I'm using the houses idea as basically an example if you like and probably not a good one, I accept. BUT the main thrust of what I'm trying to say is that for someone to stump up £200 million just to take control of the club and THEN to have to get spending pretty hefty sums almost immediately on players just to protect their "asset" as a premier league club (with no guarantee of success) when unlike Garlick and Kilby et al, they aren't even fans, but hard nosed businessmen, is stretching it and makes me think why would they???? The longer this thing drags on, it seems the more proven chancers and charlatans with "form" in these situations seem to be circling round it and the more worried I get. I was suggesting that for investors to pay out that kind of money, they must be daft or blind if they think they'll make it back with interest from Burnley the football team. So what game are the REALLY playing is the point I'm making??arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:56 pmDark Cloud.....are you serious about houses on Turf Moor and making a profit.
Think about that you are saying.
ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
I'd be a lot happier if any would be buyer came out with a business plan which included investment in the playing side.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
In all seriousness how many new owners of football clubs have “asset stripped” then left?
The only ones I can actually think of is the Oystons and they were already the owners when they got the Premier League bounty.
The only ones I can actually think of is the Oystons and they were already the owners when they got the Premier League bounty.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
I take your point, but maybe it would be more relevant to ask "how many new owners of football clubs are absolutely clueless about how to run a football club and what it means to the fans?" The list is endless!Winstonswhite wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:17 pmIn all seriousness how many new owners of football clubs have “asset stripped” then left?
The only ones I can actually think of is the Oystons and they were already the owners when they got the Premier League bounty.
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Where is this school?charlton_mad wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:07 pm...... stripped girls school of St Elphins............
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Too true!Dark Cloud wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:23 pmI take your point, but maybe it would be more relevant to ask "how many new owners of football clubs are absolutely clueless about how to run a football club and what it means to the fans?" The list is endless!
My post was more to the people worried about potential asset strippers. I personally think there are potentially far more financially attractive ways for someone with a spare 200 million quid to spend their money!
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Not much. There's a covenant that it's got to be used for sports or football or similar and there have been plenty of similar sized plots around the town centre that haven't been in great demand.charlton_mad wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:50 pmYour forums views on this has generally been about selling players to match and profit above the £200m, but whats your ground worth without players, to a developer?
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
The flip side to that is why spend the money just to destroy what they spent the money on?Dark Cloud wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:07 pmI'm using the houses idea as basically an example if you like and probably not a good one, I accept. BUT the main thrust of what I'm trying to say is that for someone to stump up £200 million just to take control of the club and THEN to have to get spending pretty hefty sums almost immediately on players just to protect their "asset" as a premier league club (with no guarantee of success) when unlike Garlick and Kilby et al, they aren't even fans, but hard nosed businessmen, is stretching it and makes me think why would they???? The longer this thing drags on, it seems the more proven chancers and charlatans with "form" in these situations seem to be circling round it and the more worried I get. I was suggesting that for investors to pay out that kind of money, they must be daft or blind if they think they'll make it back with interest from Burnley the football team. So what game are the REALLY playing is the point I'm making??
The fact is that nobody actually knows what their plan is as detail is very thin on the ground but we have got fans posting rabid conspiracy theories and Charlton fans posting articles about schools from 2005 and a bloke who to my knowledge has not been mentioned linked to our deal.
The fact they seem to be prepared to shell out £200m is a pretty positive sign to me.
All of this on the back drop of having some implicit trust I. Mike Garlick to run the club but seemingly no trust in him selling it.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
This thread is getting like the summer transfer one it goes on and on and nothing happens.
If this takeover doesn't happened this season Dyche will be gone with Burnley hurtling back down to the lower leagues
If this takeover doesn't happened this season Dyche will be gone with Burnley hurtling back down to the lower leagues
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
You could possibly argue this is what's happening at Hull (admittedly apart from the leaving part).Winstonswhite wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:17 pmIn all seriousness how many new owners of football clubs have “asset stripped” then left?
The only ones I can actually think of is the Oystons and they were already the owners when they got the Premier League bounty.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
I totally agree re Mike Garlick. He's been brilliant for the club (along with SD) and has my respect and my trust and I'm banking(??) on his heart ruling his undoubtedly excellent business head where BFC is concerned and not doing anything which will endanger his legacy just to pocket a buck...or even £200 million bucks!!!!arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:31 pmThe flip side to that is why spend the money just to destroy what they spent the money on?
