Should Furlough end ?

[Boss Hogg]

Can’t continue forever. It’s been a abused by some companies where employees have continued to work and others where staff were already being laid off prior to the virus. A lot of people being paid by taxpayers to sit outside pubs midweek in the sunshine at the moment when they could be doing something more constructive.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Dunno if it should end, but maybe tighten the rules up.

[Granny WeatherWax]

Needs to change to targeted support, some sectors still cant open, what are they meant to do if it ends.

[Burnley1989]

A lot of people don't understand the impact of what is coming, I still believe some sectors need help.

You have to feel for these people who wont have a job to go back to, all due to restrictions that are out of their control. I'd be careful about who we tar with the 'lazy sods, happy to be sat at home card' I've family members that are really struggling, financially and mentally as they're eating into their savings every month and don't know if in January they will have that financial buffer when they lose their jobs. (Myself included) Its very worrying at the moment, I know personally I'm working harder than ever for a reduced salary and no commission/bonuses, and struggling to engage any customers. My income is down 50% on last year, so I'll soon have to make some big changes but that my problem, I dont expect handouts from the government as I'm managing to get by.

[Dyched]

Yes. I was back for 2 months full time whilst still on “furlough”. I’m in 2 minds what to do at the minute tbh.

[Granny WeatherWax]

Yes. I was back for 2 months full time whilst still on “furlough”. I’m in 2 minds what to do at the minute tbh.

As in - your employer was falsifying furlough claims?

[Quickenthetempo]

If people are only getting 80% of their income on the scheme then you would think it would only help for so long?

How many people have that 20% of their wage left over at the end of the month in normal circumstances?

It will be a huge help that they don't get too much in debt but slowly they will the longer it goes on.

[Granny WeatherWax]

There will be mass redundancies if it simply ends at the end of October

[Dyched]

As in - your employer was falsifying furlough claims?

Yes. I was told I was still on furlough after I’d returned for 2 months. They’ve took me off now. They told me as they thought it was quite funny. In some bizarre way. I’m against it obviously. There’s a few more things gone on recently too, but it could be pretty dumb to tell them to stick their job at this time. But that’s essentially where I am mentally with it.

[Burnley1989]

If people are only getting 80% of their income on the scheme then you would think it would only help for so long?

How many people have that 20% of their wage left over at the end of the month in normal circumstances?

It will be a huge help that they don't get too much in debt but slowly they will the longer it goes on.

80% up to £30k so it will be a hell of a lot more than 20% for some

[Colburn_Claret]

Yes

For those saying that some sectors still can't open, I narrow it down to foreign tourist companies and the Air services that support them.

I think the problem of lockdown has been misread from the offset, as the government has twisted and turned to appease the media.
They should have stuck with the herd immunity they first invoked. Stopping perfectly healthy people from doing their job, to protect a very small percentage of the population, has knocked the country for 6.
We should have concentrated all our efforts into shielding those small minority that were at risk, and it should have been easy enough to put the steps in place to protect them, in fact easier than the mass changes that have occurred.

[Granny WeatherWax]

Yes. I was told I was still on furlough after I’d returned for 2 months. They’ve took me off now. They told me as they thought it was quite funny. In some bizarre way. I’m against it obviously. There’s a few more things gone on recently too, but it could be pretty dumb to tell them to stick their job at this time. But that’s essentially where I am mentally with it.

You can report them to HMRC on the quiet.....

[Burnley1989]

Yes. I was told I was still on furlough after I’d returned for 2 months. They’ve took me off now. They told me as they thought it was quite funny. In some bizarre way. I’m against it obviously. There’s a few more things gone on recently too, but it could be pretty dumb to tell them to stick their job at this time. But that’s essentially where I am mentally with it.

Its a difficult situation to be in, like you say, when there aren't many jobs about you need to be very careful. Easy for me to say 'do the right thing' Im sure I'd be exactly the same in your position and it will have been going on at more companies with the employees unaware. Hopefully they will be caught eventually and made to pay it back

[FactualFrank]

Yes. I was told I was still on furlough after I’d returned for 2 months. They’ve took me off now. They told me as they thought it was quite funny. In some bizarre way. I’m against it obviously. There’s a few more things gone on recently too, but it could be pretty dumb to tell them to stick their job at this time. But that’s essentially where I am mentally with it.

Do you think it will ultimately end in redundancy? That seems to be where a lot of furloughed people are going to end up.

[Granny WeatherWax]

Yes

For those saying that some sectors still can't open, I narrow it down to foreign tourist companies and the Air services that support them.

I think the problem of lockdown has been misread from the offset, as the government has twisted and turned to appease the media.
They should have stuck with the herd immunity they first invoked. Stopping perfectly healthy people from doing their job, to protect a very small percentage of the population, has knocked the country for 6.
We should have concentrated all our efforts into shielding those small minority that were at risk, and it should have been easy enough to put the steps in place to protect them, in fact easier than the mass changes that have occurred.

