New 2% tax for all online purchases?
New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Effectively putting VAT up to 22% for online purchases.
Would you find it acceptable to help pay for the massive national financial deficit due to the Covid pandemic?
Would you find it acceptable to help pay for the massive national financial deficit due to the Covid pandemic?
-
- Posts: 2785
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:20 pm
- Been Liked: 711 times
- Has Liked: 88 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Assuming we are talking after the pandemic has ended.
Why penalise those that shop online, 22% VAT everywhere seems fairer.
Why penalise those that shop online, 22% VAT everywhere seems fairer.
-
- Posts: 8069
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
- Been Liked: 3060 times
- Has Liked: 5023 times
- Location: Catterick N.Yorks
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
I agree that 22% across the board might seem fairer, but there are also jobs and businesses going to the wall because of online shopping. You could raise VAT to 25%, and Amazon would still make a fortune.
Just as Super markets shouldn't be allowed to sell alcohol as a loss leader, to undercut pubs, online businesses shouldn't be able to undercut the high street.
Just as Super markets shouldn't be allowed to sell alcohol as a loss leader, to undercut pubs, online businesses shouldn't be able to undercut the high street.
-
- Posts: 13225
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
- Been Liked: 3037 times
- Has Liked: 3759 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Major problem here is that business rates disadvantage companies with property, meaning online businesses can prosper and we will see the death of the high street/retail in general if we don’t do something urgently. It’s not just those jobs that are lost, it’s jobs in insurance, maintenance, etc, etc that relate to property.
So yes, I think there should be an immediate uplift in VAT or a transaction tax levied on online businesses to “level up” the cost bases of online and high street businesses.
Agree also about loss leading on alcohol in supermarkets.
So yes, I think there should be an immediate uplift in VAT or a transaction tax levied on online businesses to “level up” the cost bases of online and high street businesses.
Agree also about loss leading on alcohol in supermarkets.
-
- Posts: 2785
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:20 pm
- Been Liked: 711 times
- Has Liked: 88 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
How does it ‘level up’ cost base when they simply pass it on to the customer.NewClaret wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:59 amMajor problem here is that business rates disadvantage companies with property, meaning online businesses can prosper and we will see the death of the high street/retail in general if we don’t do something urgently. It’s not just those jobs that are lost, it’s jobs in insurance, maintenance, etc, etc that relate to property.
So yes, I think there should be an immediate uplift in VAT or a transaction tax levied on online businesses to “level up” the cost bases of online and high street businesses.
Agree also about loss leading on alcohol in supermarkets.
-
- Posts: 13225
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
- Been Liked: 3037 times
- Has Liked: 3759 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Not if it’s VAT, I agree. I meant it should be a transaction tax paid by the online retailer not the customer directly (albeit would be passed on indirectly, but then so are the property costs absorbed by traditional retailers today, indirectly).Granny WeatherWax wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:18 pmHow does it ‘level up’ cost base when they simply pass it on to the customer.
Or you could hugely tax warehouse accommodation, but that will impact the bricks and mortar retailers with storage depots too, so double whammy.
-
- Posts: 2785
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:20 pm
- Been Liked: 711 times
- Has Liked: 88 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
I feel the amount of independent high street businesses your strategy is trying to protect are so few and far between nowadays it wouldn’t make a difference.
-
- Posts: 17917
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
- Been Liked: 3842 times
- Has Liked: 2065 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Put it up to 50% if it stops my neighbor's ordering tons of stuff and not being in when the delivery driver comes.
And then expects me to take them in.
And then expects me to take them in.
-
- Posts: 847
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:17 am
- Been Liked: 111 times
- Has Liked: 71 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
No.
It's another tax on poor people who often buy online because its cheaper than going to the shops.
-
- Posts: 15108
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
- Been Liked: 3138 times
- Has Liked: 6682 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
I thought we were being advised to stay away from shops if possible. Why encourage people back to high street shops?
-
- Posts: 13225
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
- Been Liked: 3037 times
- Has Liked: 3759 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Where have we been encouraged to stay away from shops?boatshed bill wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:52 pmI thought we were being advised to stay away from shops if possible. Why encourage people back to high street shops?
