Electric Cars

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Rileybobs
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:31 pm

Boss Hogg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:55 pm
It could take away your ability to just get in a car and go where you want.
How’s that?

KateR
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by KateR » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:45 pm

I see electric cars as a stepping stone, hydrogen fueled cars will over take electric in the future, not for quite a while yet but it's coming, I think the move to stopping building ICE is a great move, happening in places and will hasten the H2 cars of the future.

Found the link very helpful in understanding the differences and our alternatives of the future:

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do ... -cars-work
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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:54 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:31 am
You are right. Many many car owners who live on terraced streets which weren't built to accommodate cars.

Like most things it is designed for the SE, and many Londoners for example dont own cars. They have very good public transport facilities. We don't. This what Johnson ought to be working on and that would reduce pollution from vehicles. For example Rossendale and Ramsbottom has no train connection into Manchester and consequently the M66 is a bit like a car park at certain times of the day. All these cars (not to mention freight) emitting pollution.
It isn't designed for the south east either.

EV will become the norm, the deadlines set are going to get things moving.
The tech will improve, as will availability of charging points.

All the negativity is amusing, almost like people don't want progress.

clarethomer
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:00 pm

Disclaimer - I am an EV Driver.

There are so many comments and questions on the thread so far but here are my thoughts on this.

Costs....

We are 10 years away from this change and there is no doubt that the upfront cost of buying an EV currently can be more costly today, however, the accepted position by many in the car industry is that within the next 2-3 years there will be parity in cost of an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) car.

If you look back 10 years, the cost of batteries was around £1500 per KWh, this is now a tenth of this at around £150. The technology and costs are getting more competitive and whilst the cost of the car hasn't come down necessarily, the range in which EVs can cover has gone up.

My last diesel car would cost £0.16 a mile to fill. My EV costs me around £0.015 a mile (and on 2 occasions in the last 3 months, I have actually been paid to charge my car).

Range...

The range of an EV is a massive discussion point for ICE owners and was a big consideration in my purchasing decision. When I looked (pre-covid) at my car use, I rarely did over 50 miles a day and when I did, it was likely that I would need to stop on the journey anyway, or would be staying over somewhere so having to charge away from home wasn't an issue. I currently drive an EV with a range of 110-140miles and never have any issues.

You will get comments about until I can get an EV that can do 500 miles on one charge and costs the same as my current car then I won't consider... The reality is for most that if you drive 500 miles without stopping then you are likely to be taking a higher risk of tiredness and/or have a better bladder than most. Just because your current driving habits may allow you to do 500 miles without topping up. You often only need 20-40mins to get a boost on your journey.

In 10 years time, I would expect that 500 miles range will be the more normal than 300 miles is today on an EV.


Charging...

I know the topic of charging has been asked and what about those with on-street parking only? Again in 10 years time, this will be more common than just in the large cities but it is actually quite easy to build kerbside charging and can be built into bollards/lamp posts etc.

It would be crazy with the current public charging network to do this now. I rarely rely on it but you would hope that with employers/carvparks/on-street charging options, this will become more commonplace and 10 years does allow the time for this infrastructure to grow.

One of my frustrations of charging is all the apps you need. There is movement on this and legislation that can be enforced that exists today which will mean in 10 years time public charging should be as easy as filling up your car today with contactless payment at the charger.

Likewise the charging points can actually remove the need for contactless payment and like Tesla have the software to charge back to your account. i have a card with my electric supplier which allows my public charging to be charged back to my home energy account.

I spend no time at all charging now other than plugging in the car after the last journey of the day and unplugging on the morning. I spent less than 5 seconds doing this. I bet many of you spend more time stood on forecourts 'charging' your ICE cars?

Taxation/Running costs.

Overall i now pay less for my EV as no VED and servicing is minimal with no engine. There are likely to be changes in this area which will mean we pay more in the future as they can charge VED but they can't tax my electricity account as they don't know what i use for my car or normal houshold use.

