The Bud Fight, sorry Presidential Debate

[Greenmile]

I suppose I should clarify for you then. I have no problem with people being judged on what they say and do. I was referring to a person being judged on fictitious views ascribed to them by others. It's often someone being called a racist or implied to be a racist, as is the fashion. I don't think I have done that.

I don’t think anyone’s done that, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

[Bordeauxclaret]

I dislike Trump as much as you can dislike anyone. But Biden just comes across as boring. I wouldn't be surprised to see Trump win but hope against hope he doesn't. The young people of the world deserve better but neither are inspirational.

Yep it’s a poor do in a country of that size that these are the two options. As it was in the UK 12 months ago.

You’d think they’d all take a step back and think is this really the best we can do but I doubt they will.

The Polls are encouraging and hopefully the big orange lunatic will be booted out but I’m not getting carried away.
I think it’s going to get messy and nothing will surprise me.

[Damo]

It wasn’t me that brought Islam into the conversation. I was just answering android’s question - he doesn’t like it when he asks me a question and doesn’t get an answer, so I try to oblige.

Ah, I've just read back.
I'd missed that conversation sorry. It's difficult to keep up on here sometimes.
I can see why you implied that I was a racist now.
Thanks for clearing that up pal

[Greenmile]

Ah, I've just read back.
I'd missed that conversation sorry. It's difficult to keep up on here sometimes.
I can see why you implied that I was a racist now.
Thanks for clearing that up pal

Here’s some more “clearing up” for you.

I never implied you were a racist; I implied you’re a hypocrite.

[Damo]

Here’s some more “clearing up” for you.

I never implied you were a racist; I implied you’re a hypocrite.

You said I wouldn't have defended Pence if he was a Muslim (even though I didn't defend him, despite him being a christian) further up the thread.
That implies I'm a racist, and a hypocrite.

Anyway, I'm glad you have retreated.
An apology, or an admittance that you were wrong on both counts would have been better

[Greenmile]

You said I wouldn't have defended Pence if he was a Muslim (even though I didn't defend him, despite him being a christian) further up the thread.
That implies I'm a racist, and a hypocrite.

Anyway, I'm glad you have retreated.
An apology, or an admittance that you were wrong on both counts would have been better

I stand by what I said. You defended Pence in comparison to Biden. You wouldn’t have done so if he was an extremist Muslim, but you did despite him being an extremist Christian. That doesn’t make you a racist, but it does make you a hypocrite.

You might be waiting a while for that apology.

[Vegas Claret]

I dislike Trump as much as you can dislike anyone. But Biden just comes across as boring. I wouldn't be surprised to see Trump win but hope against hope he doesn't. The young people of the world deserve better but neither are inspirational.

I think a lot of people are looking at the team around Biden, the up and coming Democrats - they are the ones that give a little bit of hope, all the Republicans have is their showman, after him it's just a line up of crooks

[Damo]

I stand by what I said. You defended Pence in comparison to Biden. You wouldn’t have done so if he was an extremist Muslim, but you did despite him being an extremist Christian. That doesn’t make you a racist, but it does make you a hypocrite.

You might be waiting a while for that apology.

No, I said I think most people would prefer Pence over Biden as POTUS. (Thats just my opinion btw)
I never once defended his extremist Christian views, infact, I didn't even know about them until you enlightened me, and once you did inform me, I was happy to go along with your view that Pence is creepy.
You see, his religious views never even entered my head and I can assure you, they wouldn't have done if he was a Muslim or of any other religious persuasion.
You attributed those views to me for whatever reason, and I assumed it was because you were upset or whatever, but we have already cleared that up (thanks again for that)
But when you insinuated that I would judge him, or choose to defend him based on his beliefs, you are clearly implying that I'm racist (unless of course, you believe like some, that judging people based on their religion isn't racist) and i can't even give you the benefit of the doubt on this one (hence this long, drawn out reply) that you are failing to understand what you are saying, as you have previously stated, several times that you are an intelligent person, with a very good grasp of the written word. So I just have to assume you are either dishonest, or that you just don't have the guts to state that you are of the opinion that I'm a racist.