The fact is that nobody actually knows what their plan is as detail is very thin on the ground but we have got fans posting rabid conspiracy theories and Charlton fans posting articles about schools from 2005 and a bloke who to my knowledge has not been mentioned linked to our deal.
The fact they seem to be prepared to shell out £200m is a pretty positive sign to me.
All of this on the back drop of having some implicit trust I. Mike Garlick to run the club but seemingly no trust in him selling it.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Property speculation - certainly at the £200m price tag is a none starter for our club. Average house prices around Turf Moor are £100k - £150k this is not a part of the world were building a couple of thousand apartments will rake in a fortune, this is a low income town and Turf Moor is in the middle of an area with some of the lowest incomes - The town already has an oversupply of housing with hundreds still lying empty (it was thousands less than 20 years ago, many were demolished and there has been a significant burst of housebuilding by housing trusts). Also while our training ground is in a beautiful area and was once thought to be worth over £20m it cannot be built on - that option was tested quite some time ago.charlton_mad wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:50 pmYour forums views on this has generally been about selling players to match and profit above the £200m, but whats your ground worth without players, to a developer?
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
That's the big difference between S.East London and Burnley - land values are not so great in the latter. You can see this if you watch Homes Under the Hammer (or similar) when they are buying property in Burnley for under £100,000.charlton_mad wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:50 pmYour forums views on this has generally been about selling players to match and profit above the £200m, but whats your ground worth without players, to a developer?
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
I was just about to say haven’t the owners of Hull lost an absolute fortune. I swear I read that at one point they were paying close 40m a season just to keep the club afloatWinstonswhite wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:39 pmSurely leaving quids in is the whole point of asset stripping?
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
I totally appreciate where you are coming from.arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:31 pmThe flip side to that is why spend the money just to destroy what they spent the money on?
The fact is that nobody actually knows what their plan is as detail is very thin on the ground but we have got fans posting rabid conspiracy theories and Charlton fans posting articles about schools from 2005 and a bloke who to my knowledge has not been mentioned linked to our deal.
The fact they seem to be prepared to shell out £200m is a pretty positive sign to me.
All of this on the back drop of having some implicit trust I. Mike Garlick to run the club but seemingly no trust in him selling it.
My concern is simply this. £200m is fine for the seller, but it in no way improves our situation. We have done remarkably well with MG in charge.
What are we getting that guarantees better?
Can we really trust anything that involves this Farnell character, who appears to have a bit of history with failed owners?
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
the Allam family (like Ashley at Newcastle) have been insistent that they want all their money back in the sale of the club, they have sought to bring down the price by repaying the loans they have made over the las 3 years. Ashley backed himself into a corner by saying the £110m the club owes him would not be repaid until the club was sold hence the price never really dropping
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Yes and how much has Ashley been demanding for the last 5 years- 300 million? And numbers being banded about with us range from 170-200? If I was Garlick I’d bite their hand off.Chester Perry wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:43 pmthe Allam family (like Ashley at Newcastle) have been insistent that they want all their money back in the sale of the club, they have sought to bring down the price by repaying the loans they have made over the las 3 years. Ashley backed himself into a corner by saying the £110m the club owes him would not be repaid until the club was sold hence the price never really dropping
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Chester Perry wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:36 pmProperty speculation - certainly at the £200m price tag is a none starter for our club. Average house prices around Turf Moor are £100k - £150k this is not a part of the world were building a couple of thousand apartments will rake in a fortune, this is a low income town and Turf Moor is in the middle of an area with some of the lowest incomes - The town already has an oversupply of housing with hundreds still lying empty (it was thousands less than 20 years ago, many were demolished and there has been a significant burst of housebuilding by housing trusts). Also while our training ground is in a beautiful area and was once thought to be worth over £20m it cannot be built on - that option was tested quite some time ago.
You are being more than generous with the £100-150k average house price. Turf Moor is next to worthless, Burnley Council would never give planning permission for anything but a football stadium.
