claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:13 pm

Imagine a world without religion or religious buildings

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:13 pm

Imagine a world without religion or religious buildings

CoolClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:11 pm

Not that straight forward is it, what fills the void?

I don't subscribe to any religion but equally accept that some of the most heinous crimes against humanity have been filled in atheistic regimes in which the state becomes 'God's..... but that's a whole different debate

CoolClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:11 pm

Not that straight forward is it, what fills the void?

I don't subscribe to any religion but equally accept that some of the most heinous crimes against humanity have been filled in atheistic regimes in which the state becomes 'God's..... but that's a whole different debate

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:12 pm

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Why do we need something to fill a void?
As an Atheist I've yet to murder or assault anyone in anyway shape or form, same for every other Atheist I personally know.
Just like every religious person I personally know hasn't as yet killed or assaulted anyone.

People will commit horrible crimes regardless of their religion or lack of, just Atheists don't hide behind a God or seek forgiveness from a god to absolve them of responsibility for their crimes.

If someone truly needs something to worship then by all means crack on, but the fact that it's been common knowledge for a good number of years now that the Catholic /Christian Church protects child abusers within its ranks and people still support the church in all it does is more than a little odd.
The church has been doing this stuff across the world for centuries, it was raised by a Pope a long time ago as a problem.

Spiral wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:27 pm

I'm just going to throw a hand grenade into the discussion by saying it's a bit quiet for a paedo thread, this one.

CoolClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:42 pm

This is a massive debate and I can't really be bothered about getting into it, but it's a highly simplistic view that simply taking religion out of the world = a much better place.

You are also looking at it from an n=1 viewpoint of you and your actions- which I'm sure are of virtue.

We'd have to decide what ethical code laws are set based on - who decides that? Do we start utilising utilitarian principles about the collective when it comes to ethical decisions?.. Pretty sure in the USSR it was collective > individual.

I wholeheartedly don't support the church but can also appreciate some of its teachings and the way in which it is woven into Western culture.

I'd actually wager as people have become less religious and going to church theres been a less communal feel - what is uniting folk?...

All things to consider - but by no means am I an apologist for cover ups by the church, they are absolutely disgraceful

Burnley1989 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:23 pm

Pathetic thread

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:13 pm

Imagine a world without religion or religious buildings

BurnleyFC wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:10 am

Religion - yes. Religious buildings - no.

Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world are religious buildings.

BurnleyFC wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:10 am

Religion - yes. Religious buildings - no.

Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world are religious buildings.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:32 am

Salisbury Cathedral always impresses me.

The spire couldn't be made any straighter using today's technology, that's how well built it is.

Damo wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:38 pm

Its nice to have a thread about this sort of thing, where we nobody appears to be defending the perpetrators.

Greenmile wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:04 pm

Perhaps you could point me to the threads where people are defending child abusers. I’d like to have a word with them, if you’ve not just made them up.

It is, however, nice to have a thread like this where innocent folk who happen to believe in the same version of God as the abusers aren’t being tarred with the same brush.

Damo wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:11 pm

I just did a quick search, and it appears the threads I'm thinking of have been deleted.
Obviously when I say defended, I don't mean outright defended the people doing it. I meant the sly dog whistlers and the whataboutery people who seem to get angry when these threads pop up

Greenmile wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:19 pm

Sly dog whistling like the suggestion that anyone who doesn’t condemn all Muslims for the actions of a few is implicitly condoning child abuse, you mean?

Damo wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:09 pm

Absolutely nowhere was that said or implied. Stop making things up

CoolClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:11 pm

Not that straight forward is it, what fills the void?

I don't subscribe to any religion but equally accept that some of the most heinous crimes against humanity have been filled in atheistic regimes in which the state becomes 'God's..... but that's a whole different debate

Greenmile wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:04 pm

Perhaps you could point me to the threads where people are defending child abusers. I’d like to have a word with them, if you’ve not just made them up.

It is, however, nice to have a thread like this where innocent folk who happen to believe in the same version of God as the abusers aren’t being tarred with the same brush.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:56 pm

Innocent folk who are still attending the churches of the same organisations that have been proven to protect the abusers are part of the problem.

The CoE and Catholic organisations are littered with child abusers, in the Catholic Church that includes someone who was once touted as a potential Pope.

Why people keep going to church I'll never understand.

Greenmile wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:02 pm

Presumably they get something out of it. Maybe they just think they’ll end up in Hell if they stop attending. Or perhaps it’s just an excuse to get out of the house and meet people. It’s hard to find a reason for any act of faith.

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that innocent church (or mosque) goers are “part of the problem”, though. You could argue that organised religion in itself is part of the problem, but it’s a stretch to blame everyday believers for the crimes of The Church.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:33 pm

Organised religion needs its brainwashed attendees.

If those attendees woke up and took a stance against what their branch of the religion was doing then I'd have more respect.
The fact is they don't, they keep rocking up, donating money and ignoring what's happened despite it being in the news for a fair old while now, that's why they're part of the problem.

The same can be applied to communities who ignore what the men are doing and blame the victims.

The CoE will pay lip service to this issue, just like the Catholic Church has done, because they know that their attendees will just keep on turning up...

Greenmile wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:04 pm

Perhaps you could point me to the threads where people are defending child abusers. I’d like to have a word with them, if you’ve not just made them up.

It is, however, nice to have a thread like this where innocent folk who happen to believe in the same version of God as the abusers aren’t being tarred with the same brush.

JTClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:50 pm

You may have spoken too soon ha
Lots of valid points and plenty of sweeping statements on here. It would be just as fair to say every church member is either a child abusing or enabler as it would to call every football fan a racist and hooligan... in that, it wouldn't be fair - But there's lots of non-football fans that would say it.
It wouldn't be suggested to ban football and knock down grounds until it was ended, but hopefully the churches would actually do something about it as football does try.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:27 pm

Church goers who attend without demanding reform are basically allowing the churches to get away with child abuse.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:53 pm

I’m not sure that a lot of church-goers are particularly invested in what’s going on with the organisation as a whole. If child abuse was prevalent in a particular parish and the congregation turned a blind eye then I’d agree with you. But you can’t pin the blame for the institutionalised issues on the average church goer.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:10 am

When it's reported on the news, social media and in a sodding Oscar winning movie, Spotlight, then maybe they should be more invested.

The fact that they aren't and are turning a blind eye to it just reinforces my point.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:32 am

So, as a cinema-goer I presume that you’re turning a blind eye to the sexual abuse of women in the film industry?

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:44 am

Nope, never turned a blind eye to it and I'm more than glad that the pervs in the industry are getting their comeuppance when enough evidence is found for a conviction.
I hope they nail some more and lock them up.

I used to be a fan of Steve Mcqueen until I read about his drug taking and wife beating, now I don't bother with his films.
I still don't understand why he's feted by Hollywood as some sort of Mr Cool when he was a hard drinking, cocaine sniffing wife beater.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:50 am

So your example is, I’m sure, the same as many church-goers, who no doubt want to see dirty priests exposed (not literally) and convicted. And like your Steve McQueen example, I’m sure the majority of church goers would stop going to a church that was presided over by a known sexual abuser.

And similarly to the church goers, you’re not doing anything to provoke reform in the film industry.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:08 am

Ah so you're going to flip this on me?
Fair enough.
I can make a choice to not watch films from certain actors/directors/studios.
As per the example above, if I find out something I don't like about someone in the film industry then I won't watch their product.

Church goers just keep on going even when they know what's been going on.

The Catholic Church has had concerns about the actions of its own clergy abusing women and children for approx 1700 years, they've put the odd thing in place to reduce/temporarily stop the problem, but then they go back to ignoring it and covering it up.

It's almost like they're more concerned about the brand image for their business to ensure the money keeps rolling in then they are about the well being of the common people.
That's all religion is, a money making machine with a brand image.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:27 pm

Church goers who attend without demanding reform are basically allowing the churches to get away with child abuse.

I'd need to double check but there's never really been massive outcry by the Catholics about what their church has been found guilty of doing across the world.

JTClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:34 am

Again to bring it to football. We know FIfa was/is corrupt, yet you still go and watch Burnley. That is the equivalent of what you are saying.

The vast majority of priests and vicars are not in anyway child abusers, nor will they be aware of any within the church. I do whole-heartly agree they have an obligation to find those that are, but that isn't achieved at your local parish church... unless that particular church is suspected, in which case a report should be made and taken seriously.

Accusing all church goers as a whole of allowing child abuse is quite frankly ridiculous and shows more about your anti-religion views and lack of understanding of the role of a parish church than it does provide a solution to end a horrific issue.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:43 am

At the end of the film Spotlight, they list all of the areas where they had suspected/known child abusers in the clergy.
Reading was definitely on that list, I also think Oxford was.
I'm in between the two...

If people are still willingly funding an organisation that's being repeatedly caught protecting child abusers then why is it wrong to call out those people?

My anti religious views aren't the issue, nor my supposed lack of knowledge about the parish etc.

It's people wilfully ignoring what's going on.

Fifa accepting financial bribes is a tad different to mass child abuse.

Erasmus wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:26 pm

So what is to be done now?
Both Churches are institutions much-loved by many millions of people, which bring so much comfort and support. So the obvious solution is to take vigorous reforming action to make sure it can't ever happen again, which seems to be what is being done. So there's no need for any further disagreements.

I say this as one who is not a Christian, and hasn't attended a Church service since my childhood.

JTClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:45 pm

There is a huge difference, my point was your generalisations.
Truth is, my dad is a vicar, therefore the sweeping statement that he and the members of any church he has been apart of are there to fund sex offenders and not to support a local community from the hub of a church is quite frankly insulting. I myself am not a church goer, and not particularly religious, however have obviously known a number of vicars, who would be just as upset as the church goers to be labeled the way you flippantly do without knowledge of the work, faith and beliefs they hold.

You sound like the type to decide religion is always bad. In the same way those who don't like football call the fans hooligans and racists and the players all disrespectful millionaires with 'do you know who I am?' attitudes.

Erasmus wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:26 pm

Strange that there is some kind of argument going on when everyone is pretty much in agreement. There is no doubt that both the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England have behaved abominably in putting their own institutional reputation above the wellbeing of abused individuals. Nobody disagrees on that.

So what is to be done now? GodisaDeejay seems to think that everyone should therefore give up their membership these institutions as the solution, but then he has shown himself to be a fundamentalist in his beliefs and fundamentalists always tend to take that kind of line. Both Churches are institutions much-loved by many millions of people, which bring so much comfort and support. So the obvious solution is to take vigorous reforming action to make sure it can't ever happen again, which seems to be what is being done. So there's no need for any further disagreements.

I say this as one who is not a Christian, and hasn't attended a Church service since my childhood.