Its an exciting future but I think the concerns raised today -without seeingt he future it is hard to know that this will work. 10 years is a long time.
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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:00 pm

Boss Hogg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:55 pm
‘All’ Its a bit infrastructure and it may be different in different countries. It could take away your ability to just get in a car and go where you want.
Doubt it

We have the same fuel across the world for cars.

EV's will have the same charging points.

For example VW won't make an electric golf that will only fit a charging point in one country.

Boss Hogg
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Boss Hogg » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:03 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:54 pm
It isn't designed for the south east either.

EV will become the norm, the deadlines set are going to get things moving.
The tech will improve, as will availability of charging points.

All the negativity is amusing, almost like people don't want progress.
I just want to be able to fill up my Ferrari.

dsr
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by dsr » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:05 pm

clarethomer wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:00 pm
Disclaimer - I am an EV Driver.

...

Its an exciting future but I think the concerns raised today -without seeingt he future it is hard to know that this will work. 10 years is a long time.
I won't quote the whole lot!

But yes. All that makes sense. As it stands now, abolishing petrol cars makes no sense. as technology is in future, it could work - but we need the technology first. The government perhaps ought to make it clearer that this is a target, not an immutable law, and it will only happen if the technology is there.

KateR
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by KateR » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:31 pm

dsr wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:05 pm
I won't quote the whole lot!

But yes. All that makes sense. As it stands now, abolishing petrol cars makes no sense. as technology is in future, it could work - but we need the technology first. The government perhaps ought to make it clearer that this is a target, not an immutable law, and it will only happen if the technology is there.
The technology is here, ICE is old technology and while there has been a huge amount of work over decades it is still inefficient and it is time to make a stake in the ground and force the change.

It's not a target it is a requirement, UK not the first to implement and it is welcomed by many and car manufacturers are aware that the time of what has been normal is coming to an end, they can now smell it, soon they will see it very clearly, you are living/watching history in the making, transport change is just one element of the great shift.

The government make perfect sense in this.

cricketfieldclarets
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:42 pm

Probably covered. But the biggest stumbling block currently is range of vehicles, amount of charging point and the time to charge.

Also imagine eventually charging will become chargeable.

aggi
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by aggi » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:43 pm

Hipper wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:41 am
I don't see why the government/tax payers should be responsible for the infrastructure. Sources of petrol are not in government hands. Other major infrastructure such as broadband is not payed for by government. Surely the private sector and individual motorists can deal with this.

What the government can do is start the ball rolling with incentives like they did with solar panels.
...
The trouble with this is that the private sector aren't going to want to build the infrastructure in places where the demand is low or the costs are exorbitantly high, just look at broadband speeds for an indicator of that.

In terms of the bigger picture though, this should really be a minor policy compared to getting people out of cars altogether. Better public transport and encouragement to walk/cycle is what's really needed.

RingoMcCartney
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:21 pm

" Our research shows, just the production of a typical battery an EV uses, produces 25% of the carbon that an efficient petrol car produces in its entire life."

Bjorn Lomberg , Copenhagen Consensus, think tank. 18th November, 2020.

claret2018
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by claret2018 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:34 pm

The UK is mikes behind some other European countries when it comes to EVs. If you go to Amsterdam, 90% of taxis are electric, and lots in private ownership. You see loads of cars plugged in in the side of the road in most Dutch towns.

It’s ambitious, but certainly achievable if the govt puts the infrastructure in place.

Hipper
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Hipper » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:36 pm

Work has been going on for a number of years to replace the petrol car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hmZfF4Mt0g

I think more research is required.
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KateR
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by KateR » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:50 pm

claret2018 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:34 pm
The UK is mikes behind some other European countries when it comes to EVs. If you go to Amsterdam, 90% of taxis are electric, and lots in private ownership. You see loads of cars plugged in in the side of the road in most Dutch towns.

It’s ambitious, but certainly achievable if the govt puts the infrastructure in place.
Not just EV's, but in many other similar things if you take the rationale for the change as the starting point, the Dutch Gov. are way ahead of many nations. Similarly California is way ahead of other states and is comparable with Netherlands in many areas. Pockets of Gov. making strategic decisions that are pushing the edge, while many others are waiting, watching, as they evolve in a proven way others will surely follow.

