaced and was posted on Instagram - she was NINE at the time.

I'm not a fan of 'trial by social media'. Only today I watched a video of a woman coming out of Asda with a man pointing his phone at her saying he was calling the police because she left her dog in her car. I get it... that's not on, it's terrible. But if he feels that strongly about it, he should just phone the police and let the justice system do its thing - but to shame her on social media - to me, that's not right. She could easily wind up dead tomorrow because of that.
Could you imagine the amount of calls the police get from easily offended people. It must be impossible to sift through and actually police . They only target high profile cases of this nature to be seen to be doing something. General adult public need to get over name calling , the kids do from 3 years old.

Dog in the car, was the window open? Was she more than 5 minutes ? I don't have a dog and don't know what is acceptable. I remember somebody filming me as I had parked slightly on a pavement with room to get another car past, to load unload and a troll was going mental filming me. I said why don't you get a job you lazy fat bas*ard. He was thrilled by the reaction the weird little troll like creature obviously fed off this to continue it's existence.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Greenmile » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:08 am

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -food.html

Those lefties and their cancel culture, eh?
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:53 am

Rowls wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:51 am
"They cancelled Corbyn"

Andrew, you're too funny. Nobody takes you seriously.
Translation: “Your take on things doesn’t accord with my ossified view of the world, so I’ll attack you personally instead.”
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:00 am
Anyone who uses twitter will know how cancel culture has accelerated over the past few years. And not just for extremists like Yaxley-Lennon and Hopkins.
The reason it is being discussed as potentially bad now by the left is because some of their darlings have been caught up in it. J K Rowling came very close to being cancelled not long ago for her views about men being allowed into women only environments, and it appears to have been a watershed.
Its good that the center left are beginning to see some sense at last
How did Rowling “come very close to being cancelled”? And what does “cancelled” mean in this context?

Here is a prominent philosopher advocating cancelling on a grand scale:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ories.html

And we have Lance Forman’s famous rant from last year: “I think an absolute priority for the next government must be to root out leftist culture from our schools, universities, civil service, state run services, and media (especially the BBC).” He added that if we don’t do this we are doomed. Like I said, it’s a feature of both sides of politics.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Billy Balfour » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:14 pm

Cancel culture is going to get a lot worse during this recession. People cancelling season tickets, subscription TV, car leases, mobile phone upgrades etc.

As for the other cancel culture - meh. Oh, and maybe stop being so obsessed with social media.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Antmass » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:10 pm

I don't know who Lance Forman is, but I like the cut of his jib.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Billy Balfour » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:43 pm

He sounds like another obsessive. And yes, they are on both 'sides' of the debate. Quite frankly, I'm fed up with all of these pointless people who make a living out of gobshitery
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Damo » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:23 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm
How did Rowling “come very close to being cancelled”? And what does “cancelled” mean in this context?

Here is a prominent philosopher advocating cancelling on a grand scale:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ories.html

And we have Lance Forman’s famous rant from last year: “I think an absolute priority for the next government must be to root out leftist culture from our schools, universities, civil service, state run services, and media (especially the BBC).” He added that if we don’t do this we are doomed. Like I said, it’s a feature of both sides of politics.
Cancelling JK Rowling would, at a guess, mean she would be banned from twitter. Be no platformed at any university she speaks at. Have hundreds of people, with thousands of profiles demanding all companies end all financial relationships with her. Have antifa looting all shops that sell her books, and the sports shops next door and see a few woke celebrities apologising for dressing up as Harry Potter for world book day when they were 12. Maybe it would also involve a police visit asking her if could keep her thoughts in check
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Greenmile » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:54 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:23 pm
Cancelling JK Rowling would, at a guess, mean she would be banned from twitter. Be no platformed at any university she speaks at. Have hundreds of people, with thousands of profiles demanding all companies end all financial relationships with her. Have antifa looting all shops that sell her books, and the sports shops next door and see a few woke celebrities apologising for dressing up as Harry Potter for world book day when they were 12. Maybe it would also involve a police visit asking her if could keep her thoughts in check
In what way were any of those things “close” to happening?

Some folk criticised her for her (fairly dehumanising) views on trans people, is all. They have every right to do so.

I think Rowling got more criticism than most, purely because she had previously been seen as something of a woke lefty herself, so it upset folk more when she came out with these regressive views. If someone like, say, Clarkson had said the same things, nobody would have really cared.

