Cancel Culture ?

[PeterWilton]

Oh by the way Peter,
since you have not replied regarding my questions on the picture, I forgot one other point you can add to the list as you ponder how to answer:

There is also one other person in the bathroom taking the picture, is it a male/female or trans person, of is the male taking the picture through a mirror, or as I suspect might be happening is the male taking a picture of the trans female stood at a urinal?

Hopefully you will be sharing links to where you got the picture that provides explanations to all the points made regarding the picture you wanted people to discuss so we can review and form an informed position rather than rely on your interpretation of things. I ask this because up to now your interpretation and explanations have been very weak and seemed to have virtually convinced no one. I know you don't care but I am interested to learn and at least try to understand other people's point of view.

Weirdchamp.

Anyway, his name is Michael C. Hughes if you want to look him up. There's upworthy, Montreal gazette, BBC, and a bunch of other links you can follow. In the spirit of the discussion I'll let you choose whichever one you like.

[PeterWilton]

You 'literally' haven't. You churned out the 'anyone who identifies as a woman' line.

But you don't know what a woman is, or at least can't say. So it's pretty meaningless. Actually, it's totally meaningless.

So come on Turtle, try harder than that. If they're identifying as something, what is that something. What is a woman? What makes a woman different to a man, if not solely biology?

I'm not going to play your dumb game, NottsClaret. You have the only answer you're going to get.
If you would like to be more specific with your question, like are you talking about physiologically or gender identity? I might be more inclined to give you a more specific answer, but until then I'm going to assume you are referring to gender, and if so then you have my answer. I am baffled as to why my answer is unacceptable to you.

Why don't you answer the question? You obviously have a different answer, so let's hear it.

[KateR]

You 'literally' haven't. You churned out the 'anyone who identifies as a woman' line.

But you don't know what a woman is, or at least can't say. So it's pretty meaningless. Actually, it's totally meaningless.

So come on Turtle, try harder than that. If they're identifying as something, what is that something. What is a woman? What makes a woman different to a man, if not solely biology?

sorry to say but you yourself don't actually know the answer to the question you are asking. What you are doing is baiting someone to give the answer that you want to hear, which is totally incorrect. It has clearly been demonstrated it is not a person born as a biological women and the same for males.

The law is very clear on this, whether you agree or not is irrelevant, "people" who were born as one of two distinct sexes can undergoing transformation and obtain passports, driving licenses, etc. and live there lives in exactly the same manner as females or males born genetically that way.

[KateR]

Weirdchamp.

Anyway, his name is Michael C. Hughes if you want to look him up. There's upworthy, Montreal gazette, BBC, and a bunch of other links you can follow. In the spirit of the discussion I'll let you choose whichever one you like.

stop deflecting and just provide the link you provided the picture from or just shut up about the picture, either way is up to you.

[PeterWilton]

Even the law doesn't matter, Kate. Science is what matters and the science shows that gender and sex are different things and are far more complicated than what we have traditionally believed.

[PeterWilton]

stop deflecting and just provide the link you provided the picture from or just shut up about the picture, either way is up to you.

Wow. That's rude. All I was doing was giving you the information you needed to find it, and others, for yourself. Because that was easier for me than linking it.

Anyway...

https://bit.ly/31tMg7P

[NottsClaret]

I'm not going to play your dumb game, NottsClaret. You have the only answer you're going to get.
If you would like to be more specific with your question, like are you talking about physiologically or gender identity? I might be more inclined to give you a more specific answer, but until then I'm going to assume you are referring to gender, and if so then you have my answer. I am baffled as to why my answer is unacceptable to you.

Why don't you answer the question? You obviously have a different answer, so let's hear it.

A woman is an adult female. That's my answer. Gender identity, as you've said, is a social construct. And not one which has helped women at all. I'm pretty keen on this, my mum and the missus are both strong lefty feminists. That's where I get all this from. Got to say, I'm on board with it.

