ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:36 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:48 pm
Football club owners have never voted for a rule that makes it more difficult for them to sell their clubs, or indeed a rule that would restrict the price they may achieve from selling their club - we are told all 20 clubs voted this new rule through

your statement appears to carry an implicit assumption that this was done for the good of the game - more cynical observers would suggest that the Premier League is just using this as another message to the government that they are perfectly capable of managing the game on their own.

I take the rule to be one that helps sellers to ensure that anyone buying their asset has the means by which to ensure payment is made
To some intent we say the same thing. The object is to ensure that buyers are sufficiently capitalised whether that is in the interests of the game or just expediency is a mute point.

It does no harm... and is a step in the right direction

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:01 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:11 pm
To be fair to the media, in regards to football club sales, the prospective buyers are usually uncovered early on.

There wasn't a queue of buyers.

Elkashashy has only just resurfaced with Farnell, trying to buy part of WBA but Farnell is viewed as bad news so we did well not having them get their hooks into us
Ok but I've explained why there was no interest and that is because it was over valued.

You'd have to explain why a business with a £100 million of assets that was making profit and had £80 million in the bank much of which was cashflow would not be attractive.

And the answer is that for anyone wanting to invest in a business there is little room for organic growth, however, for an investor the value is created by the £114 million in the clubs bank accounts used to pay for shares - £50 million in the first year or so, the rest later.

For someone wanting to invest in a business spending a £100 million on something that is non-revenue generating is pointless and no one would want to do it.

For a 100 million more you could buy Newcastle and fill a ground of 75,000 with over a million local population buying merch' and shirts in a city with a strong regional and international brand and create billion dollar global business much bigger than Man City.

My point was not this but to say that the new rule was likely related to capitalisation and not debt and had it been in place and did what it was purported to do (it may not have done) Mike Garlick and co would have had to sell the club for less because at £200 million it was not that exciting a proposition hence the lack of interest.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:39 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:01 pm
Ok but I've explained why there was no interest and that is because it was over valued.

You'd have to explain why a business with a £100 million of assets that was making profit and had £80 million in the bank much of which was cashflow would not be attractive.

And the answer is that for anyone wanting to invest in a business there is little room for organic growth, however, for an investor the value is created by the £114 million in the clubs bank accounts used to pay for shares - £50 million in the first year or so, the rest later.

For someone wanting to invest in a business spending a £100 million on something that is non-revenue generating is pointless and no one would want to do it.

For a 100 million more you could buy Newcastle and fill a ground of 75,000 with over a million local population buying merch' and shirts in a city with a strong regional and international brand and create billion dollar global business much bigger than Man City.

My point was not this but to say that the new rule was likely related to capitalisation and not debt and had it been in place and did what it was purported to do (it may not have done) Mike Garlick and co would have had to sell the club for less because at £200 million it was not that exciting a proposition hence the lack of interest.
Bournemouth went for £120 million, that's overpriced

Villa went for £76 million in 2016, undervalued I'd say, but they ended up drowning in losses before being sold again in 2018 and the current owners have spent a lot of money.

Recent valuations show how wildly different they can be to what fans think they should be
Screenshot_20230615-233849.png
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Swizzlestick » Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:11 am

Two new charges registered to BFC Companies House filing history in the name of Macquarie. I imagine this is who we’ve re-financed the loan with.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:15 am

Yep. That's put an end to the 2+2 = 5 speculation.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:20 am

Looks to be this season's money (excluding the initial payment) plus some of next season.
Screenshot 2023-06-16 091745.jpg
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by FeedTheArf » Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:29 am

aggi wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:20 am
Looks to be this season's money (excluding the initial payment) plus some of next season.

Screenshot 2023-06-16 091745.jpg
So we've refinanced the loan and used future TV payments as security??

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by RVclaret » Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:35 am

FeedTheArf wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:29 am
So we've refinanced the loan and used future TV payments as security??
Brought forward TV money so we have the cash flow now, seems normal practice for many clubs these days

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:36 am

FeedTheArf wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:29 am
So we've refinanced the loan and used future TV payments as security??
Plus the Turf and the training ground
Screenshot 2023-06-16 093428.jpg
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The loan with MSD was the same (actually a bit more wide ranging).

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by FeedTheArf » Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:42 am

aggi wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:36 am
Plus the Turf and the training ground

Screenshot 2023-06-16 093428.jpg

The loan with MSD was the same (actually a bit more wide ranging).
So just so I've got it right in my head (because this finance stuff reminds me of GCSE French a lot of the time), we're largely in the same position we were with MSD apart from the interest rate is lower?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:03 am

aggi wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:36 am
Plus the Turf and the training ground

Screenshot 2023-06-16 093428.jpg

The loan with MSD was the same (actually a bit more wide ranging).
The interesting thing about those properties is that they belong to Longside Properties Limited (where currently there is no charge from Macquarie) not Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:07 am

Two new charges on Burnley Football & Athletic entered into on 9th June 2023.

