Three Tier Lockdown

[TheFamilyCat]

Tony Blair should be permanently quarantined.

[mikeS]

BUrnley centre didn’t seem any different on Saturday morning as it had moved to Tier 3.
Shops open, queues at the banks, cafes open, the Boot open, people enjoying a pint at breakfast time.

[Devils_Advocate]

Blackburn had a very effective testing and tracing scheme in place, that hasn't got the numbers down.

Is there some data you have seen and can share shows volumes of how many people have been contacted through track and trace following other people being registered as positive on the system?

Im not aware of ant part of the country that has been effective in track and trace even where we have high testing so would be interested to see the data for Blackburn and if this data is available for other parts of the country

[Burnley1989]

BUrnley centre didn’t seem any different on Saturday morning as it had moved to Tier 3.
Shops open, queues at the banks, cafes open, the Boot open, people enjoying a pint at breakfast time.

None of those things were banned

[CombatClaret]

Iam saying the current restrictions won't work, iam not arguing for anything, just pointing out facts.

Ok, so we're back to where we started which is where you were agreeing that the reason thing are rising is because people are not adhering to the guidelines, halfway up this page. But now we're both in agreement with the SAGE and the chief medical officer that actually it's the guidelines that are not fit for purpose.

The government is handing out parachutes full of holes and some people are blaming the public for not using the parachutes properly.

[jrgbfc]

Any new lockdown measures are doomed to fail because the majority of the public don't believe in them anymore. They're doing just as much damage as the virus itself, if not more.

[Grumps]

Ok, so we're back to where we started which is where you were agreeing that the reason thing are rising is because people are not adhering to the guidelines, halfway up this page. But now we're both in agreement with the SAGE and the chief medical officer that actually it's the guidelines that are not fit for purpose.

The government is handing out parachutes full of holes and some people are blaming the public for not using the parachutes properly.

Not sure I ever disagreed with you

[Grumps]

Is there some data you have seen and can share shows volumes of how many people have been contacted through track and trace following other people being registered as positive on the system?

Im not aware of ant part of the country that has been effective in track and trace even where we have high testing so would be interested to see the data for Blackburn and if this data is available for other parts of the country

Lots of updates on the council website if you're really that bothered about trying to prove people wrong

[UnderSeige]

You're assuming that nobody has natural immunity and that without lockdown, everyone in the country will get it?

And for that matter, are you assuming that there are no other uncontrolled viruses that can kill or cause lifelong side effects?

When is this vaccine going to be distributed?

It is highly likely that there is some form of pre-immunity to SARS-COV2 that has existed from before the pandemic started. It is looking like it is not such a 'novel virus' after all.

Not so novel coronavirus?
At least six studies have reported T cell reactivity against SARS-CoV-2 in 20% to 50% of people with no known exposure to the virus. https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

Cross-immunity between respiratory coronaviruses may limit COVID-19 fatalities
Of the seven coronaviruses associated with disease in humans, SARS-CoV, MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 cause considerable mortality but also share significant sequence homology, and potentially antigenic epitopes capable of inducing an immune response. The degree of similarity is such that perhaps prior exposure to one virus could confer partial immunity to another. Indeed, data suggests a considerable amount of cross-reactivity and recognition by the hosts immune response between different coronavirus infections. While the ongoing COVID-19 outbreak rapidly overwhelmed medical facilities of particularly Europe and North America, accounting for 78% of global deaths, only 8% of deaths have occurred in Asia where the outbreak originated. Interestingly, Asia and the Middle East have previously experienced multiple rounds of coronavirus infections, perhaps suggesting buildup of acquired immunity to the causative SARS-CoV-2 that underlies COVID-19.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... nfections.

Previous infection with other types of coronaviruses may lessen severity of COVID-19
Date: October 6, 2020
Source: Boston Medical Center
Summary:
Being previously infected with a coronaviruses that cause the 'common cold' may decrease the severity of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) infections, according to a new study.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 132110.htm

[CombatClaret]

It is highly likely that there is some form of pre-immunity to SARS-COV2 that has existed from before the pandemic started. It is looking like it is not such a 'novel virus' after all.