But if being a woman is now a gender rather than a sex, then how's that expressed? Can you answer that without resorting to stereotype? I can understand how the whole idea is ridiculously insulting to many women. 'Living as a woman' is bandied about, well what does that mean?

[KateR]

Even the law doesn't matter, Kate. Science is what matters and the science shows that gender and sex are different things and are far more complicated than what we have traditionally believed.

you said something but I am not sure what beyond the law doesn't matter, when you say gender and sex are different you will have to expand a little more for me to understand what you are saying. Do you mean sex in sexuality for example?

Of course it is complicated and just to help you along in your tail of thinking, the law was changed by medical science, if you are trans then the law is extremely important and you should not dismiss this out of hand as you appear to have.

[KateR]

An “adult human female,” according to a seemingly common-sense slogan seen on the T-shirts and laptop stickers of those who oppose the idea that transgender women are women. They argue that gender itself is a false ideology masking the truth of biological sex difference. But “woman” is complicated in ways that have little to do with transgender issues. Only the delusional would deny biological differences between people, but only the uninformed can maintain that what the body means, and how it relates to social category, doesn’t vary between cultures and over time.

In 1949, the French philosopher Simone de Beauvoir asserted that “one is not born, but rather becomes a woman”; in doing so, she grasped how the raw facts of our bodies at birth are operated on by social processes to transform each of us into the people we become.

Segregated public-toilet doors marked Men, Women and Colored underscored how the legal recognition of a gender binary has been a privilege of whiteness.

Who gets “womaned” by society and subjected to misogynistic discrimination as a result, and who answers yes to the question, posed publicly or in the innermost realms of thought, as to whether they’re a woman or not? The intersection of those two conditions arguably marks the status of belonging to womanhood in ways that do not depend on reproductive biology.

While some people now embrace a rainbow of possibilities between the familiar pink and blue, others hew even tighter to a biological fundamentalism. Those willing to recognize new forms of gender feel anxious about misgendering others, while those who claim superior access to the truth are prepared to impose that truth upon those who disagree. What’s right—even what’s real—in such circumstances is not always self-evident. Labeling others contrary to how they have labeled themselves is an ethically loaded act, but “woman” remains a useful shorthand for the entanglement of femininity and social status regardless of biology—not as an identity, but as the name for an imagined community that honors the female, enacts the feminine and exceeds the limitations of a sexist society.

There is reams and reams of information, pick a side, like Notts has, it doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong in the grand scheme of things, but if you become a TERF then in my opinion you are on the wrong side.

[PeterWilton]

A woman is an adult female. That's my answer. Gender identity, as you've said, is a social construct. And not one which has helped women at all. I'm pretty keen on this, my mum and the missus are both strong lefty feminists. That's where I get all this from. Got to say, I'm on board with it.

But if being a woman is now a gender rather than a sex, then how's that expressed? Can you answer that without resorting to stereotype? I can understand how the whole idea is ridiculously insulting to many women. 'Living as a woman' is bandied about, well what does that mean?

I don't believe you. But that's OK, because if you're serious about listening to the experiences of trans men and women to better understand their struggles, and how they are in no way contrary to feminism, then I would encourage you to reach out to them and listen. I've never known a trans person who wasn't willing to share their experiences with someone who was interested in learning in good faith.

The best way to start is to search on YouTube. Start with a search for "transgender rights" and a John Oliver video. Then from there check out a video called "The Science of being transgender ft. Gigi gorgeous" for a very basic explanation of the science behind it, and then maybe the video called "things not to say to a trans person".

Then from there you'll need to be more specific with your search, because a lot of lgbt content on YouTube, particularly trans content, is demonetised (because transphobes keep mass reporting them) and therefore less likely to appear in the recommended section. Contrapoints and philosophy tube have some good content worth checking out, even if you ultimately decide that trans issues don't interest you.

