" Red Wall " seats ....

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Clarets4me
Posts: 3638
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1705 times
Has Liked: 739 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

" Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Clarets4me » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:29 pm

Just finished reading " The fall of the Red Wall ", a book analysing the last General Election, and in particular, the 41 " Red Wall " seats lost by Labour. It's quite academic in parts, but the conclusion is that the 2019 losses were 20 years in the making. The book plots a gradual decline in the Labour vote share in these seats, of which Burnley is one. This is attributed in part to decline in manufacturing industry and the associated Trades Unions, and also to the general feeling that " Labour no longer represents people like us " ...

The book argues that " Red Wall " voters tend to be socially conservative, ( wanting strong borders, tough prison sentences etc ) , deeply patriotic, and proud of our history and Armed forces. Labour's narrative over the last few years has been off-putting to them. The author makes a good point that in these traditional Labour seats, people either started to vote for the Lib-Dems/UKIP a few years ago, so finally voting Conservative in 2019 was less of a jump than going straight from Labour to the Tories. Even so, it's reckoned that over 1 million voters switched directly from Labour to the Conservatives in 2019. In 1997, the Labour majorities in Bolsover, Leigh and Burnley were 27,149, 24,496 and 17,062 respectively. All returned Tory MP's last December, despite the Brexit party polling over 3,000 in each seat ...

" I didn't leave Labour, Labour left me ", " I've always voted Labour but ... " and " Labour have taken us for granted " were all recurring themes from the hundreds of focus groups ...

Ring any bells with anyone ?
This user liked this post: Rowls

Vino blanco
Posts: 3391
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm
Been Liked: 1136 times
Has Liked: 835 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Vino blanco » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:32 pm

I wouldn't need to read a book to come to that conclusion.
These 4 users liked this post: tim_noone evensteadiereddie Colburn_Claret elwaclaret

CleggHall
Posts: 2392
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:07 am
Been Liked: 636 times
Has Liked: 832 times
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by CleggHall » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:41 pm

Yes it’s been a long time coming but the Labour Party did little to defend these constituencies against globalisation, de-industrialisation and the flight from manufacturing to becoming a service sector economy centred on London and the south east. Blair did nothing for Burnley despite Alastair Campbell’s fortnightly visits but the Corbyn factor played a big part too - unpatriotic, dithering on Brexit, out of touch with the north, lazy and lacking energy. He lost 3 elections - the referendum then 2017 and 2019 but his party saw 2017 as some kind of victory and therein lay the problem. Off to the allotment Jeremy, leadership is something you were not cut out for.
This user liked this post: Bcap1959

huw.Y.WattfromWare
Posts: 1368
Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 7:04 pm
Been Liked: 315 times
Has Liked: 317 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:48 pm

Can’t argue with anything in the OP but it still comes down to if you are working class, and that can now be earning up to £50k, a tory government will NEVER do anything for your benefit. Their soul goal is that the rich get richer.
A strange election with the brexit situation and the anti-CorbynItes but how sad that a lying, self-centred toad like Johnson can have PM on his CV.
These 2 users liked this post: Gordaleman Bcap1959

RMutt
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 pm
Been Liked: 181 times
Has Liked: 42 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RMutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:58 pm

Out of interest Clarets4me, what does the book have to say about media/social media influence?

bobinho
Posts: 5192
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:48 pm
Been Liked: 2140 times
Has Liked: 3329 times
Location: Burnley

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by bobinho » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:59 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:48 pm
Can’t argue with anything in the OP but it still comes down to if you are working class, and that can now be earning up to £50k, a tory government will NEVER do anything for your benefit. Their soul goal is that the rich get richer.
A strange election with the brexit situation and the anti-CorbynItes but how sad that a lying, self-centred toad like Johnson can have PM on his CV.
Well, maybe the Corbynites can shoulder some of the blame. One Of the main ones will be along Any minute, so I’m off to a ‘football’ thread so save me reading the same old same old.