I don't expect you to tell me which of one of those stances you are choosing to take, just like I didn’t expect an apology or an admittance you were wrong.
It would have just been nice thats all

[Taffy on the wing]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[PeterWilton]

If the election is meant to be a secret ballot until the day of the election why do they start declaring how many Republicans and Democrats have already voted, either by mail or at the polling booth?

Just because you're a Democrat or a Republican doesn't mean you voted for that party's candidate.

That said, is that even true? I've not read anywhere about specific numbers of Democrats or republicans voting already.

Edit: I see the story now https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/1 ... tes-428893

[PeterWilton]

So now that being anti-fascists makes you a terrorist now, and that smashing windows is terrorism just like blowing kids up at a concert is, I wonder if Ringo also thinks that "posture" can be an act of terrorism now, as long as it comes from someone who is anti-fascist.

Because "posture" is why these anti-fascists were arrested
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/statu ... 82689?s=20

[Zlatan]

So glad someone mentioned terrorists... I was beginning to think that Covid had luckily killed them all because we never hear about them on the news anymore

[Devils_Advocate]

So glad someone mentioned terrorists... I was beginning to think that Covid had luckily killed them all because we never hear about them on the news anymore

Their too busy campaigning for Trump

[HahaYeah]

I assume, you'll be changing your user name to "Haha Yeah, i'm a total loser" Right after the Election?

Cancel the post lefty boy

[Taffy on the wing]

You're a fool!

[PeterWilton]

Their too busy campaigning for Trump

When they're on duty or off duty?

[Spijed]

Just because you're a Democrat or a Republican doesn't mean you voted for that party's candidate.

That said, is that even true? I've not read anywhere about specific numbers of Democrats or republicans voting already.

Edit: I see the story now https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/1 ... tes-428893

If You request a mail-in ballot how would they know how many Democrats v Republicans have asked for them if it's meant to be secret?

[daveisaclaret]

If You request a mail-in ballot how would they know how many Democrats v Republicans have asked for them if it's meant to be secret?

American voters have to register as Democrats or Republicans in most states in order to vote in the Primaries.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

American voters have to register as Democrats or Republicans in most states in order to vote in the Primaries.

Are they allowed to switch sides when they actually vote?

[daveisaclaret]

Are they allowed to switch sides when they actually vote?

Yes, it's a democracy.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yes, it's a democracy.

So why do they have to say who they support when registering to vote?

I've never joined a political party in the UK because I've never voted for just one side.

[daveisaclaret]

So why do they have to say who they support when registering to vote?

I've never joined a political party in the UK because I've never voted for just one side.

In order to vote in the primaries, as indicated in the second half of my post.

You can vote for a different political party than one you're registered to in the UK too, because it's a secret ballot.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

In order to vote in the primaries, as indicated in the second half of my post.

You can vote for a different political party than one you're registered to in the UK too, because it's a secret ballot.

I did see that part about the Primaries, it just doesn't explain why people have to declare in advance who they support before they're allowed to register to vote.

Just bizarre, but it's the US so I shouldn't be that surprised

[Spiral]

They are able to register as non-affiliated or independent also, but I sort of agree that it is very odd. I can only imagine that it's done to streamline the primary process, utilising the same apparatus as the general election.

[daveisaclaret]

I did see that part about the Primaries, it just doesn't explain why people have to declare in advance who they support before they're allowed to register to vote.

Just bizarre, but it's the US so I shouldn't be that surprised

They don't have to, unless they want to vote in the primaries.

[Spiral]

I think the point GIADJ is making and one I agree with is that according to our sensibilities they have no right to be even asking the question.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

They don't have to, unless they want to vote in the primaries.

Just been reading, it's only those that host closed Primaries, which is about 13 states.

Still very odd.

[daveisaclaret]

I think the point GIADJ is making and one I agree with is that according to our sensibilities they have no right to be even asking the question.

The states run primary elections. The only two ways to do that are to ask voters which one they want to vote in, or let them choose on the day. In fairness neither is a very good option.

