Belgium vs England

[FactualFrank]

Against the better teams we concede at least one a game through this brainless insistence on playing out from the back.

We do pass it a lot more accurately and quicker than previous generations of England squads, however overall, with the defence England have, they should be getting it into midfield at the earliest opportunity. They should be there to defend and then get the ball into midfield straight away every time they have the ball.

I think the likes of Grealish could do a job in midfield, tracking back to collect the ball. It then allows 3 of the likes of Kane, Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho, Sterling to take the front 3 spots.

[Buxtonclaret]

Sees it like Dyche

Southgate's club management history doesn't even begin to compare with SD's.
Gibson gave him loads of leeway at Boro. Far more than most managers get these days. Plus a transfer budget Sean can only dream of.
Southgate took them down anyway.
He was found out.
He's being ruthlessly found out again now, at international level.
Southgate's biggest asset is that he ideally fits that media face the FA always seem to require and, doesn't rock their boat.
The fact he's a less than average manager is incidental.

[TheFamilyCat]

Southgate's club management history doesn't even begin to compare with SD's.
Gibson gave him loads of leeway at Boro. Far more than most managers get these days. Plus a transfer budget Sean can only dream of.
Southgate took them down anyway.
He was found out.
He's being ruthlessly found out again now, at international level.
Southgate's biggest asset is that he ideally fits that media face the FA always seem to require and, doesn't rock their boat.
The fact he's a less than average manager is incidental.

Yet he is (arguably) England's most successful manager for 30 years.

[superdimitri]

So who's the answer? Not that Southgate will go.

Best chance of that is after the next finals I reckon and it would probably be him stepping down.

I agree with his youth mantra. Trying to get a group of young players together similar to how Germany got success. The problem for us is our young talent just isn't good enough.

[FactualFrank]

The problem for us is our young talent just isn't good enough.

I think they very much are good enough. The best individual youngsters I can remember as an England fan. It's the tactics that Southgate hasn't yet figured out properly and our defence is a very very weak link.

[Spijed]

our defence is a very very weak link.

When people talk about how much quality the likes of TAA and Trippier have going forward they overlook how average both players are when it comes to defending.

In Liverpool's set up Alexander-Arnold doesn't have much defending to do but when a half-decent winger runs at him he seems powerless to stop any player going past him. That's how poor he is.

And those problems are only magnified when he is expected to do more defending for England against far better opponents.

[Buxtonclaret]

Yet he is (arguably) England's most successful manager for 30 years.

Lots, myself included, pointed out that the way the draw opened up for him on the way to his World Cup semi run was the stuff an internationl manager dreams of.
We got beaten by a decent, but hardly awe- inspiring side.

[Dyched]

Most posters on this thread sound like bitter Leeds/West Ham knobs who expect their team to win everything.

[SalisburyClaret]

It’s time to bring back Sam Allardyce - his 100% win record will never get beaten!

[Devils_Advocate]

Lots, myself included, pointed out that the way the draw opened up for him on the way to his World Cup semi run was the stuff an internationl manager dreams of.
We got beaten by a decent, but hardly awe- inspiring side.

Aye imagine getting a tough draw against Cameroon in the Quarter Finals, now that would be difficult especially as African football was such a great standard back then

[Buxtonclaret]

Aye imagine getting a tough draw against Cameroon in the Quarter Finals, now that would be difficult especially as African football was such a great standard back then

There's only one Roger Milla!
One Roger Millaaaaa......

[tiger76]

Aye imagine getting a tough draw against Cameroon in the Quarter Finals, now that would be difficult especially as African football was such a great standard back then

Aye that was a Cameroon side that beat the reigning champions Argentina in the opening game, and topped a group also containing Romania, and the USSR who had finished as runners-up 2 years previous, aye really weak opponents.

And I wonder how GS would have fared in a group with Egypt, Ireland and the Netherlands, all decent sides at that time.

Remind me who did we beat of note in Russia I've forgotten.

[huw.Y.WattfromWare]

Folk have forgot, yet again, that England blew the lead in the WC semi and in the ENL semi.
Good managers don’t lose leads in international football. He isn’t one.