It was pretty funny when, after co-signing a letter complaining about the “silencing” of different viewpoints, she sued a children’s website because it was critical of her views on the trans community. Was she participating in “cancel culture” herself by doing that?

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Damo » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:11 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:54 pm
In what way were any of those things “close” to happening?

Some folk criticised her for her (fairly dehumanising) views on trans people, is all. They have every right to do so.

I think Rowling got more criticism than most, purely because she had previously been seen as something of a woke lefty herself, so it upset folk more when she came out with these regressive views. If someone like, say, Clarkson had said the same things, nobody would have really cared.

It was pretty funny when, after co-signing a letter complaining about the “silencing” of different viewpoints, she sued a children’s website because it was critical of her views on the trans community. Was she participating in “cancel culture” herself by doing that?
I'd seen plenty of comments on there from people who thought Rowling was about to be cancelled. I think (might be remembering wrong, I'm no expert) it was just after Graham Linehan (another Liberal gone rogue) was cancelled for similar views regarding trans fellas using women only spaces.
And yeah I do think she was participating in cancel culture doing that. Just like she has many times before. She's a massive hypocrite and only saw a negative of cancel culture when she was the one about to be cancelled.
The list of people who signed the letter was the cause of some mirth amongst some groups (nazis and that)

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Damo » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:12 pm

took me ages to post that. Keep getting the ip blocked message. Seems I've been cancelled too lol

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by NottsClaret » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:17 pm

JK Rowling was fairly reasonable, certainly not dehumanising. It did bring 'cancel culture' to the fore for a lot of people. Unfortunately, on that occasion they picked on a super-rich, intelligent woman who it's nigh on impossible to bully so she stuck to her guns partly because she could afford to.

If even she is too much for you, have a listen to Barack Obama saying similar things on being able to speak your mind. Rowan Atkinson spoke pretty well on it too this week.

This is a world apart from the likes of Hopkins or Yaxley-Lennon.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:21 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:11 pm
I'd seen plenty of comments on there from people who thought Rowling was about to be cancelled. I think (might be remembering wrong, I'm no expert) it was just after Graham Linehan (another Liberal gone rogue) was cancelled for similar views regarding trans fellas using women only spaces.
Not bothered in the wider debate but if you're gonna bring Graham Linehan into it then its worth doing some proper research on what the issue with him is all about and not just reading the biased headline summary from whichever political leaning Twitter feeds you tend to follow

Linehan has stalked, harassed and prety much devoted his time to proactively going after Trans people and inciting others to go after them (Twitter pile-ons) too with the intent of hurting them.

I think his views are terrible but if it was him being attacked just for having those views and wanting to share them then I would support him but he has been the aggressor really going after people because he doesn't agree or recognise their viewpoint and when people have fought back to defend the people he has gone after suddenly he is the victim of cancel culture

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by claptrappers_union » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:25 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:17 pm
JK Rowling was fairly reasonable, certainly not dehumanising. It did bring 'cancel culture' to the fore for a lot of people. Unfortunately, on that occasion, they picked on a super-rich, intelligent woman who it's nigh on impossible to bully so she stuck to her guns partly because she could afford to.
The thing is, some people see behind the noise - others will just think she is the devil and not actually know why as they have already picked a side - and that's it... especially the young 'Gen-Z' kids who have no interest in Harry Potter. In 20 years time, Rowling could very well be culturally irrelevant because the body of her work will be dismissed by many because of the 'controversy'.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by claptrappers_union » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:28 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:53 am
Dog in the car, was the window open? Was she more than 5 minutes ? I don't have a dog and don't know what is acceptable. I remember somebody filming me as I had parked slightly on a pavement with room to get another car past, to load unload and a troll was going mental filming me. I said why don't you get a job you lazy fat bas*ard. He was thrilled by the reaction the weird little troll like creature obviously fed off this to continue it's existence.
Regarding the dog incident, I don't think it matters, but to answer your question, according to the man shouting at her, it was longer than 5 mins and looking at the video the window was just 'cracked open' and it was a small car. He was bang on in his accusations. But my argument is that he shouldn't post it online.