Paying £200 million to asset strip would be crazy, it would not make any sense financially, they would be well out of pocket
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Yes but why spend £200m with no plan to invest anything else?boatshed bill wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:42 pmI totally appreciate where you are coming from.
My concern is simply this. £200m is fine for the seller, but it in no way improves our situation. We have done remarkably well with MG in charge.
What are we getting that guarantees better?
Can we really trust anything that involves this Farnell character, who appears to have a bit of history with failed owners?
We aren’t getting anything that guarantees better. There are no guarantees in any business transaction football or otherwise but if Mike G wants to sell, as he clearly does then we’ve got to trust that those willing to part with £200m have a plan to try and take us forward. Why spend £200m if you don’t.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
I suppose that all depends on whose money it actually is.arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:00 pmYes but why spend £200m with no plan to invest anything else?
We aren’t getting anything that guarantees better. There are no guarantees in any business transaction football or otherwise but if Mike G wants to sell, as he clearly does then we’ve got to trust that those willing to part with £200m have a plan to try and take us forward. Why spend £200m if you don’t.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Yes because clearly someone will just give them £200m with no questions asked.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:04 pmI suppose that all depends on whose money it actually is.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
And all this points to why, imo opinion, you're probably much better off being a mega rich man's plaything (see Abramovich or Mansoor or the guy at B'mouth or whatever) rather than being bought as an "investment" or by some such firm. The former are happy to chuck money into their toy as it's their hobby and they enjoy it. The latter most often try to turn a profit and get a return on their investment and find it's almost impossible to do in football. Yes, some rich owners are rubbish and some lose interest, but if you get a good one (like Roman) they are the most "realistic" type of owners because profitability and balance sheets come at the bottom of a long list of priorities.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Who knows?arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:11 pmYes because clearly someone will just give them £200m with no questions asked.
Once I genuinely believed that all sportsmen were honest,
That nobody would benefit from gambling on their own failure.
I have very little trust these days.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Garlick is in an almost unique position in football these days. He bought into something (which he genuinely felt passionate about) when it was cheap, stumbling and unheard of and unloved outside East Lancashire and basically nobody with any decent money was remotely interested. 8? years later it's worth a bloody fortune (on paper) and he could make an absolute shed load if he sells. But that really isn't the norm in football. It's mostly a great way to lose a fortune. (Exhibit A. Venkys)
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Few people saying that we wont get any investment in the squad.
Going to make that new Chief Exec look like a silly sausage when he has publicly confirmed that we are going to see better transfer windows ahead..
Going to make that new Chief Exec look like a silly sausage when he has publicly confirmed that we are going to see better transfer windows ahead..
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Dark Cloud wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:15 pmAnd all this points to why, imo opinion, you're probably much better off being a mega rich man's plaything (see Abramovich or Mansoor or the guy at B'mouth or whatever) rather than being bought as an "investment" or by some such firm. The former are happy to chuck money into their toy as it's their hobby and they enjoy it. The latter most often try to turn a profit and get a return on their investment and find it's almost impossible to do in football. Yes, some rich owners are rubbish and some lose interest, but if you get a good one (like Roman) they are the most "realistic" type of owners because profitability and balance sheets come at the bottom of a long list of priorities.
so far you would have to say that in terms of return on investment (the sum of money put into the club) against it's current valuation (less debt owed) that it is a close tie between FSG and Sheik Mansour as to who have made the greatest returns in pure monetary terms (based on current valuations of football operations) though I would say long term CFG will be the ultimate winner.
If you look at it as a multiple of actual investment FSG win hands down followed by the Glazers - Roman Abramovich is low down the list (and still has to fund a new stadium - at north of £1 billion) and he has owned the club for 16 years now
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Boden will be told to stand down soon!Top Claret wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:32 pmThis thread is getting like the summer transfer one it goes on and on and nothing happens.
If this takeover doesn't happened this season Dyche will be gone with Burnley hurtling back down to the lower leagues
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Well the council would give permission if the football stadium was moved elsewhere. The land wouldn’t be worth too much though.Top Claret wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:49 pmYou are being more than generous with the £100-150k average house price. Turf Moor is next to worthless, Burnley Council would never give planning permission for anything but a football stadium.
