Plumbing advice (Toilet)

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BenWickes
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Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:01 pm

So we think we found the culprit of the leak DC Wat suggested. Or did we? Had a leak from the toilet yesterday into the kitchen below. Constant dripping in the toilet which turned into a constant run of water .
I'm no expert on plumbing. Plumber has been out and solved the leak. However. Should the thingamabob in the cistern keep running ? Or is it supposed to stop once the cistern is full?
In simplistic terms. You flush, water empties and fill through the thingamabob again. It's still running even after the plumber has been. Is it supposed to run constantly? It's not reached any overflow I can find. So the water is going somewhere. :lol:
Any plumbers out there?
Where's the water going? :lol: :?

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by yTib » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:06 pm

most cisterns have an overflow pipe that leads either outside or into a drain.

i had a similar problem not so long since and it was just the rubber washer had perished on the tap. should be easy enough to do it yourself. look on youtube on how to do it.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Bertiebeehead » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:09 pm

Shouldn’t be constantly running, water is probably just going down into the pan. Is there a flapper in the cistern, these sometimes don’t seat correctly allowing water through into the pan.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Bertiebeehead » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:11 pm

Most cistern overflows these days go straight into the pan as well.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by ClaretEngineer » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:12 pm

It’s supposed to stop once full. It’s very possible that like is due to the seal on the flushing mechanism.

When you press the button / pull the lever a plunger lifts to allow the accumulated water to escape and flush the contents of the bowl.

On the end of the plunger is rubber seal (large round and flat).

Is this isn’t sealing properly water can leak past the seal and make its way into the bowl.

You can normally see the trickle of water entering the bowl. You can make sure by placing toilet paper around the inside of the bowl to indicate if this is the problem. Just make sure the bowl
Is dry.

How old are the innards of the flushing mechanism?
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:14 pm

yTib wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:06 pm
most cisterns have an overflow pipe that leads either outside or into a drain.

i had a similar problem not so long since and it was just the rubber washer had perished on the tap. should be easy enough to do it yourself. look on youtube on how to do it.
I looked on Youtube. Normally I'd fix it myself and have fixed a toilet before but ours is just well, not like any on Youtube. I am starting to think you could be right and we have some sort of leak from the rubber washer which leads straight out to the drain.
It's not coming from the overflow itself if that's the case but the bottom washer. Well. The only explanation I can think of as it's no longer leaking but still running. Thanks for your input yTib.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:20 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:12 pm
It’s supposed to stop once full. It’s very possible that like is due to the seal on the flushing mechanism.

When you press the button / pull the lever a plunger lifts to allow the accumulated water to escape and flush the contents of the bowl.

On the end of the plunger is rubber seal (large round and flat).

Is this isn’t sealing properly water can leak past the seal and make its way into the bowl.

You can normally see the trickle of water entering the bowl. You can make sure by placing toilet paper around the inside of the bowl to indicate if this is the problem. Just make sure the bowl
Is dry.

How old are the innards of the flushing mechanism?
It looks like the innards have been there some while. Not seen one like it to be honest. I've fixed a toilet before but this has me bamboozled. As mentioned above and by you. It could be a seal that is the culprit. However there's no water trickling in the actual toilet bowl. Making me think it's just seeping through the seal outside somehow.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by ClaretEngineer » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:23 pm

Do you have an inline isolator valve on the water feed into the bowl?

Let’s have some pictures.

I’m invested in this mystery now.
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by cbx750 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:26 pm

When ours did this it was the diaphragm, easy to change if it is this.

https://plumbsparesdirect.com/store/toi ... agm-washer

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:26 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:23 pm
Do you have an inline isolator valve on the water feed into the bowl?

Let’s have some pictures.

I’m invested in this mystery now.
Just googled inline isolator valve. I assume that is to cut off the water supply looking at those pics on Google. Answer is not. :)

Pics below.
Last edited by BenWickes on Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by bpgburn » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:32 pm

Ours has an internal overflow and every now and then it doesn't switch off after a flush, I hit the flush button a couple of times in quick succession and it releases the diaphragm and stops the flow. Apparently it's a "thing" with internal overflows.
If yours is an internal overflow where it overflows back in the pan, it wont have caused an external leak...