I worry that these days people might get into an altercation, then pulling out a camera-phone only antagonises the person more then footage shows the sitaution in the wrong context.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by NottsClaret » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:32 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:25 pm
The thing is, some people see behind the noise - others will just think she is the devil and not actually know why as they have already picked a side - and that's it... especially the young 'Gen-Z' kids who have no interest in Harry Potter. In 20 years time, Rowling could very well be culturally irrelevant because the body of her work will be dismissed by many because of the 'controversy'.
True. I did read up on it, I was surprised she was in the sights of the thought police. Always struck me as being on the 'right (left wing) side', even annoying the right wing types. When I read what she'd said, I thought 'fair do's', seems reasonable or at least adds to the conversation. Seeing a load of men hurling abuse at her and demanding she's silenced didn't sit well.

But that's the problem, we don't have debates or conversation. We retreat into echo chambers, you're right or you're wrong, cancelled or woke.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by dsr » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:34 pm

I still don't fully understand the objection to Rowling.

Is it a linguistic objection, complaining that the term "woman" which has always meant "person with no Y chromosomes" has now changed its meaning and anyone using the old meaning is wrong?

Or is a physical one, that it is wrong to say there is any difference between a person with a penis and a person without?

If we are still allowed to acknowledge a difference between person-with-penis and person-without, what are the new words?

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by claptrappers_union » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:40 pm

dsr wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:34 pm
I still don't fully understand the objection to Rowling.

Is it a linguistic objection, complaining that the term "woman" which has always meant "person with no Y chromosomes" has now changed its meaning and anyone using the old meaning is wrong?

Or is a physical one, that it is wrong to say there is any difference between a person with a penis and a person without?

If we are still allowed to acknowledge a difference between person-with-penis and person-without, what are the new words?
Now, I can see you're thinking about it, you've opened a discussion and willing to listen to other people's opinion to find a better way of understanding

However, if I was like many people on twitter - I'd just retweet with a virtue signal that you are just being ignorant and transphobic, I'm going to report this post. If ClaretTony doesn't remove it, it's decided by definition he supports transphobia too!

Amazingly, people will retweet that, news media picks it up for clickbait content, which creates a new out of context discussion, which flows back into the mainstream discussion where Burnley Football Club have to issue a statement distancing themselves from this website which co-incidentally stopped raising money for the club after the OneClubForAll slogan became more apparent. This site is then 'cancelled'
Last edited by claptrappers_union on Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:49 pm

You can spot the saddos who spend all of their time reading one-sided political guff on Twitter a mile away.
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by NottsClaret » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:08 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:49 pm
You can spot the saddos who spend all of their time reading one-sided political guff on Twitter a mile away.
That's the concerning bit, rather than this particular topic. People apparently wear with a badge of honour the fact they don't follow, or block, or have been blocked by those they don't agree with. Then actively encourage others to cut themselves off from 'other' views.

I don't know if it's always been this way, but maybe it goes some way to explaining how we're so polarised now. If a figurehead from 'your side' makes the most ludicrous statement you're obliged to blindly follow. And you only hear such one-sided views that if someone says something eminently sane if challenging - as Rowling did - then it's met with fury. I could also find plenty of examples of thoroughly fair points made by Corbyn or Abbot which were hammered at the time because of who said them.

I do go on Twitter and even if it's difficult, I do force myself to follow plenty of people who I mostly disagree with. It's loads more fun and a lot more healthy.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:23 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:08 pm
That's the concerning bit, rather than this particular topic. People apparently wear with a badge of honour the fact they don't follow, or block, or have been blocked by those they don't agree with. Then actively encourage others to cut themselves off from 'other' views.

I don't know if it's always been this way, but maybe it goes some way to explaining how we're so polarised now. If a figurehead from 'your side' makes the most ludicrous statement you're obliged to blindly follow. And you only hear such one-sided views that if someone says something eminently sane if challenging - as Rowling did - then it's met with fury. I could also find plenty of examples of thoroughly fair points made by Corbyn or Abbot which were hammered at the time because of who said them.

I do go on Twitter and even if it's difficult, I do force myself to follow plenty of people who I mostly disagree with. It's loads more fun and a lot more healthy.
I really can’t remember people in the UK being so partisan before the Brexit debate began. I’m certain things weren’t so black and white. Like you say, it is concerning, particularly how easily people are brainwashed.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Rowls » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:40 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm
Here is a prominent philosopher advocating cancelling on a grand scale:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ories.html
You want to know why I posted that nobody takes you seriously? You can paint it as you like but it's because of statements like this.

