Last night of the Proms

[KateR]

Plus not all Americans are fat or lazy, not sure where the lazy came from as I've not really heard that before.

[Colburn_Claret]

You said

Part of living in a free society is sometimes you have to accept things you don't agree with or like.

Yet you seem unwilling to accept this thing that you don’t agree with.

We cant all have our way. Someone has to lose out. Those who want to change the last night of the proms are the ones who cannot accept things as they are, as they've always been. Why is it always the right who have to cede ground, give way, change our habits and customs. It's not even as if there is a groundswell of support for these changes, just a noisy minority of myopic left wingers.
There was a time when the left were the 'liberal' wing. What happened to that freedom they fought for. Today its there way , full stop. My liberties and the majority of the country don't matter at all. Its no wonder it has lost so much support

[Rileybobs]

We cant all have our way. Someone has to lose out. Those who want to change the last night of the proms are the ones who cannot accept things as they are, as they've always been. Why is it always the right who have to cede ground, give way, change our habits and customs. It's not even as if there is a groundswell of support for these changes, just a noisy minority of myopic left wingers.
There was a time when the left were the 'liberal' wing. What happened to that freedom they fought for. Today its there way , full stop. My liberties and the majority of the country don't matter at all. Its no wonder it has lost so much support

Why is this a left v right issue?

[AndrewJB]

Plus not all Americans are fat or lazy, not sure where the lazy came from as I've not really heard that before.

Maybe it’s a Canadian thing. I was trying to give examples of negative nationalism.

[tim_noone]

Plus not all Americans are fat or lazy, not sure where the lazy came from as I've not really heard that before.

You fat lazy mutha fu..a!! Is common practice along with the "N" word in America. Thanks to Karen and Ken......tv

[Siddo]

Possibly the funniest thread so far this year.
Only an observation, but I am willing to bet that every person getting upset about the possibility of the removal of a couple of songs sung by drunken toffs once a year voted leave.

[RMutt]

I don’t believe they are drunk. I think they are actually like that sober.

[KateR]

lol, the use of words like toffs in today's age says a lot, I suppose all the remoaners will be doffing caps to them as well, good to see all is well and normal in world.

[Colburn_Claret]

Why is this a left v right issue?

Please tell me who else is bothered by a load of Patriotic songs, belted out to a lot of flag waving enthusiasts.

[Rileybobs]

Please tell me who else is bothered by a load of Patriotic songs, belted out to a lot of flag waving enthusiasts.

I don’t get you. Why would being on the left or the right have anything to do with your thoughts regarding whether historical songs are fit for modern consumption?

[timshorts]

The proms are a fantastic part of the classical music scene. There is, usually, something for all in each year's series. Plenty of stuff that I wouldn't waste time walking as far as the post box for, but usually at least 2 or 3 that I'd be willing to pay good money to attend.
Unfortunately, it then has historically ended with a shitshow put on for a baying crowd of hooray Henry's where they play the same moronic lollipops that possess nothing in the way of musical content to challenge the mind.
It's like being allowed to go 2-0 up at old Trafford every year, but then knowing that they will win it 3-2 in the end with a dodgy penalty because that is in the pre-arranged script and its written into the programme.
Get rid of it. It's garbage.

[KateR]

everyone has an opinion and so they should, what I don't understand is why some people who don't agree with the end, want to get rid of it and purely for selfish reasons, rather than saying, ok it's not for me I'll watch something else or go out, no different to not clicking on threads you have no interest in.

[Colburn_Claret]

I don’t get you. Why would being on the left or the right have anything to do with your thoughts regarding whether historical songs are fit for modern consumption?

Why not leave the answer to that, to the people who attend the proms. Tickets for the last night, the most popular night of the whole season, will be harder to get than any other night.
Do those people, and there are people who come from all over the world to attend, think those historical songs are fit for modern consumption. Why can't you just let people enjoy themselves, without trying to foist your own bitter twisted opinion on the occasion.
I was talking about the minority trying to twist everything their own way, rather than accepting that others just don't agree. You're a prime example. You don't like it, so no one else should be allowed to. Let's create a country where Rileybobs is the only opinion that matters.
True democracy

[TheFamilyCat]

I think Colburn may have done a lot of foot stamping today.

