Seems a lot of chatter about dropping certain songs that are considered linked to our colonial past and celebrating our links to certain themes, shall we say upsetting some.

I don’t see it personally but that’s just me, yet we know we’ve seen changes this last few months

Well, "Land of Hope and Glory" does celebrate expansion of Empire ("Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set ..... God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet"), and that expansion is not viewed by everyone as evidence of either hope or glory .....

MalaysiaMo wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:00 am

Well, "Land of Hope and Glory" does celebrate expansion of Empire ("Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set ..... God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet"), and that expansion is not viewed by everyone as evidence of either hope or glory .....

I bet slaves throughout the world in the 1800's would have loved the British Empire to expand in their direction. Slave owners, less so. It's interesting to speculate what would have happened in the USA if they had lost the War of Independence and still been part of the Empire when slavery was abolished in 1833. The Civil War would have been very different.

Scrapping patriotic songs from the past doesn't change the past.Its like the nonsense of smashing up statues, they where popular at the time erected and symbols of that era.

Pandering to pampered pussies who shouldn't be here.
This is who we are, what we are. If it upsets anyone they would be better off moving to a country who's history suits them, and leave us to wallow in one of the most inclusive countries in the world.
The problem with all these left wing ideologists is they are never satisfied. The more you give them the more they want. At some point in time it will become necessary to just tell them to p@@s off. Personally that point came years ago.

Part of living in a free society is sometimes you have to accept things you don't agree with or like. I do on many subjects. I'm sick to the back teeth of listening to this intoletant group who want everything their way, and anyone who doesn't agree is a xenophobic, white racist, royalist.

There won’t be a lot of chatter


Like all of these things there will be a small minority shouting loud enough for people to think there is a problem. There isn’t.



Ignore them

I note that the people attempting to gain entry by whatever means possible to this intolerant bastion of racism are in the main black people.

Couldn't really give a toss what the flag-wagging pretentious middle class berks are pretending to enjoy in their wanky overblown hyped-up snobby world.

Could be axed from Last Night of the Proms along with Land of Hope and Glory. It’s been initiated by the BLM movement. Often thought Land of Hope and Glory would be a good National Anthem instead of the current dirge. Another forward step ?

Fake news. Chinese whispers.

Already a thread on this.

Most people tune in on the last night of the proms for these songs.

Will be a strange move.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:15 am

Could be axed from Last Night of the Proms along with Land of Hope and Glory. It’s been initiated by the BLM movement. Often thought Land of Hope and Glory would be a good National Anthem instead of the current dirge. Another forward step ?

I think I might just leave the country if this comes to pass

Same here. I'm going to go abroad to a country where there are no foreigners telling us what to do. Maybe Spain. I don't think Spain has any foreigners telling us what to do.

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:17 am

Most people tune in on the last night of the proms for these songs.

Will be a strange move.

Well yes, but leaving aside the BLM issue, (which I don't wish to engage with), this won't be the usual "normal" Last Night with a packed Hall of flag waving enthusiasts. It will essentially be a reflective occasion marking the end of a concert season that didn't really take place.
After 9 /11 the "Last Night" was toned down and these "tub-thumping" anthems were omitted that year, so it's only natural that consideration is being given to the exact formula of this years concert.
I accept of course that some people will also be focusing on the BLM / slavery issue, but there's no doubt that the almost total obliteration of the classical music industry over the past 5 months will have some impact on the selection of music.

We should not pander to the mentally insane

The worst bit of the proms by far, get rid.

Has it been initiated by BLM though. Is anyone asking the organisers to remove the song, or are they just looking to be trendy?

claptrappers_union wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:22 am

Has it been initiated by BLM though. Is anyone asking the organisers to remove the song, or are they just looking to be trendy?

I've no idea why we have two simultaneous threads running on this topic, but the post I made on the other thread about an hour ago goes some way to addressing this (I think):

.......leaving aside the BLM issue, (which I don't wish to engage with), this won't be the usual "normal" Last Night with a packed Hall of flag waving enthusiasts. It will essentially be a reflective occasion marking the end of a concert season that didn't really take place.
After 9 /11 the "Last Night" was toned down and these "tub-thumping" anthems were omitted that year, so it's only natural that consideration is being given to the exact formula of this years concert.
I accept of course that some people will also be focusing on the BLM / slavery issue, but there's no doubt that the almost total obliteration of the classical music industry over the past 5 months will have some impact on the selection of music.