Before I do tho, I voted Labour all my life... until Corbyn. Maybe it would be a good idea for one or two corbynistas to read the report, see the words written down and actually understand them. Alternatively, they can carry on blaming the right wing biased media for spreading lies about JC and ignore why traditional labour voters like me turned our backs on what was offered.

You know where the smart money is tho right?

Edit: if we now can be earning £50k (FIFTY EFFING K) as a working class individual, why did we need the JC version of the Labour Party?
Last edited by bobinho on Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
These 4 users liked this post: BurnleyFC Somethingfishy Colburn_Claret clarethomer

Somethingfishy
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 281 times
Location: Padiham

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Somethingfishy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:59 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:29 pm
Just finished reading " The fall of the Red Wall ", a book analysing the last General Election, and in particular, the 41 " Red Wall " seats lost by Labour. It's quite academic in parts, but the conclusion is that the 2019 losses were 20 years in the making. The book plots a gradual decline in the Labour vote share in these seats, of which Burnley is one. This is attributed in part to decline in manufacturing industry and the associated Trades Unions, and also to the general feeling that " Labour no longer represents people like us " ...

The book argues that " Red Wall " voters tend to be socially conservative, ( wanting strong borders, tough prison sentences etc ) , deeply patriotic, and proud of our history and Armed forces. Labour's narrative over the last few years has been off-putting to them. The author makes a good point that in these traditional Labour seats, people either started to vote for the Lib-Dems/UKIP a few years ago, so finally voting Conservative in 2019 was less of a jump than going straight from Labour to the Tories. Even so, it's reckoned that over 1 million voters switched directly from Labour to the Conservatives in 2019. In 1997, the Labour majorities in Bolsover, Leigh and Burnley were 27,149, 24,496 and 17,062 respectively. All returned Tory MP's last December, despite the Brexit party polling over 3,000 in each seat ...

" I didn't leave Labour, Labour left me ", " I've always voted Labour but ... " and " Labour have taken us for granted " were all recurring themes from the hundreds of focus groups ...

Ring any bells with anyone ?
That pretty much sums up my journey voting intention wise..and the reasons.
These 2 users liked this post: bobinho evensteadiereddie

Quickenthetempo
Posts: 10746
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 2354 times
Has Liked: 1320 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Quickenthetempo » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:01 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:48 pm
Can’t argue with anything in the OP but it still comes down to if you are working class, and that can now be earning up to £50k, a tory government will NEVER do anything for your benefit. Their soul goal is that the rich get richer.
A strange election with the brexit situation and the anti-CorbynItes but how sad that a lying, self-centred toad like Johnson can have PM on his CV.
Eat out to help out was one thing the Tories have done to help this working class chap.

Somethingfishy
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 281 times
Location: Padiham

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Somethingfishy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:02 pm

RMutt wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:58 pm
Out of interest Clarets4me, what does the book have to say about media/social media influence?
Ahh yes the old favourite of Labour supporters. All the medias fault.....every...single...time :roll: Waiting for a certain poster to jump on this. Nothing is ever the fault of the Labour party..it is all a lie and a smear....
Last edited by Somethingfishy on Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
These 3 users liked this post: bobinho Damo clarethomer

bobinho
Posts: 5192
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:48 pm
Been Liked: 2140 times
Has Liked: 3329 times
Location: Burnley

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by bobinho » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:05 pm

Didn’t take long did it. I lost the bet tho... wrong poster.
These 2 users liked this post: evensteadiereddie Damo

claretandy
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 554 times
Has Liked: 199 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by claretandy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:08 pm

Yep, sums it up perfectly for me.

RMutt
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 pm
Been Liked: 181 times
Has Liked: 42 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RMutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 pm

Crikey, I only asked the question. But if you watched the Murdoch documentary series recently, there were loads of people acknowledging the importance of the press in shaping opinion, Farage stood out in particular as did Campbell.

huw.Y.WattfromWare
Posts: 1368
Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 7:04 pm
Been Liked: 315 times
Has Liked: 317 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:10 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:01 pm
Eat out to help out was one thing the Tories have done to help this working class chap.
You are one of the few but the wealthy haven't wasted the opportunity for cheap dining out.