[Rileybobs]

Why not leave the answer to that, to the people who attend the proms. Tickets for the last night, the most popular night of the whole season, will be harder to get than any other night.
Do those people, and there are people who come from all over the world to attend, think those historical songs are fit for modern consumption. Why can't you just let people enjoy themselves, without trying to foist your own bitter twisted opinion on the occasion.
I was talking about the minority trying to twist everything their own way, rather than accepting that others just don't agree. You're a prime example. You don't like it, so no one else should be allowed to. Let's create a country where Rileybobs is the only opinion that matters.
True democracy

Where have I given a bitter twisted opinion on the occasion? And where have I said whether I do or don’t like the Last Night of the Proms? Bizarre.

[Colburn_Claret]

Where have I given a bitter twisted opinion on the occasion? And where have I said whether I do or don’t like the Last Night of the Proms? Bizarre.

If you're not, its bizarre you engage in a discussion with me about my defending of the status quo.

I believe in the last night of the proms, but I find it strange you do

[Wile E Coyote]

its odd how only now there is something topical about these issues at the proms.
How come no one probably any of you know has EVER raised this issue as debatable in years gone by.

[MrTopTier]

It is going ahead with the songs left in.

Colburn can calm down now.

[gandhisflipflop]

Whether the BBC keep them in or not, the fact that there are people arrogant enough to request the removal of such songs shows we have a massive problem in society with intolerance, and has been that way for a long time. Yes, to some this may just be about a few songs but to me that's missing the point entirely and it runs much deeper than that. This week it's a few songs, next week a TV show, and so on and so on.

[Rileybobs]

If you're not, its bizarre you engage in a discussion with me about my defending of the status quo.

I believe in the last night of the proms, but I find it strange you do

I engaged into a discussion with you about why you think this issue is a matter of left v right. It’s not my fault that you didn’t answer my question and went off on a wild rant.

[Devils_Advocate]

Interesting that this story comes from the Times when you consider that story seems to have propagated from the Times own music critic Richard Morrison back in July

It was an earlier proposal from Morrison, who has always disliked the Last Night of the Proms, and who now sees using Black Lives Matter (and its explosive nature) as a chance to pursue his own long-standing personal view of the proms

Morrison has found an ally in Finnish conductor Dalia Staveska who will be conducting BBC Symphony Orchestra at London's Royal Albert Hall and is indeed a supporter of BLM and see's the removal of these songs as a step forward. As she raised concerns to the BBC then in respect of her position they would give it some consideration but there is no evidence to show the BBC are seriously considering this proposal

As usual it appears that the press have whipped up a frenzy around a non story about some 70 odd year old music critic and one prominent persons own thoughts (free speech and that) and all to easily got the usual right wing numpties frothing at the mouth

Of course it is a story now with the usual suspects on both sides getting upset about nothing but in reality this just another great example of how our press can drive the agenda and be dangerously divisive by lighting the blue touch paper for a problem that doesnt exist and standing back and watching it go off

[KateR]

more one sided input being selective in insults and finger pointing but covered in a little magic dust with something that might have been worth discussing.

[aggi]

It's always amusing watching all these people who are so vocal about people getting worked up over nothing getting worked up over nothing.

[aggi]

Why is this a left v right issue?

Because in some people's eyes everything is. Modern politics, and seemingly life, for some is like football where you pick your team and defend it regardless of what is actually happening.

[TheFamilyCat]

Funny how some posters convinced themselves that this was definitely happening and got themselves all in a tizzy.

[nil_desperandum]

It is going ahead with the songs left in.

Colburn can calm down now.