I can't see anywhere in the docs that states the amount of the loan. (MSD charge didn't state amount borrowed, either. We only learnt that when BFCHL published accounts).

I can't see anything that describes the interest rate(s) charged on any amount borrowed. (Ditto MSD).

I've not worked out why there are two charge docs - MSD only registered one.

These new charges do not relate to the £39 million borrowed in Nov 2022 and against which no charge(s) were registered.

Maybe the £39 million has been repaid and replaced by Macquarie loan in June 2023. However, we've got to ask, if that is the case, why?

Burnley FC are borrowing against Premier League TV money - as many other clubs do. We will all understand how incoming transfers are being financed.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:09 am

Given the situation with late filings at KCL and CVHL it appears a good thing that as far as Football appears to be concerned that they do not form part of the group that Premier League, EFL and FA would define as the Football club - because rules in the charges would already be in breach

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:12 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:07 am
Two new charges on Burnley Football & Athletic entered into on 9th June 2023.

I can't see anywhere in the docs that states the amount of the loan. (MSD charge didn't state amount borrowed, either. We only learnt that when BFCHL published accounts).

I can't see anything that describes the interest rate(s) charged on any amount borrowed. (Ditto MSD).

I've not worked out why there are two charge docs - MSD only registered one.

These new charges do not relate to the £39 million borrowed in Nov 2022 and against which no charge(s) were registered.

Maybe the £39 million has been repaid and replaced by Macquarie loan in June 2023. However, we've got to ask, if that is the case, why?

Burnley FC are borrowing against Premier League TV money - as many other clubs do. We will all understand how incoming transfers are being financed.
following an initial scan I would agree that there are two different things going on here - however one of the charges is misplaced it should be on Longside Properties Limited

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:17 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:30 pm
Elkashashy is currently being linked with West Bromwich Albion (possibly with Farnell)

West Brom: Group in advanced talks over investment in Championship club
https://archive.is/wPHvm

Kieran Maguire had this to say

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... jH6qouAAAA
I had lengthy talks with Charlton fans when this was a potential for our club. You wouldn’t want to go near Farnell if only a tenth of the information they had on him was true.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by 123EasyasBFC » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:28 am

Kieran maguire has put a tweet out about us borrowing from macquarie I think it’s already been mentioned in here

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by jedi_master » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:29 am

Taking loans out with Macquarie that are secured against future assumed TV income and the stadium/training ground will undoubtedly swell the coffers for Kompany this summer. The concern arises if and when we get relegated again - as Leicester are finding out who I believe have similar loans in place.
We become reliant on player sales in that eventuality, but that is always a gamble as you have no idea how a player will perform at this level. Risky strategy but perhaps seen as the only way to allow us to compete in the short term and possibly the only way to give Kompany the backing he wanted as assurance to not look elsewhere himself?

All assumptions obviously!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:29 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:39 pm
Bournemouth went for £120 million, that's overpriced

Villa went for £76 million in 2016, undervalued I'd say, but they ended up drowning in losses before being sold again in 2018 and the current owners have spent a lot of money.

Recent valuations show how wildly different they can be to what fans think they should be

Screenshot_20230615-233849.png
Yes, but this is debate.....

If you say to me here is a business that makes profit, has £80 million in the bank and £100 million worth of assets but no one is interested you have to say why....? You can't just say: 'no one was interested because it said so in the media'.

Why didn't the consortium that bought Newcastle for £300 million buy Burnley for £200 million? It's obvious why - you don't need me to explain. One has the potential to be a billion dollar global brand and the other doesn't....!

People are looking to buy football clubs and the club was in a very good position in the PL with a great set of numbers and a solid recent history behind them - why would it not be an attractive buy?

It's obvious why. Quite simply, it was more attractive as an investment opportunity than as a business that can be grown into something substantive.

The previous owners created an investment vehicle - it wasn't an accident.

Clubs are equal (ish) on the pitch but wildly different in terms of business propositions that is why there are wildly different sales prices.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:35 am

RVclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:35 am
Brought forward TV money so we have the cash flow now, seems normal practice for many clubs these days
and as has been noted by people like aggi and myself a difficult carousel to wean oneself off once started - it requires the discipline exercised by Garlick otherwise you get into a Leeds/Leicester loop where the footballing ambition and the promise of future revenue growth is never quite stabilised enough to step away. At some point it then suffocates the finances especially under FFP rules or after a bad season, particularly one that ends in relegation.

It is understandable for a first season following promotion (and I have been predicting as much for quite sometime). but thereafter it should be avoided, particularly given the prospect of Revenue and sustainability rules like those at UEFA coming to our leagues

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by RVclaret » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:36 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:35 am
and as has been noted by people like aggi and myself a difficult carousel to wean oneself off once started - it requires the discipline exercised by Garlick otherwise you get into a Leeds/Leicester loop where the footballing ambition and the promise of future revenue growth is never quite stabilised enough to step away. At some point it then suffocates the finances especially under FFP rules or after a bad season, particularly one that ends in relegation.