There is plenty of information available online for anyone who wants it. There's also a **** ton of junk, but you'll who the junk comes from pretty quickly. They often share junk science about other issues too.

[PeterWilton]

you said something but I am not sure what beyond the law doesn't matter, when you say gender and sex are different you will have to expand a little more for me to understand what you are saying. Do you mean sex in sexuality for example?

Of course it is complicated and just to help you along in your tail of thinking, the law was changed by medical science, if you are trans then the law is extremely important and you should not dismiss this out of hand as you appear to have.

True, the laws does sometimes change as the science advances, but not always and not everywhere. That's why it's worth ignoring the law when the science is available and more upto date.

Regarding the difference between sex and gender. Its more complicated than this but generally I'm talking about sex being what is assigned at birth based on genitals, and gender being how one identifies relative to their sex. Probably the same understanding as you have.

[NottsClaret]

You read up on some feminists. I know, I know.. reading, listening to women. Awful isn't it, when you can get all the science you need from men on YouTube.

[Heathclaret]

Fair enough. You can ignore the overwhelming number of statistics out there and stick your head in the sand if it makes you feel better. Personally I'd say that's facilitating institutional and societal racism but hey ho.

In my line of work, I see people living in poverty, existing on benefits, trying to make ends meet.

It may well be their own fault, some of them, but the people I see, none of them are black. Poverty doesn’t see the colour of someone’s skin.



There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.

I’m not burying my head in the sand, I just don’t agree with you.

I don’t understand what I’m supposed to be feeling better about.

[bpgburn]

The best way to start is to search on YouTube. Start with a search for "transgender rights" and a John Oliver video. Then from there check out a video called "The Science of being transgender ft. Gigi gorgeous" for a very basic explanation of the science behind it, and then maybe the video called "things not to say to a trans person".

Ahhh with that search history "soapy t1t w**K" is making sense Charlie. (one for the older members)

[KateR]

True, the laws does sometimes change as the science advances, but not always and not everywhere. That's why it's worth ignoring the law when the science is available and more upto date.

Regarding the difference between sex and gender. Its more complicated than this but generally I'm talking about sex being what is assigned at birth based on genitals, and gender being how one identifies relative to their sex. Probably the same understanding as you have.

I have to say, and with no criticism, that everything you post seems to contradict something else you posted within this debate/discussion, this is why I think it is difficult for people to comprehend exactly what you are trying to say.

Your discussion on white privilege, you were adamant that white and skin colour had no bearing, and that it was all society. Then you post, that yes I am privileged because of my skin colour.

Then you post a picture, which is all about a trans guy deliberately going into female toilets because he doesn't agree with the US law.

After that you post and say, even the law doesn't matter, so why is he doing this?

The trans person in the toilet is unacceptable, try to listen/understand why I say this please. He is clearly, to anyone looking at him, not going to be "outed" and it would be offensive to me for him to be sharing and I would tell him so. He can safely go into any male toilets he wants, he is not using female toilets because he has to or because the law says he has to, he is a trans activist. The toilet issue is very delicate, with people on both sides at the edges making noise, while the vast majority in the middle don't really care that much, the big issue in the law differences between the UK & the states is that due male prejudice, they would ridicule a trans female in that space for the most part who can not pass. While women will tend to leave and complain to someone about a male "in drag" using the female toilet, just to be clear this in not in every case, however that is what trans people fear most, its the ridicule and lack of acceptance.

Finally, I was surprised by your recommendations of utube and the internet in terms of it being a discussion point or a place to understand learn, have you ever sat down with a trans person and tried to understand the issues they have, I don't mean someone who has transitioned and living full time, I mean people who are on a journey? Have you the faintest idea regarding the trans spectrum and how the law effects trans people in the UK and how GIC effects them due to the law, which is the same law in the US?

I am not trying to insult, I am trying to gauge your knowledge about a subject you seem to be commenting upon like a leading light in that community, which now I am very doubtful of.