Somethingfishy
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 281 times
Location: Padiham

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Somethingfishy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:14 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:10 pm
You are one of the few but the wealthy haven't wasted the opportunity for cheap dining out.
What exactly is the problem with that? Surely we want them spending their vast wealth to help businesses and the economy out? Or are we banning anyone earning over 50 k from eating out now? :?

RMutt
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 pm
Been Liked: 181 times
Has Liked: 42 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RMutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:17 pm

I do wonder though, if red wall voters are so socially conservative why they ever voted for Labour in the first place, given they always had the socially more conservative Conservatives available? Or have they become more socially conservative over time?

Somethingfishy
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 281 times
Location: Padiham

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Somethingfishy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:21 pm

Is socially conservative another word for being centrist? I was moderate left now i'm bang centre with the slightest smidge to the right (according to that political spectrum test that was on here a few months back) I have certainly drifted right and i think that follows the general trend in the population. As you get older the trend is to drift right.
This user liked this post: tim_noone

RMutt
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 pm
Been Liked: 181 times
Has Liked: 42 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RMutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:27 pm

Maybe it’s the ageing population then. But as the Overton Window slides to the right what was once right is now left and what was left is now far/looney left.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 9674
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 2552 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:35 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:21 pm
Is socially conservative another word for being centrist? I was moderate left now i'm bang centre with the slightest smidge to the right (according to that political spectrum test that was on here a few months back) I have certainly drifted right and i think that follows the general trend in the population. As you get older the trend is to drift right.
By the age of 20, if you're not a socialist, you have no heart.

By the age of 40, if you're not conservative, you have no brain.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 9674
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 2552 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:45 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:29 pm
Just finished reading " The fall of the Red Wall ", a book analysing the last General Election, and in particular, the 41 " Red Wall " seats lost by Labour. It's quite academic in parts, but the conclusion is that the 2019 losses were 20 years in the making. The book plots a gradual decline in the Labour vote share in these seats, of which Burnley is one. This is attributed in part to decline in manufacturing industry and the associated Trades Unions, and also to the general feeling that " Labour no longer represents people like us " ...

The book argues that " Red Wall " voters tend to be socially conservative, ( wanting strong borders, tough prison sentences etc ) , deeply patriotic, and proud of our history and Armed forces. Labour's narrative over the last few years has been off-putting to them. The author makes a good point that in these traditional Labour seats, people either started to vote for the Lib-Dems/UKIP a few years ago, so finally voting Conservative in 2019 was less of a jump than going straight from Labour to the Tories. Even so, it's reckoned that over 1 million voters switched directly from Labour to the Conservatives in 2019. In 1997, the Labour majorities in Bolsover, Leigh and Burnley were 27,149, 24,496 and 17,062 respectively. All returned Tory MP's last December, despite the Brexit party polling over 3,000 in each seat ...

" I didn't leave Labour, Labour left me ", " I've always voted Labour but ... " and " Labour have taken us for granted " were all recurring themes from the hundreds of focus groups ...

Ring any bells with anyone ?
I said this May 2019-

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:20 pm


Mon May 27, 2019 1:20 pm

The burnley result, along with vast areas of the North and Midlands, shows if the metropolitan London bubble dwellers in the labour party ( the Islington dinner party) take the remain and 2nd referendum path, they'll be annihilated in their former heartlands.

Take your core voters for granted and deny democracy by not respecting and enacting the referendum result and they will punish you.

Don't believe me?















Look at Scotland.........


Just a matter of months later. 80 seat majority!