You've narrowed it down way too much. For example, the whole night time economy is at risk:

Nightclubs
Theaters
Live music venues
Event spaces
etc etc etc

This is the 5th biggest industry in the UK.

[Dyched]

You can report them to HMRC on the quiet.....

It’s a pretty small business tbh. They’ll know who grassed them up.

[Dyched]

Do you think it will ultimately end in redundancy? That seems to be where a lot of furloughed people are going to end up.

No it won’t. I’m 100% confident in that. I’m pretty secure in it, I’m just worried if I do the right thing (to me) and get out I’ll put myself into a vulnerable situation regards work. Something has to give soon though as being in lockdown and then generally being ****** off and unhappy is having quite an effect on me lately.

[Top Claret]

My daughter who works in hospitality and has been back at work for months. She has worked at the same restaurant for nearly 2 years, paid monthly and always got a pay slip, as the rest of the staff.

Not anymore though, she suspects as do her work mates that her employer is still claiming Furlough.

The government want to go to town on these unscrupulous business owners and fine them heavily. If they have spent the cash take out a private prosecution,
this is theft seize their personal assets

[Claret Till I Die]

Thought Irish Claret was back for a while

[KateR]

does need to end but not just stop from one day to the next, needs a new intermediary staged system to help, unemployment will rise a lot even with that but if it stops then will be a massive increase that will take a long time to get out of. Incentives are going to be around until end 2021 in my opinion but not in the present furlough scheme I think.

[kaptin1]

Risk of keep extending it is that you create moral hazard with people thinking that whatever happens the government will always come to the rescue. The situation we find ourselves in is very unfortunate but it can’t be pain free. The cost of propping up the economy now will be paid for by those in the future. The longer and more it is propped up the greater the future cost.

[Granny WeatherWax]

Risk of keep extending it is that you create moral hazard with people thinking that whatever happens the government will always come to the rescue. The situation we find ourselves in is very unfortunate but it can’t be pain free. The cost of propping up the economy now will be paid for by those in the future. The longer and more it is propped up the greater the future cost.

I don't mind paying for it in the future if it means we can help out those people who would be made redundant if furlough was to simply stop.

[FactualFrank]

does need to end but not just stop from one day to the next, needs a new intermediary staged system to help, unemployment will rise a lot even with that but if it stops then will be a massive increase that will take a long time to get out of. Incentives are going to be around until end 2021 in my opinion but not in the present furlough scheme I think.

The government are going to make us pay for it at the end of the day. Allowances on the self employed ain't going to go up for a few years, and they're on about raising tax for online orders. We're going to be ultimately paying it back.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I am of the opinion it shouldn’t end. A lot of sectors aren’t even up to 50% capacity due to government restrictions, all that is going to happen is the number of unemployed is going to sky rocket

[CaptJohn]

I haven't worked since March and have received the sum of zero off both the government and employer. I'm one of those that has fallen through the cracks big time. IMHO furlough has to end sometime soon but I agree with an earlier poster who suggested that a targeted approach to supporting certain sectors will be required.

[KateR]

The government are going to make us pay for it at the end of the day. Allowances on the self employed ain't going to go up for a few years, and they're on about raising tax for online orders. We're going to be ultimately paying it back.

yes of course, but decide if you want people to go on unemployment benefits and get paid while businesses scale back at the same time or if you want the government to help people who would otherwise be unemployed past Oct and stay in work allowing businesses to scale back up and help the overall economy. There is a good reason that Germany and France for example have there own schemes to help through to the end of 2021, I for one believe it's the best of a bad situation, but at the end of the day it's only my opinion and I wont be making the call.

Ending furlough cold turkey is a sure way to disaster, way beyond extremely high unemployment and I don't believe this Gov. will do it.

[FactualFrank]

yes of course, but decide if you want people to go on unemployment benefits and get paid while businesses scale back at the same time or if you want the government to help people who would otherwise be unemployed past Oct and stay in work allowing businesses to scale back up and help the overall economy. There is a good reason that Germany and France for example have there own schemes to help through to the end of 2021, I for one believe it's the best of a bad situation, but at the end of the day it's only my opinion and I wont be making the call.

Ending furlough cold turkey is a sure way to disaster, way beyond extremely high unemployment and I don't believe this Gov. will do it.

I think we're delaying the inevitable with a lot of people, unfortunately. What you're saying regarding benefits is a valid point, but I sense the government know a lot of people will end up there anyway.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I’ve needed help from about 50 companies in the last six months for a major project. Due to furloughing, finding ones willing and able to help has been a nightmare. The reasons for furlough were because demand was low as we were locked down - now (I accept not everywhere) demand is booming and these firms are still understaffed or back only part time. People are being told 10-15 weeks waiting lists to get things made for them. The allure of free money is very high.