We've know it's closely related to other viruses since day one, clues in the name.
Just because there are 6 other's doesn't make Covid-19 less novel, It's different enough to cause us problems.

If some people have immunity already great, but how does that help us today? There will likely be no binary measure of immune/not immune so we will have to treat everyone as equally susceptible.
It also doesn't make it less deadly, because we've seen the numbers it kills and those potentially immune were out there when those numbers were created.

[FactualFrank]

If some people have immunity already great, but how does that help us today? There will likely be no binary measure of immune/not immune so we will have to treat everyone as equally susceptible.
It also doesn't make it less deadly, because we've seen the numbers it kills and those potentially immune were out there when those numbers were created.

I doubt anybody (or many) were immune from Day 1.

It'll take 60% of the population to be immune/vaccinated to basically make it a non-entity.

[taio]

I'm optimistic a vaccine will be available to frontline health and care staff and the clinically vulnerable soon and that from that point we will be on the right path. In the meantime people should follow the rules and those struggling should take sensible risks to improve their health and wellbeing.

[FactualFrank]

I'm optimistic a vaccine will be available to frontline health and care staff and the clinically vulnerable soon and that from that point we will be on the right path. In the meantime people should follow the rules and those struggling should take sensible risks to improve their health and wellbeing.

I agree.

And if a vaccine never comes, I think better treatment will - which is the next best thing.

[mdd2]

That some of the 7billion of us cannot get this is highly likely, it is just how many. Even if it is 50% there remain a hell of a lot who may die from it even if the mortality rate were a mere 0.1%

[CombatClaret]

Seeing as some people's biggest issue with any kind of lockdown is lowering the quality of life for the very elderly in care homes it should come as great comfort that these people will be among the first to receive a vaccine.

[FactualFrank]

That some of the 7billion of us cannot get this is highly likely, it is just how many. Even if it is 50% there remain a hell of a lot who may die from it even if the mortality rate were a mere 0.1%

Well yeah. Around 400,000 would die.

[UnderSeige]

We've know it's closely related to other viruses since day one, clues in the name.
Just because there are 6 other's doesn't make Covid-19 less novel, It's different enough to cause us problems.

If some people have immunity already great, but how does that help us today? There will likely be no binary measure of immune/not immune so we will have to treat everyone as equally susceptible.
It also doesn't make it less deadly, because we've seen the numbers it kills and those potentially immune were out there when those numbers were created.

The sites that I linked are not trivial. The British Medical Journal is a serious journal siting siting six studies for example. The BMJ argue that it is less novel than we originally believed.

I started a thread two or three weeks ago entitled 'SARS-COV2 could cease to be a pandemic in the near future' (next 3-4 months). In the thread I explained the 'XYZ Hypothesis' which I think is the best explanation of the pandemic so far. It postulates that you can separate the population into three groupings at the start of the pandemic:

• X's Pre-immune

• Y's Strongly resistant to the disease. May develop mild symptoms or be asymptomatic.

• Z's Highly vulnerable to the virus. The virus is extremely transmissible to this group.

Once the virus takes hold it sweeps through the Z's. Many of them develop acute symptoms and end up in hospital. A number of these become mortalities. The rest develop antibodies and T-Cells that make them immune.

This causes a daily case rate that rises exponentially at the start. It looks like it is going to infect most of the population unless something is done. However, after a few weeks, it unexpectedly starts to tail off. It doesn't matter whether the country has 'strict lockdown' such as the UK or whether it has very loose regulations such as Brazil. It also occurs across many different types of populations and cultures. The 'Up and down curve' occurs every time unless the 'inbound infection' is halted at the outset (e.g.S Korea, New Zealand etc).
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... try/india/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... ry/brazil/

The countries that do manage to lockdown will save a lot of the Z's. However, when the lockdowns are eased, the Z's become exposed again and start to become infected. A second spike occurs that is much weaker than the first because there are less Z's for it to infect this time. This is where we are currently at in the UK.