Have you even read the article?

It refers to Scruton's comments that state-funded education centres should not be politically biased. He was implying that if they wished to adopt a political stance that they should be willing and capable of surviving financially without state aid.

His comments can be seen in their wider context here:

https://humanevents.com/2019/05/13/roge ... ltogether/

It's very clear he is being rhetorical and playing the crowd here. He was, after all, a university lecturer himself. The idea that he truly believes universities should be "shut down" (less still the utter misrepresentation that he claimed "left wing universities should be shut down") is dross.

And what an irony it is that you are invoking Sir Roger whilst trying to claim that cancel culture is not more prevalent on the Left!

Sir Roger was sacked from a non-paid advisory role after his comments were deliberately misrepresented by the New Statesman. The journalist who misrepresented Sir Roger posted a picture of himself online celebrating Sir Roger's sacking, boasting "The feeling when you get right-wing racist and homophobe Roger Scruton sacked as a Tory government adviser".

The New Statesman was later forced into a grovelling full apology to Sir Roger. They admitted their hack had approached the interview not as a professional journalist but as an political activist.

Sir Roger was reinstated in his role shortly before his death.

You couldn't have picked a better example to demonstrate the phenomena you're trying to deny. It's laughable.

This is why nobody takes you seriously.
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by claptrappers_union » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:40 pm

My friend and I noticed it - a bit before the Brexit thing - we called it 'pick a side'.

Adverts for products seem to want people to vote

Twix, left or right.
Walkers - Choose me or lose me

There were others but I can't remember but it seems division makes good business sense
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Rowls » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:55 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:40 pm
My friend and I noticed it - a bit before the Brexit thing - we called it 'pick a side'.

Adverts for products seem to want people to vote

Twix, left or right.
Walkers - Choose me or lose me

There were others but I can't remember but it seems division makes good business sense
Yup. As demonstrated notably this week by an ice cream brand.

In a UK context it was Marmite who invented it but the concept derives, I think, from American politics where they call them "wedge issues".

The main two "wedge issues" are abortion and gun control.

At every election the Democrats propose to tighten gun control and the Republicans pledge to outlaw or further restrict abortion. Whoever is elected fail to act of their pledges. Why?

Because these are actually fringe issues which, without underplaying them, aren't normally a priority for any government. So why are these non-priority issues always a priority in their election campaigns? Because they evoke a strong emotional response and are therefore more likely to endow voters with a sense of loyalty and a desire to vote.

Our brains are hard-wired to see things as binary choices. This is because, as homo-sapiens, we all belong to a "tribe". And for tribal animals there are only two states of "being" that are important; either you are in the tribe or you are not in the tribe.

So if you're an American voter who is uncomfortable with the idea of abortion (you don't necessarily have to be against it, you only have to find the idea unsettling) then faced with an emotional choice between two parties offering what looks like vastly different policies you'll opt for the one that most closely matches your emotional response. That's your tribe.

Does anyone ever stick with a tribe out of a logical extrapolation of what direction the tribe is heading? ("Ogg invent wheel and Zog good at make fire I stick with this tribe. We be spearheading agriculture first!" thought no caveman ever)
No. We stick with our tribes, as we stick with our football teams, out of tribal loyalty.

Same with marmite. Essentially, you ask yourself "Do I hate marmite?" and if the answer is "no" then the psychological trick is to make you then think that you must, "logically", therefore be part of the tribe who "love" marmite.

It works (and it works on all of us) because we reach these conclusions not with our conscious thinking parts of our brains but our emotional caveman reasoning.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:57 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:11 pm
I'd seen plenty of comments on there from people who thought Rowling was about to be cancelled. I think (might be remembering wrong, I'm no expert) it was just after Graham Linehan (another Liberal gone rogue) was cancelled for similar views regarding trans fellas using women only spaces.
And yeah I do think she was participating in cancel culture doing that. Just like she has many times before. She's a massive hypocrite and only saw a negative of cancel culture when she was the one about to be cancelled.
The list of people who signed the letter was the cause of some mirth amongst some groups (nazis and that)
To be kicked off Twitter you’ve got to breach their terms and conditions.