I don't want to fan the flames, but that's not actually true.
As I referred to earlier today, there'll be no singers and no audience, so no flags etc,, (and of course a much reduced orchestra), so we won't be getting the songs as such, but new orchestral arrangements of them.
Incidentally, this issue isn't a new one. There has been discussion about whether these songs should be included for decades. More than one conductor has been replaced or resigned over the issue. Notably there was big controversy about their inclusion in 1990 at the time of the Gulf War, (the songs stayed the conductor was replaced). Then of course, they were not played following the 9 / 11 atrocity.
So those who think that this is a new story stirred up by trendy liberals in 2020 are very much mistaken.

[KateR]

it's funny how some posters still haven't a clue what the thread was about but still want to show they are superior in there mumbling's

[tiger76]

Possibly the funniest thread so far this year.
Only an observation, but I am willing to bet that every person getting upset about the possibility of the removal of a couple of songs sung by drunken toffs once a year voted leave.

What all 17.4m of them, I voted leave, but 2020 seems as relevant a year as any to discuss British history, and whether these songs are appropriate in our modern multi cultural society, as far as I'm aware no-one is suggesting that this tradition is dispensed with, but why is it unreasonable too scrutinise
the lyrics, many including myself probably don't even know the entire songs, and the connotations that some people may see in them, so if this brings the meaning of the songs for better or worse out into the open, so they can be assessed what's the problem.

[dsr]

Why would anti-slavery protesters want the removal of a song whose main refrain is "Britons never, never, never shall be slaves"? Surely a noble ideal?

Obviously there is a triumphal element whereby it's celebrating the successes of the Royal Navy in keeping would-be invaders from our shores and therefore not allowing them to impose slavery on a free land. But that's something worth celebrating.

[martin_p]

It’s an odd one this. You either like the Last Night and therefore presumably enjoy hearing/singing the songs in question or don’t like the Last Night so presumably don’t watch it. If you don’t watch it why do you care what is sung?

[Damo]

Another safe space lost for all the bedwetters out there. This country really is Hitler

[Devils_Advocate]

What all 17.4m of them, I voted leave, but 2020 seems as relevant a year as any to discuss British history, and whether these songs are appropriate in our modern multi cultural society, as far as I'm aware no-one is suggesting that this tradition is dispensed with, but why is it unreasonable too scrutinise
the lyrics, many including myself probably don't even know the entire songs, and the connotations that some people may see in them, so if this brings the meaning of the songs for better or worse out into the open, so they can be assessed what's the problem.

I think youve done whats known in the business as a 'Mark Francois'. Siddo wasn't saying that every leaver is upset about this but rather that all those losing their bottom lip over it will have voted leave

Not passing any comment on the statement myself (before certain posters get upset that people aren't having the exact discussion they want them to have) but just clearing up the misunderstanding for you

[tiger76]

I think youve done whats known in the business as a 'Mark Francois'. Siddo wasn't saying that every leaver is upset about this but rather that all those losing their bottom lip over it will have voted leave

Not passing any comment on the statement myself (before certain posters get upset that people aren't having the exact discussion they want them to have) but just clearing up the misunderstanding for you

Yes I was being slightly flippant in my reply, TBH I've no great interest either way about this, in my list of priorities it's not even on my radar, I just find it amusing that both extremes get so worked up over something so trivial, but if there is going to be a discussion around the future of the proms, then it should be a sensible fact lead debate, ( I know that's hard in the era of soundbites and fake news) There's plenty of things that were mainstream in the 1970's for example, that society finds unacceptable in this day and age, that being said there does appear to be an element of people, who want to completely overthrow centuries of traditions because it doesn't satisfy their tastes, and that's a dangerous precedent to set, there's may things that I dislike or disapprove off, but I accept that many others find them entertaining, so live and let live is my motto.

