Anthony Higginbotham

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Spijed
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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Spijed » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:15 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:00 am
I'm talking about deciding direct just on the sentences only, I realise we have an appointed government & chosen judiciary, just for really serious offences such as multiple murder.
You mean you want a lynch mob?

That very much sounds like what you are proposing.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:23 am

Somethingfishy wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:06 pm
I've had this conversation with you several times and in some ways you make good points about the press attacks on Corbyn by the MSM but you also know i think you simplay cannot blame them for the fact Labour failed so badly.
Now you carry it further and blame social media. I don't know if you have ever been on Tw***er but it is heavily populated by the baying left wing mob. Not to say there aren't right wing leaning people on there but again you cannot blame social media for Julie Cooper getting booted out of power. People remember her for voting to impede Brexit on numerous key votes when it became a mess in parliament. Voting against her constituents wishes and "toeing the party line" which is quite funny when you consider the current MP is being blamed for doing the same. That was her downfall and you can quite probably blame that on the red wall collapsing.

As for the she did nothing for Burnley argument. I think it is a very throwaway comment. She certainly wasn't as public faced as Anthony Higginbotham is within the actual town. Now whether that is down to poor PR by her team is another thing. I've seen more parliamentary speeches by the current MP than i saw in all of Julie Coopers time in office. Time will judge him and there is another few years yet.
There is also the argument that it may be better for the town having an MP of the current governments party...again that remains to be seen.
Owen Jones’ recent book seems a fair summing up of what went wrong for Labour in the last election, though I’m only half way through.

You’re drawing conclusions about Cooper that I stopped short of making. I think there is a lot of hyperpartisanship from all sides on social media (the Lib Dem’s also), but so far with various responses there’s been little meat added to the framework of “Cooper was useless.” I linked her voting record further up, as I wondered which of the things she did as an MP (and how one votes has to be the ultimate thing to judge by), but nobody has pointed to anything in that respect. Someone said “she literally did nothing...” - but the voting record proves otherwise, even if we accept it was hyperbole.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:53 am

We are about to enter a winter of public outrage and knee jerk political reactions.

The FSM thing hasn’t gone away despite the governments assertion that they covered this cost by upping Universal Credit by £20 per week and then Sunak last week extending his scheme for those losing jobs or reduced hours. While that was my preferred solution the thing now has a life of its own and it seems quite politically naive by the government now, they’ll get a “cruel Tories” label despite actually increasing handouts to poorer people. What they should have done was get Boris and Williamson to hold a Zoom call to Rashford at the start to get him on board and take credit for a solution.

Then the second outrage I see this morning is that in the Wales lockdown Tesco have locked up women’s sanitary products as “non essential” saying the Welsh government has banned them, which may or may not be a correct interpretation but the Welsh government certainly put in place a confusing set of rules that has led to this outrage.

So I can see a winter of constant front page headlines, death and panic one day, rules outrage the next, as an ongoing cycle. I think I might cancel my newspapers for a bit and stop watching the news.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Burnley Ace » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:53 am

The question of “what did she do for Burnley” isn’t about her voting record and whether she followed the party whip or voted in the way her constituents wanted, which isn’t necessarily what she is obligated to do.

For example, Birtwistle is always claiming to have secured a lot of inward investment to the area and attracted a lot of new businesses, others have said that this new MP has a very good office and did a lot for individuals at the start of lockdown etc.

What will Julie Cooper be remembered for?

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Spijed » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:55 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:53 am
We are about to enter a winter of public outrage and knee jerk political reactions.

The FSM thing hasn’t gone away despite the governments assertion that they covered this cost by upping Universal Credit by £20 per week and then Sunak last week extending his scheme for those losing jobs or reduced hours. While that was my preferred solution the thing now has a life of its own and it seems quite politically naive by the government now, they’ll get a “cruel Tories” label despite actually increasing handouts to poorer people. What they should have done was get Boris and Williamson to hold a Zoom call to Rashford at the start to get him on board and take credit for a solution.