-
- Posts: 8069
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
- Been Liked: 3060 times
- Has Liked: 5023 times
- Location: Catterick N.Yorks
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
There's a much bigger picture.PeterWilton wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:13 pmNo.
It's another tax on poor people who often buy online because its cheaper than going to the shops.
Society requires social interaction, for a persons sanity they need to get out.
There is a danger that people just start living the lives of hermits. Shops closed, pubs closed, Church attendances falling. When people can have everything they need delivered to their doorstep food, clothes, everything. When the outside world in many areas of the country is seen as dangerous.
What happens to all of us, if large sections of society self impose their own prison sentence. We'd all be poorer, but for those individuals the consequences are frightening.
These 2 users liked this post: ecc Down_Rover
-
- Posts: 15108
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
- Been Liked: 3138 times
- Has Liked: 6682 times
-
- Posts: 13225
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
- Been Liked: 3037 times
- Has Liked: 3759 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Entirely agree. Soon we’ll all be working at home, shopping from home, watching football at home. We’ll never leave our homes if we don’t have nice places to go, which we won’t unless we level up traditional retailers prices with those available online due to lower costs (and taxes).Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:44 pmThere's a much bigger picture.
Society requires social interaction, for a persons sanity they need to get out.
There is a danger that people just start living the lives of hermits. Shops closed, pubs closed, Church attendances falling. When people can have everything they need delivered to their doorstep food, clothes, everything. When the outside world in many areas of the country is seen as dangerous.
What happens to all of us, if large sections of society self impose their own prison sentence. We'd all be poorer, but for those individuals the consequences are frightening.
-
- Posts: 13225
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
- Been Liked: 3037 times
- Has Liked: 3759 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Reopen now though. Don’t think there’s any general strategy to discourage people from visiting shops in the long term.
-
- Posts: 847
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:17 am
- Been Liked: 111 times
- Has Liked: 71 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
That's a curious argument. Make poor people poorer to make them happier.Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:44 pmThere's a much bigger picture.
Society requires social interaction, for a persons sanity they need to get out.
There is a danger that people just start living the lives of hermits. Shops closed, pubs closed, Church attendances falling. When people can have everything they need delivered to their doorstep food, clothes, everything. When the outside world in many areas of the country is seen as dangerous.
What happens to all of us, if large sections of society self impose their own prison sentence. We'd all be poorer, but for those individuals the consequences are frightening.
-
- Posts: 15108
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
- Been Liked: 3138 times
- Has Liked: 6682 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
OK. But I haven't altered my behaviour since the start of the original lockdown as I saw it as our only hope of containing the virus.
Taxing on-line shoppers is encouraging more contact with the public, therefore more risk.
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
This is the Tory way of doing things. Make us all pay more whilst the likes of Amazon last year paid £293m in taxes whist sales (not profits) went up to £13.73 billion.
-
- Posts: 15108
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
- Been Liked: 3138 times
- Has Liked: 6682 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Right now, with the pandemic, you could see it as a tax on common sense.
-
- Posts: 25445
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:46 am
- Been Liked: 6930 times
- Has Liked: 11660 times
- Location: Leeds
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
2% on common sense wouldn't be much at all.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:23 pmRight now, with the pandemic, you could see it as a tax on common sense.
This user liked this post: ecc
-
- Posts: 30275
- Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
- Been Liked: 10917 times
- Has Liked: 5594 times
- Location: clue is in the title
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Amazon paid 293 million in tax whilst profits went up over 13 billion
There's your issue
There's your issue
-
- Posts: 15108
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
- Been Liked: 3138 times
- Has Liked: 6682 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Would you have to pay, Frank?
It's common sense to shop on-line at present, if possible.
I know I'm probably a bit OTT about it, but I'm avoiding the public "like the plague" (as they say)
-
- Posts: 14566
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
- Been Liked: 3435 times
- Has Liked: 6339 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
I assume you'd rather they didn't bother trying to do something then?
Personally I think the high Street is an outdated concept and it started going downhill when they created Superstores and retail parks.
Online shopping has just speeded up the decline and even some of the Superstores have started disappearing like Mother care and Toys R Us.
Give it another generation or 2 and I'd be surprised to still see a high street as we know it today.
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Cheers, Frank, you've given me my first laugh today although sadly what you say is not a desperate state of affairs.
"2% on common sense wouldn't be much at all."
