Is it time to make our feelings know?

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Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:17 pm

The more I read and listen to fans I know the more I hear the same feelings, the board has to sell up. The lack of investment is going to destroy our club. The best management and management team we have had in my life time could well end up leaving because they are not being backed.

Do us as fans need to make more of our feelings known? Difficult thing to do at the moment but this can’t carry on.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by cockneyclaret » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:18 pm

Good timing this, no fans in the ground 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by mdd2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:18 pm

We would certainly make our feelings known if ticket prices doubled to help with the doubling of transfer fees

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:19 pm

We should all turn our backs to the telly 33 minutes into our next game
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:21 pm

mdd2 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:18 pm
We would certainly make our feelings known if ticket prices doubled to help with the doubling of transfer fees
Ticket prices have very little effect on income in the premier league so I’m not sure on your point sorry.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by mdd2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:22 pm

My point is the fans would bleat if ticket prices went up to add a little to the small pot that we have available to get players. It is always someone else who should pay be it football or tax

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by dandeclaret » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:26 pm

If they added £5 per game, that would give them an extra £1.8m in revenue, which pays 1 of our top band players.

It's not that insignificant for Burnley.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:27 pm

Remember Icarus. Our competing the in the PL is almost dangerous for a club such as ours due to the wage commitments. Dyche is undoubtedly the best Burnley manager in most of our lifetimes, perhaps ever, but we need to be frugal in the best of times, still more when revenue is uncertain.
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Zlatan » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:27 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:26 pm
If they added £5 per game, that would give them an extra £1.8m in revenue, which pays 1 of our top band players.

It's not that insignificant for Burnley.
Not at the moment it wont

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:31 pm

I’m happy we’re in the Premier League.

There we go, I’ve done it.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:33 pm

So you guys have settled for “what will be will be”??? We’ve been in the most lucrative league in the world for 5 seasons with very little investment. That can’t carry on.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by ksrclaret » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:33 pm

Spiral wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:27 pm
Remember Icarus. Our competing the in the PL is almost dangerous for a club such as ours due to the wage commitments. Dyche is undoubtedly the best Burnley manager in most of our lifetimes, perhaps ever, but we need to be frugal in the best of times, still more when revenue is uncertain.
We literally just want a couple of players to replace the ones who’ve left.
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Duffer_ » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:35 pm

Spiral wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:27 pm
Remember Icarus. Our competing the in the PL is almost dangerous for a club such as ours due to the wage commitments. Dyche is undoubtedly the best Burnley manager in most of our lifetimes, perhaps ever, but we need to be frugal in the best of times, still more when revenue is uncertain.
I am all for prudence and frugality but if the uncertainty around our revenue is so crippling then why haven't we sold one of our crown jewels to allow the squad to be rebalanced?

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:37 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:33 pm
We literally just want a couple of players to replace the ones who’ve left.
Exactly. It’s not like the fans wanted Gareth Bale. We just want to replace the likes of Lennon and Hendrick and to improve the current group.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by COBBLE » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:38 pm

One wheel on my wagon and I'm still rolling along......

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:41 pm

You're all aware there is literally no matchday revenue in the foreseeable? The stability of a football club, like any other organisation, is hugely determined by its ability to manage and adapt to changes in revenue. Clubs up and down the land make provisions for this in the form of relegation clauses, but a shutdown of football as a spectator sport is quite literally unprecedented.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by jurek » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:41 pm

I think Garlick must be well aware of the way most fans are feeling but
that is unlikely to bother him much, if at all.
If we are in discussions re. a possible takeover then that might have influenced
Garlick although I'm far from certain we are - in discussion.