Then the second outrage I see this morning is that in the Wales lockdown Tesco have locked up women’s sanitary products as “non essential” saying the Welsh government has banned them, which may or may not be a correct interpretation but the Welsh government certainly put in place a confusing set of rules that has led to this outrage.

So I can see a winter of constant front page headlines, death and panic one day, rules outrage the next, as an ongoing cycle. I think I might cancel my newspapers for a bit and stop watching the news.
The Sunday Times ran a story about older people being left to die:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -7n62kkbtb

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:10 am

Elizabeth wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:02 pm
I’ll save my empathy for families missing out on a lot more than a Florida holiday Andrew because I am standing on my feet and not my head .
If voting against ‘feeding hungry children’ as you dramatically describe it brings about more of the great community spirit I’ve read about in recent times then that’s not a bad thing. It’s about time!
There has been little or none of it for a long time now. Plenty of blaming governments though.Tory governments I should say for your benefit.
That’s a terrible argument, and doesn’t justify refusing to help hungry children. There are more positive ways to galvanise community spirit than making it the only alternative through government neglect.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:13 am

Spijed wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:15 am
You mean you want a lynch mob?

That very much sounds like what you are proposing.
Don’t be silly of course not, democratic decisions based on serious offences, the public day in & day out decide on a lot of challenging issues personal & non personal, it’s my closing comment on this thread as it’s going off topic & I don’t want to hijack it going on about this.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:15 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:00 am
I'm talking about deciding direct just on the sentences only, I realise we have an appointed government & chosen judiciary, just for really serious offences such as multiple murder.
I think for such serious cases it is normally a whole life order anyway.

The controversial cases, imo, are for things such as death by dangerous driving, grooming, rape etc where sentencing can understandably be controversial, and frankly i don't trust Bob and Jean from the Dog and Duck to be able to judge that as well as justice professionals.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:29 am

ZizkovClaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:15 am
I think for such serious cases it is normally a whole life order anyway.

The controversial cases, imo, are for things such as death by dangerous driving, grooming, rape etc where sentencing can understandably be controversial, and frankly i don't trust Bob and Jean from the Dog and Duck to be able to judge that as well as justice professionals.
Nobody is judging anything that’s not the suggestion by that point the offender has been tried & found guilty, all Bob & Jean need to do is decide upon a multiple selection of punishments ranging from super soft to super hard, it’s possible a multiple murderer might get community service although extremely unlikely, the public decide upon the punishment only that’s there only involvement. The justice professionals are incapable to be perfectly frank the system Is a mess, it’s out of touch with reality.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:57 am

Burnley Ace wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:53 am
The question of “what did she do for Burnley” isn’t about her voting record and whether she followed the party whip or voted in the way her constituents wanted, which isn’t necessarily what she is obligated to do.

For example, Birtwistle is always claiming to have secured a lot of inward investment to the area and attracted a lot of new businesses, others have said that this new MP has a very good office and did a lot for individuals at the start of lockdown etc.

What will Julie Cooper be remembered for?
Birtwistle was part of a government that took millions of pounds out of Burnley’s local government budget. I have no idea how much he brought in, because wherever I’ve googled it, it’s contested. Cooper had a column in the Express, so I’m sure investment she won would be mentioned there. Here’s one from before the election:

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/pol ... own-677553

From a brief look, a lot she did had to do with trying to mitigate austerity - campaigning to stop hospital parking charges, and to prevent the defunding of women’s shelters, etc. You could argue these are small issues, but she might have seen it as having a greater chance of success.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Spijed » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:17 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:29 am
Nobody is judging anything that’s not the suggestion by that point the offender has been tried & found guilty, all Bob & Jean need to do is decide upon a multiple selection of punishments ranging from super soft to super hard, it’s possible a multiple murderer might get community service although extremely unlikely, the public decide upon the punishment only that’s there only involvement. The justice professionals are incapable to be perfectly frank the system Is a mess, it’s out of touch with reality.
How many of the general public know anything about the law?