While considering these elements, when discussing EV as a way to help Global Warming it solves some programs but creates many others in terms of battery production & I personally will be happy to see EV's reduce in time. The following link is showing some really good pictures, not due to battery needs but that is going to come and in the future there will be pictures of it for future generations to see. Ringo touched on this and it is happening.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2020 ... landscapes

Bosscat
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Bosscat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:24 pm


Billyblah
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Billyblah » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:02 pm

Given that we have a huge house building programme under way, equipping new-builds with charge equipment as standard would help with government targets on electric car sales....but again, I suspect the construction industry is way behind on this one.

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Bosscat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:37 pm

Billyblah wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:02 pm
Given that we have a huge house building programme under way, equipping new-builds with charge equipment as standard would help with government targets on electric car sales....but again, I suspect the construction industry is way behind on this one.
Aligning rooftops with south-south-west and fitting solar panels as well Bb on all newbuilds

clarethomer
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:43 pm

As has been said, the technology is here but what isn't here is the infrastructure to support mass adoption. That is why you can't form your opinion on today but consider whether it is realistic that the infrastructure could be here in 10 years.

In terms of infrastructure and comparing it to broadband. Thankfully its probably a bit easier to roll out. You just need somewhere that can connect to the grid.

Look at Burnley - There is an ev charger in McDonalds nr ASDA. There are 3 or 4 near the Bridge pub. There are several other ones no doubt.

You have 2 in Barrowford.

You have one at sainsburys in colne, a few opposite spoons in colne

You have a few in Barnoldswick

You have a few in Skipton

You have some at the services at Blackburn

In fact there are lots of chargers about
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I have seen some developments being approved which claim they will be built with EV charging points so I can imagine that this could easily be built into planning policies.

In terms of whether EVs are more friendly for the environment when compared to the ICE. Here is the research that concludes this.

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files ... 018_vF.pdf

clarethomer
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:46 pm

Billyblah wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:02 pm
Given that we have a huge house building programme under way, equipping new-builds with charge equipment as standard would help with government targets on electric car sales....but again, I suspect the construction industry is way behind on this one.
Looks to be already happening in the local area to Burnley so no doubt this is being encouraged..

https://www.northstone.co.uk/news/resid ... ord-homes/
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Rileybobs
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:46 pm

Billyblah wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:02 pm
Given that we have a huge house building programme under way, equipping new-builds with charge equipment as standard would help with government targets on electric car sales....but again, I suspect the construction industry is way behind on this one.
EV charging points are required to be installed as standard to all properties in almost all new residential developments.

GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:07 pm

Boss Hogg wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:03 pm
I just want to be able to fill up my Ferrari.
You'll be alright, Ferrari are playing the long game with this one :lol:
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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:26 pm

Electric cars is an interesting subject.
Hybrid cars are completely pointless in my opinion. Expensive and 90% of drivers would get the same MPG from a none Hybrid. Your virtually tried into the main dealer when you trade in. Your local second hand dealer will not want it as dealer battery warranties are about 5 years and cost more than most second cars to replace.

Full electric cars are only expensive today due to the price of the batteries and manufacturers marking up prices to take advantage of the ethos of buyers, the car costs less to make than an ice car.

One concern was classic cars, interestingly there are now companies buying up crashed Tesla’s and fitting the drive trains into classic cars. It’s upsetting the purists. But hey ho, the world moves on. But not sure how it will affect many very old classic cars.

Kater, mentioned hydrogen, my old company RR spent years trying to make a H2 fuel cell. And failed. Now knowing some the clever geeks on that project, it going to take special kind of geek who solves that puzzle.

My main issue currently is lithium’s ability to bust into flames. Tesla decided to have flush door handles which is has proved a bit of an issue. I have read a couple of Tesla’s have burst into flames (no surprise, lit-ion batteries do that) but having lost electric power the door handles remain flush and people outside of the cars could not get the doors open and the occupants burnt to death. No idea why they could not be opened from the inside.