No platforming has been around for a long time too. The NUS proscribes a few organisations, and I don’t think anyone would argue with any of them. In fact I think they should probably add a few more to the list.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Damo » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:02 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:21 pm
Not bothered in the wider debate but if you're gonna bring Graham Linehan into it then its worth doing some proper research on what the issue with him is all about and not just reading the biased headline summary from whichever political leaning Twitter feeds you tend to follow

Linehan has stalked, harassed and prety much devoted his time to proactively going after Trans people and inciting others to go after them (Twitter pile-ons) too with the intent of hurting them.

I think his views are terrible but if it was him being attacked just for having those views and wanting to share them then I would support him but he has been the aggressor really going after people because he doesn't agree or recognise their viewpoint and when people have fought back to defend the people he has gone after suddenly he is the victim of cancel culture
Wasn't defending Linehan. He's an absolute whopper. The main reason I mentioned him was because he was massively in favour of the clown who taught his pug to nazi salute (can't remember his name) being convicted by a court and was then a victim of cancel culture himself.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Rowls » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:08 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:57 pm
To be kicked off Twitter you’ve got to breach their terms and conditions.

No platforming has been around for a long time too. The NUS proscribes a few organisations, and I don’t think anyone would argue with any of them. In fact I think they should probably add a few more to the list.
The NUS proscribes the Sun.

Now, you might find it to be a reprehensible rag of a newspaper and we're all allowed to take that opinion. That's down to personal choice.

But the NUS doesn't just allow it's members to come to that opinion themselves and not buy the paper if they choose not to - the NUS bans it. It's still the most popular newspaper in the country but you won't find it for sale on a UK university campus.

What happens if you're studying journalism and want to buy a copy of the Sun to study tabloid journalese? You can't buy it on a campus because the NUS has banned it.

That's what cancel culture is.

edit - I've made a mistake here based on my time working at the University of Nottingham. These bans aren't nationwide but are voted in by the NUS representatives / council of that particular campus.

Here's another example:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/medi ... 25046.html

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:14 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:02 pm
Wasn't defending Linehan. He's an absolute whopper. The main reason I mentioned him was because he was massively in favour of the clown who taught his pug to nazi salute (can't remember his name) being convicted by a court and was then a victim of cancel culture himself.
Yep I didnt take it as you defending or supporting him but he is often cited by the right as an example of left cancel culture but when you scratch beneath the surface its such a misrepresentation.

I only know because in my youth I liked a lot of his work so was intrigued by the whole Twitter battle surrounding him. I didnt and still dont fully understand the intricacies of the TERF debate but I did see enough of him to know that he is no victim and as you rightly say is an absolute whopper (with double fries)!!
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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:30 pm

Rowls wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:40 pm
You want to know why I posted that nobody takes you seriously? You can paint it as you like but it's because of statements like this.

Have you even read the article?

It refers to Scruton's comments that state-funded education centres should not be politically biased. He was implying that if they wished to adopt a political stance that they should be willing and capable of surviving financially without state aid.

His comments can be seen in their wider context here:

https://humanevents.com/2019/05/13/roge ... ltogether/

It's very clear he is being rhetorical and playing the crowd here. He was, after all, a university lecturer himself. The idea that he truly believes universities should be "shut down" (less still the utter misrepresentation that he claimed "left wing universities should be shut down") is dross.

And what an irony it is that you are invoking Sir Roger whilst trying to claim that cancel culture is not more prevalent on the Left!

Sir Roger was sacked from a non-paid advisory role after his comments were deliberately misrepresented by the New Statesman. The journalist who misrepresented Sir Roger posted a picture of himself online celebrating Sir Roger's sacking, boasting "The feeling when you get right-wing racist and homophobe Roger Scruton sacked as a Tory government adviser".

The New Statesman was later forced into a grovelling full apology to Sir Roger. They admitted their hack had approached the interview not as a professional journalist but as an political activist.

Sir Roger was reinstated in his role shortly before his death.

You couldn't have picked a better example to demonstrate the phenomena you're trying to deny. It's laughable.

This is why nobody takes you seriously.
You’re mistakenly drawing the conclusion that I was taking Scruton’s words at face value. It doesn’t matter how you interpret his words. The effect remains to silence voices on the left. And that is cancel culture.

