Are we really doing that badly

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tiger76
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Are we really doing that badly

Post by tiger76 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:35 pm

Ok so we're bottom of the league with 1 point from 6 games, but to put this into perspective we've lost to the teams currently 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th & 11th, and we've picked up a draw at West Brom, no it's not a great start, but it's not the total disaster that some are making out, our season will be decided by the games against the rest of the bottom half teams, and we haven't played many of those sides yet, the next 2 games will give us more of an idea how successful or not our season will be.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:39 pm

Yes we really are doing that badly. Things can change quickly but as it stands so far we've been absolutely hopeless

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:52 pm

In past seasons we'd picked up the odd draw or even a win against the big clubs and even in defeat made it a real slog for them. So far I've seen nothing to show we can even lay a glove on them. Worrying we'll have to rely on beating the teams in our mini-league.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Wile E Coyote » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:55 pm

can't paper over these cracks very easily. Undoubtable, we are doing extremely badly.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by steve1264b » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:56 pm

I think we are 3 points off where we should be, a win v southampton and that is never a gimme.

I just wish we had the international break now before the next two games.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by tarkys_ears » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:58 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:35 pm
Ok so we're bottom of the league with 1 point from 6 games, but to put this into perspective we've lost to the teams currently 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th & 11th, and we've picked up a draw at West Brom, no it's not a great start, but it's not the total disaster that some are making out, our season will be decided by the games against the rest of the bottom half teams, and we haven't played many of those sides yet, the next 2 games will give us more of an idea how successful or not our season will be.
At this rate we'll finish the season on 6 or 7 points.

So I'd say yes.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:59 pm

I've watched the game tonight . We are terrible at present

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Spijed » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:02 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:52 pm
In past seasons we'd picked up the odd draw or even a win against the big clubs and even in defeat made it a real slog for them. So far I've seen nothing to show we can even lay a glove on them. Worrying we'll have to rely on beating the teams in our mini-league.
What about Spurs? We played really well.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:02 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:59 pm
I've watched the game tonight . We are terrible at present
Do you think Ben Mee wil improve things?

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by buzzclarets79 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:05 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:35 pm
Ok so we're bottom of the league with 1 point from 6 games, but to put this into perspective we've lost to the teams currently 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th & 11th, and we've picked up a draw at West Brom, no it's not a great start, but it's not the total disaster that some are making out, our season will be decided by the games against the rest of the bottom half teams, and we haven't played many of those sides yet, the next 2 games will give us more of an idea how successful or not our season will be.
Yes I'm afraid we are. Its the manner of the performances that are showing real cause for concern, leaking goals for fun, not troubling opposition defences, no pace, no creativity and the biggest problem is we will line up same each match as we have very little options in the squad to change anything.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by randomclaret2 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:05 pm

Put it this way, nobody in the division is doing worse.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:06 pm

Spijed wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:02 pm
What about Spurs? We played really well.
Did we heck, Spurs were atrocious and came down to our level for what was an awful game. Sometimes you can get at the good sides and make them struggle but in this case it was nowt to do with us and just that Spurs were crap

If this is the kind of performance you think shows we arent doing as badly as it looks then you are deluded

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:17 pm

This guy doesn't think we are doing "that badly."

Tony Cascarino
Monday November 02 2020, 12.01am, The Times

Sheffield United and Burnley will be fine
I’m not worried about Burnley or Sheffield United going down. There are problems at both clubs — I have concerns about Oli McBurnie being too easy to play against in Sheffield United’s attack — but the managers have the track records to get their teams out of trouble. I think Fulham and West Brom look fairly nailed-on to go down, so the rest of the division is potentially fighting to avoid one place in the bottom three. Sean Dyche deserves more support from Burnley but he’ll keep them safe.

UTC

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Wile E Coyote » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:26 pm

cascarino is a talk spowt slob. his opinion was probably accompanied by an irish bookie voiceover.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by slw » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:28 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:06 pm
Did we heck, Spurs were atrocious and came down to our level for what was an awful game. Sometimes you can get at the good sides and make them struggle but in this case it was nowt to do with us and just that Spurs were crap

If this is the kind of performance you think shows we arent doing as badly as it looks then you are deluded
spot on with that, Spurs didn't get out of first gear, and chelsea just destroyed us. next 2 games we'll see how good or bad we really are.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by jurek » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:28 pm

It could be worse. We could have one less point.
But really not much worse.
But that also means it could get better.