The media are getting their knickers in a twist over a non-story, when there's far more pressing matters that need highlighting, I know it's the silly season, but surely they can find something more important than this to create a furore around, is it any wonder the print media is dying a death when this is the best they can find to report, where's all the hard hitting investigative journalism of years ago, when reporters would dig into the affairs of the government, and other public servants, I'd be more concerned about issues suck as those, and the abolishing of the HOL, if we truly want to live in a more meritocratically based society.

The problem with this site is never the twain shall met, and both sides will argue till the cows come home their stance is correct, no matter what evidence is produced to support the opposing viewpoint, this is why many threads end up in tit-for-tat bickering, and some valued contributors sadly no longer post.

I suspect if you interviewed the average man or woman in the street and asked them about this subject, they'd say they had no firm opinions either way, and they have much more pressing issues in their day-to-day lives, especially in the wake of the covid crisis.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yes I was being slightly flippant in my reply, TBH I've no great interest either way about this, in my list of priorities it's not even on my radar, I just find it amusing that both extremes get so worked up over something so trivial, but if there is going to be a discussion around the future of the proms, then it should be a sensible fact lead debate, ( I know that's hard in the era of soundbites and fake news) There's plenty of things that were mainstream in the 1970's for example, that society finds unacceptable in this day and age, that being said there does appear to be an element of people, who want to completely overthrow centuries of traditions because it doesn't satisfy their tastes, and that's a dangerous precedent to set, there's may things that I dislike or disapprove off, but I accept that many others find them entertaining, so live and let live is my motto.

The media are getting their knickers in a twist over a non-story, when there's far more pressing matters that need highlighting, I know it's the silly season, but surely they can find something more important than this to create a furore around, is it any wonder the print media is dying a death when this is the best they can find to report, where's all the hard hitting investigative journalism of years ago, when reporters would dig into the affairs of the government, and other public servants, I'd be more concerned about issues suck as those, and the abolishing of the HOL, if we truly want to live in a more meritocratically based society.

The problem with this site is never the twain shall met, and both sides will argue till the cows come home their stance is correct, no matter what evidence is produced to support the opposing viewpoint, this is why many threads end up in tit-for-tat bickering, and some valued contributors sadly no longer post.

I suspect if you interviewed the average man or woman in the street and asked them about this subject, they'd say they had no firm opinions either way, and they have much more pressing issues in their day-to-day lives, especially in the wake of the covid crisis.

I agree with you and saw this story the other day on Twitter and thought it would make an appearance on here at some point. Story's like this are a brilliant distraction for the serious issues the press and the public should be really concerned about

[RingoMcCartney]

So where does the lyrics "Britons never never never shall be slaves, come from?

"Between the 16th and 18th centuries, pirates operating out of north Africa enslaved thousands of men, women and children from the British Isles. 

"The famous lines from the song ‘Rule Britannia’ proudly proclaim that “Britannia rules the waves. Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.” Dating from the 1740s, ‘Rule Britannia’ expressed Britons’ pride in the Royal Navy and not only, its role in cementing Britain’s position as an imperial superpower, but ensuring that Britain was militarily strong enough to prevent Britons being taken from the British isles and used as slaves.

Between the beginning of the 16th century and the end of the 18th, thousands of Britons were slaves, seized by Barbary corsairs, those infamous privateers and pirates that operated out of north Africa. These men, women and children endured miserable conditions – invariably with little prospect of ever seeing their homes again. The Royal Navy’s inability to protect British citizens indicates its weakness at the time.

The Barbary corsair enterprise, which included not only taking European ships, goods and captives at sea but also raiding coastal settlements, was far larger than many people imagine. Estimates are that, across three centuries, corsairs operating out of Barbary coast ports (in north Africa) captured and enslaved more than a million Europeans. 

Armed with their new technology and maritime know-how, the corsairs burst out of the Mediterranean and began raiding the British Isles coast – often led by the British renegades. By the 1620s and 1630s, fleets of corsairs were taking local fishermen from their boats and attacking the coasts of Devon and Cornwall. In 1631 – in arguably their most infamous raid – they sacked the Irish town of Baltimore and abducted more than 100 men, women and children.

during the second half of the 17th century the Royal Navy was transformed into a formidable weapon of war – growing in size, becoming increasingly professional and now bristling with cutting-edge maritime technology. By the end of the century, it was more than capable of dealing effectively with the corsairs. 