I think he's looked at the potential loss in revenue over the next season
(20-30m?) and probably decided on the worst case scenario and as a result decided
he can't sanction 20 -30m spend on new players.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:44 pm

For what it's worth I'd like a few new players in, too, and it's ridiculous to infer from what I've posted that I don't want that, or that I'm saying that is an unreasonable ask, but I happen to think that there's an element of impatience among some folks that still, after all these years, surprises me coming from Burnley fans.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Boss Hogg » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:44 pm

Garlick doesn’t have to be accountable to fans at the moment. It’s an ideal scenario for him. It will be a different story when fans return or after a couple of seasons in The Championship but he may not be here by then.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:46 pm

Spiral wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:41 pm
You're all aware there is literally no matchday revenue in the foreseeable? The stability of a football club, like any other organisation, is hugely determined by its ability to manage and adapt to changes in revenue. Clubs up and down the land make provisions for this in the form of relegation clauses, but a shutdown of football as a spectator sport is quite literally unprecedented.
If we drop out of this league the drop in revenue will be far more than the loss in spectator revenue.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by willsclarets » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:47 pm

It's not as simple as sanctioning 20-30 million on new players, because there are reverse implied odds here. As good as Dyche is, he is more likely to keep us in the premier league with a better squad. That's just a fact. Gambling that SD will either not leave or be able to perform miracles again with a weaker squad, is bad business. And let's not forget that this season will be more tightly packed with games, and injuries are always an unknown. Not spending 30 million could well cost us much more than that.
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:47 pm

Being within earshot of booing fans makes a person no more or less accountable to whatever you think he's accountable to. This is f***ing embarrassing.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:48 pm

bf2k wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:46 pm
If we drop out of this league the drop in revenue will be far more than the loss in spectator revenue.
No $hit, but I can only assume we've made provisions for the drop in revenue that would come from relegation.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Spiral wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:48 pm
No $hit, but I can only assume we've made provisions for the drop in revenue that would come from relegation.
No sh!t. It’s called not investing in the squad.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by jdrobbo » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pm

ALL WE WANT IS TRANSPARENCY!!!

If our model won’t enable us to buy any more players, then I’d respect Garlick more if he just spoke out. Yes, I accept that the chairman usually says little and leaves it to the manager, but now is the time for him to step up. Our manager deserves so much more. Garlick is perhaps fortunate in this sense, that he doesn’t have fans in the ground: he’d likely get a very rude awakening.
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by willsclarets » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pm

Spiral wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:48 pm
No $hit, but I can only assume we've made provisions for the drop in revenue that would come from relegation.
So we've made a plan for going down, excellent. What is our plan for staying up? Hope Sean Syche pulls a rabbit out the hat again?

We had 3 kids on the bench tonight, a LB on the right side of midfield and a premier league debutante at CB.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:57 pm

bf2k wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:51 pm
No sh!t. It’s called not investing in the squad.
There's uncertainty over broadcast revenue which will have a bearing on sponsorship revenue in the time covering our contractual outlays, and the only certainty on matchday revenue is that there is none. I'm not saying we shouldn't as a rule spend money, I'm saying there's a legitimate argument for not over-committing on transfer fees and contracts.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:57 pm

jdrobbo wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pm
ALL WE WANT IS TRANSPARENCY!!!

If our model won’t enable us to buy any more players, then I’d respect Garlick more if he just spoke out. Yes, I accept that the chairman usually says little and leaves it to the manager, but now is the time for him to step up. Our manager deserves so much more. Garlick is perhaps fortunate in this sense, that he doesn’t have fans in the ground: he’d likely get a very rude awakening.
That’s summed it up better than I did :)

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:01 pm

willsclarets wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pm
So we've made a plan for going down, excellent. What is our plan for staying up? Hope Sean Syche pulls a rabbit out the hat again?

We had 3 kids on the bench tonight, a LB on the right side of midfield and a premier league debutante at CB.
If we haven't made plans for going down then we're utterly f***ed.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by jurek » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:03 pm

How do we make our feelings known?

Send a petition to the Chairman?
Attempt to raise some money for the club?
How's about some crowd funding?