Sterling, Kane, Rashford make our best front 3, with DC-L ready to come off the bench.
I’ve still seen nothing from Sancho to justify even a £50m transfer yet alone what ManU were ready to pay. Making your name in the Bundesliga seems to be the way to go. Brilliant games but nowhere near PL standard.

[Dyched]

All those saying

Trippier, TAA, Henderson, Dier, Rice, Sancho, Winks, Gomez, Maguire, Mings aren’t good enough, who’d play instead?

Only play players “in form”. Come on then? Which English players haven’t been picked during this international break that have been in form during the opening months of the season?

All those saying he doesn’t know his best team. Really? So you think it’s a good idea just to play his first 11 and not look at other players? Pre Season for club managers is to get players fit and up to speed for the upcoming season. Friendlies at international level are to have a closer look at players and see if they fit the system you want to play.

He picks his system he wants to play based on his first choice 11. He them takes a closer look at other players, players that are “in form (DCL, Grealish, Coady, etc) and plays them in the system. It’d be a stupid just to pick the same 11, come tournament time injuries happen and there’s nobody with experience.

[FactualFrank]

All those saying

Trippier, TAA, Henderson, Dier, Rice, Sancho, Winks, Gomez, Maguire, Mings aren’t good enough, who’d play instead?

Only play players “in form”. Come on then? Which English players haven’t been picked during this international break that have been in form during the opening months of the season?

All those saying he doesn’t know his best team. Really? So you think it’s a good idea just to play his first 11 and not look at other games? Pre Season for club managers is to get players fit and up to speed for the upcoming season. Friendlies at international level are to have a closer look at players and see if they fit the system you want to play.

He picks his system he wants to play based on his first choice 11. He them takes a closer look at other players, players that are “in form (DCL, Grealish, Coady, etc) and plays them in the system. It’d be a stupid just to pick the same 11, come tournament time injuries happen and there’s nobody with experience.

It's like when somebody said Henderson isn't international class - which means playing for your country. I can't think of any English player (and you'd need 2 as one would be a squad player), better in the holding role. Philips certainly isn't better than Henderson, so who else is there?

[Dyched]

It's like when somebody said Henderson isn't international class - which means playing for your country. I can't think of any English player (and you'd need 2 as one would be a squad player), better in the holding role. Philips certainly isn't better than Henderson, so who else is there?

Yep, I read that, daft.

On this thread we’ve had TAA is poor, Henderson isn’t international level (PL and CL winning captain level mind), past threads Gomez is crap. I know VVD is great and Allison too but to have only 2 defenders who can defend is remarkable when blitzing the PL.

[nyclaret]

My England team would be:

Pope
TAA Gomez Maguire Chilwell
Henderson
Foden Grealish
Sancho Kane Sterling

[FactualFrank]

My England team would be:

Pope
TAA Gomez Maguire Chilwell
Henderson
Foden Grealish
Sancho Kane Sterling

I doubt I'd deviate much from that. The defence is weak, regardless of who you select really, but I like the midfield/attack. The phrase, attack is the best form of defence, is especially true where England are concerned.

[Devils_Advocate]

Aye that was a Cameroon side that beat the reigning champions Argentina in the opening game, and topped a group also containing Romania, and the USSR who had finished as runners-up 2 years previous, aye really weak opponents.

And I wonder how GS would have fared in a group with Egypt, Ireland and the Netherlands, all decent sides at that time.

Remind me who did we beat of note in Russia I've forgotten.

We were rubbish up until the Germany game in 1990. We drew with Ireland who were made up of 3rd rate English players, we clung on to a boring 0-0 against Holland and just about beat an Egypt side who would struggle with todays Andora and had to rely on a Mark Wright header worthy of the lower leagues

If you want to know what an easy ride is then 4 out of 6 3rd place teams qualified out of the group stages

We played a decent Belgium side and was outplayed and were holding on to get to penalties when we scored with last kick of the game

Then Cameroon who were not a good side but just had a good tournament. Even the English players have admitted they thought it was a bye into the semi's. We very nearly lost needing a penalty towards the end of the game draw level and finally winning with a pen in extra time

Against the Germans we we brilliant and that game is what everyone remembers

My point is this team and manager are held up as greats when in fact we were pretty dire and lucky to make it to the semis whilst Southgate gets rediculous hate when his record is very good and better than Bobby Robsons

If you want to know what a clueless England looks like go and watch our 1990 qualification campaign cos it makes Southgates team look like the great Brazilian teams

[tiger76]

My England team would be:

Pope
TAA Gomez Maguire Chilwell
Henderson
Foden Grealish
Sancho Kane Sterling

Not a bad shout that, we are crap at defending, so we may as well play to our strengths which is the front 4/5 causing other teams problems, It probably won't be enough to win the Euro's, but at least it'll create some excitement.