It is understandable for a first season following promotion (and I have been predicting as much for quite sometime). but thereafter it should be avoided, particularly given the prospect of Revenue and sustainability rules like those at UEFA coming to our leagues
Yes agree with all of that. It was interesting to see the ‘cash rich’ Newcastle do it last summer.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:43 am

123EasyasBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:28 am
Kieran maguire has put a tweet out about us borrowing from macquarie I think it’s already been mentioned in here
here

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 2h36suAAAA

I will say that it is entirely possible that the loan against the land assets is supplementary to the the one for £39.7m taken out last November - we could easily be back up to £65m in loans again.

I am interested to see where all this money is being used (I still have that final stage payment of £21m in the back of my mind). Of course at the end of this month is when we pay bonuses to staff and players, it is also the time we make transfer stage payments as well both general and conditional

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:45 am

RVclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:36 am
Yes agree with all of that. It was interesting to see the ‘cash rich’ Newcastle do it last summer.
That was more down to Premier League rules on cash injections - so far Newcastle have raised cash by share issues (where there are restrictions) not owner loans

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Wokingclaret » Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:36 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:43 am
here

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 2h36suAAAA

I will say that it is entirely possible that the loan against the land assets is supplementary to the the one for £39.7m taken out last November - we could easily be back up to £65m in loans again.

I am interested to see where all this money is being used (I still have that final stage payment of £21m in the back of my mind). Of course at the end of this month is when we pay bonuses to staff and players, it is also the time we make transfer stage payments as well both general and conditional
Looking at the payers we have been linked too, it looks like they are going to be costly

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:43 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:43 am
here

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 2h36suAAAA

I will say that it is entirely possible that the loan against the land assets is supplementary to the the one for £39.7m taken out last November - we could easily be back up to £65m in loans again.

I am interested to see where all this money is being used (I still have that final stage payment of £21m in the back of my mind). Of course at the end of this month is when we pay bonuses to staff and players, it is also the time we make transfer stage payments as well both general and conditional
If I am right in my speculation about this being an additional loan it could be argued that the reason for this being necessary is that the club advanced almost £20m of incoming transfer payments due this year (Wood, Pope, Collins) last year in factoring arrangements with Macquarie.

this would be an example of the carousel I have referred to as the Macquarie Loop previously

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:08 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:07 am
Two new charges on Burnley Football & Athletic entered into on 9th June 2023.

I can't see anywhere in the docs that states the amount of the loan. (MSD charge didn't state amount borrowed, either. We only learnt that when BFCHL published accounts).

I can't see anything that describes the interest rate(s) charged on any amount borrowed. (Ditto MSD).

I've not worked out why there are two charge docs - MSD only registered one.

These new charges do not relate to the £39 million borrowed in Nov 2022 and against which no charge(s) were registered.

Maybe the £39 million has been repaid and replaced by Macquarie loan in June 2023. However, we've got to ask, if that is the case, why?

Burnley FC are borrowing against Premier League TV money - as many other clubs do. We will all understand how incoming transfers are being financed.

So, if you take two strands of your own thinking to its logical conclusion Paul you would have to hypothesise that the club ran into cashflow difficulties at the time of the £39 million loan and they were given a bridging loan from the former owners because they couldn't secure finance anywhere else.

At the time of the 22 accounts the cash in the bank had fallen from £80 to £50 and finally to £12 million. You seemed to think that much of the £80 million was required to secure cashflow so presumably £12 million would have presented a significant issue (albeit you were not worried about it).

You can only conjecture that the former owners lent the club a bridging loan, which was replaced by the Macquarie loan as and when the club secured promotion.

I think that is the only viable explanation, if you are correct and there was indeed a loan of £39 million made last year, which was paid off by the Macquarie loan.

Unless you can think of something else...

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:27 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:08 pm
So, if you take two strands of your own thinking to its logical conclusion Paul you would have to hypothesise that the club ran into cashflow difficulties at the time of the £39 million loan and they were given a bridging loan from the former owners because they couldn't secure finance anywhere else.

At the time of the 22 accounts the cash in the bank had fallen from £80 to £50 and finally to £12 million. You seemed to think that much of the £80 million was required to secure cashflow so presumably £12 million would have presented a significant issue (albeit you were not worried about it).

You can only conjecture that the former owners lent the club a bridging loan, which was replaced by the Macquarie loan as and when the club secured promotion.

I think that is the only viable explanation, if you are correct and there was indeed a loan of £39 million made last year, which was paid off by the Macquarie loan.

Unless you can think of something else...
The problem with thinking about this being the November Loan transferred is that the assets being used as security are unlikely to hold enough value to cover that - certainly while Gawthorpe has a residential development ban on it

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:35 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:29 am
Yes, but this is debate.....

If you say to me here is a business that makes profit, has £80 million in the bank and £100 million worth of assets but no one is interested you have to say why....? You can't just say: 'no one was interested because it said so in the media'.