I'd be willing to put up £500 at a push a thousand.
Could we find another 20000 or more?

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:03 pm

jdrobbo wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pm
ALL WE WANT IS TRANSPARENCY!!!

If our model won’t enable us to buy any more players, then I’d respect Garlick more if he just spoke out. Yes, I accept that the chairman usually says little and leaves it to the manager, but now is the time for him to step up. Our manager deserves so much more. Garlick is perhaps fortunate in this sense, that he doesn’t have fans in the ground: he’d likely get a very rude awakening.
We will buy more players.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:03 pm

Spiral wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:57 pm
There's uncertainty over broadcast revenue which will have a bearing on sponsorship revenue in the time covering our contractual outlays, and the only certainty on matchday revenue is that there is none. I'm not saying we shouldn't as a rule spend money, I'm saying there's a legitimate argument for not over-committing on transfer fees and contracts.
I understand what you are saying but this board have form. If the board had invested well in previous seasons you could understand them pulling back this season... but they haven’t. Season after season the lack of investment in the playing squad means any attempt to not overcommit this season doesn’t wash.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:05 pm

jurek wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:03 pm
How do we make our feelings known?

Send a petition to the Chairman?
Attempt to raise some money for the club?
How's about some crowd funding?

I'd be willing to put up £500 at a push a thousand.
Could we find another 20000 or more?
Come on get real. Even your hugely optimistic £20m raised isn’t going to go far in this league.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:06 pm

bf2k wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:03 pm
I understand what you are saying but this board have form. If the board had invested well in previous seasons you could understand them pulling back this season... but they haven’t. Season after season the lack of investment in the playing squad means any attempt to not overcommit this season doesn’t wash.
Year after year we’ve stayed in the Premier League and even managed two top ten finishes.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:09 pm

jurek wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:03 pm
How do we make our feelings known?

Send a petition to the Chairman?
Attempt to raise some money for the club?
How's about some crowd funding?

I'd be willing to put up £500 at a push a thousand.
Could we find another 20000 or more?
You really think we could raise several million?

Because, realistically, that's what we'd need to raise in order to add to the wages of anyone we could afford in the first place.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by bf2k » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:11 pm

martin_p wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:06 pm
Year after year we’ve stayed in the Premier League and even managed two top ten finishes.
With an average squad. We’ve now not got a squad never mind average.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:13 pm

bf2k wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:11 pm
With an average squad. We’ve now not got a squad never mind average.
Yet we finished tenth last season.

Realistically it's only Hendrick that's different from that squad.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by mdd2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:17 pm

bf2k wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:33 pm
So you guys have settled for “what will be will be”??? We’ve been in the most lucrative league in the world for 5 seasons with very little investment. That can’t carry on.
Well bf2k as you appear to have knowledge of how to invest in football pray tell how it is done legally for say a group of directors who are perhaps worth about £100million tops, who give their time for nothing and do not wish to lose much of that £100million.
Most of the £4-500million from the last 4 seasons will have gone on transfers and wages with an apparent £40million surplus until the Covid disaster some of which will have been spent on all that is needed for infection control, reimbursing sponsors, ticket holders and to fill in for lost TV monies.
I am sure I am not the only one who would like to know how it is done, not to mention quite a few football clubs around the country.
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by claret2018 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:18 pm

Brownhill was Hendricks replacement, as for Lennon, why would we need to replace a player who did nowt. Dunne replaces Gibson as 4th choice CB.

Ideally we’d get a couple of bodies in, which we will probably do a day or two before the deadline which is still a couple of weeks off. No need to panic.
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by EarbyClaret » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:28 pm

claret2018 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:18 pm
Brownhill was Hendricks replacement, as for Lennon, why would we need to replace a player who did nowt. Dunne replaces Gibson as 4th choice CB.
I'd have said Brownhill was Defour's replacement as a CM

Hendrick only played wide-right because JBG was injured and he offered more defensively that Lennon - we have no like-for-like wide right cover - Lennon has gone, JBG is injured again, Brady can do a job there but is injured again - we can't move Brownhill out there from CM because Cork is injured

So we need two replacements for Hendrick and Lennon

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Burnleyareback2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:32 pm

Good to get another thread going on the subject.

