The Bud Fight, sorry Presidential Debate

[PeterWilton]

really really good effort there with that defection, you could probably get a job on Trumps team advising him the way you're going, it was fact checked and proven to be a lie from Biden, anything you have to say in this matter just revolves around in your head. Try reading all the other facts I gave you as well regarding poverty reduction, crime reduction, these are not my ramblings these are from fact checkers.

Ohhh yes, sorry, silly me of course you don't read my posts do you, as you evidenced early, your egregious behavior and failure to comprehend what a debate is and that people might have different opinions, means I wont be responding to you except when I see you make the same mistakes and outright lies in any thread. (although I'm 90% certain you wont read that bit, but hey ho, no problem).

Are you ill or something?

I'll show you it again.



I'll go slow. Manufacturing was in recession BEFORE covid.

Why are you in denial of this proven and demonstrated fact? What the fk is wrong with you?

[PeterWilton]

Honestly, why is it when faced with literal, technical facts proving that they are clearly wrong, some people find it so fking hard to accept that they have been corrected? I'd be fking delighted if someone corrected me over something. I hate being wrong. But something as clearly wrong as claim Biden lied about manufacturing being in recession before Covid, when he was fking correct, shouldn't be difficult for anyone with more than half a brain to accept.

Stop hating being corrected and start hating being wrong.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Someone with multiple usernames and a 24 hour a day boner for trump asking someone else if they are ill

Irony

[Damo]

Was indeed average so must go down as a defeat for Trump and his acolytes who were painting this as a debate where he’d wipe the floor with Biden.

That didn’t happen, and while Biden hardly hit it out of the park, Trump cane across as belligerent and annoying rather than in charge.

There’s always one main take away from these types of things and I think it will be Trump’s unwillingness to denounce white supremacists, which was astonishing.

Get used to that OP from Trump supporters over the next few days. “Both as bad as each other!” They’re really, really not.

I think most neutrals thought it was terrible from both sides.
Must be awful fro Americans to have a choice between those two.
I've seen some of the maga lot claiming victory for trump on twitter though, and of course the other cheek of the @rse are claiming victory for Biden on twitter, and on here.
I'm going with the rational folk though in saying they both lost last night

[Damo]

Are you ill or something?

I'll show you it again.



I'll go slow. Manufacturing was in recession BEFORE covid.

Why are you in denial of this proven and demonstrated fact? What the fk is wrong with you?

I struggling to gauge who is winning the race for the white House, but when I read some of the shyte you post, I can only assume you are trying to get the thread locked again, and that must mean its not going the way you want it to.
Might stuck a couple of quid on trump

[TVC15]

Honestly, why is it when faced with literal, technical facts proving that they are clearly wrong, some people find it so fking hard to accept that they have been corrected? I'd be fking delighted if someone corrected me over something. I hate being wrong. But something as clearly wrong as claim Biden lied about manufacturing being in recession before Covid, when he was fking correct, shouldn't be difficult for anyone with more than half a brain to accept.

Stop hating being corrected and start hating being wrong.

You’d be interesting in a TV debate - impressive how you seem to remain so calm and articulate in getting your points across !!

[PeterWilton]

You’d be interesting in a TV debate - impressive how you seem to remain so calm and articulate in getting your points across !!

Lol. I take the joke. The use of "fking" was a bit of an outburst.

[KateR]

good heavens, I show you things that you completely discount and try to show me something that you expect I have to agree with, use your god given brain please, try reading where people have done a fact check and said Biden lied, can you understand this little sentence, not that KateR said he lied and he was right.

Why are you in total denial of this, I proved he lied accept it and move on, go write to BBC and the Bureau, tell them they are wrong and explain to them why they are wrong, go to the Allenburg public policy center and tell them as well.

While you're at it and we are talking about brains, can you explain that from two different reliable sources, not Kate,that said manufacturing jobs went up under Trump and were continuing to rise, Jan 2020, 487,000 extra manufacturing jobs, is this a lie or not? If not, please advise me why/how manufacturing went down, is it productivity, are all the additional people working doing nothing along with all those who were in work?

Bellow is from the Federal Reserve in regard to IP (Manufacturing) your chart is in regard to seasonally adjusted which is explained further down:

Release Date: March 27, 2019
The Federal Reserve has revised its index of industrial production (IP) and the related measures of capacity and capacity utilization.[1] On net, the revisions to the growth rates for total IP for recent years were small and positive, with the estimates for 2016 and 2017 a bit higher and the estimates for 2015 and 2018 slightly lower.[2] Total IP is still reported to have increased from the end of the recession in mid-2009 through late 2014 before declining in 2015 and rebounding in mid-2016. Subsequently, the index advanced around 7 1/2 percent over 2017 and 2018.