Why didn't the consortium that bought Newcastle for £300 million buy Burnley for £200 million? It's obvious why - you don't need me to explain. One has the potential to be a billion dollar global brand and the other doesn't....!

People are looking to buy football clubs and the club was in a very good position in the PL with a great set of numbers and a solid recent history behind them - why would it not be an attractive buy?

It's obvious why. Quite simply, it was more attractive as an investment opportunity than as a business that can be grown into something substantive.

The previous owners created an investment vehicle - it wasn't an accident.

Clubs are equal (ish) on the pitch but wildly different in terms of business propositions that is why there are wildly different sales prices.
Burnley doesn't need to be a global billion $ brand quite simply.

I've said it before but I'll say it again -
Burnley failed to maximise its earning potential whilst in the PL.
It carried on with a small club mentality (that is sometimes exhibited on here), despite being part of a billion $ brand that was broadcast around the world to billions of people.

The club failed to sell advertising spots to national/international companies, instead preferring to sell those prime spots to local companies for what was basically low amounts of money.

The club didn't keep up with the social media side of it.

The club didn't recruit very often from outside the UK/ROI either.

There was/is room to grow the brand that is Burnley, in conjunction with the PL exposure, but it needed the right mindset and people to do it.

That's why there wasn't a huge queue round the block to buy the club.
Yes it was an investment vehicle, but it had huge potential to grow beyond what it was, anyone with a business brain could see that, even I could.

Burnley has top class training facilities, courtesy of the efforts of Dyche/Garlick.
We have a stadium that's about the right size for the fanbase as it is now and it doesn't need any major work, but if the business is grown in the correct way the stadium will need expanding, or "worst" case replacing (the owners have a parcel of land just off the accy junction which is potentially a location for a new stadium)

At the time of the sale it just needed investment in the squad and to grow the off pitch side of the business, along with some other stuff.

That was no small amount of work and it needed footballing people with a proper plan in place to do it.

Now a lot of mud has been slung at ALK, but you'd be hard-pressed to say they're not footballing people with a proper business plan in place to grow the club in all aspects, with the long term plan of recouping their investment via dividends or eventual sale of the club.

The Burnley "Brand" is already bigger than it was at the end of the Garlick era and that's despite being in the championship for the last 12mths.
This is mainly due to a few things, Kompany, the social media team and the Watts being onboard.

With the current growth rate, if the club can spend the next few years in the PL, playing good football and floating around in the middle of the table with the occasional foray into Europe, I'd expect the club to double or triple in relation to the sales price.


I forgot to add, growing a club like Newcastle requires billionaire ownership, not millionaire.
Same with other clubs that are higher up the food chain.

ALK will only be able to take us so far I suspect, before they'd have to find a billionaire to buy us.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:27 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:35 pm
Burnley doesn't need to be a global billion $ brand quite simply.

I've said it before but I'll say it again -
Burnley failed to maximise its earning potential whilst in the PL.
It carried on with a small club mentality (that is sometimes exhibited on here), despite being part of a billion $ brand that was broadcast around the world to billions of people.

The club failed to sell advertising spots to national/international companies, instead preferring to sell those prime spots to local companies for what was basically low amounts of money.

The club didn't keep up with the social media side of it.

The club didn't recruit very often from outside the UK/ROI either.

There was/is room to grow the brand that is Burnley, in conjunction with the PL exposure, but it needed the right mindset and people to do it.

That's why there wasn't a huge queue round the block to buy the club.
Yes it was an investment vehicle, but it had huge potential to grow beyond what it was, anyone with a business brain could see that, even I could.

Burnley has top class training facilities, courtesy of the efforts of Dyche/Garlick.
We have a stadium that's about the right size for the fanbase as it is now and it doesn't need any major work, but if the business is grown in the correct way the stadium will need expanding, or "worst" case replacing (the owners have a parcel of land just off the accy junction which is potentially a location for a new stadium)

At the time of the sale it just needed investment in the squad and to grow the off pitch side of the business, along with some other stuff.

That was no small amount of work and it needed footballing people with a proper plan in place to do it.

Now a lot of mud has been slung at ALK, but you'd be hard-pressed to say they're not footballing people with a proper business plan in place to grow the club in all aspects, with the long term plan of recouping their investment via dividends or eventual sale of the club.

The Burnley "Brand" is already bigger than it was at the end of the Garlick era and that's despite being in the championship for the last 12mths.
This is mainly due to a few things, Kompany, the social media team and the Watts being onboard.

With the current growth rate, if the club can spend the next few years in the PL, playing good football and floating around in the middle of the table with the occasional foray into Europe, I'd expect the club to double or triple in relation to the sales price.


I forgot to add, growing a club like Newcastle requires billionaire ownership, not millionaire.
Same with other clubs that are higher up the food chain.

ALK will only be able to take us so far I suspect, before they'd have to find a billionaire to buy us.
It was said on here recently our sponsorship has gone down since ALK took over, not upwards.