On the flip side, I have spoken to loads of self employed tradesmen who tell me they have claimed full self employed furlough, whereas as far as I can see they are working as normal.

So yes, it should end, unless there are very clever ways of targeting it only at the true areas of need.

[WadingInDeeper]

Furlough was good for me. Our work came to a dramatic halt, but it mean't I could furlough everyone except me, slowly bring people out of furlough when things started to pick up, and bring some in and out of furlough. At some point it will need to stop, and I think there will be companies where it is just putting off the inevitable redundancies. But, I don't know when it should stop.

Like some of the posters above, I hope those who have misused the system get caught and fined/forced to pay back, with interest, what they have taken. I think if any are investigated it will be hard to cover it up.

[KateR]

I think we're delaying the inevitable with a lot of people, unfortunately. What you're saying regarding benefits is a valid point, but I sense the government know a lot of people will end up there anyway.

yes for sure, whatever happens will not cover everyone and as I said in my first point, unemployment will go high by Christmas time and the Gov. do know that, it's a question of does it go high or up to and beyond record highs. C-19 is obviously still an issue and will be with us for quite a while, huge balancing act with many moving parts, the main aim will be to encourage, incentivize industry and the economy keeping as many in work as possible even if it becomes part time work with supplemental Gov. payments.

A lot of people are going to be in a world of hurt, the Gov. job in my opinion is to make that only apply to as low as possible, dropping furlough with nothing else will not do that, businesses and the economy in general will take a huge hit as people tighten the belt way back, no disposable income will mean no spending and it will be a knock on effect, many businesses open now will cut back or close completely throwing more people in to the same unemployment trap

Just because as usual some tosspots are scamming the scheme, it is no excuse to shut it down totally and hurt the majority, fully agree it needs tightening and stern examples should be made of these people whenever proven guilty.

[Marney&Mee]

No it won’t. I’m 100% confident in that. I’m pretty secure in it, I’m just worried if I do the right thing (to me) and get out I’ll put myself into a vulnerable situation regards work. Something has to give soon though as being in lockdown and then generally being ****** off and unhappy is having quite an effect on me lately.

You’re not alone there Dyche. Plenty have been affected by it. Good luck with it all

[Billy Balfour]

It should only be paid to those who have to shield on GPs advice and for those industries that cannot open up like the ones named above - theatres, live music venues etc.

Any employer caught 'misusing' the furlough scheme should be forced to pay the money back in full and also charged with fraud and prosecuted accordingly.

[Zlatan]

its a perfect cover story for Brexit. Lets be honest, any downside from Brexit is a tea party compared to the fallout from Covid-19

[Spijed]

Apparently Germany run a slightly scheme which is helping businesses.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -24-months

[Down_Rover]

Glad its not my call.

In its current form it is too expensive, open to abuse, and does not encourage businesses to address the issues they face

In simple terms the sooner we start this recession the sooner it will end. We cannot hide from it, it is happening

On the other hand there are sectors that are helpless, and will not survive without help

Perhaps it should be withdrawn and replaced by a new scheme targeting those that really need it

[kenyon6923]

this "stark reality" thread does make you double think why somebody very highly paid and in a very safe job (SD) has choosen to really bang that budget drum/lack of resources in these difficult times for the board/ the fans/the town ?

[NewClaret]

It needs to end for a whole number of reasons:

- it's being abused. I'll spare you the stories but I know of at least 5 people on furlough but working on the quiet. I'm sure their businesses are distressed, like many, but it's wrong to use taxpayer money to fund your wage bill.

- it traps people. Let's face it, planes aren't going to be returning to the skies in any real numbers, ditto theatres opening, etc any time soon. Leaving these schemes open basically prevents people from moving on with their lives and finding new work.

- We'll all have to pay it back at some point. That will damage the economy in years to come, dampening growth and recovery. In the end, a V might be better than a U.

- As debt spirals, our credit rating will fall and our cost of servicing this debt will heighten. That's potentially devastating, particularly with Brexit looming. We do need some fiscal responsibility somewhere along the line.

I think it should be replaced by investment in creating jobs so that they exist as people come off furlough. Not sure the govt plans (insulating homes?) really cut the mustard on that front and we need to be far more ambitious. Could be supplemented by some targeted investments in covering costs of mothballing certain businesses like theatres, airports, airline companies, etc so they survive and can reemploy people when they can reopen/demand returns.

[karatekid]

I had some building work done just after lockdown was eased by a local tradesman. When I asked if he could email me a copy of the invoice detailing all the costs involved he said he would but he had ' problems' with his computer and couldn't provide an invoice on headed paper. Me thinks he may have been claiming self employed furlough and working at the same time so didn't want any record of work done during this period hanging around. Oh and he wanted cash only as he didn't want to go to a bank as he didn't have time to queue up to withdraw money. Good job his building work was spot on.