[dsr]

Yes, he is a trans man, and yes, he is in women's bathrooms. He was making a point against Republican legislation in his start that if passed would force him to use women's bathrooms.

I shared it because dsr brought up bathroom usage for trans people, which is always where this discussion leads for some reason, and thought I'd nip it in the bud by asking him a question he would have some trouble answering.

Stupid questions asked by stupid people are always difficult to answer.

We'll just have to disagree. You think that anyone, male of female or both or neither, should be able to use any set of toilets they choose. I don't. That's an end of it. If you want me to describe a potential law that would be entirely logical, entirely transparent, and suit everybody with no exceptions, I can't do it. Obviously if you want a law that exactly matches your own particular brand of bigotry, that's easier to do.

And very few trans men look like that anyway. There aren't many gentic-females with beards like that unless they are well on their way to full scale gender swap; and gender swap people, by and large, aren't affected by this so-called Republican legislation. The only one I know for sure about is South Carolina, one of the first, and their law was quite clear that you had to use the toilets of the gender described on your birth certificate. And of course people who undertake gender swaps get new birth cretificates.

[Bfcboyo]

Not to go off the topic of cancel culture , why would we, but has anybody seen the film Split? If the main character of the film had a favourite messageboard then a thread he was heavily involved in would read something like this thread reads . Just before the star man ate his neighbour perhaps ?or just ran around on all fours a lot, who knows. I'm not suggesting that this thread has somebody with a multiple personality complex issue, just that if it did and it definitely has then the world would make a lot more sense.

[AndrewJB]

Stupid questions asked by stupid people are always difficult to answer.

We'll just have to disagree. You think that anyone, male of female or both or neither, should be able to use any set of toilets they choose. I don't. That's an end of it. If you want me to describe a potential law that would be entirely logical, entirely transparent, and suit everybody with no exceptions, I can't do it. Obviously if you want a law that exactly matches your own particular brand of bigotry, that's easier to do.

And very few trans men look like that anyway. There aren't many gentic-females with beards like that unless they are well on their way to full scale gender swap; and gender swap people, by and large, aren't affected by this so-called Republican legislation. The only one I know for sure about is South Carolina, one of the first, and their law was quite clear that you had to use the toilets of the gender described on your birth certificate. And of course people who undertake gender swaps get new birth cretificates.

When you have guests to your house, how do your bathrooms work? Are they gender specific?

[PeterWilton]

I have to say, and with no criticism, that everything you post seems to contradict something else you posted within this debate/discussion, this is why I think it is difficult for people to comprehend exactly what you are trying to say.

Your discussion on white privilege, you were adamant that white and skin colour had no bearing, and that it was all society. Then you post, that yes I am privileged because of my skin colour.

Then you post a picture, which is all about a trans guy deliberately going into female toilets because he doesn't agree with the US law.

After that you post and say, even the law doesn't matter, so why is he doing this?

The trans person in the toilet is unacceptable, try to listen/understand why I say this please. He is clearly, to anyone looking at him, not going to be "outed" and it would be offensive to me for him to be sharing and I would tell him so. He can safely go into any male toilets he wants, he is not using female toilets because he has to or because the law says he has to, he is a trans activist. The toilet issue is very delicate, with people on both sides at the edges making noise, while the vast majority in the middle don't really care that much, the big issue in the law differences between the UK & the states is that due male prejudice, they would ridicule a trans female in that space for the most part who can not pass. While women will tend to leave and complain to someone about a male "in drag" using the female toilet, just to be clear this in not in every case, however that is what trans people fear most, its the ridicule and lack of acceptance.

Finally, I was surprised by your recommendations of utube and the internet in terms of it being a discussion point or a place to understand learn, have you ever sat down with a trans person and tried to understand the issues they have, I don't mean someone who has transitioned and living full time, I mean people who are on a journey? Have you the faintest idea regarding the trans spectrum and how the law effects trans people in the UK and how GIC effects them due to the law, which is the same law in the US?