They lost a lot of sponsors refusing to give rebates during Covid.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:39 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:12 am
following an initial scan I would agree that there are two different things going on here - however one of the charges is misplaced it should be on Longside Properties Limited
Both the Debenture and the Security Assignment of Certain Receivables are written in the name of Burnley Football & Athletic Club Limited (The): Title page, Parties page (page 3) and Borrower Signatories page (page 35 and page 27, respectively) all show the name Burnley Football & Athletic Club Limited (The).

It would be a disastrous error on behalf of Macquarie and their lawyers, Bird & Bird, if the Debenture should be written in the name Longside Properties. Maybe we will see further charges/changes/corrections in the coming days. Or, maybe these guys all know what they are doing - they certainly have access to more information than anyone on the outside does.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:41 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:27 pm
It was said on here recently our sponsorship has gone down since ALK took over, not upwards.

They lost a lot of sponsors refusing to give rebates during Covid.
that was me relaying what the accounts have said - it is entirely plausible that advertising revenues held or even went up last season (not shirt sponsorships obviously)

this coming season will be a big marker for the new ownership - will shirt sponsorship approach the £7.5m of LoveBet as a newly promoted club -if it does then they have done reasonably well I would say, though realistically we need it to be higher

Advertising and other sponsorships need to grow significantly - unfortunately it will be almost 2 years (April 30 2025) before we get to see the accounts to confirm the coming seasons revenues

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:14 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:08 pm
So, if you take two strands of your own thinking to its logical conclusion Paul you would have to hypothesise that the club ran into cashflow difficulties at the time of the £39 million loan and they were given a bridging loan from the former owners because they couldn't secure finance anywhere else.

At the time of the 22 accounts the cash in the bank had fallen from £80 to £50 and finally to £12 million. You seemed to think that much of the £80 million was required to secure cashflow so presumably £12 million would have presented a significant issue (albeit you were not worried about it).

You can only conjecture that the former owners lent the club a bridging loan, which was replaced by the Macquarie loan as and when the club secured promotion.

I think that is the only viable explanation, if you are correct and there was indeed a loan of £39 million made last year, which was paid off by the Macquarie loan.

Unless you can think of something else...
Hi Pete, always great to get your assistance in telling me what I'm thinking.

However, we know from the recently filed latest set of accounts (y/end 31st July 2022) that BFCHL repaid in full the balance of the MSD loan in November 2022 and took out a new loan from an unidentified UK lender for a little under £40 million. The new loan is at 7.5% interest. The MSD loan was at Libor/Sonia + 8%. The significant reduction of interest charged is sufficient to explain this change in borrowing. The fact that the new interest rate is significantly lower than the interest rate on MSD loan does not suggest that BFCHL had "cashflow difficulties" at the time. It rather suggests that BFCHL's financial situation was in a good position. And, of course, it is extremely interesting that no security has been recorded against this £40 million borrowing.

We won't know for certain if the £40 million loan has been repaid and replaced by new borrowing from Macquarie. We won't know for certain the amount of borrowing from Macquarie and we won't know the interest rate charged by Macquarie on the new loan until the financial accounts for the year ended 31st July 2023 are filed sometime around the end of April 2024.

Re your often quoted "£80 million at 31st July 2020," "£50 million at 31st July 2021" and "£12 million at 31st July 2022" - you need to remember that in July 2020 and July 2021 the club received the first instalment of the Premier League tv money and in July 2022 received the first instalment of the parachute payments. The relevant figures are also reported within Creditors: Accruals and Deferred Income, £56 million at 31st July 2020, £55 million at 31st July 2021 and £38 million at 31st July 2022.

Let's enjoy the transfer window. It appears that the owners are backing Vincent Kompany as the club prepares for the return to the Premier League.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Nori1958 » Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:25 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:14 pm
Hi Pete, always great to get your assistance in telling me what I'm thinking.

However, we know from the recently filed latest set of accounts (y/end 31st July 2022) that BFCHL repaid in full the balance of the MSD loan in November 2022 and took out a new loan from an unidentified UK lender for a little under £40 million. The new loan is at 7.5% interest. The MSD loan was at Libor/Sonia + 8%. The significant reduction of interest charged is sufficient to explain this change in borrowing. The fact that the new interest rate is significantly lower than the interest rate on MSD loan does not suggest that BFCHL had "cashflow difficulties" at the time. It rather suggests that BFCHL's financial situation was in a good position. And, of course, it is extremely interesting that no security has been recorded against this £40 million borrowing.

We won't know for certain if the £40 million loan has been repaid and replaced by new borrowing from Macquarie. We won't know for certain the amount of borrowing from Macquarie and we won't know the interest rate charged by Macquarie on the new loan until the financial accounts for the year ended 31st July 2023 are filed sometime around the end of April 2024.