SammyBoy
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:41 pm
Been Liked: 394 times
Has Liked: 359 times
Location: Sector 7G

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by SammyBoy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:47 pm

The UK (specifically England where 80% of the parliamentary seats are based) is an inherently "small c" conservative country and for this reason, Labour have to win elections whereas the Tories merely have try and maintain their position. Labour need to be slick, co-ordinated and on the money when judging the feel of the electorate, often for years at a time in the build up to polling day. If they don't nail all of this then almost by default the Tories will win the election, or at least return the largest number of MP's. A lot of the damage from the last election will likely be undone now Corbyn, Abbott et al have departed, for whatever reason people simply did not like them. However, whether Labour can ever win an outright majority again remains to be seen.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2653 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:49 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:48 pm
Can’t argue with anything in the OP but it still comes down to if you are working class, and that can now be earning up to £50k, a tory government will NEVER do anything for your benefit. Their soul goal is that the rich get richer.
A strange election with the brexit situation and the anti-CorbynItes but how sad that a lying, self-centred toad like Johnson can have PM on his CV.
It's a recurring theme though, just look at Trump in America.
Similar personality to Boris, yet the lack of a decent opposition, or a vision from the opposition that voters can buy into. As the OP said in the book, you might not like Boris, many don't, but at least he was proud to be British. At least the Tories have a facade of being tough on crime. At least they talk tough on controlling immigration, and addressing the illegal immigrant situation. Labour talks as though it despises Britain, feels sorry for the poor criminals and would open the door to all migrants. You add it all together and who cares that it's Boris as PM.

Sproggy
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:41 pm
Been Liked: 297 times
Has Liked: 80 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Sproggy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:50 pm

There was a really good video posted on here a few months ago of an academic that presented similar findings to both main parties before the election. Labour brushed it aside, Cummings et al. took it seriously. Have had a quick look but can't find it.

Paraphrasing a bit but it covered all the point in the OP and said something along the lines of if a rich Tory and a working class Tory were sat in the same room, they'd have some common ground to talk about. If a rich Labour voter and a working class Labour voter were in the same situation, they wouldn't.
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

Spijed
Posts: 12134
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2085 times
Has Liked: 904 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:51 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:45 pm
I said this May 2019-






Just a matter of months later. 80 seat majority!
I see your last comment - "Look at Scotland".

Wonder why they will never ever vote for the Tories?

Rowls
Posts: 8144
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 2958 times
Has Liked: 2997 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Rowls » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:52 pm

20 years in the making - minimum.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2653 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:55 pm

bobinho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:59 pm
Well, maybe the Corbynites can shoulder some of the blame. One Of the main ones will be along Any minute, so I’m off to a ‘football’ thread so save me reading the same old same old.

Before I do tho, I voted Labour all my life... until Corbyn. Maybe it would be a good idea for one or two corbynistas to read the report, see the words written down and actually understand them. Alternatively, they can carry on blaming the right wing biased media for spreading lies about JC and ignore why traditional labour voters like me turned our backs on what was offered.

You know where the smart money is tho right?

Edit: if we now can be earning £50k (FIFTY EFFING K) as a working class individual, why did we need the JC version of the Labour Party?
I've said many times, working class man has more disposable income than ever before. Why would the Turkeys vote for Christmas.
There are more issues to an election than personal gain, you can be well off and care about those elderly, sick or poor, but until Labour understands what working class man is, and what he believes, it's going to be a long cold winter.

Somethingfishy
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 281 times
Location: Padiham

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Somethingfishy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:01 pm

RMutt wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:27 pm
Maybe it’s the ageing population then. But as the Overton Window slides to the right what was once right is now left and what was left is now far/looney left.
The right have taken the middle ground and hoovered up a lot of moderates and centrists. This should have been where Labour were positioned but clearly they have a significant proportion of their membership determined to drag them further left. Crazy. I have read many times of how Blair was a tory in all but name etc. Blair was the moderate left and that is how they see the moderate left. Blair/Brown are their only PMs in 40 years. Tells you something.
Many traditional (not new) tory voters see Johnson as being too left and not hardline enough..which is in contrast to the left who see him as akin to Hitler going off tweets i read last night :lol:

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 9674
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 2552 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:03 pm

Spijed wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:51 pm
I see your last comment - "Look at Scotland".