They could have separate registrations for primaries and for general elections which would stop the crossover of available information, but it would also likely mean that voter registration cost states twice as much. I think it's fair to say voter registration is enough of a political disaster in that country already without adding extra expense.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think the point GIADJ is making and one I agree with is that according to our sensibilities they have no right to be even asking the question.

Yes, I'm just not phrasing it very well, I'm flicking back and forth between this and reading about registering to vote in the US.

[daveisaclaret]

Just been reading, it's only those that host closed Primaries, which is about 13 states.

Still very odd.

I think there are 15 more that hold semi-closed, most of which also ask people to register but let them change registration on primary day.

[PeterWilton]

If You request a mail-in ballot how would they know how many Democrats v Republicans have asked for them if it's meant to be secret?

Because when registering to vote you can also state which party you are affiliated to or none at all.

[PeterWilton]

So why do they have to say who they support when registering to vote?

I've never joined a political party in the UK because I've never voted for just one side.

They don't have to say who they support.

And you don't have to vote for the party you're a member of.

[PeterWilton]

I think the point GIADJ is making and one I agree with is that according to our sensibilities they have no right to be even asking the question.

They're not asking the question, they're giving you the option. You're allowed to leave the box blank.

What a pointless objection.

[RingoMcCartney]

Justin Bowen, 25, was arrested at the violent Portland #antifa riot where statues were toppled & businesses smashed up. He's charged w/2 counts of assault & one count of unlawful use of pepper spray. He was using riot gear during the assault #PortlandRiots

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/st ... 2104524801

[GodIsADeeJay81]

They don't have to say who they support.

And you don't have to vote for the party you're a member of.

We've already established that to be allowed to register to vote in some primaries a confirmation of which party you may well be voting for is required.

[Spiral]

They're not asking the question, they're giving you the option. You're allowed to leave the box blank.

What a pointless objection.

It's not a pointless objection. Whether you select a party, select non-affiliated or leave the space blank it conveys a piece of information about you which seems odd to me sat here in Britain where our 'primaries' are completely independent of the electoral commission and solely the business of independent organisations, i.e. our parties. Obviously, like I stressed above, it can only be for the purpose of streamlining the process, and it's obviously a product of the primary system, but it would also be viable, if not politically or economically preferable, to have an opt-in registration system for primaries which is completely separate from the electoral roll folks sign up to in order to vote in the final elections. Our no-questions-asked system is far more private for the very reason that it doesn't ever ask the question.

[RingoMcCartney]

So you’ve finally adopted the position everyone arguing against you was taking and claimed it as your own Well done, that’s a new one even for you.

If you genuinely believe that isn't what I was saying all along, you really arent as intelligent you , or I for that matter , think you are.

I said Jo Bidens claim that "Antifa is an idea not an organisation " is, easily provable, garbage. It's not an "idea" that's rioting, looting , toppling statues, firing shots into businesses, pulling black , Trump supporting women to the ground , harassing political opponents, organising boycotts of businesses etc etc...

Last week others had introduced the
strawman of "an organisation cannot be held responsible for the actions of an individual" ( a couple of
posters used the Burnley fan attacking an away fan doesn't reflect on BurnleyFootballClub. To which I said if he was in the Suicide Squad, hes part of an organisation/ mob/ firm , call it what you want, but that's an "idea" its being part of an organised football hooligan gang.)
Nonetheless, it was always a sidelining strawman arguement.

Arranging violent mass gatherings night after night after night for months on end, isn't an "idea" as Biden claims. it's a Marxist/anarchist organisation with a cell structure.

A blind man on a galloping horse can see it.

[Vegas Claret]

I'm pro Biden because I despise Trump, but I think it was ridiculous for Biden (or anyone) to call Antifa a belief and not some sort of organization - they are clearly organized in what they do, I've no idea who their leadership are (they've done well to keep that quiet). Granted they aren't an organization of a level of a political party or even the KKK, but imho, they are organized enough to warrant being called one.