"2% on common sense wouldn't be much at all."
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
No I agree entirely, the High Street as we know it is dead. But I don't see why we should be charged extra for shopping on line when multi billion pound companies like Amazon get away with paying little or no tax. Or are you happy with that state of affairs.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:32 pmI assume you'd rather they didn't bother trying to do something then?
Personally I think the high Street is an outdated concept and it started going downhill when they created Superstores and retail parks.
Online shopping has just speeded up the decline and even some of the Superstores have started disappearing like Mother care and Toys R Us.
Give it another generation or 2 and I'd be surprised to still see a high street as we know it today.
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Why tax the pundits and not the online companies?
Especially as most of them get away with paying insufficient tax anyway.
Stick a levy on every item they sell - say 2p.
Payable direct to the govt. coffers.
Especially as most of them get away with paying insufficient tax anyway.
Stick a levy on every item they sell - say 2p.
Payable direct to the govt. coffers.
-
- Posts: 847
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:17 am
- Been Liked: 111 times
- Has Liked: 71 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:32 pmI assume you'd rather they didn't bother trying to do something then?
A new tax on sales wouldn't be them doing something. It would be the opposite.
This would be the tories saying "OK, we're not gonna come after all the tax you're avoiding, so instead we'll add extra sales tax which your customers will pay, not you. Now, please continue to contribute to our party and we'll dupe the dumb public into thinking that this is us doing something about tax avoidance and evasion.
...
Yeah, it'll work. We do this **** all the time."
This user liked this post: BabylonClaret
-
- Posts: 8069
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
- Been Liked: 3060 times
- Has Liked: 5023 times
- Location: Catterick N.Yorks
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
It only depends on how you define poor people.PeterWilton wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:56 pmThat's a curious argument. Make poor people poorer to make them happier.
My generation had none of todays mod cons, laptops, mobile phones, FB, Game consoles. By todays yardstick we'd be labelled poor, in many ways we were. But I'd argue that we had a lot happier childhood than Many of todays privileged kids. Being out in the fresh air, having to use your imagination to invent games. There are many happy people in this country that don't have 2 pennies to rub together, just as there are many rich people who commit suicide. There are many benefits to having wealth, but it doesn't necessarily bring happiness. There are more ways to measure poverty than just the pennies in your pocket, try measuring the quality of life, far more important than money.
This user liked this post: Pimlico_Claret
-
- Posts: 9845
- Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
- Been Liked: 2344 times
- Has Liked: 3164 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
It's nonsense to use the tax system to put extra costs on one type of business (online) just because another type of business (bricks and mortar) has costs that the first type doesn't. if a business can provide what the customer wants at a lower cost than other businesses can, then that business should be encouraged and "rewarded" by its success.
Should all the posters on internet message boards be charged, for example, 76p every time they post, because that's the price of a 1st class stamp - and the internet is an online way of "posting a letter" and sending a message?
Some say they are concerned about jobs: should we insist that every business employs the same number of staff. Those that can work a little faster, or have found a way to be more productive have also to employ a few staff to "stand around" with nothing to do, because some of their competitors are still working in the "old" ways?
Should all the posters on internet message boards be charged, for example, 76p every time they post, because that's the price of a 1st class stamp - and the internet is an online way of "posting a letter" and sending a message?
Some say they are concerned about jobs: should we insist that every business employs the same number of staff. Those that can work a little faster, or have found a way to be more productive have also to employ a few staff to "stand around" with nothing to do, because some of their competitors are still working in the "old" ways?
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Exactly. So many people, like yourself, haven't grasped that Amazon's profits are nowhere near 13 billion. The message isn't clear.Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:25 pmAmazon paid 293 million in tax whilst profits went up over 13 billion
There's your issue
Amazon's sales are 13 billion. The profits on which they pay tax are about 1.5 billion. The difference being the cost of the goods they sell, plus delivery, storage, wages, admin, and capital investment. We don't know how much if any jiggery pokery goes into those figures.
As a comparison, Sainbury's had sales of 24 billion and paid tax of 74 million in their last published accounts.
Last edited by dsr on Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This user liked this post: Paul Waine
-
- Posts: 13225
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
- Been Liked: 3037 times
- Has Liked: 3759 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Agree that Amazon (and other international companies) pay far too little tax. I *think* this is because they base themselves in the EU and then trade freely in the UK. Genuinely interested to know whether we’ll have more control over this when we are out?