Wonder why they will never ever vote for the Tories?
The point I was , propheticly, making was , if you take your voters for granted and they perceive that you've turned your back on them. Don't be at all surprised if they then turn their backs on you.

Oh and by the way. In 1997, labour had 56 Scottish Westminster MPs. The tories zero. They used to mock the tories saying there were more Panda bears in Scotland than Tory MPs.

Currently, labour have 1. The tories 6. The question you perhaps should be asking is "Scotland, Labour. Where did it all go wrong?

You'll find a similar answer if you apply it to the former Red Wall.

Labour used to be the working class party.

It's become an Islington dinner party.

Spijed
Posts: 12134
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2085 times
Has Liked: 904 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:04 pm

bobinho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:59 pm
Well, maybe the Corbynites can shoulder some of the blame. One Of the main ones will be along Any minute, so I’m off to a ‘football’ thread so save me reading the same old same old.

Before I do tho, I voted Labour all my life... until Corbyn. Maybe it would be a good idea for one or two corbynistas to read the report, see the words written down and actually understand them. Alternatively, they can carry on blaming the right wing biased media for spreading lies about JC and ignore why traditional labour voters like me turned our backs on what was offered.

You know where the smart money is tho right?

Edit: if we now can be earning £50k (FIFTY EFFING K) as a working class individual, why did we need the JC version of the Labour Party?
But in the days of Michael Foot, many Labour voters would have voted for Corbyn as he was cut from the same cloth.

So what's changed since the days of the miners going on strike?

RMutt
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 pm
Been Liked: 181 times
Has Liked: 42 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RMutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:08 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:01 pm
The right have taken the middle ground and hoovered up a lot of moderates and centrists. This should have been where Labour were positioned but clearly they have a significant proportion of their membership determined to drag them further left. Crazy. I have read many times of how Blair was a tory in all but name etc. Blair was the moderate left and that is how they see the moderate left. Blair/Brown are their only PMs in 40 years. Tells you something.
Many traditional (not new) tory voters see Johnson as being too left and not hardline enough..which is in contrast to the left who see him as akin to Hitler going off tweets i read last night :lol:
. That’s all very well but when you say ‘dragging them to the left’ they are actually dragging them to what would once have been considered moderate left policies. Only the perception of those policies has changed.

Clarets4me
Posts: 3638
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1705 times
Has Liked: 739 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Clarets4me » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:10 pm

RMutt wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:58 pm
Out of interest Clarets4me, what does the book have to say about media/social media influence?
Some mention of the amount of negative stories for Labour compared to Conservative, people increasingly getting news from social media leading to some degree of self/censorship ( only getting news from your " groups " means that you often only get views you agree with ). The other point was that the Conservatives had a clear message, " Get Brexit done ", which appealed in the largely Leave voting " Red Wall " seats, whereas the media message from Labour was all over the place ...
This user liked this post: RMutt

RMutt
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 pm
Been Liked: 181 times
Has Liked: 42 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RMutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:12 pm

Thanks Clarets4me.

huw.Y.WattfromWare
Posts: 1368
Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 7:04 pm
Been Liked: 315 times
Has Liked: 317 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:14 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:14 pm
What exactly is the problem with that? Surely we want them spending their vast wealth to help businesses and the economy out? Or are we banning anyone earning over 50 k from eating out now? :?
Not at all. They can spend their money anywhere they want. My point was that they have taken far more benefit from this than the less well off. Surely there are better ways to stimulate the economy?
This user liked this post: nil_desperandum

Somethingfishy
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 281 times
Location: Padiham

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Somethingfishy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:16 pm

RMutt wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:08 pm
. That’s all very well but when you say ‘dragging them to the left’ they are actually dragging them to what would once have been considered moderate left policies. Only the perception of those policies has changed.
So if they are dragging their policies back left to the moderate left..where were they before? Central? So further right than Blair? Not having that at all. Sorry.

wickdkewlclaret
Posts: 580
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:12 pm
Been Liked: 139 times
Has Liked: 81 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by wickdkewlclaret » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:19 pm

Decisions made by this government have been absolutely atrocious, a catalogue of glaring errors one after the other. We still have Brexit left to get through yet.