Edit: I'm going to add though, we've seen loads of videos of right wing folks causing problems in among the antifa lot, we've even seen under-cover police smashing things up too - it's 100% not all "Antifa" and it's most certainly not the BLM movement - if we are going down that route then every Trump fan and Republican is a member of the KKK (just nonsense)

[RingoMcCartney]

Duplicate

[RingoMcCartney]

You have yet to provide any details of the Antifa organisation. I asked you ages ago to tell me who the organisations leadership are but you've provided nothing. All you do is provide videos of people committing violence and then you claim they are a part of a group that you can't demonstrate exists.

Show me who is the leader of Antifa. Show me their leadership structure. Give us names and their positions within that structure. Who founded them? Where are they headquartered?

But you won't provide any of that, because you can't, because Anti-fascism isnt an organisation.

You sound more and more like that, forever thrashing around, hapless clown, imploding , Trump obsessed, bunker dwelling , Turtle!

An organisation does not need to have a single identifiable leader to be an organisation. An anarchist group, by it's very nature, would have zero credibility, were it to have a leader!

It has a cell structure, a network. Stop asking for "names and positions" of a single leader that you know cannot exist in an anarchist organisation! Nor does it need a headquarters. Did ISIS, the Taliban or the Proviisional IRA have headquarters!? No!

From the UK Antifa "idea" website-


AFN groupsBerkshire,
Anti-FascistsBrighton ,
Anti-FascistsBristol ,
Anti-FascistsDywizjon ,
161Essex Anti-Fascists
Hunt Saboteurs Association
Leeds Anti-Fascist Network
London Anti-Fascists
Merseyside AFN
Midlands Anti-Fascists
North East Anti-Fascists
Oxford Anti-Fascists
Portsmouth Anti-Fascists
Preston Antifascist Network
Sheffield Anti-Fascist Network
Southampton AntifaWelsh
AntifaWessex Solidarity
Wigan Antifascists

"Start a group
If there isn’t an active and open local group, there’s still lots you can do to be effective with just a small number of people. See resources for anti-fascist action for tips on community organising, planning actions and more. If you’re up for starting a group, we can use our resources and experience to support you. Maybe we can help you put on a public meeting in your area to get a group going. See our guide on how to start an anti-fascist group for more.

Solidarity
Support people organising to defeat upcoming far right mobilisations in whatever way you can. If you can afford to, donate us the cost of a pint using the button in the sidebar, or give some cash to your local anti-fascist group."



"MOBILISING MASS DIRECT ACTION"

Sounds a lot like an organisation to me!

https://antifascistnetwork.org/diary/

[RingoMcCartney]

“This solidified my Trump vote.”

Black owner of the Heroes American cafe speaks out after business was shot at during antifa riot. A few days prior, the cafe was placed on an antifa list of businesses to target. #PortlandRiots #antifa

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/st ... 3984141316



But its "just an idea, not an organisation", surely!?.....

[Spiral]

I'm pro Biden because I despise Trump, but I think it was ridiculous for Biden (or anyone) to call Antifa a belief and not some sort of organization - they are clearly organized in what they do, I've no idea who their leadership are (they've done well to keep that quiet). Granted they aren't an organization of a level of a political party or even the KKK, but imho, they are organized enough to warrant being called one.

Edit: I'm going to add though, we've seen loads of videos of right wing folks causing problems in among the antifa lot, we've even seen under-cover police smashing things up too - it's 100% not all "Antifa" and it's most certainly not the BLM movement - if we are going down that route then every Trump fan and Republican is a member of the KKK (just nonsense)

Anarchistic groups are leaderless by design, operate without structure by design, and lack official organisation by design, because leadership, structure and organisation all stem from and are upheld by hierarchal compulsion. (I'm the leader! No you're not, I am!...okay, now people need to organise a way to determine who's leader...you get what I mean?) In order for an organised structure to exist, there needs to be people who recognise its legitimacy and who work to maintain its existence, something which is fundamentally at odds with anarchistic theory and philosophy. Quite fundamentally anarchism is cooperative in practice and rejects the authority of any one person or group of people otherwise needed to uphold an organisational structure or compel others to adhere to a organised structure. It's a bit of a fantasy, to my mind; a little bit too abstract to be practical, and leaderless movements generally fail miserably, though they can often put a decent amount of pressure on people with the power to make actual changes to law if they're successful in fostering enough public sentiment for change, whatever that may be. What folks identify as antifa most closely resembles anarchism in practice - leaderless, structureless, but with a common motivation similar in principle (if not in behaviour, aim or worldview) to the way in which Christian anarchism is a philosophical system which rejects the legitimacy of organised bodies and institutions, including both the church and the state itself, but in which its adherents cooperate without compulsion are held together by a common motivating belief in Christ. This is what is meant when people say "antifa is not an organisation".

