Three week total NATIONAL lockdown before it's too late?

[Pimlico_Claret]

Government ignored the SAGE advice of a two week lockdown over October half term, so will now have to implement a four week lockdown throughout all of November.
When will this government learn.

Too pig-headed, thick and priveleged to ever learn this lot.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Government ignored the SAGE advice of a two week lockdown over October half term, so will now have to implement a four week lockdown throughout all of November.
When will this government learn.

But pick a European country who has got it right.

[jrgbfc]

I've been fairly anti lockdown, but even I can accept something needs to be done now. To coin a Stan Ternent phrase a blind man on a galloping horse can see the current measures aren't working.

[CombatClaret]

But pick a European country who has got it right.

No one get it's right in a pandemic which kills people, but a lot of countries have got it righter. And looking to Europe is exactly what we should have done we ignored the crystal ball showing what was in front of us and like Italy in March we ignored it.

[Billy Balfour]

Combat is right. We should have had the lockdown a couple of weeks ago so that the half-term could have been incorporated into it. Now that ship has past and with it another opportunity goes sailing down the Swanee.

[ksrclaret]

Genuine serious question (we've had a few exchanges but im not trying to pick a fight) what would be your strategy to try and live with this virus until either a vaccine is found or something else (herd immunity, t cells, mutation etc) defeats it?

Im not expecting you to be detailed and specific (just a high level general view) and im not looking to try and contradict and poke holes in anything you say but really just trying to understand if we dont lock down whats the plan, what are the rules and what do we hope to see as an outcome

I think we’ve got to keep going with the tiers. Keep business and leisure open as much as possible to keep as many people in work as possible.

Open up Nightingale hospitals fully for either patients with the virus or without, one or the other depending on numbers. Have a massive drive to fully staff them by recruiting retired doctors and nurses and even army medics if that’s an issue. Something similar was done in March wasn’t it? Get as many people as possible to do the admin stuff, freeing the clinicians to focus only on the treating. Keep on with the massive push on hygiene and distancing and try our absolute best to get cases down at the same time.

I know I’ve just made that sound easy, but Christ it has to be worth a go before we shut down and cripple society again. I feel like I’m going mad swimming against the tide here, but I just can’t believe we’re back here again.

[CombatClaret]

I think we’ve got to keep going with the tiers. Keep business and leisure open as much as possible to keep as many people in work as possible.

Open up Nightingale hospitals fully for either patients with the virus or without, one or the other depending on numbers. Have a massive drive to fully staff them by recruiting retired doctors and nurses and even army medics if that’s an issue. Something similar was done in March wasn’t it? Get as many people as possible to do the admin stuff, freeing the clinicians to focus only on the treating. Keep on with the massive push on hygiene and distancing and try our absolute best to get cases down at the same time.

I know I’ve just made that sound easy, but Christ it has to be worth a go before we shut down and cripple society again. I feel like I’m going mad swimming against the tide here, but I just can’t believe we’re back here again.

This is what pandemic fatigue looks like. Advocating to keep doing things that have been shown not work. Keeping case rising = keeping deaths rising deaths, throwing them into makeshift hospitals, staffed by NHS retirees who themselves are in high risk ages now. All to keep shops no one is shopping in open and so we can pretend it's all ok and back to normal.

[Bin Ont Turf]

No one get it's right in a pandemic which kills people, but a lot of countries have got it righter. And looking to Europe is exactly what we should have done we ignored the crystal ball showing what was in front of us and like Italy in March we ignored it.

But they haven't got it 'righter'. Forget the manipulated death list we have had (as a country we love all that), there are EU countries going into full lockdown again and some who have had more in and out regional lockdowns than you could shake a stick at.

However, I do agree we should have been looking at Italy in the early days and been more prepared for it.

[FCBurnley]

I cannot understand why there is no ill feeling against China. We are all blaming our various governments but the real villains are China. It started in China and they were happy for it to spread worldwide. I have my own theory but no absolute proof as to whether it was accidental or deliberate but either way China had everything to gain and nothing to lose

[CombatClaret]

But they haven't got it 'righter'. Forget the manipulated death list we have had (as a country we love all that), there are EU countries going into full lockdown again and some who have had more in and out regional lockdowns than you could shake a stick at.