People continue to defend them, as there is no credible opposition.

No-one deserves the benefit of doubt when leading a country, the people in charge should be qualified and skilled enough to execute a clear path and outcome. No excuses.

Somethingfishy
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 281 times
Location: Padiham

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Somethingfishy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:20 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:14 pm
Not at all. They can spend their money anywhere they want. My point was that they have taken far more benefit from this than the less well off. Surely there are better ways to stimulate the economy?
It wasn't about who spent the money..it was about the money being spent whoever spends it. It was about supporting restaurants and cafes etc and giving them a boost at a time when they have been really hard hit.

CombatClaret
Posts: 3583
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1544 times
Has Liked: 757 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:34 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:29 pm
It's quite academic in parts, but the conclusion is that the 2019 losses were 20 years in the making.
The Conservatives have been in power for the last 10 of those 20 years. What have they done to turn the region around in the decade they've had in power? Apart from blame other people.

Clarets4me
Posts: 3638
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1705 times
Has Liked: 739 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Clarets4me » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:03 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:34 pm
The Conservatives have been in power for the last 10 of those 20 years. What have they done to turn the region around in the decade they've had in power? Apart from blame other people.
I didn't mean for this post to get " political " in terms of taking sides, more looking at the " reasons " people's voting behaviour changed ...

One point that the author Steve Rayson made, is that in some of these places, people have lived under Labour Borough & County Councils, and had Labour MP's for decades .... to them, Labour are/were the establishment party.

RMutt
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 pm
Been Liked: 181 times
Has Liked: 42 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by RMutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:09 pm

Imagine being so anti establishment that you end up voting Tory. I think I’m going to read this book. It will probably make me more fed up than I am now but hey ho.

Somethingfishy
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:03 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 281 times
Location: Padiham

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Somethingfishy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:32 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:03 pm
I didn't mean for this post to get " political " in terms of taking sides, more looking at the " reasons " people's voting behaviour changed ...

One point that the author Steve Rayson made, is that in some of these places, people have lived under Labour Borough & County Councils, and had Labour MP's for decades .... to them, Labour are/were the establishment party.
I think it is an excellent summing up of the way I have changed my vote and the reasons. Clearly i was far from alone in thinking it and yet all we often get from the left is abuse and name calling. We are ex Labour voters. We are the ones they need back yet they somehow feel it appropriate to act like they do and vindicate our reasons. It happens on here occasionally but Twitter really is something else. There is a lot of bitterness for sure.

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 5312
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 1025 times
Has Liked: 2166 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:45 pm

Spijed wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:04 pm
But in the days of Michael Foot, many Labour voters would have voted for Corbyn as he was cut from the same cloth.

So what's changed since the days of the miners going on strike?
Millions of people have no emotional connection to the miners strike.
Millions of people are also fed up of the rail workers going on strike, or other sectors.

The Union members I know tend to vote Labour, but less people are supportive of Unions now than they were 30yrs ago.

Billy Balfour
Posts: 1797
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 3:00 pm
Been Liked: 738 times
Has Liked: 286 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Billy Balfour » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:01 pm

No new 'middle way' or new right wing party will break the mainly two party FPTP system we have for General Elections.

