Greg Clarke resigns

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huw.Y.WattfromWare
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:24 pm

dougcollins wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:57 pm
I suppose if you treat everyone the same you'd have no need to use any terminology?
I am an Earthling. In any situation skin colour would not be on my radar for how to act or react.
What if you witness a crime and the perpetrator is identifiable as of black/ brown/ far east / middle eastern appearance? Are you just suppose to identify them by clothing or actually assist the police in making a quicker arrest.

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Spiral » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:48 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:49 pm
Fair enough. It just ticks me off that you don’t know from one day to the next what expression is allowed. I never want to say anything racist but you end up scared to speak, not knowing who will be offended.
I get that a lot of folks are too busy in their lives putting food on the dinner table to be concerned with progressive zeitgeist verbiage, or what words are considered to be more appropriate and nuanced than others, and through no fault of their own some folks will only rarely (if ever) spend enough time around black people, gay people, trans people etc to spark up any conversation beyond small talk - and unfortunately because of that limited interaction, one's idea of a [insert group] person might more likely be informed by stereotype rather than the full account of their existence. But in all honesty you won't meet any resistance or hostility from, for lack of a better term, the wokies (in real life, at least, ignoring all the screeching on social media) if you're sincere in any enquiry or attempt to understand why some words are considered harmful.

There's no harm, nor shame in asking what language is preferable if you're sincere in asking. Remember that tabloid newspapers, websites and radio shows have a vested interest in keeping people angry - this is how they keep their audience's attention, and it's crucial to their business model - so they invent things to get angry about like political correctness. But trying to use more considered language is fundamentally about respect. Never forget that. When someone says "you shouldn't say that", they aren't going out of their way to put you down, they're cautioning against language which is disrespectful.

It's important to recognise they aren't so much attacking you as defending someone else's honour. In short, assuming you're not asking the question in order to incite a spat or have a rant about 'the blacks' or 'the gays', there's no harm in asking if a word is offensive, honestly. Don't let the kind of tabloid rhetoric which becomes ingested into society and our day-to-day conversations convince you that you're being attacked, because you truly are not. To my mind, strength of character is about being humble enough to recognise when you don't know something, and emotionally mature enough to confront it without feeling insecure. Being defensive and lashing out at the world rather than confronting the reality of the world (i.e. accepting the fact that some words are offensive), rather than being practical about it, is just a stressful, damaging, unhappy place to be in, I think.
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:49 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:40 pm
I know perfectly well what derogatory means. Of course he’s being disrespectful by suggesting that homosexuals are making a lifestyle choice. I agree that his disrespect is probably borne of ignorance rather than anything more sinister, but that still doesn’t make it right. Someone in his role has no excuse to be ignorant of such matters.
That I agree with

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Hozz » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:54 pm

I’m not of colour.

Have I offended myself?
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Boss Hogg » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:43 pm

You were right to ask someone else then you can find out if they were offended on your behalf.

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:41 am

Boss Hogg wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:27 pm
People are offended by everything nowadays. This generation wouldn’t have survived a world war. They would have been more bothered about what people said. Haviing said that there are too many dinosaurs running the game so not sure it’s any great loss. Gordon Taylor is the worst of the lot imo.
Spot on, it’s actually got to the point where some people are frightened to speak if you don’t say anything you can’t offend anybody, some people are just purposely waiting to jump on the slightest thing & make a drama out of nothing.

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Spiral » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:31 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:41 am
Spot on, it’s actually got to the point where some people are frightened to speak if you don’t say anything you can’t offend anybody, some people are just purposely waiting to jump on the slightest thing & make a drama out of nothing.
We can both agree that the N-word is vulgar and shouldn't be used to describe black people, right? And I'd hope we can agree that not using it is a good thing? If so, then we agree in principle with the notion of being deliberate, even moderate with our language. So it just comes down to the degree. Let me digress, but first, a question.

What kind of things are people afraid to say, Jakub? Would it not better to try to understand why folks might be upset with certain phrases or words rather than to consign oneself to being mute out of fear of upsetting folks, and if so, can you see how not talking and not interacting might be counter-productive? Let me just quickly establish what I mean when I use the word ignorant: it doesn't mean 'rude', it's not a moral judgement, I don't mean it as a pejorative term, I use it according to its truest definition, from its Latin derivation meaning "not-knowing". I've been ignorant about all sorts of things throughout my life. I still am, and there are things I'm no doubt ignorant about right now where events in my life haven't yet caused me to confront my ignorance. By the very nature of "not-knowing" I don't even know what I don't know until I know just about enough to know that I don't know, you know? And so I remain in ignorance until I get to the point, whatever that is, where it is realised. If ignorance is borne of a lack of interaction, and people withhold from interaction or engagement out of fear, can you see how ignorance coupled with insecurity or fear of upsetting folks might beget further ignorance? Can you see how it takes a bit of boldness and confidence to admit to not knowing, and that that boldness, that humility which allows one to admit to not knowing is the thing that will allow one to overcome one's ignorance?