However, I do agree we should have been looking at Italy in the early days and been more prepared for it.

You are right in that the whole of Europe is being battered by a second wave and no one seems to be escaping it. But even that should have told us something, be prepared both practically and also be prepared to do the unpopular early to save lives and livelihoods further down the line. But we didn't.
I don't like to mix contentious subject but we're seriously suffering from being run by a government that was assembled with the sole focus of Brexit. When a proper crisis reared it's head, one they couldn't start a culture war or mint commemorative coins about they've crumbled. No sign of the PM in all this.

[ElectroClaret]

We'll be in national lockdown next week (Guardian/BBC/ Daily Mail)
Things changing by the hour, apparently.

[CombatClaret]

I cannot understand why there is no ill feeling against China. We are all blaming our various governments but the real villains are China. It started in China and they were happy for it to spread worldwide. I have my own theory but no absolute proof as to whether it was accidental or deliberate but either way China had everything to gain and nothing to lose

Right now there's very little gained by having a go at China, they're making a lot of PPE and very vital stuff. But after this everyone needs to sit down and have proper talk with them. And first on the list will be to stop letting their citizens eat f8cking bats or pangolins or whatever else they snatch from the hills.

[Devils_Advocate]

I think we’ve got to keep going with the tiers. Keep business and leisure open as much as possible to keep as many people in work as possible.

Open up Nightingale hospitals fully for either patients with the virus or without, one or the other depending on numbers. Have a massive drive to fully staff them by recruiting retired doctors and nurses and even army medics if that’s an issue. Something similar was done in March wasn’t it? Get as many people as possible to do the admin stuff, freeing the clinicians to focus only on the treating. Keep on with the massive push on hygiene and distancing and try our absolute best to get cases down at the same time.

I know I’ve just made that sound easy, but Christ it has to be worth a go before we shut down and cripple society again. I feel like I’m gong made swimming against the tide here, but I just can’t believe we’re back here again.

Thank you for giving just an honest and simplistic response. Its good to understand your perspective as whilst we might disagree and challenge each other at the end of the day we all have good intentions.

We can get far more value discussing the intricacies of our views than just opposing our high level cliched positions that dont really represent either of our true individual ideas

I think ive tried to convey my position (if I haven't and if you care I happily will) so whist we might disagree and debate each other at least we will understand and respect the other persons perspective and hopefully have a more nuanced discussion

[ksrclaret]

This is what pandemic fatigue looks like. Advocating to keep doing things that have been shown not work. Keeping case rising = keeping deaths rising deaths, throwing them into makeshift hospitals, staffed by NHS retirees who themselves are in high risk ages now. All to keep shops no one is shopping in open and so we can pretend it's all ok and back to normal.

Well you could have knocked me down with a feather. You’re saying that dealing with a pandemic is imperfect. Do you know, you might be on to something there. Pandemic fatigue? Well yeah, I’d certainly expect so after 8 months.

If only you were as willing to admit, discuss, or even entertain the significant imperfections of totally locking down again.

It’s fine though, most shops are doing less business anyway, so why not just shut them down entirely.

[CombatClaret]

Thank you for giving just an honest and simplistic response. Its good to understand your perspective as whilst we might disagree and challenge each other at the end of the day we all have good intentions.

We can get far more value discussing the intricacies of our views than just opposing our high level cliched positions that dont really represent either of our true individual ideas

I think ive tried to convey my position (if I haven't and if you care I happily will) so whist we might disagree and debate each other at least we will understand and respect the other persons perspective and hopefully have a more nuanced discussion

I may also have been unfair on KSR. While I don't agree with what he thinks we should do he laid it out clearly and reasonably.
I think it's very important just because we're fatigued and it may feel like we're going backward, it's important not to fall for snake oil salesmen and sharltans who tell us what we want to hear or that it's all going to be ok If we'd just listen to them and not the other 99.9% of the worlds doctors and scientists.

[FCBurnley]

Right now there's very little gained by having a go at China, they're making a lot of PPE and very vital stuff. But after this everyone needs to sit down and have proper talk with them. And first on the list will be to stop letting their citizens eat f8cking bats or pangolins or whatever else they snatch from the hills.