38,300 votes to elect each Conservative MP

50,817 to elect each Labour MP

334,122 to elect each Liberal Democrat

642,303 votes for zero Brexit Party MPs

864,743 to elect one Green MP
Last edited by Billy Balfour on Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

clarethomer
Posts: 1386
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:24 am
Been Liked: 390 times
Has Liked: 196 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by clarethomer » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:07 pm

Good to see others share the opinion often rubbished by some on here to why labour lost the election.

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 5312
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 1025 times
Has Liked: 2166 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:10 pm

Another thing that's always made me laugh is people are told they should vote Labour because their family always has, or they're from a certain area so why vote anyone but Labour etc.

People aren't encouraged/trusted to think for themselves.

Billy Balfour
Posts: 1797
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 3:00 pm
Been Liked: 738 times
Has Liked: 286 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Billy Balfour » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:13 pm

It's not just a Labour thing. There are solid blue parts of the country where they'll elect any idiot wearing a blue rosette.

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 5312
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 1025 times
Has Liked: 2166 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:21 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:13 pm
It's not just a Labour thing. There are solid blue parts of the country where they'll elect any idiot wearing a blue rosette.
Common phrase for both sides is you could stick a rosette on a donkey and people would vote for it.

clarethomer
Posts: 1386
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:24 am
Been Liked: 390 times
Has Liked: 196 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by clarethomer » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:23 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:21 pm
Common phrase for both sides is you could stick a rosette on a donkey and people would vote for it.
There is a joke in there somewhere.....

Right_winger
Posts: 1889
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:28 pm
Been Liked: 436 times
Has Liked: 387 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Right_winger » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:28 pm

It’s pretty obvious why labour lost its heartlands. It’s turned from a party supporting the working man to one which jumps on every bandwagon going thinking they are morally superior. That’s what the Lib Dem’s are for.

Proper labour politicians would be better forming a new party and leaving the Woke Islington bubble dwellers to it.
These 2 users liked this post: bobinho Colburn_Claret

Spijed
Posts: 12134
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2085 times
Has Liked: 904 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:29 pm

In 1997 it was the exact opposite where Conservative seats with huge majorities were being toppled with ease. It's unlikely to last.

Remember the Portillo moment?

elwaclaret
Posts: 2730
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:57 am
Been Liked: 680 times
Has Liked: 1295 times

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:37 pm

Spijed wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:04 pm
But in the days of Michael Foot, many Labour voters would have voted for Corbyn as he was cut from the same cloth.

So what's changed since the days of the miners going on strike?
Not sure they would. Michael Foot may have been LEFT but no one was ever going to buy that he was anti-British... the guy was a decorated war hero. Johnson was running in post industrial England.... Michael was trying his damndest To prevent us losing our self sufficiency by keeping our heavy industry. Mickael would not have had a bar of the European Union.... neither would his team... Tony Benn in particular, but not in isolation.

Corbyn was neither half the man or offered the nation half the hope that Michael Foot would have. Michael Foot would have beaten Thatcher but for “his appearance”. He was a fine fine politician.
This user liked this post: KateR

Clarets4me
Posts: 3638
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1705 times
Has Liked: 739 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: " Red Wall " seats ....

Post by Clarets4me » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:32 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:37 pm
Not sure they would. Michael Foot may have been LEFT but no one was ever going to buy that he was anti-British... the guy was a decorated war hero. Johnson was running in post industrial England.... Michael was trying his damndest To prevent us losing our self sufficiency by keeping our heavy industry. Mickael would not have had a bar of the European Union.... neither would his team... Tony Benn in particular, but not in isolation.

Corbyn was neither half the man or offered the nation half the hope that Michael Foot would have. Michael Foot would have beaten Thatcher but for “his appearance”. He was a fine fine politician.
Michael Foot was rejected on trying to volunteer at the start of the war due to his " chronic asthma " .

However amongst his generation, Denis Healey was a beachmaster at Anzio, Jim Callaghan was a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy, Roy Jenkins was a " codebreaker " at Bletchley Park and Tony Crosland was a Captain in the Parachute Regiment ...

Post Reply