[UnderSeige]

I'm optimistic a vaccine will be available to frontline health and care staff and the clinically vulnerable soon and that from that point we will be on the right path. In the meantime people should follow the rules and those struggling should take sensible risks to improve their health and wellbeing.

The soundings from the Projects developing vaccines suggest that your view is correct.

[UnderSeige]

Death rate in Japan fell, despite no lockdown

Compared with the United States and European countries, COVID-19-related mortality has been low in Japan, and the death rate has fallen despite the absence of a lockdown.

The reasons for the low fatality rate are not yet known. They may be related to a low SARS-CoV-2 prevalence across the general population or decreased rates of fatality among infected cases. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200 ... chers.aspx

[FactualFrank]

Once the virus takes hold it sweeps through the Z's. Many of them develop acute symptoms and end up in hospital. A number of these become mortalities. The rest develop antibodies and T-Cells that make them immune.

I read that this virus is much more about the T-cells and less about antibodies. Have you read anything similar?

I'm actually on immunosuppressants and my T-cells are always very high. My doctor described it as greyhounds being held back before a race. If I come off the MTX which suppresses them, my T cells go up and overreacts.

[Devils_Advocate]

Lots of updates on the council website if you're really that bothered about trying to prove people wrong

Im not trying to prove anyone wrong, I just asked a question. Id appreciate if you can speed things up and give me a link to some of the info and from there I should be able to find what I need.

I ask because I have read a lot around this and seen anyone put forward a case for effective track and trace and in fact quite the opposite so im genuinely interested.

Edit: Ive had a look on their website at their Coronavirus pages, the data and the track & trace pages and I honestly cannot see anything that indicates their track and trace system is effective. Appreciate if you follow it closely their might be info that requires a little more searching for so this is where Im hoping you can help me

[SingaporeClarets]

Interesting that Gove said today that Track and Trace only works when you are facing a decreasing amount of cases.

The government only got track and trace properly up and running when cases started to rise again.

Had the system been up and running properly since May and people were not so delicate about the old system "spying" on them, then maybe we'd have been able to identify cases and areas of mass spread much quicker and avert the rises we have now.

[Rileybobs]

Interesting that Gove said today that Track and Trace only works when you are facing a decreasing amount of cases.

The government only got track and trace properly up and running when cases started to rise again.

Had the system been up and running properly since May and people were not so delicate about the old system "spying" on them, then maybe we'd have been able to identify cases and areas of mass spread much quicker and avert the rises we have now.

Yeah, those delicate folk who care about their privacy.

[FactualFrank]

Yeah, those delicate folk who care about their privacy.

True. Pathetic, how some people's first response is, "But they might know where I am"

Well yeah - in the graveyard if you don't level up your IQ.

[UnderSeige]

I read that this virus is much more about the T-cells and less about antibodies. Have you read anything similar?

I'm actually on immunosuppressants and my T-cells are always very high. My doctor described it as greyhounds being held back before a race. If I come off the MTX which suppresses them, my T cells go up and overreacts.

There are quite few things that will fight against a virus. There is an article in the British Medical journal in which research has been undertaken on blood samples from the last few years. It states that blood samples from as far back as 2015 "displayed various forms of T cell reactivity to SARS-CoV-2".
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

There are also other defences in the immune system.

Macrophages are specialised cells involved in the detection, phagocytosis and destruction of bacteria and other harmful organisms. In addition, they can also present antigens to T cells and initiate inflammation by releasing molecules (known as cytokines) that activate other cells. https://www.immunology.org/public-infor ... r%20cells.

[AndrewJB]

Interesting that Gove said today that Track and Trace only works when you are facing a decreasing amount of cases.

The government only got track and trace properly up and running when cases started to rise again.

Had the system been up and running properly since May and people were not so delicate about the old system "spying" on them, then maybe we'd have been able to identify cases and areas of mass spread much quicker and avert the rises we have now.

The system wasn’t working in May. I - as a guinea pig - only got it in September or late August. Before it was rolled out to the country. For £12.3 Billion it doesnt seem to be doing much, other than padding the pockets of those who own it.