Revised Seasonal Factors
Seasonal factors for production-worker hours—which adjust for timing, holiday, and monthly seasonal patterns—were updated with data through January 2019. The updated factors for the physical product series, which include adjustments for holiday and workday patterns, used data through December 2018 where available.

[Vegas Claret]

I think most neutrals thought it was terrible from both sides.
Must be awful fro Americans to have a choice between those two.
I've seen some of the maga lot claiming victory for trump on twitter though, and of course the other cheek of the @rse are claiming victory for Biden on twitter, and on here.
I'm going with the rational folk though in saying they both lost last night

I've not seen anyone that actually matters say Trump was anything other than a car crash last night - that includes a dozen or so Republicans on various TV stations, the radio etc etc

Like I said earlier, Biden wasn't anything to write home about, but he didn't need to be because he knew Trump was going to be a car crash.

I'd be genuinely interested in the reasons why someone thought Trump had a good night though

[KateR]

I for one thought he was terrible Vegas, yet I did not see Biden come out of this with any glory, there were things all round but the end result from my OP was neither won anything other than showing how poor they both were, child like and embarrassing from both was my final assessment.

[Vegas Claret]

I for one thought he was terrible Vegas, yet I did not see Biden come out of this with any glory, there were things all round but the end result from my OP was neither won anything other than showing how poor they both were, child like and embarrassing from both was my final assessment.

agree 100%

What I would say is we all know politicians let's say "stretch the truth" and do get numbers wrong now and again (there is genuinely a lot to remember) and I think on a couple of occasions I cringed at what Biden said - but, Trump lied from start to finish - it would be easier to pick out the truth from the fiction. The losers were the American public, absolute shambles from start to finish but the petulance on display from Trump seriously harmed his chances. His base is going to vote for him regardless, he needed to appeal particularly to those undecided women voters and I'll be astonished if he didn't do the exact opposite..............but it's Trump and America so who knows ?!!!

[Damo]

I've not seen anyone that actually matters say Trump was anything other than a car crash last night - that includes a dozen or so Republicans on various TV stations, the radio etc etc

Like I said earlier, Biden wasn't anything to write home about, but he didn't need to be because he knew Trump was going to be a car crash.

I'd be genuinely interested in the reasons why someone thought Trump had a good night though

I didn't say anyone that mattered said trump was anything other than a car crash in my post did i?
Sometimes I think quite a lot of my posts get lost in translation when you guys from Vegas read them.

[Vegas Claret]

I didn't say anyone that mattered said trump was anything other than a car crash in my post did i?
Sometimes I think quite a lot of my posts get lost in translation when you guys from Vegas read them.

I never said you did, I was merely commenting on what I had heard over here

Damo, not sure why you feel like you are being attacked all the time, might be better if you just read things as is rather than imagining an agenda behind it - trust me, I have nothing against you at all, I don't agree with 99.9% of what you say but that's fine - try debating instead of acting like Trump or the thread will end up getting locked again

Chill out man !!

[Damo]

I never said you did, I was merely commenting on what I had heard over here

Damo, not sure why you feel like you are being attacked all the time, might be better if you just read things as is rather than imagining an agenda behind it - trust me, I have nothing against you at all, I don't agree with 99.9% of what you say but that's fine - try debating instead of acting like Trump or the thread will end up getting locked again

Chill out man !!

Sorry pal.
I wasn't being funny then. We both seem to have a very similar view of last nights events.
It was a shambles. The whole situation is.
Much like what we faced over here in the last GE.
People voting for the person you dislike the least

[Vegas Claret]

Sorry pal.
I wasn't being funny then. We both seem to have a very similar view of last nights events.
It was a shambles. The whole situation is.
Much like what we faced over here in the last GE.
People voting for the person you dislike the least

I get it, it's very easy to get tetchy, me and you have had a few on the other thread but it really doesn't get us anywhere. I'd rather us just take a breath, understand none of it is a personal attack, and just discuss the points regardless of agreement or otherwise. I watched last night and was horrified, it was literally like watching that last thread on TV, we can do better than that. I think those that don't should just be ignored from this point on. KateR and I had a slight tetchy moment last week but we sorted it and our communication has been far more cordial since.

and yes, the choice out of 350 million people is pathetic !