Nothing to do with what they eat. 100% to do with them expanding their power worldwide.

[ksrclaret]

Thank you for giving just an honest and simplistic response. Its good to understand your perspective as whilst we might disagree and challenge each other at the end of the day we all have good intentions.

We can get far more value discussing the intricacies of our views than just opposing our high level cliched positions that dont really represent either of our true individual ideas

I think ive tried to convey my position (if I haven't and if you care I happily will) so whist we might disagree and debate each other at least we will understand and respect the other persons perspective and hopefully have a more nuanced discussion

Thanks DA, from what you’ve said on other threads I don’t think we’re miles apart in our views. Some differences for sure, but some commonality too.

As I said, I feel like I’m going mad sometimes as everyone else seems to be going in a different direction on this and I have to ask myself regularly if I’m missing something. Good to know we can have a sensible debate about it though as, believe it or not, it helps to get my thoughts down somewhere.

[CombatClaret]

Nothing to do with what they eat. 100% to do with them expanding their power worldwide.

I agree to some extent, but I'm talking about how the virus got into the human population. But that in itself is linked as the use of exotic animals is part of 'Traditonal Chinese Medicine' which is not at all traditional but invented in the 1960 as a form of cultural propaganda as is actively pushed by China as a form of 'Soft Power'.

[dsr]

Does the next lockdown mean football is cancelled again?

[Devils_Advocate]

I cannot understand why there is no ill feeling against China. We are all blaming our various governments but the real villains are China. It started in China and they were happy for it to spread worldwide. I have my own theory but no absolute proof as to whether it was accidental or deliberate but either way China had everything to gain and nothing to lose

You've shared a touching story about your daughter and the realities of the Covid situation which some people without any facts or evidence are trying to discredit

Im sorry but to see you follow the trumpist attack lines against China without evidence when you have been at the sharpest end of seeing your own offspring suffer from something that those same people label as a hoax / Chinese attack just really saddens me

You've seen first hand (and I really hope you get a happy ending) that the propaganda bullsh*t from the American right is exactly that so please try and see that the Chinese blame game is no different and that that there are probably thousands of good Chinese people in the USA being attacked (verbally and physically) because of this unsubstantiated rubbish being propagated

[TheFamilyCat]

We'll be in national lockdown next week (Guardian/BBC/ Daily Mail)
Things changing by the hour, apparently.

I fully expect it but I really can't see people abiding by the rules like they did in the first lockdown. Too many people don't seem to give a **** anymore.

[ElectroClaret]

Does the next lockdown mean football is cancelled again?

Hopefully we'll be spared that, because there's no crowds and the players and staff are continuously
being tested.

(Actually, if our results don't turn around, we might be glad of the season being cancelled.)

[ElectroClaret]

I fully expect it but I really can't see people abiding by the rules like they did in the first lockdown. Too many people don't seem to give a **** anymore.

Yep, can't disagree with that.

[TheFamilyCat]

Hopefully we'll be spared that, because there's no crowds and the players and staff are continuously
being tested.

(Actually, if our results don't turn around, we might be glad of the season being cancelled.)

Not if they end the season with current positions.

[ElectroClaret]

Not if they end the season with current positions.

Hadn't thought of that. Need a few more points on the board.

[Spijed]

Not if they end the season with current positions.

Doubt they'd do that with so few games played.


Anyway, still playing professional sport in Wales
https://www.bbc.com/sport/amp/wales/54602587

[TheFamilyCat]

Doubt they'd do that with so few games played.


Anyway, still playing professional sport in Wales
https://www.bbc.com/sport/amp/wales/54602587

I wasn't being completely serious.