[Devils_Advocate]

[CrosspoolClarets]

For anyone interested the Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre have released their latest Covid-19 report on Friday. It compares critical care up to September and from September.

Lots of reassuring things in it - mortality down is great news, and crucially for hospital capacity length of stay in critical care is sharply down too (though with a skew in the counting methodology that is too boring for me to explain). I posted a few days ago that 1-2 weeks in critical care is typical currently, this report backs that up. Good news for those of us who have to predict when bed capacity in hospitals will run out, I remain of the view that it is getting tense in places but nowhere near what is was in March.

https://www.icnarc.org/DataServices/Att ... 505601089b

[joey13]

Does it make my opinion any less important. The press conference is worth discussing because:

1. Andy Burnham will only agree to measures in Manchester without extra funding if the whole country goes into lockdown. I think expecting 80% furlough when that does happen from the Tories given the last lockdown was supposed to be a one off is wishful thinking. It came across as selfish to those outside of Manchester.

2. His deputy mayor already started giving excuses for people not following the rules and basically condoning it. If this leads to the virus spreading outside of the higher risk areas then I think everybody regardless of where they live should be concerned about this.

3. Andy Burnham tried to make out he supported a national lockdown but after the leader of the city council misquoted the DCMO as saying tier 3 and a national lockdown were not necessary measures followed by Andy Burnham saying Well Said, then you really have to wonder what is their real motives.

The government are not going to give in and if extra measures are required, what use is delaying measures in Manchester. Yes he can say it's not fair etc and wait for a national lockdown when it inevitably happens, particularly when these types of press conferences allow the idea that any type of restriction is just the government controlling the working class and perpetuating the spread of conspiracy theories.

My views have been very clear that you have 2 approaches to go now. I'm not disagreeing with a national lockdown, I'm disagreeing with playing politics and as a leader of a city making dangerous comments.

We can either go for herd immunity and hope people follow guidelines like in Sweden, but it's quite clear with people like Andy Burnham running our major cities that people will be encouraged to not follow guidelines so the impacts of herd immunity will not be comparable to a compliant society like Sweden.

Or full on lock down, shut the borders and quarantine returning citizens in hotel rooms at their own costs, close all schools, non essential work places, enforce mask wearing and do not relax restrictions until the virus is under control across the whole country (not just London) and testing, track and trace capacity far exceeds expectations and can meet all demands. Otherwise the UK will be in and out of lockdown for many years to come with these half baked measures and the economy will never recover. Whereas countries in the far East are now reopening with very few case numbers and should I wish, the first country I can visit as a tourist since March without any quarantine on either side is now Hong Kong, with China,
Japan, S. Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia and New Zealand likely to follow. They've all been through months of very tough restrictions but have now come through the other end.

Some kind of national lockdown is inevitable with the attitudes being displayed and the poor examples being set by our politicians, Andy and Boris are kicking the can down the road and seeing who blinks first. These are not leadership qualities but we already knew that.

A simple yes or no would have sufficed

[Mala591]

Does the Covid app identify where transmission is taking place (the postcode). If yes then the severest restrictions can be implemented in those areas be they homes, pubs, schools, gyms etc etc

ALSO

Andy Burnham needs to liase with Lancashire council leaders to agree (with the government) a clear lockdown EXIT STRATEGY or we will be kept locked down 'unnecessarily' for far longer we need to be.

[FactualFrank]

Does the Covid app identify where transmission is taking place (the postcode). If yes then the severest restrictions can be implemented in those areas be they homes, pubs, schools, gyms etc etc

It just says whether the area is high or very high. It doesn't give any greater insight than that.

[UnderSeige]

Lots of updates on the council website if you're really that bothered about trying to prove people wrong

I don't think that you even need to prove this with data Grumps. It's a no brainer that track and trace is working to some extent.

In my area Track and Trace has identified a number of hot spots including several restaurants, two schools and a pub. These places were closed down for a short time and deep cleaned with customers notified. These appeared in the local press as they happened.

Track and Trace has also identified numerous hot spots around the country. Especially meat packing, food processing plants and other work places. These have appeared in the mainstream press and on the national TV and radio stations for all to see and hear about.