Paying £200 million to asset strip would be crazy, it would not make any sense financially, they would be well out of pocket
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
I wouldn't be too sure about that - the club's importance to the town centre economy is huge - from an American perspective it is telling that in the MLS they will only sanction new stadiums in urban areas where you can walk up to stadiums - they value that European tradiiton
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Don't intend to get drawn into any debate about this as I'm not even supporting this theory of an asset stripping plan, but I didn't forget wages.dandeclaret wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:20 amI presume that they’re not paying any wages (£66m is it?) per season, so £200m for your 3 years quotes .... means that they’re now £50m short of break even.... where is that meat you talk about?
I stated that selling our prized assets would significantly reduce the wage bill. Not renewing those other contracts coming to an end and not taking the 1 year options would further (significantly) lower this. Replace said players with youngsters and a few journeymen and the wage bill could feasibly be halved in a relatively short space of time. Alternatively take the 1 year option on a few players and stick them on transfer list for a knockdown fee could be even more lucrative.
As another rooster mentioned, we're fairly cash rich too (about £50m reportedly in the bank) which I didn't add.
I'm no expert in these matters, but if you add our other assets to the list (I didn't see any need to) it seems that there would be meat on the bone for anyone with such intentions.
The fact they'd never get to step foot in Burnley again probably wouldn't trouble them too much either...
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Neither bid would asset strip the club...
To suggest that they would is absolutely ludicrous. They’re both bidding for a seat at the top table and all the spoils and voting rights that go with that.
In a very simple and understated manner:
One is a state funded acquisition that is an extension of the state wars in the Middle East the other is a private equity funded acquisition that wants to build into the northern powerhouse.
Give your heads a wobble, have a beverage of your choice and calm down.
To suggest that they would is absolutely ludicrous. They’re both bidding for a seat at the top table and all the spoils and voting rights that go with that.
In a very simple and understated manner:
One is a state funded acquisition that is an extension of the state wars in the Middle East the other is a private equity funded acquisition that wants to build into the northern powerhouse.
Give your heads a wobble, have a beverage of your choice and calm down.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Which is the more likely to succeed DJW, and how close are we to a conclusion ?
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
So Farnell has to only pass the directors test which seems like the final hurdle? I assume the deal is done and we’re waiting on the green light from the PL?
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Is Farnell even becoming a director because I assume he hasn’t got the money required to buy and run a football club.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Boden has tweeted that Alan Pace has travelled up from London to view properties in the Rossendale area
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
randomclaret2 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:09 pmBoden has tweeted that Alan Pace has travelled up from London to view properties in the Rossendale area
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Already thinks he is too good for Burnley woodrandomclaret2 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:09 pmBoden has tweeted that Alan Pace has travelled up from London to view properties in the Rossendale area
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Why doesn't he just buy the house that Phil Collins never lived in?randomclaret2 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:09 pmBoden has tweeted that Alan Pace has travelled up from London to view properties in the Rossendale area
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Hopefully nearing a conclusion.....which group is your personal choice or do you believe both good offers ?Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:58 amNeither bid would asset strip the club...
To suggest that they would is absolutely ludicrous. They’re both bidding for a seat at the top table and all the spoils and voting rights that go with that.
In a very simple and understated manner:
One is a state funded acquisition that is an extension of the state wars in the Middle East the other is a private equity funded acquisition that wants to build into the northern powerhouse.
Give your heads a wobble, have a beverage of your choice and calm down.
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
since the £200M figure has been announced its been assumed (as far as I can see on here) that that is the purchase price. It could quite well be a £200M package, of which an amount is the purchase price and the rest is the investment in the team. We just don't really know, although I have seen figures of £150-170M for the purchase, which leave the rest for investment...???
I'm still nervous about our club, but I'm not losing sleep because I cant affect any of it in any way at all. What will be will be...
I'm still nervous about our club, but I'm not losing sleep because I cant affect any of it in any way at all. What will be will be...
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
There's proof of funds, right there! Never in doubt....randomclaret2 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:09 pmBoden has tweeted that Alan Pace has travelled up from London to view properties in the Rossendale area
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
I believe both have merits and both have concerns for BFC and the wider communities.
I believe there are viable conclusions for both parties and a possible third party bid that I understand has been dismissed out of hand.