[Damo]

I get it, it's very easy to get tetchy, me and you have had a few on the other thread but it really doesn't get us anywhere. I'd rather us just take a breath, understand none of it is a personal attack, and just discuss the points regardless of agreement or otherwise. I watched last night and was horrified, it was literally like watching that last thread on TV, we can do better than that. I think those that don't should just be ignored from this point on. KateR and I had a slight tetchy moment last week but we sorted it and our communication has been far more cordial since.

There's no hard feelings from me pal honest. Perhaps I just worded it wrong. I didn't want you to misunderstand my point is all.

[KateR]

agree 100%

What I would say is we all know politicians let's say "stretch the truth" and do get numbers wrong now and again (there is genuinely a lot to remember) and I think on a couple of occasions I cringed at what Biden said - but, Trump lied from start to finish - it would be easier to pick out the truth from the fiction. The losers were the American public, absolute shambles from start to finish but the petulance on display from Trump seriously harmed his chances. His base is going to vote for him regardless, he needed to appeal particularly to those undecided women voters and I'll be astonished if he didn't do the exact opposite..............but it's Trump and America so who knows ?!!!

what I think is a misnomer from many is in regard to the emphasis on the past rather than the future. It is a debate about something in the future but yes the past needs to be looked at and viewed as historical for what the future can hold. There is no voting for what Trump did in the past only what he can do for the future, similar for Biden but much less so in what we can gain from what he has done in the past so I was looking for that idea/excitement from him because yes I don't think trump is going to change much if any at all.

As everyone knows we are in a pandemic and we need to get out of it and the economy will be the future main event and even now it's gaining close to what the pandemic has been doing for months. It boils down to do you open, which is clearly yes from everyone but the big question is when, both had different views and I for one have no confidence in Biden as leading the US during this year to date and doing any better than Trump, but that's a moot point for me.

Going forward the main issue is the economy and the recovery, Biden talked about what he did with Obama when first elected after the crash, I think what that administration did was good, maybe a little slower than I would have wished but never the less good. I am not to sure what the VP at the time did though and that is where he losses my confidence, talks of these tax increases will not do him a lot of good as I believe it will lead to job losses. I like his stance on climate change but for me he got numerous things wrong and I was equating a lot of what he said to JC and the labour manifesto, where I was stumped as to how will it all be paid for and that is another negative for him.

me, tetchy, surely not

I think Trump did well with the economy all round but nowhere near as good as he claims, yet at the moment I would trust him more with the future economy than I would Biden, I have always been a proponent of stimulating the economy, there are clear signs of that even today during the last couple of months. I think Biden would have stalled the economy during the last few months and there he loses points with me.

I think it's still anyone's to win but can agree with many on here, the candidates are such a poor choice and also that Trump is childish and definitely not nice or even decent person and that puts me off, millions will have to decide just how much come Nov.

One last point is that I think postal voting will end up in a car crash and I agreed with Trump more on that than I did Biden but am convinced there will be a huge increase in postal voting and it will be unprecedented.

[PeterWilton]

good heavens, I show you things that you completely discount and try to show me something that you expect I have to agree with, use your god given brain please, try reading where people have done a fact check and said Biden lied, can you understand this little sentence, not that KateR said he lied and he was right.

Why are you in total denial of this, I proved he lied accept it and move on, go write to BBC and the Bureau, tell them they are wrong and explain to them why they are wrong, go to the Allenburg public policy center and tell them as well.

While you're at it and we are talking about brains, can you explain that from two different reliable sources, not Kate,that said manufacturing jobs went up under Trump and were continuing to rise, Jan 2020, 487,000 extra manufacturing jobs, is this a lie or not? If not, please advise me why/how manufacturing went down, is it productivity, are all the additional people working doing nothing along with all those who were in work?

Bellow is from the Federal Reserve in regard to IP (Manufacturing) your chart is in regard to seasonally adjusted which is explained further down:

Release Date: March 27, 2019
The Federal Reserve has revised its index of industrial production (IP) and the related measures of capacity and capacity utilization.[1] On net, the revisions to the growth rates for total IP for recent years were small and positive, with the estimates for 2016 and 2017 a bit higher and the estimates for 2015 and 2018 slightly lower.[2] Total IP is still reported to have increased from the end of the recession in mid-2009 through late 2014 before declining in 2015 and rebounding in mid-2016. Subsequently, the index advanced around 7 1/2 percent over 2017 and 2018.

Revised Seasonal Factors
Seasonal factors for production-worker hours—which adjust for timing, holiday, and monthly seasonal patterns—were updated with data through January 2019. The updated factors for the physical product series, which include adjustments for holiday and workday patterns, used data through December 2018 where available.

It's impossible to explain to someone who refused to accept basic facts. The US manufacturing secotd was in a resession befor Covid hit. Literally every economist, every business journalist, everyone can understand that. Except you.