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by The Enclosure » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:38 pm

You need to sort it because if you are on a water meter your bill will go up dramatically...i had this problem where my 6 montjly bill went up and i knew i had not used more water than normal.Found out that water was leaking into the basin....hard to see unless you look carefully.
Last edited by The Enclosure on Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Bosscat » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:39 pm

We have an old high level cistern in our downstairs loo, I found it was leaking down direct into the pan due to a split in the syphon gubbins in the cistern around 6 years ago.

So because this was a system from pre metric pipework and all the threads on the joints etc were old british ones. I dismantled it and rebuilt the old set up, I managed to mend the split in the syphon with waterproof tape and (touchwood) it hasn't leaked since ....

Like you I was wondering why the water was constantly running into the cistern but not out of the overflow 🤔 that was when we noticed a very soft flow into the toilet bowl.

I reckon we will need to replace the toilet and cistern etc at some point, but I felt quite chuffed to sort out the problem and it is still working a number of years later 🙂
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:45 pm

The Enclosure wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:38 pm
You need to sort it because if you are on a water meter your bill will go up dramatically...i had this problem where my 6 montjly bill went up and i knew i had not used more water than normal.Found out that water was leaking into the basin....hard to see unless you look carefully.
Indeed. We think this is the reason our water bill shot up £50.
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:53 pm

Image

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:54 pm

Image

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Bertiebeehead » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:58 pm

Does it stop if you lift the float up?

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:00 pm

Bertiebeehead wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:58 pm
Does it stop if you lift the float up?
No still drips though not as badly. It's us lifting the float up that caused the leak in the kitchen. Definitely a water leak somewhere else though as the water just keeps going.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Bertiebeehead » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:00 pm

Picture of the overflow?

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Zlatan » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:02 pm

did you say you already had a plumber out? if so, did you pay them? and if you did and you did pay them, get them back out as its not fixed!

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by The Enclosure » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:04 pm

Ben
If you switch all of your taps etc off then read your water meter...leave it for a couple of hours without using any water , then read your meter again
.That way you can establish if you have a leak and in your case it is more than likely the internal overflow from the toilet cistern...if you look very carefully you will see the water leaking causing movement in the toilet bowl.
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:04 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:02 pm
did you say you already had a plumber out? if so, did you pay them? and if you did and you did pay them, get them back out as its not fixed!
That's what I'm trying to ascertain. Is it normal for it to run like that. Clearly not having read the above. It's covered in our rent so costs us no extra apart from that bloody water bill.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:06 pm

Bertiebeehead wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:00 pm
Picture of the overflow?
Pic of the water constantly running and a set up of the cistern.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Bertiebeehead » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:08 pm

There looks to be a pipe under the float but can’t quite make it out. It doesn’t look like an internal overflow.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:10 pm

Bertiebeehead wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:08 pm
There looks to be a pipe under the float but can’t quite make it out. It doesn’t look like an internal overflow.
No pipe just a rubber gromit. One of a few that could cause a leak if rotted I guess?

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Zlatan » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:18 pm

BenWickes wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:04 pm
That's what I'm trying to ascertain. Is it normal for it to run like that. Clearly not having read the above. It's covered in our rent so costs us no extra apart from that bloody water bill.
In that case then, the answer is exactly as others have stated - Water should not be running constantly. If you are renting, then get back onto your landlord pronto and request that it is fixed ASAP because of your water bill. I'd also contact your water company to see if they can help or advise. Certainly get a water meter reading too.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:22 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:18 pm
In that case then, the answer is exactly as others have stated - Water should not be running constantly. If you are renting, then get back onto your landlord pronto and request that it is fixed ASAP because of your water bill. I'd also contact your water company to see if they can help or advise. Certainly get a water meter reading too.
Oh don't worry we will. Just a matter of getting them in before lockdown. Don't mind doing it myself as long as I know what the problem is. Probably be cheaper in the long run but just clarifying a few things on here and if anyone knows what the problem might be.
You've all been very helpful. We thought it was the float and to all intents and purposes. It kind of is as the dripping gets less the higher it is. However. That triggered a leak elsewhere. Which suggests all the gromits (rubber) may be leaky.
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Hipper » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:28 pm

In your pics I can't see any over flow pipe. It should come out a bit above your normal water level and lead outside of your house. If there isn't one it must over flow into the pan. I think that yellow contraption will contain the internal overflow mechanism. To check this, whilst leaving the cistern full, empty the pan using a cup and sponge and then see if it slowly fills up.