My point is that Amazon, as just one example, take £13bn out of the economy, and put £293m back. If, for whatever reason, we can’t get them to pay more in by taxing their profits, the only way is to tax their sales.
That should be tax on them, not the consumer, although I accept ultimately it would be passed on in that way but I’d accept that if it allowed high street retailers to be more competitive.
-
- Posts: 14566
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
- Been Liked: 3435 times
- Has Liked: 6339 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
I'd like companies to be charged tax on any transaction in the country of purchase.
I've never agreed with them funneling their monies around the likes of Ireland, Luxembourg or some island tax haven.
It's probably more complicated to rewrite the whole of the UK tax laws and will take longer to ensure there aren't any loopholes than it does to introduce this small increase as a short term gap.
I've never understood how the online companies have been allowed to get away with it for so long, but I'd support any party who puts a stop to it.
-
- Posts: 14566
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
- Been Liked: 3435 times
- Has Liked: 6339 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... ly%20legal.dsr wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:06 pmExactly. So many people, like yourself, haven't grasped that Amazon's profits are nowhere near 13 billion. The message isn't clear.
Amazon's sales are 13 billion. The profits on which they pay tax are about 1.5 billion. The difference being the cost of the goods they sell, plus delivery, storage, wages, admin, and capital investment. We don't know how much if any jiggery pokery goes into those figures.
As a comparison, Sainbury's had sales of 24 billion and paid tax of 74 million in their last published accounts.
This explains a fair amount.
-
- Posts: 14566
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
- Been Liked: 3435 times
- Has Liked: 6339 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Pick a fight with someone else, I've neither the time nor desire to bother with you.PeterWilton wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:17 pmA new tax on sales wouldn't be them doing something. It would be the opposite.
This would be the tories saying "OK, we're not gonna come after all the tax you're avoiding, so instead we'll add extra sales tax which your customers will pay, not you. Now, please continue to contribute to our party and we'll dupe the dumb public into thinking that this is us doing something about tax avoidance and evasion.
...
Yeah, it'll work. We do this **** all the time."
-
- Posts: 847
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:17 am
- Been Liked: 111 times
- Has Liked: 71 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:11 pmPick a fight with someone else, I've neither the time nor desire to bother with you.
What an odd reply.
-
- Posts: 9845
- Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
- Been Liked: 2344 times
- Has Liked: 3164 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Hi New, good that you are "genuinely interested." International tax rules were agreed a long time ago. They aren't an "EU thing" and it isn't something that the UK would "have more control over.. when we are out."NewClaret wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:07 pmAgree that Amazon (and other international companies) pay far too little tax. I *think* this is because they base themselves in the EU and then trade freely in the UK. Genuinely interested to know whether we’ll have more control over this when we are out?
My point is that Amazon, as just one example, take £13bn out of the economy, and put £293m back. If, for whatever reason, we can’t get them to pay more in by taxing their profits, the only way is to tax their sales.
That should be tax on them, not the consumer, although I accept ultimately it would be passed on in that way but I’d accept that if it allowed high street retailers to be more competitive.
Let's start with a few facts: if Amazon sell goods worth £13bn then that means they've delivered goods that the (retail) market values at £13bn and been paid £13bn for those goods. Amazon haven't "taken £13bn out of the economy." Amazon have paid corporation tax of £293m. In addition, Amazon will have paid employer's national insurance on wages of the employees they have - and, of course, those employees will have paid income tax (and employees NIC) on their wages. So, in terms of "put back" we could add back the employment taxes that result from Amazon being in the UK. Then, there are all the other parts of the "supply chain" - the suppliers of the goods that Amazon sells and the distribution companies that support the delivery to Amazon customers, all with their employees in turn. Then VAT will have been charged and paid on much of the £13bn sales, so that's another payment into the UK tax system. (I've assumed that the £13bn turnover is the figure before VAT is added).
I agree that the international tax system was set up and agreed between the nations of the world before the invention of the internet. I agree that buying online allows us all to access suppliers who aren't based in the UK and that these companies can make profits that are outside the reach of the UK - and, may, in many cases, chose to make those profits where they are subject to the lowest rate of tax. The world needs a new approach to international profits. I'd start by getting rid of corporation tax - which also has the benefit of equalising the tax treatment of equity and debt, there would no longer be a tax benefit of borrowing money as distinct from equity.