You were wrong. Biden didn't lie. He was correct. Why are you so adamant when you have been proven wrong?

I'm actually just going to stop responding directly to you and instead talk past you. I'll still correct you, but it won't be for your benefit anymore.

[Vegas Claret]

what I think is a misnomer from many is in regard to the emphasis on the past rather than the future. It is a debate about something in the future but yes the past needs to be looked at and viewed as historical for what the future can hold. There is no voting for what Trump did in the past only what he can do for the future, similar for Biden but much less so in what we can gain from what he has done in the past so I was looking for that idea/excitement from him because yes I don't think trump is going to change much if any at all.

I don't think Biden was given much of a chance to outline anything because Trump just kept interrupting

As everyone knows we are in a pandemic and we need to get out of it and the economy will be the future main event and even now it's gaining close to what the pandemic has been doing for months. It boils down to do you open, which is clearly yes from everyone but the big question is when, both had different views and I for one have no confidence in Biden as leading the US during this year to date and doing any better than Trump, but that's a moot point for me.

Biden wants to open sensibly and under the advice of the scientists, Trump has the likes of De Santis trying to kill off Flordians - there should be an easy balance and we can only really go off what we have seen, Trump has killed his economy

Going forward the main issue is the economy and the recovery, Biden talked about what he did with Obama when first elected after the crash, I think what that administration did was good, maybe a little slower than I would have wished but never the less good. I am not to sure what the VP at the time did though and that is where he losses my confidence, talks of these tax increases will not do him a lot of good as I believe it will lead to job losses. I like his stance on climate change but for me he got numerous things wrong and I was equating a lot of what he said to JC and the labour manifesto, where I was stumped as to how will it all be paid for and that is another negative for him.

pretty sure it's been proven that the last 4 or 5 Dem administrations have led to a significant upturn in the economy

me, tetchy, surely not

It was the royal we!!

I think Trump did well with the economy all round but nowhere near as good as he claims, yet at the moment I would trust him more with the future economy than I would Biden, I have always been a proponent of stimulating the economy, there are clear signs of that even today during the last couple of months. I think Biden would have stalled the economy during the last few months and there he loses points with me.

I don't trust him one jot, the economy is not the stock market, can't remember the exact number but it was around 55% of Americans own shares - the people that need the help with lower wages etc clearly aren't in that 55%. That's not saying I know if Biden would do any better but that Tax thing is nonsense unless you earn over 400K - I've lost count of the amount of times he, his team, his party have said that to be the case - Fox just lie about it

I think it's still anyone's to win but can agree with many on here, the candidates are such a poor choice and also that Trump is childish and definitely not nice or even decent person and that puts me off, millions will have to decide just how much come Nov.

One last point is that I think postal voting will end up in a car crash and I agreed with Trump more on that than I did Biden but am convinced there will be a huge increase in postal voting and it will be unprecedented.

agree with the last two, but 5 states have voted this way for ages, the military have voted this way forever and the entire Trump family votes that way - can't have it both ways

[daveisaclaret]

I think the debate was a really serious win for Biden.

The important constituency at this point are the people who may vote for Biden or may not vote. I think a lot of them will have got exactly what they expected from Biden last night (ie totally average, nothing to write home about) in contrast to Trump and realised that Biden's lack of appeal is small fry in comparison of the need to get rid of Trump.

It's so utterly depressing some of the Trump support from racists on this board, mind.

[Taffy on the wing]

Someone with multiple usernames and a 24 hour a day boner for trump asking someone else if they are ill

Irony

Chivalry is alive and kicking on the Coast!

[PeterWilton]

The mail-in voting bullshit is exactly that. Bullshit. Even Trump's FBI director thinks so.

But it doesn't have to be true, it only has to feel true to Trump's supporters and some gullible non-supporters, because then Trump and his party can try to justify their attempted coup if the election is close enough.

[Taffy on the wing]

Trump himself votes by mail!
Passports are sent in the mail!
Green cards are sent in the mail!
I could go on, but you get the picture the mail is safe.

[KateR]

agree with the last two, but 5 states have voted this way for ages, the military have voted this way forever and the entire Trump family votes that way - can't have it both ways

I completely agree with 90% of what you say, I agree the mail generally is safe, hubby received his fathers day card 3 weeks ago in a real state with a nice letter inside from the postal service about how sorry they were for it having been folded in half and full of some stains, however this is very rare and of little consequence. What is of consequence is that certain ballots were found not delivered and again while a small fraction of what is required it is a potential issue, for both sides I think.