In this NL group England have played 270 minutes against Denmark & Iceland, and have the grand total of last minute penalty to show for their efforts, that's not acceptable by anyone's standards.

A midfield 2 of Foden/Grealish should at least be able to keep the ball, and create chances for the front 3, I'm not convinced that Sancho should be part of that forward trio, I'd be putting DCL or Ings ahead of him in the pecking order, but the rest look much better balanced than Southgate's current flops.

[FactualFrank]

Not a bad shout that, we are crap at defending, so we may as well play to our strengths which is the front 4/5 causing other teams problems, It probably won't be enough to win the Euro's, but at least it'll create some excitement.

In this NL group England have played 270 minutes against Denmark & Iceland, and have the grand total of last minute penalty to show for their efforts, that's not acceptable by anyone's standards.

A midfield 2 of Foden/Grealish should at least be able to keep the ball, and create chances for the front 3, I'm not convinced that Sancho should be part of that forward trio, I'd be putting DCL or Ings ahead of him in the pecking order, but the rest look much better balanced than Southgate's current flops.

If Greenwood keeps out of trouble and doesn't ruin his career by being a twunt, I think he'll be part of the best possible front 3 before long. Reports that Juventus are interested in signing him to replace Ronaldo.
He looks quality whenever I see him play.

[tiger76]

We were rubbish up until the Germany game in 1990. We drew with Ireland who were made up of 3rd rate English players, we clung on to a boring 0-0 against Holland and just about beat an Egypt side who would struggle with todays Andora and had to rely on a Mark Wright header worthy of the lower leagues

If you want to know what an easy ride is then 4 out of 6 3rd place teams qualified out of the group stages

We played a decent Belgium side and was outplayed and were holding on to get to penalties when we scored with last kick of the game

Then Cameroon who were not a good side but just had a good tournament. Even the English players have admitted they thought it was a bye into the semi's. We very nearly lost needing a penalty towards the end of the game draw level and finally winning with a pen in extra time

Against the Germans we we brilliant and that game is what everyone remembers

My point is this team and manager are held up as greats when in fact we were pretty dire and lucky to make it to the semis whilst Southgate gets rediculous hate when his record is very good and better than Bobby Robsons

If you want to know what a clueless England looks like go and watch our 1990 qualification campaign cos it makes Southgates team look like the great Brazilian teams

That England team of 1990 was nearing it's break up, and it was no surprise that the following years were spent in the wilderness, however they and the 2018 team had a great chance of glory due to a lot of the bigger nations not qualifying or having poor tournaments, sadly neither could take advantage of a once in a generation chance, it's unlikely that another chance as good as those will arise for a long time I'm afraid.

I'm prepared to give Southgate time if there's signs of progress, which a year ago there was, but this last 12 months doesn't bode well for the upcoming Euro's. And what worries me is Gareth is now reeling out excuses after poor results, which wasn't the case in the early days of his reign.

A genuine DA how far do you think England will progress in next year's Euro's?, and if they don't at least make the final 4 should Southgate be replaced?

[tiger76]

If Greenwood keeps out of trouble and doesn't ruin his career by being a twunt, I think he'll be part of the best possible front 3 before long. Reports that Juventus are interested in signing him to replace Ronaldo.
He looks quality whenever I see him play.

Greenwood is a natural finisher, and you can't teach that, if he gets his head down he should be a long term part of England's plans for a decade or more. The forward line doesn't worry me, there's plenty of options to choose from, what GS needs to do is work out how to get the midfield and defence working more effectively, if he can do that, then with that firepower England will present anybody with problems, however it's the lack of creativity in the centre of the park that worries me, Grealish is a possible solution to that dilemma, and given his display last night the shirt is his to lose in my view.