I am not trying to insult, I am trying to gauge your knowledge about a subject you seem to be commenting upon like a leading light in that community, which now I am very doubtful of.

I don't understand how one person can consistently get so many things wrong accidentally.

"Your discussion on white privilege, you were adamant that white and skin colour had no bearing, and that it was all society. Then you post, that yes I am privileged because of my skin colour."

You're going to need to provide a quote for this one. You've misunderstood something and I'm not about guess at what it was. I'm happy to correct you when you do.


" Then you post a picture, which is all about a trans guy deliberately going into female toilets because he doesn't agree with the US law."

He used those toilets because a law that transphobes were trying to pass would have made it a crime for him to use men's toilets. He was making a point. A good one.


"After that you post and say, even the law doesn't matter, so why is he doing this?"

You've had a memory fart here. I wasn't saying that law didn't matter. My comment about the law kit nattering was in a completely different context and had nothing to do with the law that transphobes were trying to pass. I was explaining that the legal definition of transgender doesn't matter because all that should matter is the scientific definition. You should review the context and you'll see your mistake.


"The trans person in the toilet is unacceptable, try to listen/understand why I say this please."

Yep. But that's what transphobes were trying to demand happen. They want him criminally punished if he uses mens toilets. Do you understand his point yet?


"have you ever sat down with a trans person and tried to understand the issues they have, I don't mean someone who has transitioned and living full time, I mean people who are on a journey?"

Yes. Almost every day. And no, I've never pretended to be a leading light in the trans community, in fact I have already expressed in this thread the wish that people would listen to trans people instead of me, but I guess you missed that in the middle of trying to judge me and my integrity.

[PeterWilton]

You read up on some feminists. I know, I know.. reading, listening to women. Awful isn't it, when you can get all the science you need from men on YouTube.

What is it that I have said that makes you think I'm a misogynist? Please be specific so that I can correct your interpretation.

[NottsClaret]

Turtle, you’re more lost in an echo chamber than anyone on here, always have been. I do agree with you on loads of stuff but this is a real blind spot for you and your misogyny is the base for it.

You subconsciously- or maybe consciously- disregard any opposing female view or writing on this and simply dig down further, seeking out more confirmation from males about how males should impinge on women’s rights because they’ll be upset if they can’t.

But I’ve never seen a shred of evidence of any compassion or empathy for the predicament and concerns of actual women in any of your posts. That’s the misogyny.

You used to reference actual science rather than offer links to YouTube rants but not anymore. It’s half baked pseudo science, under a previous pseudonym you once said trans women were women because they had a ‘lady brain’. It’s a ludicrous sexist trope and you’re still peddling this nonsense now.

[Jenny55]

When you have guests to your house, how do your bathrooms work? Are they gender specific?

What relevance have domestic bathrooms got to public or work toilets where you can have multiple users in them? It is generally accepted that domestic toilets are for the use of either sex as they are for sole occupancy whilst in use.

[tim_noone]

What relevance have domestic bathrooms got to public or work toilets where you can have multiple users in them? It is generally accepted that domestic toilets are for the use of either sex as they are for sole occupancy whilst in use.

Why do some have two wash basins in then? I never did understand the concept.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Why do some have two wash basins in then? I never did understand the concept.

So the mrs can have a shave at the same time

[Jenny55]

Why do some have two wash basins in then? I never did understand the concept.

Man and wife? Two children? Still no relevance to public toilets. Personally I have never lived in a house large enough to have two wash basins in one bathroom.

[PeterWilton]

Peter, you’re more lost in an echo chamber than anyone on here, always have been. I do agree with you on loads of stuff but this is a real blind spot for you and your misogyny is the base for it.

You subconsciously- or maybe consciously- disregard any opposing female view or writing on this and simply dig down further, seeking out more confirmation from males about how males should impinge on women’s rights because they’ll be upset if they can’t.