So for me, I will carryon with my 5.7 litre soft top (summer toy) and my gas gusling 4 x 4.

Paul Waine
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:43 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:43 pm
The trouble with this is that the private sector aren't going to want to build the infrastructure in places where the demand is low or the costs are exorbitantly high, just look at broadband speeds for an indicator of that.

In terms of the bigger picture though, this should really be a minor policy compared to getting people out of cars altogether. Better public transport and encouragement to walk/cycle is what's really needed.
Hi aggi, most places where people live are already connected to the grid. Places where demand to charge e-vehicles is low will still be able to charge from the existing wires. It's not the same as broadband, you are charging your ev and will travel away from where "demand is low" rather than sit waiting for your "low-band" to connect to the internet and download a film etc.

It will be the areas where demand is high that require the upgrade in infrastructure - though quite possible that technology will assist with drawing power from evs that have signed up to sell some of the power stored in their car battery to meet demand, depending on their own driving profile.
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clarethomer
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:50 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:26 pm
Electric cars is an interesting subject.
Hybrid cars are completely pointless in my opinion. Expensive and 90% of drivers would get the same MPG from a none Hybrid. Your virtually tried into the main dealer when you trade in. Your local second hand dealer will not want it as dealer battery warranties are about 5 years and cost more than most second cars to replace.
They are a marketing dream by the way they are advertised. They use petrol/diesel to charge and you will find that as a result they are heavier too as cars so their benefits are often oversold.

Plug in Hybrids (PHEVs) are almost as bad too in reality but I can actually see some use in them where you can get actually drive more than a mile or two on pure electric.
Full electric cars are only expensive today due to the price of the batteries and manufacturers marking up prices to take advantage of the ethos of buyers, the car costs less to make than an ice car.
It is not just the price of batteries as these have come down (although they now can put more in to increase range). I would say the reasons for costs are more to do with the costs invested into setting up new production lines and tooling and software etc.
Kater, mentioned hydrogen, my old company RR spent years trying to make a H2 fuel cell. And failed. Now knowing some the clever geeks on that project, it going to take special kind of geek who solves that puzzle.
Hyundai do a hydrogen car. Look where you can fill it up though and I think last time I looked there were 2 places in the North of England. I think this is more likely to be suited to commercial use than domestic from what I have researched on this.
My main issue currently is lithium’s ability to bust into flames. Tesla decided to have flush door handles which is has proved a bit of an issue. I have read a couple of Tesla’s have burst into flames (no surprise, lit-ion batteries do that) but having lost electric power the door handles remain flush and people outside of the cars could not get the doors open and the occupants burnt to death. No idea why they could not be opened from the inside.

So for me, I will carryon with my 5.7 litre soft top (summer toy) and my gas gusling 4 x 4.
I bet if you looked at how many EVs have burst into flames and then look at how many issues ICE have done similar, it won't be an exclusive EV thing.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/vauxhall/ ... lled-again

The flush handles thing is something the RR Velar also has so again this design is a car design not an EV/Tesla design. Of course stories like that will make news but EVs are not just Teslas so its like using the Zafira as a benchmark for the whole ICE range of cars.

Enjoy the cheaper 'gas' before it starts getting taxed to death

clarethomer
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:57 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:43 pm
It will be the areas where demand is high that require the upgrade in infrastructure - though quite possible that technology will assist with drawing power from evs that have signed up to sell some of the power stored in their car battery to meet demand, depending on their own driving profile.
There are already some initiatives happening in this area in terms of Vehicle to Grid to help balance the loads.

I use Octopus Agile rate which encourages me to shift my use of electricity away from peak times. I haven't changed my habits but are benefitting from much cheaper electricity.

I am running a home with 2 adults and 2 kids (which both of us are full time working from home and 2 kids who think we are competing with blackpool illuminations) My monthly mileage before lockdown was about 600 miles. My monthly elec bill was a little under £90 for running the house for a month and my car.

The other week, I was actually paid by Octopus to use electricity because it was cheaper for them to do this than turn off things and switch them back on.