BBC slipping into meltdown.

‘I’ve no idea why ....’
The other one wasn’t seen perhaps ? Happy for it to be merged.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:32 am

‘I’ve no idea why ....’
The other one wasn’t seen perhaps ? Happy for it to be merged.

Oh, I realised that. it wasn't a dig at you. No offence was intended. I'm just surprised that they haven't been merged by the MODs yet.

So so typical of the politically correct woke, biased broadcasting corporation

Threatening to erase part of British heritage, tradition and culture.

And doing it when the Albert Hall will be empty. Doing it when there will be no ticket buying audience who could simply decide not to buy a ticket when they find out the proms are going down the PC toilet. No audience to stand up and walk out in a display of what the silent majority think.

No doubt there'll be lots of patting each other on the back at middle class dinner parties in putney, Islington and Chiswick or any other places where they believe they're morally superior to those who still pay the TV poll tax , otherwise known as the Licence Fee.

Tony Hall director general of the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation ( salary £400,000 per year) is off to the Edinburgh to tell his gushing lefty audience that the BBC is the voice of Britain!!

I don’t know who any of these “ultra-woke lefties” are or what they want, but you’ve got to hand it to them, when it comes to getting under the angry skin of the “male, pale and stale”, they are increasingly expert-level.

You should all try living together in harmony. Try looking at things for the other side’s perspective. You’ll all feel miles better.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:19 am

I don’t know who any of these “ultra-woke lefties” are or what they want, but you’ve got to hand it to them, when it comes to getting under the angry skin of the “male, pale and stale”, they are increasingly expert-level.

You should all try living together in harmony. Try looking at things for the other side’s perspective. You’ll all feel miles better.

That's my point though, nobody apart from a couple of keyboard warriors on twitter is asking for anything to be removed, like when Netflix removed anything to do with 'blackface' on their platform - no matter what the context. Nobody asked them to do that. They did it to make themselves look progressive...

... I suspect the programmes, episodes and scenes that have been removed, have since been quietly re-instated by now, I'll have to check though.

I've already made some attempt to give balance to this debate, but just to add a further consideration: Does anyone really think that performing Land of Hope and Glory in an empty Hall with no flags, colour etc and (most likely) no singing will be particularly uplifting?
I think there's an intelligent debate to be had on musical grounds about this, just as there was following 9 /11 when things were scaled and toned down.

Amazing (not really) that a made-up story in the Sunday press can get the boomers on here so wound up.

Nobody is trying to get rid of the songs. Literally nobody.

Last Night Of The Proms: Rule Britannia and Land Of Hope And Glory face the axe
Bosses are reconsidering the songs' inclusion because of their perceived association with colonialism and slavery.

Both songs are favourites for Prom fans, who often enthusiastically wave flags and sing along - but according to The Sunday Times, BBC producers are currently in discussions about removing them from the setlist.

https://news.sky.com/story/last-night-o ... e-12054958

Yet more divisive virtue signalling from ever more preposterous BBC .

nil_desperandum wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:52 am

I've already made some attempt to give balance to this debate, but just to add a further consideration: Does anyone really think that performing Land of Hope and Glory in an empty Hall with no flags, colour etc and (most likely) no singing will be particularly uplifting?
I think there's an intelligent debate to be had on musical grounds about this, just as there was following 9 /11 when things were scaled and toned down.

Pomp & Circumstance Number 1 is a great march. Well worth listening to, even if (or especially if?) no-one is singing.

Ohhh the cat is out of the bag now.

Some of the casts on this thread are trying far too hard tho. Softly softly, folks.

This'll be an interesting one because if there's two things that middle classes love it's self-flagellation about race AND singing Land of Hope and Glory at the last night of the Proms.

So my guess is there will be a glut of handmade BLM banners and flags at the Proms as they heartily shout out LoHaG whilst affirming their liberal credentials.

The only thing of any relevance in this story is that the BBC are apparently considering the request.