[Spiral]

Organising is not the same as an organisation. If me and my mates organise a pi$$up on a weekend, we aren't an organisation.

Though I've no ****ing clue why I'm even engaging with Ringo. I'm leaving it at that.

[RingoMcCartney]

Overnight on 4–5 Oct., BLM-antifa rioters in Portland marched around downtown in more criminal protests that began in late May. They vandalized the new $324m courthouse & other buildings. 6 were arrested. #PortlandRiots #antifa https://portlandoregon.gov/police/news/ ... ?id=261256

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/st ... 6767444997


Completely impromptu!! Individuals behaving completely spontaneously. Night after night, after night. For months.....

It's just an "idea" isnt it Joe.

Yeah right......

[KateR]

The Antifa movement in the United States has been less violent than its European counterpart. Yet, there are examples of American anti-fascists escalating their violence beyond shoving and fistfights. Last July, Willem Van Spronsen attacked an Immigration and Customs Enforcement detention center in Tacoma, Washington, with a rifle and incendiary devices. Before he could cause much damage, the 68-year-old man was shot and killed by the police. After his death, a manifesto was posted in Van Spronsen’s name on It’s Going Down and other anarchist websites. In his manifesto, Van Spronsen identified himself as an Antifa supporter (“I am antifa”), railed against the Trump administration’s policy of detaining illegal immigrants (“fascist hooligans preying on vulnerable people in our streets”), and called for violent resistance against the government (“I strongly encourage comrades and incoming comrades to arm themselves. We are now responsible for defending people from the predatory state”).

These examples illustrate how Antifa’s violence could escalate to terrorism or guerrilla warfare if it is channeled into a more organized, sustained, and bloody campaign. If anti-fascists started bombing buildings with explosives or gunning down Immigration and Customs Enforcement employees and white supremacists in the streets, it would make sense to consider such incidents terrorism. But that’s not what we are seeing — at least so far. Though sucker-punching someone in the face is certainly violent, it’s not terrorism.

Antifa is an anti-fascist action and left-wing political movement in the United States comprising an array of autonomous groups that aim to achieve their objectives through the use of both nonviolent and violent direct action rather than through policy reform. A highly decentralized movement, antifa political activists are anti-racists who engage in protest tactics, seeking to combat fascists and racists such as neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other far-right extremists. This may involve digital activism, harassment, physical violence] and property damage against those whom they identify as belonging to the far-right. Much antifa activism is nonviolent, involving poster and flyer campaigns, delivering speeches, marching in protest, and community organizing on behalf of anti-racist and anti-white nationalist causes.

Individuals involved in the movement tend to hold anti-authoritarian, anti-capitalist, anti-fascist and anti-state views, subscribing to a range of left-wing ideologies such as anarchism, communism, Marxism, social democracy and socialism. Both the name antifa and the logo with two flags representing anarchism and communism are derived from the German Antifa movement. Antifa actions have received both criticism and praise.

It is quite obvious why those on the left would try to distort what Antifa really is and support Biden's claim to it being just an idea, I stated previously about people who support the behavior they exhibit and cause destruction and harm to people plus pulling statues down, more so to use of weapons/firearms. I would also state very clearly that white supremacists and org's like KKK are ridiculously bad and I would never support or provide any form of justification for them, I would support peaceful protesting against them, in that which some parts of Antifa engage. Also I don't believe Antifa is a terrorist org but it's a lot more than an idea and it appears to be getting much more militant and could easily slide into that category, but hopefully not.