It all looks very clean and not that old. I would have expected some limescale for old gear - or perhaps you live in a soft water area.

I suspect that the mechanism below the blue piece could contain a diaphragm and filter basket like my Torbeck Side Entry Valve. If a small piece of grit gets into the filter I get an overflow into the pan. I now dismantle and check this every year. It's a right pain but that's how it is! If you need to do this then you do need an inline isolator valve, otherwise you will have to turn off the mains and empty the cold water storage tank (CWST), if you have one. If you don't have a CWST then you'll just need to turn off the mains. As you are a tenant I'd get a plumber to do this as if anything goes wrong.... Inline isolator valves are very useful things for changing tap washers etc..
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by bobinho » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:36 pm

BenWickes wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:20 pm
It looks like the innards have been there some while. Not seen one like it to be honest. I've fixed a toilet before but this has me bamboozled. As mentioned above and by you. It could be a seal that is the culprit. However there's no water trickling in the actual toilet bowl. Making me think it's just seeping through the seal outside somehow.
Can’t help any more than anyone else I’m afraid, but I’d just like to say I LOVE the word “bamboozled”. It even looks good written down, so well done for bringing it to the forum.
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:42 pm

Hipper wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:28 pm
In your pics I can't see any over flow pipe. It should come out a bit above your normal water level and lead outside of your house. If there isn't one it must over flow into the pan. I think that yellow contraption will contain the internal overflow mechanism. To check this, whilst leaving the cistern full, empty the pan using a cup and sponge and then see if it slowly fills up.

It all looks very clean and not that old. I would have expected some limescale for old gear - or perhaps you live in a soft water area.

I suspect that the mechanism below the blue piece could contain a diaphragm and filter basket like my Torbeck Side Entry Valve. If a small piece of grit gets into the filter I get an overflow into the pan. I now dismantle and check this every year. It's a right pain but that's how it is! If you need to do this then you do need an inline isolator valve, otherwise you will have to turn off the mains and empty the cold water storage tank (CWST), if you have one. If you don't have a CWST then you'll just need to turn off the mains. As you are a tenant I'd get a plumber to do this as if anything goes wrong.... Inline isolator valves are very useful things for changing tap washers etc..
Very insightful. Thanks. Apparently we're in a hard water area (79.10 ppm) so it's a mystery. Will check what you've advised. Thanks again.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Quickenthetempo » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:04 pm

Just replace the entire flush system. Not expensive and simple to replace.
No point messing about replacing small parts or seals as usually when one goes it's because it's been in a while and you will likely have problems with the older stuff in the near future.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:08 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:04 pm
Just replace the entire flush system. Not expensive and simple to replace.
No point messing about replacing small parts or seals as usually when one goes it's because it's been in a while and you will likely have problems with the older stuff in the near future.
It has crossed our minds to just buy a new toilet and system.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:20 pm

Upon further inspection following advice above. Water is still draining into the bowl.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Bosscat » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:39 pm

BenWickes wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:20 pm
Upon further inspection following advice above. Water is still draining into the bowl.
Sounds like a syphon problem then Ben (possibly same as ours) ... that would leak direct to the bowl...
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by yTib » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:53 pm

used to love bamboozle on teletext.

once solved a 163er.

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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by Bertiebeehead » Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:13 pm

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Fluidmaster-Pu ... t/p/118744

Change the lot, job done. You might even get a discount.
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Re: Plumbing advice (Toilet)

Post by atlantalad » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:47 pm

In your picture you can see a small flow of water coming out of the feed pipe( blue colour thing). Lift the black arm slightly and see if the water stops. If it doesn't then it either one of two things: a) the rubber diaphragm in the body - white plastic housing to which the blue outlet is attached- has a hole in it or, b) there is some crud on the seating of the orifice preventing the diaphragm from closing the flow. You can dismantle the white housing in situ - but only after turning the water supply off😀.

Edit. erm ! ..pity this site had a good community spirit particularly in these times and also served to be a good font of knowledge on all things ( even plumbing). .... . just seen command for footie only stuff on this site. Also read LCPs quite sensible post wrt NHS burden prior to it being pulled. So, like LCP, think i' ll call it time on here.

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