Re your often quoted "£80 million at 31st July 2020," "£50 million at 31st July 2021" and "£12 million at 31st July 2022" - you need to remember that in July 2020 and July 2021 the club received the first instalment of the Premier League tv money and in July 2022 received the first instalment of the parachute payments. The relevant figures are also reported within Creditors: Accruals and Deferred Income, £56 million at 31st July 2020, £55 million at 31st July 2021 and £38 million at 31st July 2022.

Let's enjoy the transfer window. It appears that the owners are backing Vincent Kompany as the club prepares for the return to the Premier League.
Absolutely agree with the last paragraph
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Vegas Claret » Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:25 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:14 pm
Hi Pete, always great to get your assistance in telling me what I'm thinking.
my Mrs is good at that :D
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:48 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:39 pm
Both the Debenture and the Security Assignment of Certain Receivables are written in the name of Burnley Football & Athletic Club Limited (The): Title page, Parties page (page 3) and Borrower Signatories page (page 35 and page 27, respectively) all show the name Burnley Football & Athletic Club Limited (The).

It would be a disastrous error on behalf of Macquarie and their lawyers, Bird & Bird, if the Debenture should be written in the name Longside Properties. Maybe we will see further charges/changes/corrections in the coming days. Or, maybe these guys all know what they are doing - they certainly have access to more information than anyone on the outside does.
We know from the accounts at the time that Turf Moor Gym was sold in 2003/04 and that the Gawthorpe and Turd Moor properties were sold in 2005/06 all to Longside Properties - at no time have we seen those title deeds/ownership return to Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited

The sticking point may be the outstanding Charge from MSD on Longside Properties (due to lax administration at the club), but you have to wonder why the club is signing a debenture listing properties that are not owned by the entity agreeing to it. Longside Properties Limited falls under the direct ownership of Burnley FC Holdings Limited (as does BFACL) - I could understand more if the debenture sat there. The confusion on behalf of Macquarie may arise as it is BAFCL that will be carrying the payment responsibility (as it always seems to do).

I keep calling the club and its owners out on these issues, and people keep telling me I am being negative, but this is really poor from them.

I will agree with you that the transfer window looks like being an exiting one.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:28 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:48 pm
We know from the accounts at the time that Turf Moor Gym was sold in 2003/04 and that the Gawthorpe and Turd Moor properties were sold in 2005/06 all to Longside Properties - at no time have we seen those title deeds/ownership return to Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited

The sticking point may be the outstanding Charge from MSD on Longside Properties (due to lax administration at the club), but you have to wonder why the club is signing a debenture listing properties that are not owned by the entity agreeing to it. Longside Properties Limited falls under the direct ownership of Burnley FC Holdings Limited (as does BFACL) - I could understand more if the debenture sat there. The confusion on behalf of Macquarie may arise as it is BAFCL that will be carrying the payment responsibility (as it always seems to do).

I keep calling the club and its owners out on these issues, and people keep telling me I am being negative, but this is really poor from them.

I will agree with you that the transfer window looks like being an exiting one.
Hi CP, I agree the facts re ownership of the properties - so far as we are aware.

It's Macquarie and their lawyers who should be criticised for "lax administration" re the documents they have presented to BF&ACL to sign - if those properties remain owned by Longside Properties. It makes absolutely no difference to BF&ACL as the borrower, if the lender, Macquarie, asks BF&ACL to sign a document that is meaningless and of no effect.

How ever much Macquarie has lent to the club - or, as it is described as a "facility" whatever the maximum amount the club is entitled to draw down from the facility, it is Macquarie that have put themselves at risk of not having the security they (we assume) intend to obtain.

Way, way back in 1990 I had a very senior boss who turned white with concern that I'd got security from the wrong (therefore ineffective) entity - the amount involved was somewhere around BFCHL's MSD loan, from long distant memory. I was happy to inform the Senior Vice President of Finance that he hadn't read the full set of documents I had arranged. We were fully secured and were able to enforce all our rights on the deal.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:28 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:14 pm
Hi Pete, always great to get your assistance in telling me what I'm thinking.

However, we know from the recently filed latest set of accounts (y/end 31st July 2022) that BFCHL repaid in full the balance of the MSD loan in November 2022 and took out a new loan from an unidentified UK lender for a little under £40 million. The new loan is at 7.5% interest. The MSD loan was at Libor/Sonia + 8%. The significant reduction of interest charged is sufficient to explain this change in borrowing. The fact that the new interest rate is significantly lower than the interest rate on MSD loan does not suggest that BFCHL had "cashflow difficulties" at the time. It rather suggests that BFCHL's financial situation was in a good position. And, of course, it is extremely interesting that no security has been recorded against this £40 million borrowing.

We won't know for certain if the £40 million loan has been repaid and replaced by new borrowing from Macquarie. We won't know for certain the amount of borrowing from Macquarie and we won't know the interest rate charged by Macquarie on the new loan until the financial accounts for the year ended 31st July 2023 are filed sometime around the end of April 2024.