[FCBurnley]

You've shared a touching story about your daughter and the realities of the Covid situation which some people without any facts or evidence are trying to discredit

Im sorry but to see you follow the trumpist attack lines against China without evidence when you have been at the sharpest end of seeing your own offspring suffer from something that those same people label as a hoax / Chinese attack just really saddens me

You've seen first hand (and I really hope you get a happy ending) that the propaganda bullsh*t from the American right is exactly that so please try and see that the Chinese blame game is no different and that that there are probably thousands of good Chinese people in the USA being attacked (verbally and physically) because of this unsubstantiated rubbish being propagated

It was not meant to be a touching story. It was a warning as to how vicious this virus is. I am totally entitled to my non political views but as expected you somehow turn everything to politics. You are a very sad and warped person who clearly thinks no one else is entitled to an opinion. To the best of my knowledge no good Chinese are being physically or verbally abused. But no doubt you will be able to provide hundreds of unsubstantiated stories

[Devils_Advocate]

It was not meant to be a touching story. It was a warning as to how vicious this virus is. I am totally entitled to my non political views but as expected you somehow turn everything to politics. You are a very sad and warped person who clearly thinks no one else is entitled to an opinion

Not sure where you get this idea where I am not open to people having their own opinion but you are the warped one following a trail of political disinformation against China by the same people who pedal the idea that the very real virus your daughter suffered from is a political hoax

[FCBurnley]

Not sure where you get this idea where I am not open to people having their own opinion but you are the warped one following a trail of political disinformation against China by the same people who pedal the idea that the very real virus your daughter suffered from is a political hoax

You forgot the links to the abuse of good Chinese people in America

[Devils_Advocate]

You forgot the links to the abuse of good Chinese people in America

I really didn't and you've completely lost me with any point you think you're making

[FCBurnley]

I really didn't and you've completely lost me with any point you think you're making

I will look forward to reading the links when you post them. Glad you didn’t forget

[Devils_Advocate]

I will look forward to reading the links when you post them. Glad you didn’t forget

Sadly I think you want me to post links like the one below so you can discredit them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/us/c ... tacks.html

All II will say is like minded people like you would be quick to claim your daughters experience as fake news and ask for links and stories

[Vintage Claret]

I don't like to mix contentious subject but we're seriously suffering from being run by a government that was assembled with the sole focus of Brexit. When a proper crisis reared it's head, one they couldn't start a culture war or mint commemorative coins about they've crumbled. No sign of the PM in all this.

Maybe our PM is busy working on another great slogan with the word 'control' in it, it worked once, (just about) not so much 2nd time, but in the absence of any other plan got to be worth a 3rd attempt, no?

[Inchy]

I think we’ve got to keep going with the tiers. Keep business and leisure open as much as possible to keep as many people in work as possible.

Open up Nightingale hospitals fully for either patients with the virus or without, one or the other depending on numbers. Have a massive drive to fully staff them by recruiting retired doctors and nurses and even army medics if that’s an issue. Something similar was done in March wasn’t it? Get as many people as possible to do the admin stuff, freeing the clinicians to focus only on the treating. Keep on with the massive push on hygiene and distancing and try our absolute best to get cases down at the same time.

I know I’ve just made that sound easy, but Christ it has to be worth a go before we shut down and cripple society again. I feel like I’m going mad swimming against the tide here, but I just can’t believe we’re back here again.

Opening up the nightingales won’t work until you have the staff. With self isolating due to exposure or sickness staff levels are already at a minimum. Getting doctors and nurses out of retirement won’t work because many see themselves as vulnerable. To staff a 20 bedded icu you need about 80 nurses and 20 doctors. Not to mention physios, dieticians etc.

What patients do we use the nightingales for?

Covid patients who need icu are very sick and often in multi organ failure so not appropriate. Surgical patients need a theatre which the nightingales don’t have.

At a push you could put all the elderly patients in the nightingales who will not be taken to icu if they get worse. But I can see the headlines now if you did that.

[Inchy]

Every time read anything about increasing lockdown restrictions the first comment is always “open the nightingales”.

in terms of physical space they have been ready for months. I can’t imagine hospital bosses have
Forgotten about them.

[Murger]

I cannot understand why there is no ill feeling against China. We are all blaming our various governments but the real villains are China. It started in China and they were happy for it to spread worldwide. I have my own theory but no absolute proof as to whether it was accidental or deliberate but either way China had everything to gain and nothing to lose

Because it's fashionable for people to hate their own country and switch off to other country's failing.