However, I believe that the sheer size of the ballots and when they arrive, plus how long to count and announce, it also leads to the issue of being able to claim foul, so these are issues that I see may happen. Of course as long as it's not your side having ballots/votes stolen/hidden and not counted then there is no worry, is there, it is the sheer magnitude of the thing and I am not advocating that postal votes should be stopped. I think, that is what Trump is also saying, generally postal votes are of no issue/consequence but maybe, just maybe this time they will be, I hope not.

[Vegas Claret]

I completely agree with 90% of what you say, I agree the mail generally is safe, hubby received his fathers day card 3 weeks ago in a real state with a nice letter inside from the postal service about how sorry they were for it having been folded in half and full of some stains, however this is very rare and of little consequence. What is of consequence is that certain ballots were found not delivered and again while a small fraction of what is required it is a potential issue, for both sides I think.

However, I believe that the sheer size of the ballots and when they arrive, plus how long to count and announce, it also leads to the issue of being able to claim foul, so these are issues that I see may happen. Of course as long as it's not your side having ballots/votes stolen/hidden and not counted then there is no worry, is there, it is the sheer magnitude of the thing and I am not advocating that postal votes should be stopped. I think, that is what Trump is also saying, generally postal votes are of no issue/consequence but maybe, just maybe this time they will be, I hope not.

My only response to Trump bitching about the post is if he had sorted the virus out when he knew in Feb then there is a fair chance by now that the mail in votes would be pretty limited - it's all a bit self inflicted. There's no proof either way, all the stats say historically the % is beyond minimal - last night, him whining over 7 votes being found in a stream (which I've seen zero proof of) was pretty lame. He's setting it all up for a fight in the court, the US has gone to ****

[KateR]

My only response to Trump bitching about the post is if he had sorted the virus out when he knew in Feb then there is a fair chance by now that the mail in votes would be pretty limited - it's all a bit self inflicted. There's no proof either way, all the stats say historically the % is beyond minimal - last night, him whining over 7 votes being found in a stream (which I've seen zero proof of) was pretty lame. He's setting it all up for a fight in the court, the US has gone to ****

it's a trivial argument but it has been proven I believe that it was more than 7 that were found in the rubbish in addition to the stream which he did mention (the rubbish that is. As I said it's tiny I agree but is it a pointer to something bigger, I certainly don't want it to be decided by a court, I would be 100% against that but I am not against postal votes.

[Devils_Advocate]

One of the reasons postal voting is so safe against fraud is because the effort and difficulty plus the amount of co-conspirators needed to falsify even small amounts of postal votes doesnt get anywhere close to touching the surface of actually influencing the actual result

The reality of the level of fraud needed within a certain boundary to change the outcome is pretty much impossible to achieve without being spotted

[yTib]

The reality of the level of fraud needed within a certain boundary to change the outcome is pretty much impossible to achieve without being spotted

and the assumption that any fraud is necessarily beneficial purely to biden is bizarre. even the most rational of folk seem to have fallen for this.

[Vegas Claret]

and the assumption that any fraud is necessarily beneficial purely to biden is bizarre. even the most rational of folk seem to have fallen for this.

well this was it, the so called "ballots in the stream" were apparently 7 Trump and 2 Biden - it's not like it was 2000 Trump and no Biden !! And I would say the same if it was Biden making the argument

[KateR]

so moving on to Biden lie number two after conclusive evidence for lie, sorry his mistake, over number one:

Let's call it he wasn't aware shall we or maybe it's that part of the picture that is missing as I have highlighted:

Biden: "Trump hasn't lowered drug prices for anyone"

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Price Index (CPI) - which measures the cost of household items in the US - the average monthly cost of prescription drugs fell by 0.3% in the year to August 2019.

This was the first price decrease over a 12-month period since 1973. While average drug prices rose by 1.5% over the following year, under President Trump the average rises have been lower than under President Obama.


all from a reliable source and not made up by Kate to support her original statement.

I have included below for providing balanced feedback for thoughts, however the graph shows how it has been measured over decades:
The CPI is not necessarily the most reliable way to measure drug prices, as it mainly includes widely used drugs, which are usually cheaper. It is less likely to include newer or less-prescribed drugs, which are more expensive and have higher price increases.

[Rileybobs]

so moving on to Biden lie number two after conclusive evidence for lie, sorry his mistake, over number one:

Let's call it he wasn't aware shall we or maybe it's that part of the picture that is missing as I have highlighted:

Biden: "Trump hasn't lowered drug prices for anyone"

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Price Index (CPI) - which measures the cost of household items in the US - the average monthly cost of prescription drugs fell by 0.3% in the year to August 2019.