Re your often quoted "£80 million at 31st July 2020," "£50 million at 31st July 2021" and "£12 million at 31st July 2022" - you need to remember that in July 2020 and July 2021 the club received the first instalment of the Premier League tv money and in July 2022 received the first instalment of the parachute payments. The relevant figures are also reported within Creditors: Accruals and Deferred Income, £56 million at 31st July 2020, £55 million at 31st July 2021 and £38 million at 31st July 2022.

Let's enjoy the transfer window. It appears that the owners are backing Vincent Kompany as the club prepares for the return to the Premier League.
To be fair Paul, if you are struggling with what you previously thought you can go onto the Up The Clarets forum and read the comments by a certain Paul Waine: I do - always interesting and thoughtful!

You asked the question:

"Maybe the £39 million has been repaid and replaced by Macquarie loan in June 2023. However, we've got to ask, if that is the case, why?"

And you say:

The significant reduction of interest charged is sufficient to explain this change in borrowing.

Of course, it isn't because in your previous thinking you posited that this could have been a loan from Mike Garlick and the £39 million he had in GoClarets, which would explain the lower interest rates but not why the club needed this loan and then another one.

The only reason I can come up with is cashflow....! I feel I am now in the invidious position of being more enthusiastic about answering the questions you pose than your are...! Awkward?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:32 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:39 pm
Bournemouth went for £120 million, that's overpriced

Villa went for £76 million in 2016, undervalued I'd say, but they ended up drowning in losses before being sold again in 2018 and the current owners have spent a lot of money.

Recent valuations show how wildly different they can be to what fans think they should be

Screenshot_20230615-233849.png
I respect your opinion but the central premise that an investor would be put off by a management team with an outdated mindset is completely wrong.

In fact the opposite is true, a business with a poor management team but lots of cash is exactly what investors want because it's an easy fix and you have the money to do it.

The reality is the opposite is true Mike Garlick grew the organic matchday and commercial business and was renowned for running a tight ship and that is why it was a less attractive proposition.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:33 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:28 pm
To be fair Paul, if you are struggling with what you previously thought you can go onto the Up The Clarets forum and read the comments by a certain Paul Waine: I do - always interesting and thoughtful!

You asked the question:

"Maybe the £39 million has been repaid and replaced by Macquarie loan in June 2023. However, we've got to ask, if that is the case, why?"

And you say:

The significant reduction of interest charged is sufficient to explain this change in borrowing.

Of course, it isn't because in your previous thinking you posited that this could have been a loan from Mike Garlick and the £39 million he had in GoClarets, which would explain the lower interest rates but not why the club needed this loan and then another one.

The only reason I can come up with is cashflow....! I feel I am now in the invidious position of being more enthusiastic about answering the questions you pose than your are...! Awkward?
I fear you speak in riddles, Pete. Not to worry, I know what I posted and the context of my posts.

I look forward to reading your answers to the questions you believe I posed.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:34 pm

Duplicate

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:35 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:48 pm
We know from the accounts at the time that Turf Moor Gym was sold in 2003/04 and that the Gawthorpe and Turd Moor properties were sold in 2005/06 all to Longside Properties - at no time have we seen those title deeds/ownership return to Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited

The sticking point may be the outstanding Charge from MSD on Longside Properties (due to lax administration at the club), but you have to wonder why the club is signing a debenture listing properties that are not owned by the entity agreeing to it. Longside Properties Limited falls under the direct ownership of Burnley FC Holdings Limited (as does BFACL) - I could understand more if the debenture sat there. The confusion on behalf of Macquarie may arise as it is BAFCL that will be carrying the payment responsibility (as it always seems to do).

I keep calling the club and its owners out on these issues, and people keep telling me I am being negative, but this is really poor from them.

I will agree with you that the transfer window looks like being an exiting one.
CP love your comments but you have dropped a couple of howlers on here....
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:41 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:32 pm
I respect your opinion but the central premise that an investor would be put off by a management team with an outdated mindset is completely wrong.

In fact the opposite is true, a business with a poor management team but lots of cash is exactly what investors want because it's an easy fix and you have the money to do it.

The reality is the opposite is true Mike Garlick grew the organic matchday and commercial business and was renowned for running a tight ship and that is why it was a less attractive proposition.
We were an attractive proposition because we had zero debts, had been in the PL for a number of years, had top class training facilities, a ground that met nearly all PL requirements and we didn't need a new one just yet and we had a well respected manager etc.
We weren't a basket case, we just needed owners with a different mind/skill set to take us up a few notches and we had plenty of room.for growth.

We now have said owners and begun the climb to be more than we were.
Garlick had done a wonderful job building upon what Kilby etc had done, but we'd plateaued under him and we needed new ideas/fresh blood.

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New loan by club

Post by claretsforever » Fri Jun 16, 2023 6:44 pm

I see the club took a new loan out against the properties and future premier league money here link https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 4exyQ&s=08

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Re: New loan by club

Post by equinox » Fri Jun 16, 2023 6:46 pm

Standard procedure these days.