But I’ve never seen a shred of evidence of any compassion or empathy for the predicament and concerns of actual women in any of your posts. That’s the misogyny.

You used to reference actual science rather than offer links to YouTube rants but not anymore. It’s half baked pseudo science, under a previous pseudonym you once said trans women were women because they had a ‘lady brain’. It’s a ludicrous sexist trope and you’re still peddling this nonsense now.

This is full of lies.

I recommended some YouTube viewing FOR YOU because you expressed an interest in learning more and from transgender people. They weren't intended to be scientific examples, they were intended to allow you, with an open mind, to learn more about the topic in an easily digestible way. And now you're criticising me for it?


"You subconsciously- or maybe consciously- disregard any opposing female view or writing on this and simply dig down further, seeking out more confirmation from males about how males should impinge on women’s rights because they’ll be upset if they can’t."

I have asked you to tell me what it is you've read from me that makes you think I'm sexist and you have refused to answer me. I suspect its because you are being wilfully dishonest and are resorting to smear tactics which is a common strategy adopted against feminists by trans exclusionary feminists. We're not feminist enough because we want to include trans women in the fight for equality. I'm not calling you a Terf, not yet, but you do share their strategy.

I have never consciously or otherwise excluded opinions of anyone based on anything other than the validity of their opinions and the arguments supporting them.



"But I’ve never seen a shred of evidence of any compassion or empathy for the predicament and concerns of actual women in any of your posts. That’s the misogyny."

"actual woman" you say. Because trans women aren't "actual women"? OK, now I'm calling you a Terf. I think we're done here. "actual women" is where I have lost interest in discussing trans issues with you.

If you decide you want to change your attitudes, I recommend that viewing list from earlier. It would be a good start for someone such as yourself who has a prejudice they might want to get over.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Morning Charles

[TVC15]

Why do some have two wash basins in then? I never did understand the concept.

In case they both need a p-iss (burnley fans of course !)

[NottsClaret]

This is full of lies.

I recommended some YouTube viewing FOR YOU because you expressed an interest in learning more and from transgender people. They weren't intended to be scientific examples, they were intended to allow you, with an open mind, to learn more about the topic in an easily digestible way. And now you're criticising me for it?


"You subconsciously- or maybe consciously- disregard any opposing female view or writing on this and simply dig down further, seeking out more confirmation from males about how males should impinge on women’s rights because they’ll be upset if they can’t."

I have asked you to tell me what it is you've read from me that makes you think I'm sexist and you have refused to answer me. I suspect its because you are being wilfully dishonest and are resorting to smear tactics which is a common strategy adopted against feminists by trans exclusionary feminists. We're not feminist enough because we want to include trans women in the fight for equality. I'm not calling you a Terf, not yet, but you do share their strategy.

I have never consciously or otherwise excluded opinions of anyone based on anything other than the validity of their opinions and the arguments supporting them.



"But I’ve never seen a shred of evidence of any compassion or empathy for the predicament and concerns of actual women in any of your posts. That’s the misogyny."

"actual woman" you say. Because trans women aren't "actual women"? OK, now I'm calling you a Terf. I think we're done here. "actual women" is where I have lost interest in discussing trans issues with you.

If you decide you want to change your attitudes, I recommend that viewing list from earlier. It would be a good start for someone such as yourself who has a prejudice they might want to get over.

Do you still think trans women have 'lady brains'?

There's no need to patronise me Turtle, with YouTube videos which look like they're off Sesame Street. Try reading books by scientists, qualified in their field rather than gleaning your mantra from incels on Reddit forums.

[PeterWilton]

For anyone who isn't NottsClaret and isn't prejudiced, or is and wants to learn more so that they can overcome their prejudice, the video (or YouTube rant, as Notts calls it, which watching it) can provide a good starting point to understand some of the science behind transgender ism.