This was the first price decrease over a 12-month period since 1973. While average drug prices rose by 1.5% over the following year, under President Trump the average rises have been lower than under President Obama.


all from a reliable source and not made up by Kate to support her original statement.

I have included below for providing balanced feedback for thoughts, however the graph shows how it has been measured over decades:
The CPI is not necessarily the most reliable way to measure drug prices, as it mainly includes widely used drugs, which are usually cheaper. It is less likely to include newer or less-prescribed drugs, which are more expensive and have higher price increases.

I haven’t seen the debate so I’m only going off your post, but drug price increases being lower than under Obama isn’t the same as drug prices being lowered.

[KateR]

I haven’t seen the debate so I’m only going off your post, but drug price increases being lower than under Obama isn’t the same as drug prices being lowered.

yet the fact checkers do, so I thought, I would have thought if prices went up under Obama and came down under Trump, by definition would lead to the conclusion that they were lowered.

for some further info in regard to this, please note the following along with the point of what Biden said , he hasn't lowered prices for anyone (in regard to drug costs and his time in office) You will note I have shown and made the statement regarding 2020 but as far as I am concerned living here I am discounting 2020 from either party due to the pandemic. 2019 definitely showed it going the right way and it's something he (Trump) has been banging on about, in fact as was mentioned in the, errr debate, that Trump has just/recently signed more executive orders in relation to reducing drug costs, Biden was poo pooing this idea and made the statement as something of fact, it's no big deal and not a major issue and not one I believe is going to change any voters opinion but .....:

From another fact checking source, these are all over the place and easy to find:
Trump is wrong to say drug prices decreased last year for the first time in “51 years,” as we’ve explained before, and that talking point is now outdated. By the administration’s own measure, the drop was the first decrease in five-and-a-half years, and the recent data shows drug prices have now increased (in 2020).

The Bureau of Labor Statistics’ consumer price index for prescription drugs — a measure of drug price inflation that aims to capture what consumers, along with their insurance companies or other payers, are paying for a basket of retail prescriptions — shows the CPI decreased year-over-year in nine out of 10 months, beginning in December 2018. That was the longest sustained drop in the measure since the early 1970s. But the year-over-year (2020) measure has now gone up for nine months straight.

[martin_p]

yet the fact checkers do, so I thought, I would have thought if prices went up under Obama and came down under Trump, by definition would lead to the conclusion that they were lowered.

for some further info in regard to this, please note the following along with the point of what Biden said , he hasn't lowered prices for anyone (in regard to drug costs and his time in office) You will note I have shown and made the statement regarding 2020 but as far as I am concerned living here I am discounting 2020 from either party due to the pandemic. 2019 definitely showed it going the right way and it's something he (Trump) has been banging on about, in fact as was mentioned in the, errr debate, that Trump has just/recently signed more executive orders in relation to reducing drug costs, Biden was poo pooing this idea and made the statement as something of fact, it's no big deal and not a major issue and not one I believe is going to change any voters opinion but .....:

From another fact checking source, these are all over the place and easy to find:
Trump is wrong to say drug prices decreased last year for the first time in “51 years,” as we’ve explained before, and that talking point is now outdated. By the administration’s own measure, the drop was the first decrease in five-and-a-half years, and the recent data shows drug prices have now increased (in 2020).

The Bureau of Labor Statistics’ consumer price index for prescription drugs — a measure of drug price inflation that aims to capture what consumers, along with their insurance companies or other payers, are paying for a basket of retail prescriptions — shows the CPI decreased year-over-year in nine out of 10 months, beginning in December 2018. That was the longest sustained drop in the measure since the early 1970s. But the year-over-year (2020) measure has now gone up for nine months straight.

So I’m really struggling to understand how historically low price rises has made drugs cheaper.

[KateR]

moving along, another thing he got wrong:
“We have a higher deficit with China now than we did before. — Biden His "before" was in relation to before he took office.

In millions:
TOTAL 2015 115,873.4 483,201.7 -367,328.3

TOTAL 2016 115,594.8 462,420.0 -346,825.2

TOTAL 2017 129,997.2 505,165.1 -375,167.9

TOTAL 2018 120,289.3 539,243.1 -418,953.9

TOTAL 2019 106,447.3 451,651.4 -345,204.2

TOTAL 2020 58,527.8 221,864.8 -163,336.9 (only 7 months for 2020, so as I have said before we can discount 2020, but 2019 was lower than 2015/2016)

[Devils_Advocate]

Fact checking Kate is a full time job on here but its obviously one that is necessary

[martin_p]

Fact checking Kate is a full time job on here but its obviously one that is necessary

It’s alright, see provides the stats that prove her own assertions wrong.