There is currently a number of 'government hating individuals' who seek to put the government down at every opportunity and put down any individual who would put forward a good news story. Many of them have an inflated sense of their own importance and complete lack of empathy for others. They thrive on bad news stories and attempting to make people feel bad.

They try to draw people into arguments by at first sounding reasonable. As the argument progresses they then start to slip in personal attacks on the people who who they want to put down. In the end they end up attacking the individual rather than debating the issue. They offer very little or nothing in reasoned debate. They tend to gather a 'barrel of flying monkeys' who approve of their government hating activities and like their posts.

These fellows, however, are ready to mock at anything that is beyond their immediate knowledge...They are like clouds driven up by the wind, but they bring no rain. They are like trees with the leaves of autumn but without a single fruit. Book of Jude 12 JB Phillips

Its best just to ignore them. It's also a reason why I stay away from sites like Twitter.

A few other things about track and trace.

• Is 'Track and Trace' as important now as it was at the start of the Pandemic, or when the case numbers were low in June? Track and trace is good when you are are attempting to halt the inbound infection before it takes off. Once case numbers are rising, it becomes very difficult to trace everyone. The big success stories such as S Korea started very early to contain the virus.

• 'Track and Trace' is only as good as the testing. If the testing is resulting in numerous false positives then potentially tens of thousands of people could be quarantining themselves unnecessarily. Many of these are likely to be key workers such as doctors and other health workers. A highly successful track and trace system combined with bad testing can lead to shortages in staff in hospitals, care homes, education and the economy in general.

  To summarise, false-positive COVID-19 swab test results might be increasingly likely in the current epidemiological climate in the UK, with substantial consequences at the personal, health system, and societal levels (panel). https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanr ... 7/fulltext

• Serco didn’t build and does not run the NHS Test and Trace app. https://fullfact.org/health/Serco-test-and-trace/

• Any contact tracing requires the cooperation of the public for it to work.

• Dominic Cummings’ sister is not director of company that runs the NHS track and trace app https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic ... gs-sister/

[CombatClaret]

In my area Track and Trace has identified a number of hot spots including several restaurants, two schools and a pub. These places were closed down for a short time and deep cleaned with customers notified. These appeared in the local press as they happened. ...

There is currently a number of 'government hating individuals' who seek to put the government down at every opportunity and put down any individual who would put forward a good news story. Many of them have an inflated sense of their own importance and complete lack of empathy for others. They thrive on bad news stories and attempting to make people feel bad...

Track and trace is good when you are are attempting to halt the inbound infection before it takes off. Once case numbers are rising, it becomes very difficult to trace everyone. [/list]

Test and Trace records ANOTHER worst-ever performance with just 63% of contacts of infected patients tracked down last week

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ached.html

It's not about ignoring good news stories (from July, it's October now) such as when a meat plant is identified as a hot spot, the fact we are back to square one is a clear sign they missed more than they caught.

In June/July there were only a reported 500-600 cases in the UK. An effective T&T scheme should have been able to get on top of this number and keep it low, it didn't.
Perhaps there were more cases out there than we're reported in the figures, well again that's a failure of testing.
As you yourself point out Test and Trace is good at putting out small local fires, it does not work when the whole building in on fire. So why should we not be critical of the government for letting the whole building burn, a second time!

[Burnley Ace]

Test and Trace records ANOTHER worst-ever performance with just 63% of contacts of infected patients tracked down last week

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ached.html

It's not about ignoring good news stories (from July, it's October now) such as when a meat plant is identified as a hot spot, the fact we are back to square one is a clear sign they missed more than they caught.

In June/July there were only a reported 500-600 cases in the UK. An effective T&T scheme should have been able to get on top of this number and keep it low, it didn't.
Perhaps there were more cases out there than we're reported in the figures, well again that's a failure of testing.
As you yourself point out Test and Trace is good at putting out small local fires, it does not work when the whole building in on fire. So why should we not be critical of the government for letting the whole building burn, a second time!