Scruton made racially offensive remarks during an interview. Anti-Semitic and Islamophobic remarks (and he’d been caught out before with unacceptable views). The whole transcript is online. To claim he was entrapped is laughable. The NS apologised for the unprofessionalism of the journalist tweeting after the sacking. Scruton cancelled himself.

People made it onto your anti-Semitism thread for less than what Scruton said.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by claptrappers_union » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:30 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:02 pm
Wasn't defending Linehan. He's an absolute whopper. The main reason I mentioned him was because he was massively in favour of the clown who taught his pug to nazi salute (can't remember his name) being convicted by a court and was then a victim of cancel culture himself.
You mean Count Dankula, the Scottish 'shitposter' - I'm in the camp that he told a joke and there as no malice intended... I'm not saying it was a funny joke or a clever joke... it was in poor taste, but a joke all the same

For those who need context:-

"My girlfriend is always ranting and raving about how cute and adorable her wee dog is so I thought I would turn him into the least cute thing I could think of, which is a Nazi." In the video, the dog, prompted by the command "Sieg Heil", raises his right paw in the manner of a Nazi salute, watches a speech by Adolf Hitler, and responds immediately when Meechan asks if he wants to "gas the Jews".

The court ruled that Meechan's claim that the video was a joke intended for his girlfriend "lacked credibility" as Meechan's girlfriend did not subscribe to the YouTube channel to which the video was posted and sentenced to a fine of £800

However, after that, he made an absolute howler and became bedfellows with Tommy Robinson and became a figurehead for UKIP, and I was devastated. I was annoyed because I was in 'it was just a joke' camp and I thought he was 'alright really' (but I'm guilty of that 'pick a side' thing myself)

Anyway, he has since distanced himself from that lot. He since explained that he got on board with UKIP because they were the only political party who were taking free speech seriously and supported him throughout

If you watch his later videos, you can actually see where he is coming from, he talks about it openly - unfortunately, though, people just read and remember that he's an antisemitic animal abuser from UKIP.... and never follow it up afterwards. Personally, I don't think he was represented enough by politicians, celebrities or established comedians because no-one wants to be tarred with the 'anti-semitic' brush - that's the worst one. You're definitely 'cancelled' if you fall into that trap.

EDIT: This sums it up - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti2bVS40cz0 (bad language)
Last edited by claptrappers_union on Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Rowls » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:33 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:30 pm
You’re mistakenly drawing the conclusion that I was taking Scruton’s words at face value. It doesn’t matter how you interpret his words. The effect remains to silence voices on the left. And that is cancel culture.

Scruton made racially offensive remarks during an interview. Anti-Semitic and Islamophobic remarks (and he’d been caught out before with unacceptable views). The whole transcript is online. To claim he was entrapped is laughable. The NS apologised for the unprofessionalism of the journalist tweeting after the sacking. Scruton cancelled himself.

People made it onto your anti-Semitism thread for less than what Scruton said.
This is why people don't take you seriously.

Here is the New Statesman's statement in full, directly contradicting your unique take on it.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/m ... er-scruton

Nobody takes you seriously.

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by Damo » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:34 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:14 pm
Yep I didnt take it as you defending or supporting him but he is often cited by the right as an example of left cancel culture but when you scratch beneath the surface its such a misrepresentation.

I only know because in my youth I liked a lot of his work so was intrigued by the whole Twitter battle surrounding him. I didnt and still dont fully understand the intricacies of the TERF debate but I did see enough of him to know that he is no victim and as you rightly say is an absolute whopper (with double fries)!!
Linehan was banned from twitter for tweeting "men aren't women tho" that was followed by multiple news articles calling him a transphobe, and I'd imagine he will find it difficult to find work in the future. Rightly or wrong, he has been cancelled.
Rowling tweeted something very similar, so I think I'm correct in stating she came close to also being cancelled am I not?

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Re: Cancel Culture ?

Post by claptrappers_union » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:38 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:34 pm
Linehan was banned from twitter for tweeting "men aren't women tho" that was followed by multiple news articles calling him a transphobe, and I'd imagine he will find it difficult to find work in the future. Rightly or wrong, he has been cancelled.
Rowling tweeted something very similar, so I think I'm correct in stating she came close to also being cancelled am I not?
Linehan will never write for television again - it's not worth the negative publicity and the fuss... he's cancelled.
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