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:27 pm

It’s frightening that any one of us could be on trial with Jakub on the jury.
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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by TVC15 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:30 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:27 pm
It’s frightening that any one of us could be on trial with Jakub on the jury.
much more likely to be the one in the dock tbh !

Anyway its his last comment on the subject....well nearly his last....possibly

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:37 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:29 am
it’s possible a multiple murderer might get community service although extremely unlikely
Any link to the frankly batshit sentencing guidelines and/or cases where this has been the case?

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:42 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:37 pm
Any link to the frankly batshit sentencing guidelines and/or cases where this has been the case?
I sat on four juries last year, the sentencing appeared very complex but controlled by strict guidelines from what I saw.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:46 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:42 pm
I sat on four juries last year, the sentencing appeared very complex but controlled by strict guidelines from what I saw.
Indeed. Controversial sentences are usually, but not exclusively due to strict sentencing guidelines. You do get the occasional sentence that beggars belief, in which case they can usually be referred for review following public appeal, so in that respect there is some limited scope for public input.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by TVC15 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:48 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:37 pm
Any link to the frankly batshit sentencing guidelines and/or cases where this has been the case?
I know I don't often do what I say but it really probably is better to not get into a debate with him.
He's become a parody of himself and seems to quite like the attention and notoriety of being the board resident nutter.

He loves nothing more than to make stuff up and generalising it as a fact for the whole nation - just like he has done on suggesting somebody could receive community service for murder.
Forget about the fact that magistrates and judges work to a set of sentencing guidelines which I will take a wild guess do not include giving out to a convicted murderer cutting a bit of overgrown council grass !!

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:49 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:27 pm
It’s frightening that any one of us could be on trial with Jakub on the jury.
Don't jurors have to be mentally sound.

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:50 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:48 pm
I know I don't often do what I say but it really probably is better to not get into a debate with him.
He's become a parody of himself and seems to quite like the attention and notoriety of being the board resident nutter.

He loves nothing more than to make stuff up and generalising it as a fact for the whole nation - just like he has done on suggesting somebody could receive community service for murder.
Forget about the fact that magistrates and judges work to a set of sentencing guidelines which I will take a wild guess do not include giving out to a convicted murderer cutting a bit of overgrown council grass !!
Oh i know, im just waiting to see what mental gymnastics he comes up with the try and back that one up. He'd put Simone Biles to shame :lol:

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:51 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:49 pm
Don't jurors have to be mentally sound.
I used to think Presidents had to be.....

Nowadays it seems im not so self assured.......
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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:42 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:51 pm
I used to think Presidents had to be.....

Nowadays it seems im not so self assured.......
Is Trump mentally unstable or just a ****?

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:01 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:42 pm
Is Trump mentally unstable or just a ****?
He's always been a ****, tbf

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Re: Anthony Higginbotham

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:12 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:48 pm
I know I don't often do what I say but it really probably is better to not get into a debate with him.
He's become a parody of himself and seems to quite like the attention and notoriety of being the board resident nutter.

He loves nothing more than to make stuff up and generalising it as a fact for the whole nation - just like he has done on suggesting somebody could receive community service for murder.
Forget about the fact that magistrates and judges work to a set of sentencing guidelines which I will take a wild guess do not include giving out to a convicted murderer cutting a bit of overgrown council grass !!
Someone as to be & thanks for the nomination, I think that assessment is probably based on we don't agree but I'm far too adult to insult back, regarding the community service for the murderer I did say that would be "extremely unlikely" but it would be a super soft option, look we don't agree that much is clear so it's futile persisting, anyway have a good evening & let's hope we get a decent result against the spuds, maybe we could agree on that, I don't think that's asking for too much.

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