Hope so.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:30 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:17 pm
This guy doesn't think we are doing "that badly."
After predicting us to go down every season and getting egg on their faces I think most of pundits have shifted over the last couple seasons to the automatic response 'Burnley will be fine'.

We got a mention on the Totally Football podcast in response to MOTD trotting out the 'they'll be fine' for Sheffield and ourselves. They said the very opposite, it's true based on our history but you need to properly look under the hood this season and you'll see it's a very different situation.
Pointed out never has there been so much discord both on and off the pitch, Dyche calling for increased spending and getting even less than ever, unconstructive takeover rumours. A transfer window culminating in a third choice keeper and replacing Hendrick with Stevens.
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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:35 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:02 pm
Do you think Ben Mee will improve things?
I expect Ben Mee's return, our captain, will improve things. It's not about how well Kevin Long has played. Kevin has not let himself or the team down. However, it's about how all the team perform and getting Ben Mee back is a big part of getting the team to perform.

Of course, there are other things that also need sorting out. The biggest is the ownership of the club, strongly linked to covid-19 impact on the club's finances, which in turn results in possibility of players leaving, which is unsettling both for the players who may leave and the others who also need the stability of a settled team and squad.

I don't worry too much about Sean Dyche leaving. I get the impression Sean Dyche knows he must stay and sort things out and all in his own best interest. If reports that his "Premier League" bonus is paid in January, then he needs to stay at least until then. Sean Dyche has experienced the downside of new owners at Watford. I expect he's aiming to do everything he can to ensure that any new owners at Turf Moor will want to retain Sean Dyche - and he's ready to make the case to them that they need to give him the money to invest in the team, his starting XI. I'd expect he's already trying out a few drafts of the power point slides that will make the case that the owners will get more success, with less money, by giving Sean Dyche the money to spend - rather than letting Sean Dyche go and bringing in a new head coach (or manager), that will cost them more and have a lesser prospect of success. Staying on, with money to spend, will also be Sean Dyche's path to showing to other clubs that he can build a team when there are funds to invest, thus enhance his cv and make him more attractive for that next step on his Premier League football manager career.

UTC

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by NewClaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:44 pm

WBA aside, we’ve had some tough games. Games I wouldn’t expect us to win. We’ve played poorly but with injuries and a lot going on outside the team.

So much of sport is about confidence and positivity. Signing players isn’t just about the actual signing itself, it’s about developing the right environment - the feeling that the club is moving forward.

Sadly, I feel this is as much to blame as the injuries, so the Board must take some responsibility. I think the players and Sean have what it takes to get out of this but it needs some positivity around the club. And quickly.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by jdrobbo » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:52 pm

We’re doing poorly but have had a tough start. Ben Mee will galvanise us and Cork is a big loss.

If I could roll back the clock, I’d have stuck with Jimmy Dunne alongside Tarks, instead of Long. He was thrown in and I think he showed promise in difficult circumstances. Long had a good game against Spurs but truth be told, it wouldn’t have done us any harm to have gone with a partnership that would’ve been far better balanced.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by BFC123 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:04 am

Individual mistakes costing us, as tends to be the case when we go on a bad run, but had Wood scored the header against West Brom (which he should have done) and if Kane hadn’t got back to clear Tarkowski’s header off the line about 3 minutes before they scored we could be looking at being on 6 points.
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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by kritichris » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:16 am

Six games in, the table doesn't lie. Looks like we need Nigel Pearson, the man who can really work miracles.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by tiger76 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:20 am