We continue to build squads to win the Championship. That’s has to be the reality with anything else a bonus. Don’t forget though that having a team that would win the Championship is one hell of an achievement for a club like ours.
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by dsr » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:51 pm

mdd2 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:17 pm
Well bf2k as you appear to have knowledge of how to invest in football pray tell how it is done legally for say a group of directors who are perhaps worth about £100million tops, who give their time for nothing and do not wish to lose much of that £100million.
Most of the £4-500million from the last 4 seasons will have gone on transfers and wages with an apparent £40million surplus until the Covid disaster some of which will have been spent on all that is needed for infection control, reimbursing sponsors, ticket holders and to fill in for lost TV monies.
I am sure I am not the only one who would like to know how it is done, not to mention quite a few football clubs around the country.
Actually it could legally be done. Bournemouth showed how. By borrowing, essentially; you sign a good manager, you keep him, and you back him with borrowed money. They borrowed £100m from their owner, it's true, which is an option we can't do; but also they borrowed from banks, from other finance houses, they bought players on HP, they accepted much lower transfer fees for the sake of getting cash up front rather than deferred. They spent nothing on the ground, which they don't own, and they spent nothing on training facilities.

The reason this is legal (Bournemouth finished last season about a quarter of a billion in debt) is that they still had assets - the players. When they got relegated, they could sell all the players that have a value, and play the next season with the expensive dross that no=one will take off your hands at any price, and some free transfers. And if that's still not enough, then as long as the balance sheet looked OK the directors can't be prosecuted even if the club goes bust owing money all round.

Of course, some people might argue that our way is better than Bournemouth's. That's a valid argument. But as to how directors can legally spend the money, that's how to do it.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:57 pm

bf2k wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:17 pm
The more I read and listen to fans I know the more I hear the same feelings, the board has to sell up. The lack of investment is going to destroy our club. The best management and management team we have had in my life time could well end up leaving because they are not being backed.

Do us as fans need to make more of our feelings known? Difficult thing to do at the moment but this can’t carry on.
Hi bf2k, are we all ready to back them? How much do we need to raise from the fans to buy a first teamer and pay his wages? Do you think we are all up for that? Do you think if we all chipped in the price of 2 adult season tickets, say £1,000 each, we could raise £20 million? Would that be enough?

There are one or two on this thread who've said they are ready to chip in.

Thing is, what's the average wage in Burnley? Let's assume same as the rest of the country, so somewhere around £27,500 p.a.(See note). Some of our fans are collecting their pensions, so maybe not everyone is making the average. (Though, we also have the stocks and shares and crypto threads... maybe there's some higher earners, somewhere). How many of us want to chip in from our £27,500 p.a. to fund a Premier League footballer who I guess wouldn't understand what "p.a." meant alongside £27,500. I'd guess some would think it means "per appearance" and is the bonus in addition to a weekly wage of something more than that amount. That might be the issue....

Note: for these purposes, I've ignored covid-19 and I've ignored the redundancies at Rolls Royce and elsewhere.

UTC

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by KateR » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:01 am

I'll stick with the board for now thank you :)

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by what_no_pies » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:33 am

"Lack of investment is going to soil our club"

Lovely new training ground says differently. They've invested our money in exactly the right places.

Whilst covid makes things uncertain we're absolutely right to be cautious.

Some fans would just chuck money around and thing staying out the relegation zone is successful. What if that's at the cost of unsustainable debt?

Anyone remember Bolton? Blackburn perhaps?