Ps: The Tories have gotten this pandemic all wrong from day 1. Airports should have been shut as soon as the virus was coming our way. As an island, we were better positioned than anyone to get ahead of it.

[Grumps]

Because it's fashionable for people to hate their own country and switch off to other country's failing.

Ps: The Tories have gotten this pandemic all wrong from day 1. Airports should have been shut as soon as the virus was coming our way. As an island, we were better positioned than anyone to get ahead of it.

In an ideal world you're right.
But it's not..... What would you have done with the thousands of British subjects abroad? Leave them in Spain, Italy, France, China, USA and anywhere else they happened to be. For how long? 3 months, a year? And where would they have lived? On the streets? Beach?

Great idea, totally unworkable

[Heathclaret]

Can this country afford another lockdown? Will people queue up outside shops in an orderly fashion in the cold and rain or are we going to have riots?

If only people would do as they are advised. After this lockdown, how long until another is required. What a mess.

We are a household of thirteen, kids at school, both parents work, and my mother, who has COPD, insists on going to the supermarket once a week with one of my daughters.

We have followed the guidelines to the letter and none of us have, touch wood, been ill.

Another lockdown will be a disaster.

[FactualFrank]

Coronavirus: PM considering England lockdown next week.

The prime minister is considering a month-long lockdown across England in the hope that measures could be eased before Christmas, the BBC understands.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54756950

[RammyClaret61]

Yesterday the U.K. recorded 24,000 new cases. That’s more than Australia in the whole pandemic. We’ve been in stage 4 lockdown for 4 months. Our highest number of cases per day was just under 800. We're now a a rolling average over 14 days of 2. Lockdown worked. Including closing international arrivals very early on.
All through summer I’ve been reading of friends of mine who’ve just carried on normal, been on holiday. Just yesterday, one family went to the war museum in Manchester for the day, another to Blackpool, another in the Yorkshire dales including a pub meal, another booked a holiday to Spain. What the hell is tier 3 lockdown? A free-for-all to do whatever you like?

[Murger]

I'd like all these goons on social media who call for an indefinite lockdown to explain how we're going to pay for it all (ie: rent/mortgage, utility bills, food etc). We can't keep doing this. There will be no jobs to go back to and no future for our kids.

[Grumps]

There's a table on the BBC website regarding the R rate, something we've been told throughout is the important figure
The north west has the lowest range, which is baffling if the reports of our hospitals being full, and most North West towns in the top twenty of positive daily tests
Which figures are the government using to determine their next move?

[mikeS]

Burnleys case figures have been falling for over a week. Yesterday’s figures show most of Lancashire following suit.
Surely the experts can tell us why this has been the case.

1B9C41F7-0F45-4E9F-B895-B803BF721852.jpeg (201.93 KiB) Viewed 2805 times

[Granny WeatherWax]

Falling but still way too high. The north has never really recovered, when lockdown ended our rates were still higher than the rest of the country.

To find out in the papers again that another lockdown is on the way is testimony to how much of a shambles Johnson and his cronies are.

[Gaia]

Johnson is gonna call the lockdown too late again. Missed the half term opportunity, wasted billions on a totally innefective test and trace. Totally incompetent and should resign.

[Granny WeatherWax]

Johnson is gonna call the lockdown too late again. Missed the half term opportunity, wasted billions on a totally innefective test and trace. Totally incompetent and should resign.

Labour called for a lockdown a few weeks ago but got called an opportunist by Johnson. How many more people has he now killed by his dithering. It was only yesterday Raab was on the news saying they believe in the local tier approach, they’ve really no clue.

[Swizzlestick]

Completely ignored the advice of Sage for the circuit breaker over half term, so here we are on the cusp of writing November off. Starmer was mauled for even daring to suggest it. It’s beyond incompetent.

[FactualFrank]

Johnson is gonna call the lockdown too late again. Missed the half term opportunity

I agree, should have been started at least 2 weeks ago. They aren't learning enough from the first wave.

[Granny WeatherWax]

I agree, should have been started at least 2 weeks ago. They aren't learning enough from the first wave.

A blind man galloping on a horse could see that the tiered approach wouldn’t work, especially given the general disengagement of the nation due to the government’s incompetent handling of the entire situation.