In the current climate with the culture wars and the knowledge of which side Boris and Cummings have taken, it’s a bit like a turkey voting for Christmas. I strongly support keeping the BBC (though reform is essential). But stories like this make me question if the BBC will even outlive the turkey.

dsr wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm

Pomp & Circumstance Number 1 is a great march. Well worth listening to, even if (or especially if?) no-one is singing.

I totally agree with this, but I don't think that this is what certain people are getting angry about. Elgar's march is stirring and splendid, but not patriotic or jingoistic of itself. It's the words that were added later that make it a "patriotic" song.
Now, if there are no flags, no audience and no singing then you have to question whether this will satisfy those who normally have absolutely no interest in classical music or the Proms at all, but wave the flag once a year.
(I speak as someone who normally enjoys the last Night, but as I've pointed out several times, it will be an entirely different format, and you have to question whether in this format patriotic songs with no singing and no flag waving might fall a bit flat).

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:52 am

Part of living in a free society is sometimes you have to accept things you don't agree with or like.

Said without a hint of irony.

JohnMcGreal wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:27 am

I miss turtle..

Rowls wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:48 pm

So my guess is there will be a glut of handmade BLM banners and flags at the Proms as they heartily shout out LoHaG whilst affirming their liberal credentials.

No need to guess. There won't be an audience.

KateR wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:38 am

Seems a lot of chatter about dropping certain songs that are considered linked to our colonial past and celebrating our links to certain themes, shall we say upsetting some.

I don’t see it personally but that’s just me, yet we know we’ve seen changes this last few months

Oh it doesnt take much to upset some people these days. Generation X are very easily upset. I heard that a young Guardian Writer sent a message to older people saying that they should be aware that putting a full stop at the end of a sentnce is offensive to young people. Well him anyway. I'll bet he a mean tackle in a 50/50 that one.

is being perceived as being patriotic a bad thing? Like many things, I can see if you are flying a Union Jack outside your home and marching with flags and demanding a more "white" UK, then yes it would be, however if you do some flag waving and singing once a year I find that hard to believe.

Is it now that anything that is traditional should be stopped, just in case it is offending some people.

Are the Germans for example happy when places like the UK celebrate certain occasions, should wreath laying be stopped and selling poppy's be banned in case we upset someone, which I have no doubt it does?

While the actual audience might be missing, I am sure there will be plenty of people thinking about a home type party and having like minded people round to listen and enjoy what they traditionally do, I can see no reason why they should not be able to do this, particularly this year.

I found this quite a humorous take on this subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sAYv2XQ8ZE

KateR wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:53 pm

While the actual audience might be missing, I am sure there will be plenty of people thinking about a home type party and having like minded people round to listen and enjoy what they traditionally do, I can see no reason why they should not be able to do this, particularly this year.

Look, no one actually knows what this concert is going to look or sound like as yet, but if it's just an orchestra playing in an empty hall then I doubt most people will want to sit through a two hour orchestral concert, just to wave a flag on a couple of occasions. (You may as well just watch last year's concert on Youtube.
(On your specific point: Home parties are not permitted anyway, so that's a good reason why they shouldn't / won't happen. ).
For all its faults, the BBC is probably the best organisation in the world when it comes to judging the public mood and choosing the most appropriate music for any occasion.
My feeling is that these "favourites" will find their way into the programme in one format or another, quite possibly with a "virtual choir and orchestra" and an opportunity for everyone to play-along or sing-a-long at home.

nil_desperandum wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:02 pm

Look, no one actually knows what this concert is going to look or sound like as yet, but if it's just an orchestra playing in an empty hall then I doubt most people will want to sit through a two hour orchestral concert, just to wave a flag on a couple of occasions.
(On your specific point: Home parties are not permitted anyway, so that's a good reason why they shouldn't / won't happen. ).
For all its faults, the BBC is probably the best organisation in the world when it comes to judging the public mood and choosing the most appropriate music for any occasion.

I think the event is not today or tomorrow, so no one really knows what the restrictions might look like at the time, whether it is 6, 8, 12 or more is irrelevant I think, the fact is it will be an excuse for some to have like minded people round and do something different, it wasn't that long ago people were having street parties when many said they shouldn't. Of course it is not going to be masses of home parties, but I "think" some will, it just viewing things a little different and looking from a different perspective.