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Re: New loan by club

Post by dibraidio » Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:26 pm

Perhaps we'll see some movement in the transfer market now. Not a surprise to see them drawing on future revenue to fund the spending for the season.

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Re: New loan by club

Post by tarkys_ears » Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:38 pm

Bit of money for the kitty it seems!

Crack on!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Sat Jun 17, 2023 1:09 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:41 pm
We were an attractive proposition because we had zero debts, had been in the PL for a number of years, had top class training facilities, a ground that met nearly all PL requirements and we didn't need a new one just yet and we had a well respected manager etc.
We weren't a basket case, we just needed owners with a different mind/skill set to take us up a few notches and we had plenty of room.for growth.

We now have said owners and begun the climb to be more than we were.
Garlick had done a wonderful job building upon what Kilby etc had done, but we'd plateaued under him and we needed new ideas/fresh blood.
God you make some good point about the general situation at the club but the central question was: why were there no buyers for the club?

1. Garlick did not "plateau" quite the opposite he peaked - coming 7th in the PL and getting into Europe.
2. Buyers are not put off by poor management with the wrong "mind set" quite the opposite they are attracted to it because it is an easy solve, particularly, where there is cash in the bank

Put the two opposites of what you said together and you have the reason.

Buyers were put off because the club peaked in terms of performance on the pitch but still generated only £20 million in non-broadcast revenue. And the management was good so investors/buyers could not add value and grow the business...

And the proof of the hypothesis is that there wasn't much interest....! Buyers would have been falling over themselves to buy a club with cash in the bank and a weak management team.

On the other hand, ALK were interested because the value they saw in the club was not growing the business (albeit they may want to do that as well) but the cash in the bank accounts, which reduced their financial contribution (in a £200 million valued asset) to virtually nothing....!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Jun 17, 2023 1:23 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2023 1:09 pm
God you make some good point about the general situation at the club but the central question was: why were there no buyers for the club?

1. Garlick did not "plateau" quite the opposite he peaked - coming 7th in the PL and getting into Europe.
2. Buyers are not put off by poor management with the wrong "mind set" quite the opposite they are attracted to it because it is an easy solve, particularly, where there is cash in the bank

Put the two opposites of what you said together and you have the reason.

Buyers were put off because the club peaked in terms of performance on the pitch but still generated only £20 million in non-broadcast revenue. And the management was good so investors/buyers could not add value and grow the business...

And the proof of the hypothesis is that there wasn't much interest....! Buyers would have been falling over themselves to buy a club with cash in the bank and a weak management team.

On the other hand, ALK were interested because the value they saw in the club was not growing the business (albeit they may want to do that as well) but the cash in the bank accounts, which reduced their financial contribution (in a £200 million valued asset) to virtually nothing....!
ALK will only make large amounts of money by growing the business/club.
If they don't then they'll only make a certain amount because the value of the club will increase just by being in the PL for an extended period of time

Of course the club plateaued under Garlick, he'd reached the limit of his ownership, that's it and then the club came back down to the lower part of the PL
The club hasn't peaked with that 7th placed finish.

Why didn't we have a queue of potential buyers?
We aren't a fashionable club, it required work/vision to change the image and then to grow the brand to take it to the next level which is regular mid table finishes with semi regular efforts to get into Europe.


ALK saw the potential for growth, but you seem to think they didn't and weren't looking to grow the club overall, which is a bizarre thing to think
They're business men, with experience the financial sector which is all about growing a product/portfolio to make money, not to sit on it and hope for the best.

If it goes to plan, they'll make a lot more money than Garlick did.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Nori1958 » Sat Jun 17, 2023 3:45 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2023 1:09 pm
God you make some good point about the general situation at the club but the central question was: why were there no buyers for the club?

1. Garlick did not "plateau" quite the opposite he peaked - coming 7th in the PL and getting into Europe.
2. Buyers are not put off by poor management with the wrong "mind set" quite the opposite they are attracted to it because it is an easy solve, particularly, where there is cash in the bank

Put the two opposites of what you said together and you have the reason.

Buyers were put off because the club peaked in terms of performance on the pitch but still generated only £20 million in non-broadcast revenue. And the management was good so investors/buyers could not add value and grow the business...

And the proof of the hypothesis is that there wasn't much interest....! Buyers would have been falling over themselves to buy a club with cash in the bank and a weak management team.

On the other hand, ALK were interested because the value they saw in the club was not growing the business (albeit they may want to do that as well) but the cash in the bank accounts, which reduced their financial contribution (in a £200 million valued asset) to virtually nothing....!
So, simple question, was anyone else interested in buying the club other than ALK?......

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sat Jun 17, 2023 4:28 pm

Nori1958 wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2023 3:45 pm
So, simple question, was anyone else interested in buying the club other than ALK?......
I would have been if I knew I could borrow all the money and make the club pay it back.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Sat Jun 17, 2023 5:02 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2023 4:28 pm
I would have been if I knew I could borrow all the money and make the club pay it back.
Indeed, the intelligent question is why there was no one interested not whether there was anyone interested.

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