BFC123 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:04 am
Individual mistakes costing us, as tends to be the case when we go on a bad run, but had Wood scored the header against West Brom (which he should have done) and if Kane hadn’t got back to clear Tarkowski’s header off the line about 3 minutes before they scored we could be looking at being on 6 points.
Good point BFC123 yes the individual errors are killing us, even on Saturday we were probably having our best spell of the game, before sloppy play led to the 2nd and also 3rd goals, at this level even seemingly small mistakes will be ruthlessly punished, and we're making at least 1 or 2 in every game, we need to cut those basic mistakes out, and we'll have a much better chance of picking up points in the next couple of games, things can turn very quickly in this league, just look at Everton as a case in point, they were flying in the first 4 games, suddenly they are hit with injuries/suspensions, and doubts over their keeping situation, and they only take 1 point from 9, and have looked a very ordinary team in those 3 games. Villa also 4 straight wins, defence seemingly solid, and then they ship 7 goals in 2 home games, and look a shambolic outfit. Once we get that 1st victory under our belts, then the players might start relaxing and growing in confidence again, as ever in these situations it's getting that 1st victory that is proving difficult.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Vegas Claret » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:53 am

we are dreadful, Barnes and Wood look completely ineffective and we played miles better constructive football when Jay started.
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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by jojomk1 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:09 am

NewClaret wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:44 pm
WBA aside, we’ve had some tough games. Games I wouldn’t expect us to win. We’ve played poorly but with injuries and a lot going on outside the team.

So much of sport is about confidence and positivity. Signing players isn’t just about the actual signing itself, it’s about developing the right environment - the feeling that the club is moving forward.

Sadly, I feel this is as much to blame as the injuries, so the Board must take some responsibility. I think the players and Sean have what it takes to get out of this but it needs some positivity around the club. And quickly.
So if you wouldn't expect us to beat Southampton and Newcastle where are the wins coming from. Both sides may have had a decent start but both played pretty poorly against us yet won !

The football we have played so far has been quite frankly dire and yet the manager persists with his hoof ball tactics to two strikers who both look a yard off the pace with little sign of being able to hold up the ball

If you want to create "the right environment" and get some "positivity around the club" then look to the manager (the directors don't even go down to the club apart from maybe matches)

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by NewClaret » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:44 am

jojomk1 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:09 am
So if you wouldn't expect us to beat Southampton and Newcastle where are the wins coming from. Both sides may have had a decent start but both played pretty poorly against us yet won !

The football we have played so far has been quite frankly dire and yet the manager persists with his hoof ball tactics to two strikers who both look a yard off the pace with little sign of being able to hold up the ball

If you want to create "the right environment" and get some "positivity around the club" then look to the manager (the directors don't even go down to the club apart from maybe matches)
Not saying you don’t hope to beat Southampton or Newcastle, but I never expect to beat either. Do you? They’re both more established PL clubs than us. They’re definitely clubs you hold out more hope of beating, but certainly not gimme’s. In normal times you might get points from one or the other and some bonus points from the top teams we’ve played, but we have injuries and are well out of form.

Even the clubs we might expect to beat normally will be looking at us now & saying we’re their for the taking when they look at our league position. It’s a bit of a viscous circle we find ourselves in now.

I do agree Dyche has played his part. I think post lockdown his motivational strategy was “its us against all the odds” whilst talking continuously of the need for strengthening. But in doing so he pitched himself against the Board. That in itself created some negative media we could’ve avoided. He, quite rightly in my opinion, expected more backing but since it hasn’t come that strategy has now backfired. You could hear him subtly changing position towards the end of the window - “I believe in this squad”, “we’re a good squad when injury free”, etc - but continually motivating a shrinking group of players to beat the odds is an impossible ask of him.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Dark Cloud » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:48 am

Yes, we are, BUT we have to be honest and say the S'oton goal was somewhat fortuitous as it was ultimately a ricochet and their goalie made a worldy of a save from Taylor's shot and we could easily have got a point (deserved or not) AND the West Brom goalie did exactly the same from Barnes where we could easily have won and deservedly so. Those 2 miraculous saves are making a huge difference right now.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by AlargeClaret » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:48 am

Well yes we are “ doing that badly “ taking little or nothing from “ normal” winnable games . Though with our horrific injury list at start of season and playing 3 top teams and players getting back I genuinely believe “ we’re not that bad” Gonna be a bumpy ride till early Jan but I really believe the ship will be a little steadier then and with the takeover good times could yet roll

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by MACCA » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:03 am

No we arent doing too badly to be fair, if we can carry on this sort of form we can certainly set some new records.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Dark Cloud » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:18 am

We're not doing quite so badly as Palace who about 3 years ago lost every one of their opening 9 games (including at the Turf) and still survived reasonably easily!! I keep clinging on to that!!

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by box_of_frogs » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:29 am

Worst start to a season we’ve ever had.