All quite interesting stuff that pass a lot of people by.
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ClaretAL
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by ClaretAL » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:08 pm

I am due for my new company car, and the incentive of zero tax climbing to 2% is a massive payrise monthly to me. I have to choose from the vW group, so looking at the Skoda Enyaq and the VW ID4, the Audis are out of my price bracket.

clarethomer
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:37 pm

ClaretAL wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:08 pm
I am due for my new company car, and the incentive of zero tax climbing to 2% is a massive payrise monthly to me. I have to choose from the vW group, so looking at the Skoda Enyaq and the VW ID4, the Audis are out of my price bracket.
I would choose the Skoda out of those ClaretAL

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:54 pm

clarethomer wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:50 pm
I bet if you looked at how many EVs have burst into flames and then look at how many issues ICE have done similar, it won't be an exclusive EV thing.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/vauxhall/ ... lled-again

The flush handles thing is something the RR Velar also has so again this design is a car design not an EV/Tesla design. Of course stories like that will make news but EVs are not just Teslas so its like using the Zafira as a benchmark for the whole ICE range of cars.

Enjoy the cheaper 'gas' before it starts getting taxed to death
Petrol cars have a very flammable liquid on board, it’s no wonder they occasionally burst into flames.

Flush handles are not an issue but the DFMEA should have identified that doors cannot be opened in a fire and they fail safe should be they pop out in an electric failure.

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by chorleyhere » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:35 pm

Hi Darthlaw, I was buying a second hand Nissan Leaf from Chorley Nissan and having done a bit of research, found that those buying a 'new' Leaf were able to access a Nissan-Podpoint scheme whereby the owner could choose a pod point free of charge. To my surprise the salesman said I was eligible even though mine was 2nd hand, not even the newer Leaf model. I think the grant was around £500. When I used the Nissan dealer's connection to Podpoint, I could have the basic point for free or pay £80 extra and have the 7.7kWh charger installed. So that was what I did and even though the main electricity box was on the far side of the house, the engineer cabled it right across and installed the point just inside my garage door. He was there setting it all up for nearly three hours and I was very pleased with the result. Not bad for an outlay of £80.

I don't know the exact figures but I think you can still install a point with a government grant - I stand to be corrected but well worth investigating. I was advised well by the company as it now charges up my e-Niro. I can, with careful driving manage, more than the 250 miles suggested mileage and closer to 280miles as suggested by the manufacturer. Of course it depends on the type of driving and terrain and weather conditions. In my normal driving with full regeneration I can get 4.7miles per kWh of battery which would suggest a 'possibility' of 4.7 x 64kWh = 300miles.
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Darthlaw
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:57 pm

Thanks for that, Chorley.

Sounds like you got a great deal as an early adopter and the government grants have also dropped. Basically the grant is now £350 but you must use a government approved installer to fit the point. As ever, they tend to use that as licence to set a market rate, which has effectively brought all 7kw chargers to between £500 and £550 (unless you want a pretty one which can be around £1100).

I’m going to see if I can work with just a three pin plug in my garage, initially, which should replenish the 40 mile commute I do fairly easily. Once COVID calms down and I have to go out to see customers, I’ll probably then look at a 7kw charger.

KateR
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by KateR » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:56 pm

This is a field I am working on daily, for me it is interesting to try and see where we go, for now electric is the front runner and as mentioned battery performance is critical, today most home charging of battery driven cars is in the 10 -14 hours, larger ones can be over 24 hours so there is a lot of work around battery storage and charging. For example and prerhaps coming to homes near you in the future:
In April 2019, ABB signed a contract with Electrify America for providing its high-power electric vehicle chargers across the United States. These chargers can charge the vehicle in 15 minutes and would be deployed around 17 metropolitan areas, this is of course a game changer for EV's.

I note a couple of people mentioning Fuel Cell technology, this is well advanced, have no idea what RR were doing but they are not a player as I know in this market.