Why is T&T not working. The system itself is quite simple in that you give your details and if someone has tested positive they will already have your details or the person tested positive will provide your details so you can be contacted. What is the problem

1. People giving false details
2. Not using the QR but writing down details
3. When contacted not passing on right details
4. Not answering your phone to unknown numbers
5. Calls taking too long

Are we to believe that the staff working these phones are so incompetent that it’s all their fault. Does the success of T&T rely on someone going out to knock on a door to speak with someone?

[Burnley1989]

Why is T&T not working. The system itself is quite simple in that you give your details and if someone has tested positive they will already have your details or the person tested positive will provide your details so you can be contacted. What is the problem

1. People giving false details
2. Not using the QR but writing down details
3. When contacted not passing on right details
4. Not answering your phone to unknown numbers
5. Calls taking too long

Are we to believe that the staff working these phones are so incompetent that it’s all their fault. Does the success of T&T rely on someone going out to knock on a door to speak with someone?

I use the QR Code, but I've found only half the places I go have it set up. You are right, the system is simple but unfortunately a lot of the British public are also simple. Everyone seems to be finding a loop hole and using it as an excuse not to follow the rules, when they know deep down its wrong, I find it really strange.
I had a mate say to me the other day, lets go to Skipton on the beer, they're not tier 3, he genuinely thought he was ok to do that

[Bordeauxclaret]

Pressure builds on Johnson as Wales announce “fibrebreak” lockdown.

[NottsClaret]

Just on Wales' grandly titled 'firebreak lockdown', does anyone know what they're going to do differently when the two weeks is up?

A few hundred businesses will probably have gone bust, so I guess it won't be spreading around those workplaces anymore. And kids will lose another week of education, but what the hell, they're pretty screwed anyway after the last 6 months.

Is there a plan? Or is it just to be different to England for a fortnight?

[Top Claret]

People are not using the QR Code because they don't want to be traced. If traced you would have to take 2 weeks off work with loss of earnings.

Quite a lot of people or also giving false names and numbers.

Track and Trace is not working because a large majority of the population don't want to participate

[UnderSeige]

Test and Trace records ANOTHER worst-ever performance with just 63% of contacts of infected patients tracked down last week

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ached.html

It's not about ignoring good news stories (from July, it's October now) such as when a meat plant is identified as a hot spot, the fact we are back to square one is a clear sign they missed more than they caught.

In June/July there were only a reported 500-600 cases in the UK. An effective T&T scheme should have been able to get on top of this number and keep it low, it didn't.
Perhaps there were more cases out there than we're reported in the figures, well again that's a failure of testing.
As you yourself point out Test and Trace is good at putting out small local fires, it does not work when the whole building in on fire. So why should we not be critical of the government for letting the whole building burn, a second time!

Hi Combat. Your talking to an expert on being critical of the government and I said that test and trace is working to some extent. I concur that it's not been good and would have better served in February/March June/July.

What I don't like is the 'glum and glummers' who jump at every opportunity to put the government down and spread negative information to make people feel bad. The government are working through an extremely difficult period of time. Possibly the most difficult time since WW2. When looking across a number of comparable countries in Europe we don't seem to be doing any better or worse (with the exception of Germany).

Keir Starmer has been fairly good at being both critical and supportive of the government even though though he was the architect of the most laughable Brexit strategy of any party at the last election. He is a good example.

[UnderSeige]

Just on Wales' grandly titled 'firebreak lockdown', does anyone know what they're going to do differently when the two weeks is up?

A few hundred businesses will probably have gone bust, so I guess it won't be spreading around those workplaces anymore. And kids will lose another week of education, but what the hell, they're pretty screwed anyway after the last 6 months.

Is there a plan? Or is it just to be different to England for a fortnight?

Possibly stay in lockdown for a further two weeks and so on. If they release the restrictions the virus will likely take off again.

If there was going to be a full vaccine rollout in the next few weeks I would agree with their strategy. However, I agree that a two weeks total lockdown at this stage could do more harm than good.