In 1665, a British naval force set fire to the corsair fleet in the harbour at Tunis and then attacked Algiers and liberated British captives there. In 1671, a British force burned the Algerian fleet anchored at Bougie, and in 1676 another destroyed the corsair fleet in the harbour at Tripoli.

Eventually, the various Barbary States were compelled to sign nonaggression treaties, enforceable now thanks to a strong British naval presence. The Barbary corsairs were not entirely eliminated until the 19th century, but by the middle of the 18th century, when ‘Rule Britannia’ was thrilling British audiences, the threat they posed to Britain was all but over. Britons could at last really feel that they never again would be slaves."

[RingoMcCartney]

http://thomasfowellbuxton.org.uk/tfb/bl ... the-waves/

https://historyhouse.co.uk/articles/british_slaves.html

And the BBC , when theres no paying audience in the Albert Hall to tell them to shove their political correct anti British marxism, want to cancel a song that celebrates the ending of Britons, no longer having to fear being snatched by Barbary slave ships.

[RingoMcCartney]

Please, please, please BBC. Make this happen.

Couldn't agree more.

If they do it's only going to encourage even more people to stop paying the, enforced through fear of jail, regressive poll tax, AKA the TV licence fee. Which will only hasten the BBCs inevitable demise.

[Devils_Advocate]

And the BBC , when theres no paying audience in the Albert Hall to tell them to shove their political correct anti British marxism, want to cancel a song that celebrates the ending of Britons, no longer having to fear being snatched by Barbary slave ships.

Any evidence "the BBC".........."want to cancel" these songs?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53895000

[tim_noone]

So where does the lyrics "Britons never never never shall be slaves, come from?

"Between the 16th and 18th centuries, pirates operating out of north Africa enslaved thousands of men, women and children from the British Isles. 

"The famous lines from the song ‘Rule Britannia’ proudly proclaim that “Britannia rules the waves. Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.” Dating from the 1740s, ‘Rule Britannia’ expressed Britons’ pride in the Royal Navy and not only, its role in cementing Britain’s position as an imperial superpower, but ensuring that Britain was militarily strong enough to prevent Britons being taken from the British isles and used as slaves.

Between the beginning of the 16th century and the end of the 18th, thousands of Britons were slaves, seized by Barbary corsairs, those infamous privateers and pirates that operated out of north Africa. These men, women and children endured miserable conditions – invariably with little prospect of ever seeing their homes again. The Royal Navy’s inability to protect British citizens indicates its weakness at the time.

The Barbary corsair enterprise, which included not only taking European ships, goods and captives at sea but also raiding coastal settlements, was far larger than many people imagine. Estimates are that, across three centuries, corsairs operating out of Barbary coast ports (in north Africa) captured and enslaved more than a million Europeans. 

Armed with their new technology and maritime know-how, the corsairs burst out of the Mediterranean and began raiding the British Isles coast – often led by the British renegades. By the 1620s and 1630s, fleets of corsairs were taking local fishermen from their boats and attacking the coasts of Devon and Cornwall. In 1631 – in arguably their most infamous raid – they sacked the Irish town of Baltimore and abducted more than 100 men, women and children.

during the second half of the 17th century the Royal Navy was transformed into a formidable weapon of war – growing in size, becoming increasingly professional and now bristling with cutting-edge maritime technology. By the end of the century, it was more than capable of dealing effectively with the corsairs. 

In 1665, a British naval force set fire to the corsair fleet in the harbour at Tunis and then attacked Algiers and liberated British captives there. In 1671, a British force burned the Algerian fleet anchored at Bougie, and in 1676 another destroyed the corsair fleet in the harbour at Tripoli.