EDIT: I got some things wrong above. I've since read the report in The Times (9-Sep) Amazon paid £293m in direct taxes, so not just corporation tax. "Amazon said that employer taxes, such as national insurance, were the biggest cost, followed by business rates, corporation tax and others, including stamp duty. Last year it directly employed 30,000 people in Britain." "The business said that its indirect taxes, including VAT on the sale of its goods and PAYE paid by its employees, were an additional £854 million."
Last edited by Paul Waine on Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 30275
- Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
- Been Liked: 10917 times
- Has Liked: 5594 times
- Location: clue is in the title
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Amazon UK Services Ltd’s operating profit rose from £26.5m in 2016 to nearly £80m for 2017, while its corporation tax bill fell by 38 per cent from £7.4m in 2016 to £4.6m in 2017.dsr wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:06 pmExactly. So many people, like yourself, haven't grasped that Amazon's profits are nowhere near 13 billion. The message isn't clear.
Amazon's sales are 13 billion. The profits on which they pay tax are about 1.5 billion. The difference being the cost of the goods they sell, plus delivery, storage, wages, admin, and capital investment. We don't know how much if any jiggery pokery goes into those figures.
As a comparison, Sainbury's had sales of 24 billion and paid tax of 74 million in their last published accounts.
-
- Posts: 13225
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
- Been Liked: 3037 times
- Has Liked: 3759 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Thanks Paul.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:41 pmHi New, good that you are "genuinely interested." International tax rules were agreed a long time ago. They aren't an "EU thing" and it isn't something that the UK would "have more control over.. when we are out."
Let's start with a few facts: if Amazon sell goods worth £13bn then that means they've delivered goods that the (retail) market values at £13bn and been paid £13bn for those goods. Amazon haven't "taken £13bn out of the economy." Amazon have paid corporation tax of £293m. In addition, Amazon will have paid employer's national insurance on wages of the employees they have - and, of course, those employees will have paid income tax (and employees NIC) on their wages. So, in terms of "put back" we could add back the employment taxes that result from Amazon being in the UK. Then, there are all the other parts of the "supply chain" - the suppliers of the goods that Amazon sells and the distribution companies that support the delivery to Amazon customers, all with their employees in turn. Then VAT will have been charged and paid on much of the £13bn sales, so that's another payment into the UK tax system. (I've assumed that the £13bn turnover is the figure before VAT is added).
I agree that the international tax system was set up and agreed between the nations of the world before the invention of the internet. I agree that buying online allows us all to access suppliers who aren't based in the UK and that these companies can make profits that are outside the reach of the UK - and, may, in many cases, chose to make those profits where they are subject to the lowest rate of tax. The world needs a new approach to international profits. I'd start by getting rid of corporation tax - which also has the benefit of equalising the tax treatment of equity and debt, there would no longer be a tax benefit of borrowing money as distinct from equity.
Interesting. So basically we’re bound by international rules thus powerless to get Amazon, for example, to pay more tax? My “genuinely interested” comment was meaning not to snark at the EU specifically and turn it in to a Brexit thread.
Accept that there are so many other ways that they contribute to the economy through employment taxes, supply chain, etc. I think that is often overlooked, but my comment that they “take out of the economy” was basically “away from local retailers”. I bought some seeds online recently; I would ordinarily have given to my local garden centre, supporting a local business/jobs. Instread it supported an American conglomerate and a warehouse worker from Warrington or something. Pure laziness on my behalf, but where will it end up?
Also agree that corporation tax is entirely ineffective because there are so many ways you can cook the books to make no /little profit. I’d personally focus it more on income, and in the case of online retailers, a % of sales seems quite easy to implement.
My main point/concern is the worrying demise of the high street. I’m fortunate enough to live near a thriving, bustling, attractive high street full of independents, bars, cafes, alongside the hair dressers and odd clothes shop. But some towns are becoming desolate. Abandoned by banks, high street chains, bars and now workers(!), etc - some are horrible as they are, but soon they’ll be ghost towns.