The China defecit one is accurate though.

[KateR]

It’s alright, see provides the stats that prove her own assertions wrong. they were clearly (well to most people) not my assertions, I was providing details that are supposed to be facts from fact checking but your quite good at attacking the messenger rather than the message, or as Ringo schools you, taking the player rather than the ball.

The China defecit one is accurate though.

it's ok Martin, you keep burying your head in the sand, there are lots of fact checking sites including the BBC but I am sure you and Walter are far more reliable than they are where they say Biden - false, as I said previously go to them and show them your proof where they are wrong but we all know you wont because facts and understand others points of view have never been your strong points. Just keep promoting the hatred, I'm sure you'll help shutdown this thread too.

However, at least you have accepted one as a fact so I will now do what Lancaster does and retire with this as my last point on this subject, but we all can look forward to another two full packed with fun circuses, I mean debates, plus the one between the VP's, which is actually the one I am looking forward to most.

[Taffy on the wing]

I see your friend Donald now denies knowing who the Proud Boys are.
How can you keep defending this buffoon?

[Vegas Claret]

date on the tweet......

[KateR]

I see your friend Donald now denies knowing who the Proud Boys are.,
How can you keep defending this buffoon?

funnily enough I just watched that , but what else would anyone expect from him.

I think you keep misunderstand what I say or why I say it, I am not defending him, I really don't like him and his behavior was atrocious last night, you would have also seen where he also just said he really enjoyed last night, I think he did, he loves that kind of confrontation. Will be interesting where they are discussing rule changes for the next debates because I am convinced he sees this as his strong point and won't want anything that dilutes that kind of behavior. I definitely could have put up many many more lies by Trump over and above Biden with what he said from fact checking, but I feel there is never a need because everyone is in agreement around those and there is no debate, just agreement.

He certainly lied more, embellished more, bragged more on untruths, however not everything he said was a lie and not everything Biden said was true, that was and always has been my point. I don't feel in any way shape or form that I am defending him but if we are going to debate anything then people should stick to the truth and facts, some of it is obviously around perception also from all sides and points that were discussed in the 90 minutes. When people blindly go into these threads with hatred and can't accept that others have faults then it becomes a false debate IMO.

I said on my OP it was terrible, it was shocking and the more you see it and hear it the more it becomes unbelievable, surely as has been said many times it's Americans and America that are the losers from this.

I will also say one last thing from your post, up until a few days ago I had never heard of NFAC and Grand Master Jay, last night was the first I had heard of Proud Boys, but I'm not saying or trying to justify Trumps comments because I am convinced he does/did know who they were. Furthermore, both these, and many similar organizations, are something I will never support or condone in anyway.

[Taffy on the wing]

And yet you jump to his defense at every opportunity!
The man is indefensible by any measure, on any level.
He is a Lying, Misogynistic, Serial Groping, Humorless, Gluttonous, Criminal, Pig of a Man.

The following is from the New Yorker magazine....re the choices in this Election.

To put them in perspective, think of being on an airplane.
The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart.
"Can i interest you in the Chicken?" she asks.
"Or would you prefer the platter of **** with bits of broken glass in it?"

To be undecided in this Election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the Chicken is cooked.

This was by David Sedaris.

[Vegas Claret]

funnily enough I just watched that , but what else would anyone expect from him.

I think you keep misunderstand what I say or why I say it, I am not defending him, I really don't like him and his behavior was atrocious last night, you would have also seen where he also just said he really enjoyed last night, I think he did, he loves that kind of confrontation. Will be interesting where they are discussing rule changes for the next debates because I am convinced he sees this as his strong point and won't want anything that dilutes that kind of behavior. I definitely could have put up many many more lies by Trump over and above Biden with what he said from fact checking, but I feel there is never a need because everyone is in agreement around those and there is no debate, just agreement.

He certainly lied more, embellished more, bragged more on untruths, however not everything he said was a lie and not everything Biden said was true, that was and always has been my point. I don't feel in any way shape or form that I am defending him but if we are going to debate anything then people should stick to the truth and facts, some of it is obviously around perception also from all sides and points that were discussed in the 90 minutes. When people blindly go into these threads with hatred and can't accept that others have faults then it becomes a false debate IMO.

I said on my OP it was terrible, it was shocking and the more you see it and hear it the more it becomes unbelievable, surely as has been said many times it's Americans and America that are the losers from this.