Eventually, the various Barbary States were compelled to sign nonaggression treaties, enforceable now thanks to a strong British naval presence. The Barbary corsairs were not entirely eliminated until the 19th century, but by the middle of the 18th century, when ‘Rule Britannia’ was thrilling British audiences, the threat they posed to Britain was all but over. Britons could at last really feel that they never again would be slaves."

Tell us something we dont know Ringo...

[RingoMcCartney]

Any evidence "the BBC".........."want to cancel" these songs?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53895000

U-turn.

There's gonna be some very disappointed North London dinner party goers.

[RingoMcCartney]

Tell us something we dont know Ringo...

You may already Tim. You may also be surprised about the number that have no idea.

[tim_noone]

You may already Tim. You may also be surprised about the number that have no idea.

[KateR]

it was never evidenced that the BBC "wanted to cancel" it was more the evidence of the majority of media outlets stating that certain people/groups wanted the BBC to cancel the songs, as evidenced by the "the red book", that get's shown as evidence of so many things on threads, within this site but you knew that all along.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/ ... -the-proms

You can add this thread to, Cancel Culture and/or Full Stops, it's just endemic of what is happening in so many places via the noisy minority, sometimes quite rightly, other times not.

[Colburn_Claret]

I engaged into a discussion with you about why you think this issue is a matter of left v right. It’s not my fault that you didn’t answer my question and went off on a wild rant.

I've nothing to rant about, yours and the lefts opinion is a bad smell, it doesn't hurt me.
If you'd read my posts I'd already stated that only the left wing would have objection to a load of flag waving promenaders singing patriotic songs. If that doesn't explain why I think it is a left v right scenario, I don’t know how I could make myself clearer.

[Murger]

Oh dear

https://t.co/uvPNlqqdj7

[Inchy]

I honestly don't know how people find the time to give a sh+t about these things

[LoveCurryPies]

Nigel Farage and Katie Hopkins are all for keeping the songs.

I'm just saying!

[Boss Hogg]

Why not leave the answer to that, to the people who attend the proms. Tickets for the last night, the most popular night of the whole season, will be harder to get than any other night.
Do those people, and there are people who come from all over the world to attend, think those historical songs are fit for modern consumption. Why can't you just let people enjoy themselves, without trying to foist your own bitter twisted opinion on the occasion.
I was talking about the minority trying to twist everything their own way, rather than accepting that others just don't agree. You're a prime example. You don't like it, so no one else should be allowed to. Let's create a country where Rileybobs is the only opinion that matters.
True democracy

Virtue Signing is very ‘current’. All this looking to be offended business isn’t helping society and could end up being counter productive. Accept the country’s history, learn from history and be proud of the country and it’s generally tolerant values. An alternative is to clear off elsewhere ( Russia maybe ?).

[Rileybobs]

I've nothing to rant about, yours and the lefts opinion is a bad smell, it doesn't hurt me.
If you'd read my posts I'd already stated that only the left wing would have objection to a load of flag waving promenaders singing patriotic songs. If that doesn't explain why I think it is a left v right scenario, I don’t know how I could make myself clearer.

So you think only the left wing are concerned about celebrating Britain’s history of colonialism and slavery? Righto.

As Aggi says, people like you have become so entrenched in picking a side. It’s symptomatic of how divided this country has become when you have people claiming that only the ‘left’ would have concerns over celebrating our colonial past and only ‘leavers’ would be upset about the songs being omitted.

[Rileybobs]

Virtue Signing is very ‘current’. All this looking to be offended business isn’t helping society and could end up being counter productive. Accept the country’s history, learn from history and be proud of the country and it’s generally tolerant values. An alternative is to clear off elsewhere ( Russia maybe ?).

In fairness, the only people virtue signalling (another cheap throwaway comment), on here, are those who are pretending to care about which songs are played at this event. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone on this thread declare their wish for the songs to be scrapped (although I could be wrong).