[Im_not_Robbie_Blake]

Pope
Trippier Mings Mee Chilwell
Henderson
Mount Barkley
Sterling Kane Grealish


On t'bench
James
Sako
McNeil
Tarkowski

[Spijed]

What's happened to Foden and all the talk about him being England's future?

[taio]

What's happened to Foden and all the talk about him being England's future?

He's only 20 and has made very bright start to his career so no reason to believe he hasn't got a big part to play in the future.

[Devils_Advocate]

A genuine DA how far do you think England will progress in next year's Euro's?, and if they don't at least make the final 4 should Southgate be replaced?

I think we'll reach the last 8 and then we'll struggle but we're capable of a win or two more. I dont regard Southgate as a good manager but you cant knock what he's done so far.

Before he came in people were clambering for youth to get a chance and not just stick with the Rooney's and old guard. Now we have a really fluid set up where he obviously has 6 or 7 players he trusts and regards as his main men, then he has developed a team of younger players who fight for the remaining places and at the same time uses friendlys to blood future players and get them part of the group

He has done all this whilst reaching a W/C semi final, the League of Nations final, succeeding in qualification easily and playing some exciting attacking football. Im not sure what more we could ask for at this stage and all this rubbish about form players and being a Yes man is just social media waffle

He is doubly hated on here because he doesnt pick Pope or Tarks but again people who let their obsessive behaviour cloud their views arent worth listening too

If we flop in summer and dont make the last 8 or scrape our way there before getting dumped out easily then his time could be up but so far he's got a great record, developed a team with real potential and hasnt failed any major test as of yet

[IanMcL]

Yet he is (arguably) England's most successful manager for 30 years.

Very arguably!

[superdimitri]

I think they very much are good enough. The best individual youngsters I can remember as an England fan. It's the tactics that Southgate hasn't yet figured out properly and our defence is a very very weak link.

Depends who it is I guess. I think our attack is potent, but the same can't be said for the whole team. The defense in particular looks poor with the likes of Dier and Mings. Defensive midfield is poor with Rice.

I think when Germany had a good batch of youngsters it was all-round. Not the same for us.

[boatshed bill]

For me, Southgate is trying too many players.
He needs to get down to a nucleus plus reliable replacements.
as it stands there seems to be very little cohesion.

[Rowls]

People discussing Southgate's selections and tactics in detail are missing the big picture:

He's a bad manager. He proved this at Middlesbrough.

His teams have a habit of fannying around with the ball, letting goals in (often because they've been caught out fannying around with the ball) and failing to create chances or score goals.

[huw.Y.WattfromWare]

Sky have a pick your England team page currently. Tarks isn’t even an option.

[tiger76]

People discussing Southgate's selections and tactics in detail are missing the big picture:

He's a bad manager. He proved this at Middlesbrough.

His teams have a habit of fannying around with the ball, letting goals in (often because they've been caught out fannying around with the ball) and failing to create chances or score goals.

Yes he isn't learning the lessons from previous defeats, why do England insist on playing out from the back, when it keeps costing us goals. our defenders aren't good enough technically to pull off that type of footy, let's get a solid back line first, and then we can allow our better players to create havoc in the opponent's half, it's not just the porous defending, since 2018 England rarely look like scoring against the higher ranked nations, the one highlight was the 1st half in Spain when we run the Spanish ragged for 45 minutes, but alas that's a one-off in recent games.

England are better at sitting in and hitting on the break, however when teams camp in their own half, as both Denmark & Iceland did we lack the spark to break them down, and unless GS can solve that conundrum England will struggle to reach the latter stages of major tournaments regularly.

[Claretincraven]

Oh look, Sterling out of the game v Iceland. Tied on to play for Citeh this weekend.

[superdimitri]

Oh look, Sterling out of the game v Iceland. Tied on to play for Citeh this weekend.

Convenient ey. Henderson will probably play too.

Not a surprise though when you think how easy the conversation between Southgate and club managers would be when they ask him to limit the play time of their players.

Wenger was a master at sending out international instructions.