[Spiral]

Armed militia groups plotting violent acts of terrorism sure would be worrying, right KateR? Just as well that hasn't happened or anything.

[PeterWilton]

You sound more and more like that, forever thrashing around, hapless clown, imploding , Trump obsessed, bunker dwelling , Turtle!

An organisation does not need to have a single identifiable leader to be an organisation. An anarchist group, by it's very nature, would have zero credibility, were it to have a leader!

It has a cell structure, a network. Stop asking for "names and positions" of a single leader that you know cannot exist in an anarchist organisation! Nor does it need a headquarters. Did ISIS, the Taliban or the Proviisional IRA have headquarters!? No!

From the UK Antifa "idea" website-


AFN groupsBerkshire,
Anti-FascistsBrighton ,
Anti-FascistsBristol ,
Anti-FascistsDywizjon ,
161Essex Anti-Fascists
Hunt Saboteurs Association
Leeds Anti-Fascist Network
London Anti-Fascists
Merseyside AFN
Midlands Anti-Fascists
North East Anti-Fascists
Oxford Anti-Fascists
Portsmouth Anti-Fascists
Preston Antifascist Network
Sheffield Anti-Fascist Network
Southampton AntifaWelsh
AntifaWessex Solidarity
Wigan Antifascists

"Start a group
If there isn’t an active and open local group, there’s still lots you can do to be effective with just a small number of people. See resources for anti-fascist action for tips on community organising, planning actions and more. If you’re up for starting a group, we can use our resources and experience to support you. Maybe we can help you put on a public meeting in your area to get a group going. See our guide on how to start an anti-fascist group for more.

Solidarity
Support people organising to defeat upcoming far right mobilisations in whatever way you can. If you can afford to, donate us the cost of a pint using the button in the sidebar, or give some cash to your local anti-fascist group."



"MOBILISING MASS DIRECT ACTION"

Sounds a lot like an organisation to me!

https://antifascistnetwork.org/diary/

All you've done there is show that there a lot of groups who support the idea of Anti-fascism. I could equally show you a lot of groups who support the ideology of anti-abortion. That doesn't mean anti-abortion is an organisation.

A lot of organisations are pro-democracy, but no one with more than 2 braincells would blame "pro-democracy" if a pro democracy orgsanisation did something violent.


Anyway, am I a terrorist Ringo? I'm antifa. I'm not a member of any group but I am strong opposed to fascism and therefore I'm antifa. So am I a terrorist?

[PeterWilton]

I'm pro Biden because I despise Trump, but I think it was ridiculous for Biden (or anyone) to call Antifa a belief and not some sort of organization -...

You're falling for their propaganda."Antifa" is literally just an abbreviation of "anti-fascist". Why the hell do you think it is anything else? It's literally just anyone who is against fascism. No group/organisation/movement necessary.

If you are opposed to fascism then you are antifa. Stop this **** and start asking why Ringo isn't against fascism

[Vegas Claret]

You're falling for their propaganda."Antifa" is literally just an abbreviation of "anti-fascist". Why the hell do you think it is anything else? It's literally just anyone who is against fascism. No group/organisation/movement necessary.

If you are opposed to fascism then you are antifa. Stop this **** and start asking why Ringo isn't against fascism

hmm

Organization: an organized body of people with a particular purpose

So, unless you are telling me that a bunch of people just happen to be in the same city, all wanting to do the same thing without any form of pre contact then by definition they are an organization. You are so stuck behind your agenda that common sense has left your building. You don't need to tell me who Antifa are, what they stand for and what they do - I'm very very well aware. The whole essence of Antifa I agree is an ideology and a belief in it's origination but the galvanization of that movement has been organized - thus an organization.

[Vegas Claret]

Organising is not the same as an organisation. If me and my mates organise a pi$$up on a weekend, we aren't an organisation.

Though I've no ****ing clue why I'm even engaging with Ringo. I'm leaving it at that.

look up the definition of the word

I read your reply btw, some good points and mostly fair and agreeable - but like I said in my reply to PW they clearly have a level of organization - thus be definition.......