People wont sit at home watching a 2 hour even in a group, I'm not suggesting the will but they will use it as a reason to get together and probably only watch the end and sing, were many other households may want to watch the 2 hour event as they do every year as a single or a couple and not have a party around it.

We will see what the outcome is, but the fact we are even discussing it is the main point of the thread IMO today. We will discuss the actual outcome another day I suspect.

KateR wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:33 pm

I think the event is not today or tomorrow, so no one really knows what the restrictions might look like at the time, whether it is 6, 8, 12 or more is irrelevant I think, the fact is it will be an excuse for some to have like minded people round and do something different, it wasn't that long ago people were having street parties when many said they shouldn't. Of course it is not going to be masses of home parties, but I "think" some will, it just viewing things a little different and looking from a different perspective.

You're right in the sense that we can't predict exactly what the restrictions will be in the future, but this event is only just over a fortnight away, and the chances of there being any significant loosening of rules in East Lancs in that time are incredibly slim.

KateR wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:53 pm

is being perceived as being patriotic a bad thing? Like many things, I can see if you are flying a Union Jack outside your home and marching with flags and demanding a more "white" UK, then yes it would be, however if you do some flag waving and singing once a year I find that hard to believe.

Is it now that anything that is traditional should be stopped, just in case it is offending some people.

Are the Germans for example happy when places like the UK celebrate certain occasions, should wreath laying be stopped and selling poppy's be banned in case we upset someone, which I have no doubt it does?

While the actual audience might be missing, I am sure there will be plenty of people thinking about a home type party and having like minded people round to listen and enjoy what they traditionally do, I can see no reason why they should not be able to do this, particularly this year.

To me there is just positive and negative nationalism. “We are good at football” “We make great beer” “Our scenery is breathtaking” versus “Americans are fat and lazy” “Italians make bad soldiers” and “Argentinian people are all corrupt”

Please, please, please BBC. Make this happen.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:37 pm

Said without a hint of irony.

No irony at all, its the left wingers who want to change these things. Its been OK for 50 years, but now THEY find it unacceptable. I'm not asking them to approve it, or even like it, just accept that not everyone thinks as they do. Why should the majority of the country have to bend over for a bunch of wet behind the ears radicals.

RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:06 am

So so typical of the politically correct woke, biased broadcasting corporation

Threatening to erase part of British heritage, tradition and culture.

And doing it when the Albert Hall will be empty. Doing it when there will be no ticket buying audience who could simply decide not to buy a ticket when they find out the proms are going down the PC toilet. No audience to stand up and walk out in a display of what the silent majority think.

No doubt there'll be lots of patting each other on the back at middle class dinner parties in putney, Islington and Chiswick or any other places where they believe they're morally superior to those who still pay the TV poll tax , otherwise known as the Licence Fee.

Tony Hall director general of the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation ( salary £400,000 per year) is off to the Edinburgh to tell his gushing lefty audience that the BBC is the voice of Britain!!

Although apparently the Conservative party decided not to use the song at the end of the Conservative party conference in 2001 so go figure.

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:21 pm

No irony at all, its the left wingers who want to change these things. Its been OK for 50 years, but now THEY find it unacceptable. I'm not asking them to approve it, or even like it, just accept that not everyone thinks as they do. Why should the majority of the country have to bend over for a bunch of wet behind the ears radicals.

You said

Part of living in a free society is sometimes you have to accept things you don't agree with or like.

Yet you seem unwilling to accept this thing that you don’t agree with.

AndrewJB wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:46 pm

To me there is just positive and negative nationalism. “We are good at football” “We make great beer” “Our scenery is breathtaking” versus “Americans are fat and lazy” “Italians make bad soldiers” and “Argentinian people are all corrupt”

Andrew we have an accord, you can also relate the same to the opposite ends of the spectrum around right versus left.

AndrewJB wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:46 pm

To me there is just positive and negative nationalism. “We are good at football” “We make great beer” “Our scenery is breathtaking” versus “Americans are fat and lazy” “Italians make bad soldiers” and “Argentinian people are all corrupt”

I can confirm that not all Italian soldiers are bad, and that not all argentinians are corrupt.