If I was casting a vote, and not knowing the intricacies of both deals, I would go for the second bid as I believe it gives us the best opportunity to cling to the top table. A top table that we can already see shifting.
I believe there are viable conclusions for both parties and a possible third party bid that I understand has been dismissed out of hand.
If I was casting a vote, and not knowing the intricacies of both deals, I would go for the second bid as I believe it gives us the best opportunity to cling to the top table. A top table that we can already see shifting.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Is the ' second bid ' the Egyptian's ?
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
We had nearer to £40m in the bank as at June 2019.... there’s a couple of tiny things happened in the world since then which suggest that nearly 18 months later that might have gone down a tad !what_no_pies wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:41 amDon't intend to get drawn into any debate about this as I'm not even supporting this theory of an asset stripping plan, but I didn't forget wages.
I stated that selling our prized assets would significantly reduce the wage bill. Not renewing those other contracts coming to an end and not taking the 1 year options would further (significantly) lower this. Replace said players with youngsters and a few journeymen and the wage bill could feasibly be halved in a relatively short space of time. Alternatively take the 1 year option on a few players and stick them on transfer list for a knockdown fee could be even more lucrative.
As another rooster mentioned, we're fairly cash rich too (about £50m reportedly in the bank) which I didn't add.
I'm no expert in these matters, but if you add our other assets to the list (I didn't see any need to) it seems that there would be meat on the bone for anyone with such intentions.
The fact they'd never get to step foot in Burnley again probably wouldn't trouble them too much either...
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
How are the wealthy owners getting around Financial fair play in the current climate as I would have thought they cant just put money into their respective clubs to keep them ticking over?
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
If Man City can get away with spending a billion plus on transfer fees under the scam of blatant lies about Saudi sponsorship deals and still not get banned from the Champions League (and PSG do the same with their Qatar owners for years) then I don’t think there will be any issues whatsoever with billionaire owners subsidising the inevitable losses that most (if not all) Premier League clubs will be posting this year and possible next year too.
Our owners can’t or won’t do that but fortunately we did have something to fall back on and cushion the blow in terms of our cash balances to help cover the shortfall in revenues and pay our operating expenses ‘ wages. We will still post losses though.
Plus the impact on match day revenues for Burnley is far less than some of the big clubs with Arsenal and Spurs the most reliant with 30% and 29% respectively of their total revenues coming from match day income (and that is a lot of money).
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
FFP regulation was effectively suspended by both UEFA and the Premier League for the 2019/20 season - the idea being that the rules would apply across the 2019/20 2020/21 seasons combined, but that assumes fans back in October and for the rest of the season,. I expect the assessment period will soon move to 2019/20, 2020/21 and 2021/22 which is a full FFP window assessment - and allows the unscrupulous a certain leeway, though accounts are still being monitored.
In the meantime, the 2 most popular ways for adding funds are rights issues (new shares) and company loans - FFP does not seek to manage debt (just losses). So Aston Villa and West Ham have had rights issues, everyone (including West Ham and Villa) bar our club has taken on loans/or additional credit.
It should be noted that every club bar those that were promoted in the summer has reduced the playing staff by at least 10% and often more.
I have speculated on the MMT that the longer the pandemic enforces the closed door games, the stronger our relative position will be if we stay in the Premier League, particularly if it continues into the 2021/22 season (even more broadcast rebates and depressed TV market for the next cycle) - that is when our cost adjustments and zero debt position will mean losses (if any) are minimised - others will have ever mounting debt and growing losses, particularly those that have factored their TV revenues.
Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
Which makes our extremely frugal no show in the transfer market even more bafflingI have speculated on the MMT that the longer the pandemic enforces the closed door games, the stronger our relative position will be if we stay in the Premier League, particularly if it continues into the 2021/22 season (even more broadcast rebates and depressed TV market for the next cycle) - that is when our cost adjustments and zero debt position will mean losses (if any) are minimised - others will have ever mounting debt and growing losses, particularly those that have factored their TV revenues.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover
no it doesn't, it is fully aligned with the long view from a financial perspective, it demonstrates a belief in the manager and the player resources and encourages the manager to use some of the young talent the club has invested so much in developing
to be clear I am not saying it is right or wrong, it is just what the club seems to be doing