There is also about a dozen links to the National Library of Medicine in the description which NottsClaret might have seen had they bothered to even attempt to learn, but what can you do? Maybe some of you will find this information useful. <3

I forgot to link it
https://youtube.com/watch?v=MitqjSYtwrQ&vl=en-GB

[PeterWilton]

Do you still think trans women have 'lady brains'?

There's no need to patronise me Turtle, with YouTube videos which look like they're off Sesame Street. Try reading books by scientists, qualified in their field rather than gleaning your mantra from incels on Reddit forums.

Lady brains isn't a term I would use, but there is science to suggest that the brains of males and females do have certain characteristical differences, and if you had bothered to follow my recommendations for you then you would have learned this. Instead you just called the recommendations "YouTube rants" and then suggesting that trans women aren't women which has killed any desire I had to help you with this.

[PeterWilton]

Also "try reading books by scientists" is a really awful suggestion because of how quickly they become outdated as we learn more about what it means to be transgender, and the science advances. A book on the subject even from 10 years ago would likely be long out of date.

Instead of books on this, read the science, and if you can't understand the science then find a "science communicator" you trust and let them explain it for you.

[NottsClaret]

Ha.. yeah, thanks for your offer of help.

Tell you what, time to help you out. This isn't a YouTube video by some crank off the internet. It's a book, written by an actual professor in neurology, and a phD in physiological psychology. Written in 2019 no less. She's not part of the transgender debate, so has no 'dog in the fight' as the kids say. It's hugely important and fascinating for me as a parent as it explains how we're shaping the brain with our ideas of gender rather than the other way round.

There is a terrible twist though Turtle, she's a female. Just try and ignore that, get off YouTube and Reddit, learn a bit of genuine, unbiased science and open your mind.

In fact, I'll even provide a link to the Guardian review of it, so you I know it won't be on your 'block' list.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... ina-rippon

[tim_noone]

Bickering at anytime is poor......but pre 9am?

[PeterWilton]

Ha.. yeah, thanks for your offer of help.

Tell you what, time to help you out. This isn't a YouTube video by some crank off the internet. It's a book, written by an actual professor in neurology, and a phD in physiological psychology. Written in 2019 no less. She's not part of the transgender debate, so has no 'dog in the fight' as the kids say. It's hugely important and fascinating for me as a parent as it explains how we're shaping the brain with our ideas of gender rather than the other way round.

There is a terrible twist though Turtle, she's a female. Just try and ignore that, get off YouTube and Reddit, learn a bit of genuine, unbiased science and open your mind.

In fact, I'll even provide a link to the Guardian review of it, so you I know it won't be on your 'block' list.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... ina-rippon

Why would that help me at all? I agree that gender is a social construct, so why then would I need to read a book to validate that opinion? If you want ti interest me then recommend something that doesn't merely confirm my existing opinions.

Wait, are you under the impression that I think we have gendered brains AND that gender is a social construct? Lol. Surely if you had taken a few seconds to think you'd have realised that actually that doesn't make sense.

[PeterWilton]

Also, don't reccomend books. Even if they run contrary to my opinions I'm not going to buy them. They're too long and not peer reviewed. Any dumb **** can write one.

Instead send me science. Something peer reviewed preferably. Or even a video if you wish, and ill find the science it's referencing either from their sources or by googling for it.

[NottsClaret]

Why would that help me at all? I agree that gender is a social construct, so why then would I need to read a book to validate that opinion? If you want ti interest me then recommend something that doesn't merely confirm my existing opinions.

Wait, are you under the impression that I think we have gendered brains AND that gender is a social construct? Lol. Surely if you had taken a few seconds to think you'd have realised that actually that doesn't make sense.

You're so close now Turtle. Just need to make that last step. So we're agreed there's no such thing as 'lady brains' and 'man brains', there's just the human brain and male and female bodies. Everything else is social construct and stereotyping. Have we got common ground to this point?