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:10 am

Spiral wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:27 pm
Remember Icarus. Our competing the in the PL is almost dangerous for a club such as ours due to the wage commitments. Dyche is undoubtedly the best Burnley manager in most of our lifetimes, perhaps ever, but we need to be frugal in the best of times, still more when revenue is uncertain.
you ordered your white flag ? We are guaranteed 100 million + (or whatever the figure is) by being in the PL - if we drop........that's when the revenue is uncertain and that's why Garlick needs to get Dyche at least 2-3 players
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Spiral
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:30 am

Vegas Claret wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:10 am
you ordered your white flag ? We are guaranteed 100 million + (or whatever the figure is) by being in the PL - if we drop........that's when the revenue is uncertain and that's why Garlick needs to get Dyche at least 2-3 players
I hate to say this but the revenue streams upon relegation are not uncertain in the sense that they are guaranteed to fall, and as such, clubs - ours and those others run sensibly - make contractual provisions to guard against this event; but the point you're missing is that the 'guarantee' of future revenue streams - even those falling within the context of premier league survival - is precarious, and this uncertainty makes over-stretching a much bigger risk for Burnley than in 'normal' times. I think we'll sign players in the end (like we always do, like we haven't had this thread ten thousand times before) and we obviously could do with additions, but some of you are acting as though...*waves arm at the entire state of the world*...has no bearing on business. It's delusional to believe we could pull out a million or five just to get a transfer done on a Monday rather than wait for better value on a Tuesday.

Vegas Claret
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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:53 am

Spiral wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:30 am
I hate to say this but the revenue streams upon relegation are not uncertain in the sense that they are guaranteed to fall, and as such, clubs - ours and those others run sensibly - make contractual provisions to guard against this event; but the point you're missing is that the 'guarantee' of future revenue streams - even those falling within the context of premier league survival - is precarious, and this uncertainty makes over-stretching a much bigger risk for Burnley than in 'normal' times. I think we'll sign players in the end (like we always do, like we haven't had this thread ten thousand times before) and we obviously could do with additions, but some of you are acting as though...*waves arm at the entire state of the world*...has no bearing on business. It's delusional to believe we could pull out a million or five just to get a transfer done on a Monday rather than wait for better value on a Tuesday.
I'm not missing anything, but I also don't live life like I'm running scared from the next day. Clearly there has to be be a sense and reality approach but giving Dyche no players to compete at this level is so far removed from a sensible reality it's embarrassing - it works both ways.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Spiral » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:13 am

Vegas Claret wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:53 am
I'm not missing anything, but I also don't live life like I'm running scared from the next day.
So were the famous last words of every bankrupted moron who arrogantly believed his business to be a manifestation of his character, and not a matter of arithmetic and his ability to navigate his market. If ever a phrase more adequately demonstrated the rhetorical posturing presented by those led by their sense of gratification...

Pull your head from your arse and stop embarrassing this club. Regardless of the club, it isn't 'confidence' or 'fear' which drives recruitment - it's the logic of the market.

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Re: Is it time to make our feelings know?

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:19 am

Spiral wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:13 am
So were the famous last words of every bankrupted moron who arrogantly believed his business to be a manifestation of his character, and not a matter of arithmetic and his ability to navigate his market. If ever a phrase more adequately demonstrated the rhetorical posturing presented by those led by their sense of gratification...

Pull your head from your arse and stop embarrassing this club. Regardless of the club, it isn't 'confidence' or 'fear' which drives recruitment - it's the logic of the market.
If you think every successful business has been built off never taking a slight risk then it's you who has your head stuck somewhere.

I'll give you an example from personal experience. I used to work with a relatively new company who one early winter were bordering on not being able to pay their staff - however, they had great faith in their staff and sought investment of just short of a million quid when it would have been easier to just close the business. Many years later they are going very strongly in their sector, are one of the leaders of the market and have many associations with internationally recognized companies - all because they took a calculated risk (note calculated, not bat **** crazy like spending 100 million in the transfer window)

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