I will also say one last thing from your post, up until a few days ago I had never heard of NFAC and Grand Master Jay, last night was the first I had heard of Proud Boys, but I'm not saying or trying to justify Trumps comments because I am convinced he does/did know who they were. Furthermore, both these, and many similar organizations, are something I will never support or condone in anyway.

I think last night was Trumps best opportunity, people are already voting (over 1 million so far). If they get a better moderator and it actually comes down to policy then Trump is goosed because he doesn't have one.

How's your healthcare Kate ? Dunno about you but I've been waiting 4 years for his plan

[Wokingclaret]

5 pages of.,,,and not a kick of a ball

Not seen Biden since, is he sleeping it off

Look forward to the Vice Presidents next week

[Vegas Claret]

5 pages of.,,,and not a kick of a ball

Not seen Biden since, is he sleeping it off

Look forward to the Vice Presidents next week

no he was out campaigning in Pennsylvania

[PeterWilton]

so moving on to Biden lie number two after conclusive evidence for lie, sorry his mistake, over number one:

Let's call it he wasn't aware shall we or maybe it's that part of the picture that is missing as I have highlighted:

Biden: "Trump hasn't lowered drug prices for anyone"

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Price Index (CPI) - which measures the cost of household items in the US - the average monthly cost of prescription drugs fell by 0.3% in the year to August 2019.

This was the first price decrease over a 12-month period since 1973. While average drug prices rose by 1.5% over the following year, under President Trump the average rises have been lower than under President Obama.


all from a reliable source and not made up by Kate to support her original statement.

I have included below for providing balanced feedback for thoughts, however the graph shows how it has been measured over decades:
The CPI is not necessarily the most reliable way to measure drug prices, as it mainly includes widely used drugs, which are usually cheaper. It is less likely to include newer or less-prescribed drugs, which are more expensive and have higher price increases.

Show us what trump did to reduce those prices.

[Vegas Claret]

he hasn't lowered mine that's for sure. My taxes, fuel and food have all gone up

[martin_p]

they were clearly (well to most people) not my assertions, I was providing details that are supposed to be facts

So this isn’t you asserting that Biden lied then is it?

so moving on to Biden lie number two after conclusive evidence for lie, sorry his mistake, over number one:

Let's call it he wasn't aware shall we or maybe it's that part of the picture that is missing as I have highlighted:

Biden: "Trump hasn't lowered drug prices for anyone"

it's ok Martin, you keep burying your head in the sand, there are lots of fact checking sites including the BBC but I am sure you and Walter are far more reliable than they are where they say Biden - false, as I said previously go to them and show them your proof where they are wrong but we all know you wont because facts and understand others points of view have never been your strong points. Just keep promoting the hatred, I'm sure you'll help shutdown this thread too.

However, at least you have accepted one as a fact so I will now do what Lancaster does and retire with this as my last point on this subject, but we all can look forward to another two full packed with fun circuses, I mean debates, plus the one between the VP's, which is actually the one I am looking forward to most.

Yes, I know the stats are from the BBC site and I know they represent the facts. What they show is that average drug prices have been higher every year than they were in the year Trump took office. The BBC site presents the facts and doesn’t offer an opinion on whether what Biden says is a lie or not (presumably it’s scared to offer any sort of opinion these days) but the facts are clear, average drug prices are higher now than in 2015/16, so Biden is right! If you don’t understand what the graph is telling you the perhaps it’s you that needs ‘schooling’.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Chivalry is alive and kicking on the Coast!

Suppose being accused of chivalry is slightly better than coming across as someone who targets women online. You could possibly get on well with Donald

[PeterWilton]

So this isn’t you asserting that Biden lied then is it?






Yes, I know the stats are from the BBC site and I know they represent the facts. What they show is that average drug prices have been higher every year than they were in the year Trump took office. The BBC site presents the facts and doesn’t offer an opinion on whether what Biden says is a lie or not (presumably it’s scared to offer any sort of opinion these days) but the facts are clear, average drug prices are higher now than in 2015/16, so Biden is right! If you don’t understand what the graph is telling you the perhaps it’s you that needs ‘schooling’.

It doesn't matter even matter if they're lower unless she can point to something Trump did to make them lower.

Biden said Trump didn't do anything to lower the prices and Kate cannot show otherwise.

[claretabroad]

At what point was rational debate thrown out the window?

Politics has gone in a horrible direction with no place for calm discussion. Now sides are entrenched in their position and stick their fingers in their ears or just call the other person a liar. Nobody is prepared to be flexible and meet on common ground.

It is all very sad and I hope this is just a phase that politics is going through. I suspect the rise of partisan news channels means it is here to stay though.