[FactualFrank]

I use the QR Code, but I've found only half the places I go have it set up. You are right, the system is simple but unfortunately a lot of the British public are also simple. Everyone seems to be finding a loop hole and using it as an excuse not to follow the rules, when they know deep down its wrong, I find it really strange.
I had a mate say to me the other day, lets go to Skipton on the beer, they're not tier 3, he genuinely thought he was ok to do that

I would recommend sticking to the app + bluetooth. That should be enough, without checking yourself in to places. As soon as I started using the QR code, I was shown adverts related to near where I'd been, which proved to me it's got security issues.

[SingaporeClarets]

People are not using the QR Code because they don't want to be traced. If traced you would have to take 2 weeks off work with loss of earnings.

Quite a lot of people or also giving false names and numbers.

Track and Trace is not working because a large majority of the population don't want to participate

Did any of the consultants being paid 7k a day mention this?

The other end of the scale though are government tracking apps where the government has full access to everything. I can just log into a government website and they can tell me based on whether my phone has been detected in the range of phones of infected users or whether I've scanned a QR code at a place where an infected person has visited if I am at risk.

Community cases in Singapore over the last 7 days: 4 (0.07 per 100,000)

Imported cases are 27 over the last period.

No point having firebreaks if people can return home from abroad and go about their business unchecked once the restrictions are lifted. Time to take these people straight from the plane to a hotel room which they cannot leave for 14 days at their own cost (and boosting the hospitality sector). The stats above clearly demonstrate that despite having low numbers of cases, should those 27 have entered the community, how many others would have been infected undoing all the work done in April and May.

[RMutt]

I would recommend sticking to the app + bluetooth. That should be enough, without checking yourself in to places. As soon as I started using the QR code, I was shown adverts related to near where I'd been, which proved to me it's got security issues.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/ ... ies/12/10/

[ElectroClaret]

Communities Minister Robert Jenrick says if no agreement is reached with Manchester local leaders
by 12 noon tomorrow, Tier 3 restrictions will be imposed by Downing Street.
(BBC)

[conyoviejo]

Also Andy Burnham is going to be publicly hanged outside the town hall.at Midday.

[martin_p]

I would recommend sticking to the app + bluetooth. That should be enough, without checking yourself in to places. As soon as I started using the QR code, I was shown adverts related to near where I'd been, which proved to me it's got security issues.

The problem I have with the QR codes is that you can check in somewhere but not check out. Apparently the app only checks you out when you check in somewhere else or midnight. So if you check in somewhere for lunch and then don’t go anywhere else you’re checked into the lunch venue for the whole afternoon and evening.

[FactualFrank]

Also Andy Burnham is going to be publicly hanged outside the town hall.at Midday.

I don't get it with him. Is he doing all this to try and show his muscle, even if means people die, or does he genuinely believe the virus can be contained by doing whatever people want?

[martin_p]

I don't get it with him. Is he doing all this to try and show his muscle, even if means people die, or does he genuinely believe the virus can be contained by doing whatever people want?

They’re still in tier two so people are hardly doing what they want. He’s trying to protect the economy of Manchester if the city does go into tier three which is fair enough. Plus cases have started going down in Greater Manchester anyway.

[FactualFrank]

The problem I have with the QR codes is that you can check in somewhere but not check out. Apparently the app only checks you out when you check in somewhere else or midnight. So if you check in somewhere for lunch and then don’t go anywhere else you’re checked into the lunch venue for the whole afternoon and evening.

That's true. I've read of people being 'flagged' even though they left the venue 4 hours before. And like I say, there's the privacy issue. I would just turn the bluetooth on and use the app - and don't use the QR codes.

[FactualFrank]

They’re still in tier two so people are hardly doing what they want. He’s trying to protect the economy of Manchester if the city does go into tier three which is fair enough. Plus cases have started going down in Greater Manchester anyway.

He looks to be trying to put the economy over people's lives. But he also looks to be trying to attack the government without even considering the lives it can save. The cases going down, if true, is brilliant - but it wasn't known at the time.

I guess what I'm saying is, he looks to be trying to make a point for political reasons, and nothing else.