The simple truth is that whether you or I like it or not, some people are going to be offended by certain words, stereotypes, ideas etc. They have that freedom as much as you and I have the freedom to say 'ugly' things - within our legal framework, of course. It's a matter of choice, and I believe character, how you deal with that: you can reject it all and turn it back on the offended, claiming you're now offended that they are offended, which is fine, not my jam, but you have that right, however I'm not sure how that actually helps you or anyone else at all. Or you can do what in my opinion is the more practical thing and try to be receptive to ideas about why such and such a turn of phrase is offensive, harmful, or even dangerous, because the cost to you or me of moderating our language is miniscule compared to the damage and harm it can cause by not being considerate. The cost of moderation (or you could call it civility) is so small in fact that I can only be led to believe that persisting in using offensive language in the knowledge of the offence it is causing is a deliberate and purposeful attempt to cause harm, and complaints of the variations seen on here about people being too easily offended are tantamount to a conscious attempt to downplay the harm such words, stereotypes and ideas can cause, which is quite the ballsy and if I may say, arrogant stance considering those people almost unanimously are not the ones such offensive terms are aimed at. By claiming 'this word is not offensive', people using offensive language make a presumption to the right to speak for the target of a slur or a stereotype no different to the presumption for which they deride social justice warriors. By following this logic, to be offended on someone else's behalf is no different than to claim a person is being unreasonable in being offended, because it incorrectly presumes the right to legitimately understand the target, even when the target is demonstrably offended, justly or otherwise. Being offended on someone else's behalf, and claiming people are too easily offended are two sides of the same coin: they both presume a small domain over a part of the psychology of the person the words are aimed at. This is why we delegate to the people at whom the language is aimed and let them determine what is offensive and what is not. As I've mentioned above, nobody really takes issue with ignorance in and of itself; the defiance and persistence in using offensive language while in possession of the knowledge of the nature of an offensive word is a much greater problem, for is typically used to assert dominance - perceived or real - over others.

Clarke's firing isn't an excoriation of his character as a human being, but rather a statement if you will on his lack of competence as a chairman and in his ability to fulfil the duties demanded of him by the role. He's useless, not hateful. But in certain walks of life, especially those where people have a degree of decision making power, folks are held to a higher standard. Surely we can agree on the importance of this?
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Spiral » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:32 am

I swear to God if this thread gets deleted after typing all that out I'm going to scream so loud it'll wake the dead!
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snapcrackleandpop
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by snapcrackleandpop » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:56 am

Rowls wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:49 pm
Because one is not offensive and one is highly offensive. Durrr.

And Lord help anyone who can’t tell the difference.
Ah ok now I get it, thanks.

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by MRG » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:02 am

The FA should potentially get the Society of Black Lawyers to investigate him

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by MRG » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:04 am

Spiral wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:31 am
We can both agree that the N-word is vulgar and shouldn't be used to describe black people, right?
Unless you are a black person, then the word is a cool way to address your friend

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Boss Hogg » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:14 am

MRG wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:04 am
Unless you are a black person, then the word is a cool way to address your friend
Always found this strange.

Devils_Advocate
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:19 am

Boss Hogg wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:14 am
Always found this strange.
It's actually quite normal behaviour to try and take back control of a word that other people use against you in a negative way

You can see it the way we call ourselves the Dingles or sing about playing anti football

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:22 am

Boss Hogg wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:14 am
Always found this strange.
Young men from Pakistan do the same with the P word.

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by dpinsussex » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:07 am

Tyrone Mings is now suggesting we need a black chairman of the FA.

Personally I couldn't care less about the colour of their skin. I just want them to do a good job for the good of football.

aggi
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by aggi » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:08 am

Rowls wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:49 pm
Because one is not offensive and one is highly offensive. Durrr.

And Lord help anyone who can’t tell the difference.
Except this isn't your nan not quite knowing what to say, this is the Head of the FA, an organisation with many issues around racism, speaking to the Government about diversity. Not knowing the correct "terminology" makes him appear lazy at best, disinterested at worst.

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by keith1879 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:44 am

Rowls wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:05 pm
Don’t think that would hold up, Doug.

Why should you never be able to use terminology simply because you weren’t aware of the particular phrase du jour?

By your logic, nobody who wasn’t racist but didn’t know the terminology would be able to discuss the subject.

The only people who could discuss the matter would be those who knew the terminology (whether they were racist or not) or people who were openly racist.
He said "I suppose if you treat everyone the same you'd have no need to use any terminology?"

How can anyone disagree with that?

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by SalouClaret » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:55 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:56 am
Congratulations!

You've won this weeks, The Robert Peston Brevity and Self Aggrandisement Award.

🥇


Congratulations! You've won prick of the week, again! Unprecedented stuff!


Lock the thread CT. This board is on it's arse.
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Billy Balfour
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Billy Balfour » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:07 am

SalouClaret wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:55 am
Lock the thread CT. This board is on it's arse.
Not heard a peep out of some of these people for over a week and now they're back like a swarm of flies on a fresh piece of dog poo.
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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by SalouClaret » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:20 am

Billy Balfour wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:07 am
Not heard a peep out of some of these people for over a week and now they're back like a swarm of flies on a fresh piece of dog poo.


Absolutely. I wonder why? 🤔

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:22 am

SalouClaret wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:55 am
Congratulations! You've won prick of the week, again! Unprecedented stuff!


Lock the thread CT. This board is on it's arse.
Don't be too harsh, he's learnt a new word.

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:25 am

How long before the usual suspects get this thread locked?
A pity.
Thanks for a long, but well thought out and constructed post Spiral.

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Re: Greg Clarke resigns

Post by Rowls » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:31 am

keith1879 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:44 am
He said "I suppose if you treat everyone the same you'd have no need to use any terminology?"

How can anyone disagree with that?
Easy. We all need to use language to communicate so all need to “use terminology”.

Not being a racist doesn’t mean you don’t need to use language.

Locked