I accept the high street is “dead” in the sense you’re not going to be trotting along to the butchers and the green grocers to do your weekly shop anymore. And that JJB and HMV will never be making a comeback. Just that I think there needs to be a tax on online shopping to fund investment in their regeneration/repurposing, and lower business rates ongoing.
Landlords have their part to play as well, some of the rents they demand are going to have to substantially reduce.
-
- Posts: 13225
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
- Been Liked: 3037 times
- Has Liked: 3759 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Precisely why we need to tax their sales not profits.Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:24 pmAmazon UK Services Ltd’s operating profit rose from £26.5m in 2016 to nearly £80m for 2017, while its corporation tax bill fell by 38 per cent from £7.4m in 2016 to £4.6m in 2017.
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
'Town centres' might (in fact they probably will) eventually disappear and be replaced by local/community shops/cafes/pubs.
One thing for sure is that the professional town planners will be the last to realise what's happening and many millions/billions of pounds will be poured into town centres instead of developing leisure facilities in local communities.
One thing for sure is that the professional town planners will be the last to realise what's happening and many millions/billions of pounds will be poured into town centres instead of developing leisure facilities in local communities.
-
- Posts: 9845
- Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
- Been Liked: 2344 times
- Has Liked: 3164 times
Re: New 2% tax for all online purchases?
Hi New, agree on avoiding creating another brexit thread.NewClaret wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:30 pmThanks Paul.
Interesting. So basically we’re bound by international rules thus powerless to get Amazon, for example, to pay more tax? My “genuinely interested” comment was meaning not to snark at the EU specifically and turn it in to a Brexit thread.
Accept that there are so many other ways that they contribute to the economy through employment taxes, supply chain, etc. I think that is often overlooked, but my comment that they “take out of the economy” was basically “away from local retailers”. I bought some seeds online recently; I would ordinarily have given to my local garden centre, supporting a local business/jobs. Instread it supported an American conglomerate and a warehouse worker from Warrington or something. Pure laziness on my behalf, but where will it end up?
Also agree that corporation tax is entirely ineffective because there are so many ways you can cook the books to make no /little profit. I’d personally focus it more on income, and in the case of online retailers, a % of sales seems quite easy to implement.
My main point/concern is the worrying demise of the high street. I’m fortunate enough to live near a thriving, bustling, attractive high street full of independents, bars, cafes, alongside the hair dressers and odd clothes shop. But some towns are becoming desolate. Abandoned by banks, high street chains, bars and now workers(!), etc - some are horrible as they are, but soon they’ll be ghost towns.
I accept the high street is “dead” in the sense you’re not going to be trotting along to the butchers and the green grocers to do your weekly shop anymore. And that JJB and HMV will never be making a comeback. Just that I think there needs to be a tax on online shopping to fund investment in their regeneration/repurposing, and lower business rates ongoing.
Landlords have their part to play as well, some of the rents they demand are going to have to substantially reduce.
I think we are targeting the wrong issues if we try to tax online retailers to support high streets and independent shops. I like my "high street" and, like you, try to support local businesses. Rather than tax the online businesses that don't have high street presence, I'd look to remove the taxes from the high street. So, get rid of business rates and link property rents to the business income. (I paused before typing "income" and wondered whether rents should relate to profits, but I think income/turnover is better - the landlord should receive a share of the turnover the business receives, as this is a better reflection of the "value" of the business being on the high street. We want businesses that make "lots of sales" because that shows that their customers value them being on the high street...).
I'd have a "land use" tax that would replace (1) business rates; (2) council tax and (3) stamp duty. Land use tax would be the same, whether the property was a high street shop, a residential home, a pub or any other usage. (Stamp duty penalises people who move house and is avoided by all those who stay in the same house, choosing to extend rather than move. However, sorting out the property market is separate from saving the high street and a fair contribution from online businesses).
I've no problem with online retailers. However, I feel there is a tax that should be paid by all online "data exploiters" and Amazon falls in this camp, as do Facebook, google etc, etc. They are fantastically profitable because they "grab" all their users data and use this data to support their online advertising businesses. Of course, they can choose where these "fantastic profits" are taxed (or not taxed). I'd charge a tax based on "verified users" - the verification including the verified country of residence of the user - so, lets say £100/UK users. (I've not done any sums). That may be a good starting point.