Furlough needs to carry on but be very tightly regulated to avoid abuse of it.

[FactualFrank]

I had some building work done just after lockdown was eased by a local tradesman. When I asked if he could email me a copy of the invoice detailing all the costs involved he said he would but he had ' problems' with his computer and couldn't provide an invoice on headed paper. Me thinks he may have been claiming self employed furlough and working at the same time so didn't want any record of work done during this period hanging around. Oh and he wanted cash only as he didn't want to go to a bank as he didn't have time to queue up to withdraw money. Good job his building work was spot on.

Furlough needs to carry on but be very tightly regulated to avoid abuse of it.

I think you know the answer to all that.

But if it were me, I'd chase it up as I'd be inquisitive.

Go on... ask him to send you an invoice with everything included

[Boss Hogg]

I had some building work done just after lockdown was eased by a local tradesman. When I asked if he could email me a copy of the invoice detailing all the costs involved he said he would but he had ' problems' with his computer and couldn't provide an invoice on headed paper. Me thinks he may have been claiming self employed furlough and working at the same time so didn't want any record of work done during this period hanging around. Oh and he wanted cash only as he didn't want to go to a bank as he didn't have time to queue up to withdraw money. Good job his building work was spot on.

Furlough needs to carry on but be very tightly regulated to avoid abuse of it.

No such thing as self employed furlough.

[CombatClaret]

Dinning and tourism company I've worked for which has survived the last 45 years has just entered administration taking with it a dozen full time jobs and countless more zero hours and self employed staff.

[CombatClaret]

It should only be paid to those who have to shield on GPs advice and for those industries that cannot open up like the ones named above - theatres, live music venues etc.

Very few people in those industries on a wage/salary. Most on zero hours or self employed.

[Colburn_Claret]

You've narrowed it down way too much. For example, the whole night time economy is at risk:

Nightclubs
Theaters
Live music venues
Event spaces
etc etc etc

This is the 5th biggest industry in the UK.

I wouldn't close any of those. You don't need to fly to a theatre or nightclub, they should all be running as normal.
If an elderly person with underlying health conditions decides to go to a night club then its at his own risk.

[FactualFrank]

I wouldn't close any of those. You don't need to fly to a theatre or nightclub, they should all be running as normal.
If an elderly person with underlying health conditions decides to go to a night club then its at his own risk.

It's not just elderly people with an underlying health condition.

[Rileybobs]

I wouldn't close any of those. You don't need to fly to a theatre or nightclub, they should all be running as normal.
If an elderly person with underlying health conditions decides to go to a night club then its at his own risk.

What's the relevance of flying?

[Swizzlestick]

I had some building work done just after lockdown was eased by a local tradesman. When I asked if he could email me a copy of the invoice detailing all the costs involved he said he would but he had ' problems' with his computer and couldn't provide an invoice on headed paper. Me thinks he may have been claiming self employed furlough and working at the same time so didn't want any record of work done during this period hanging around. Oh and he wanted cash only as he didn't want to go to a bank as he didn't have time to queue up to withdraw money. Good job his building work was spot on.

Furlough needs to carry on but be very tightly regulated to avoid abuse of it.

Eh? Self employed weren’t furloughed and could carry on working couldn’t they, even if they were eligible for the grant?

[Inchy]

If we lived in a responsible world it would make sense to temporarily increase the taxes of those not effected by the lockdown to offset some of the cost of keeping people in employment.

These taxes can be paid back gradually over time.

I work in the NHS so am at no risk of losing my job. If the government turned round and temporarily increased by taxes to ensure people didn’t go short I would be all for it. Probably shouldn’t have to come to that though

[Granny WeatherWax]

I wouldn't close any of those. You don't need to fly to a theatre or nightclub, they should all be running as normal.
If an elderly person with underlying health conditions decides to go to a night club then its at his own risk.

And the most nonsensical post of the day goes too......

[Jenny55]

Dinning and tourism company I've worked for which has survived the last 45 years has just entered administration taking with it a dozen full time jobs and countless more zero hours and self employed staff.

And that is the sad thing about all of this. We all need to get back to work properly now, those who still have jobs. Then furlough would end. We cannot continue to plunge this country into a deep depression. Twenty people died today who died with Covid Which was diagnosed in the last 28 days. This is not dying on a ventilator in hospital it is dying WITH Covid, hence could have been anything. We cannot strangulate our economy because of so few deaths. Last week was the lowest Covid death rate on record since monitoring began.

[Jakubclaret]

What's the relevance of flying?

Transmission, the origin was china it's not rocket science to understand the correlation.