I’d say that’s not good. :?

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Quicknick » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:34 am

box_of_frogs wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:29 am
Worst start to a season we’ve ever had.

I’d say that’s not good. :?
Ever?

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:36 am

We could cast kin dads army from some of our fans.
I’m glad I do not have to go to war with some of you lot for backup.
Bluebottles

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by groove » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:57 am

We're missing Hendrick, like most of us on here who know what we're on about, knew we would.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by MACCA » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:57 am

Quicknick wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:34 am
Ever?
Yes I believe so.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Murger » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:36 am

Having Mee back will help, but it's the other end of the pitch we're struggling. Zero creativity. Playing Barnes instead of Jay is mind boggling to me.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:39 am

I always try to judge us by performances rather than results, as you can always get freak results.
On performances we're doing crap. Bottom of the league is where we deserve to be at present.
Still time to turn it around, on a positive note, but we need players to up the anti. I can't fault the efforts, but it takes a big pair of balls to stay calm and keep believing in yourself.

The service up to the front men has been woeful at times, and in the absence of JBG or Brady we need to get Taylor and Lowts to commit forward more, try and run the overlaps, and get the ball in the box first time, no fannying around and going backwards.

It's fixable, but time isn't on our side.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:13 am

Dark Cloud wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:18 am
We're not doing quite so badly as Palace who about 3 years ago lost every one of their opening 9 games (including at the Turf) and still survived reasonably easily!! I keep clinging on to that!!
Palace took action though & got rid of de boer & the fortunes changed thereon, I'm not suggesting changing manager, in our case though I don't think much can be changed, arguably deploy different tactics offensively & hope SD changes what little he can change with the personnel at his disposal.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by LordBob » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:23 am

I don't know how bad or how good we are the 'no crowd' scenarios are making the whole thing surreal I'm trying hard to enjoy the sport available but I'm struggling. I love snooker and darts and the governing bodies are doing their best to give us something but without audiences there is so much missing, the oohs and ahhs when a easy shot is missed the acclaim after a brilliant shot or dart thrown it's so much a part of the games I just pray the sports we knew survives.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Hipper » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:26 am

Dark Cloud wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:18 am
We're not doing quite so badly as Palace who about 3 years ago lost every one of their opening 9 games (including at the Turf) and still survived reasonably easily!! I keep clinging on to that!!
Palace completely out played us that day, gifting us a goal and employing Benteke to miss copious chances. It was clear they had some quality.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Spijed » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:30 am

Ultimately, it's how well you defend in the Prem that will determine whether you stop up or not.

Norwich were doomed because they couldn't keep clean sheets whereas Sheff United were defensively solid last season.

If you keep a clean sheet you are guaranteed at least a point and possibly all three. However, even if you score you are not guaranteed to get any. That's the all important thing.

That's what's going to determine whether we survive or not because if we nick a goal at the other end without playing well we'll always be in with a chance of winning games.

Our success has been based on how strong we are at the back, not how good we are up front.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Conroysleftfoot » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:43 am

Spijed wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:30 am
Ultimately, it's how well you defend in the Prem that will determine whether you stop up or not.

Norwich were doomed because they couldn't keep clean sheets whereas Sheff United were defensively solid last season.

If you keep a clean sheet you are guaranteed at least a point and possibly all three. However, even if you score you are not guaranteed to get any. That's the all important thing.

That's what's going to determine whether we survive or not because if we nick a goal at the other end without playing well we'll always be in with a chance of winning games.

Totally agree, Our defensive solidarity is going to be the key.
Our success has been based on how strong we are at the back, not how good we are up front.

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Woodleyclaret » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:54 am

No we are on the up UTC

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by jojomk1 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:15 am

Well we can't go further down at the moment

At least not until the end of the season :)

The point about a good defensive record is fair, but you still have to score goals (any goals) to win a game

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Re: Are we really doing that badly

Post by Dark Cloud » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:22 am

Hipper wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:26 am
Palace completely out played us that day, gifting us a goal and employing Benteke to miss copious chances. It was clear they had some quality.
Agreed, but it's also clear that we've got some quality AND if we can get Mee back we'll certainly have more defensively. And, as I said above, we've been on the wrong end of two wonder saves imo. One against Saints and one against WBA and they have been crucial in the current points reckoning.

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