I have been working on a deal involving hydrogen driven vehicles, so have been having discussions with Shell and Iwatani regarding H2 fuelling stations in California, each of them have approx 40 stations to build, they each already have some, I am involved in integrating a W2H2 system to produce Green Hydrogen production which will be the H2 that they will buy to keep their stations full for vehicles. This is only one of the areas I am working on but the closest to actual start as the offtake agreements have now been signed and both Shell & Iwatani have received grants from California Gov to start building. Shell & Iwatani are working in conjunction with a few car manufacturers in hydroegn fueled vehicles they want to bring to the market so there is a full circular through this value chain, including a city in California who will provide the waste as the feedstock tot he H2 plant for a true Green Hydrogen production facility. The company I am working with for this, already operates and maintains H2 fuelling stations in Netherlands and Belgium, however they are not chasing the fueling station but the design/build operate of the H2 facility.

My analysis is the FCEV's will be where it goes but not for a long time as the infrastructure is way behind EV's so a blend will emerge but Hydrogen will be replacing O&G derivatives for the foreseeable future.

When I talk about seeing the future trend emerge before our eyes, I relate it to the picture below regarding energy transitions.
Attachments
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IanMcL
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by IanMcL » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:48 pm

Herts Clarets wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:43 pm
I suspect there would be a big difference between Tesla technology and something introduced by government.
Hmmm... Track & Trace....lost forever!😄

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by IanMcL » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:49 pm

If everyone gets an electric car, it will remove my fun at traffic lights!
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by LeuvenClaret » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:08 pm

Cars will cost more and then how will the goverments rasie the tax loss from fuel? .... thats what people should be worried about! Where will the loss in revenue on fuel go?

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:23 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:08 pm
Cars will cost more and then how will the goverments rasie the tax loss from fuel? .... thats what people should be worried about! Where will the loss in revenue on fuel go?
Cars wont cost more and why should we be worried about tax losses from fuel. If you were paying tax on fuel, you will simply replace this by paying tax on your EV 'fuel' in some form or another.

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:29 pm

KateR wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:56 pm
This is a field I am working on daily, for me it is interesting to try and see where we go, for now electric is the front runner and as mentioned battery performance is critical, today most home charging of battery driven cars is in the 10 -14 hours, larger ones can be over 24 hours so there is a lot of work around battery storage and charging.
If you are in the US, your electricity supply differs to the UK.

From what I see, US EV drivers appear to suffer from slower charging times as standard because of the supply differences to the UK.

Its fairly common to have a 7.2kw/h charger here if your living situation permits, which means that it would take me 4.5hrs to charge my 32.5kwh battery or 9hrs for a 64kw/h battery

Your times would indicate someone charging on a granny charger (standard plug) which will do a max of approx 2kw/h depending on your supply/home electrics.

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by LeuvenClaret » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:49 pm

clarethomer wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:23 pm
Cars wont cost more and why should we be worried about tax losses from fuel. If you were paying tax on fuel, you will simply replace this by paying tax on your EV 'fuel' in some form or another.
are you blind to the difference in cost of petrol and the taxd version? ... try that with electric!
Last edited by LeuvenClaret on Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

claret2018
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by claret2018 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:49 pm

ClaretAL wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:08 pm
I am due for my new company car, and the incentive of zero tax climbing to 2% is a massive payrise monthly to me. I have to choose from the vW group, so looking at the Skoda Enyaq and the VW ID4, the Audis are out of my price bracket.
Have you done the numbers on an Audi Q5 hybrid? £200 a month in company car tax at 40%, very good deal

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:07 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:49 pm
are you blind to the difference in cost of petrol and the taxd version? ... try that with electric!
I can see but can't understand your question... please explain?
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clarethomer
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:21 pm

32.8m vehicles licenced on the UK roads paying various levels of tax for using their car.

That tax comes in many forms. Fuel Duty, VED, Insurance Premium Tax, VAT

If one of those things becomes more difficult to make money from, its not beyond the realms of sensible realisation that the government will need to replace the lost revenue somehow.

£28bn is made on fuel duty.

If in the future there if the loss of fuel duty increased on to the other areas, there isn't a problem surely?

At the moment, I pay no VED, no fuel duty and what used to cost me £166.66 to do 1000 miles, now costs me on average £21.33 to do the same.

If they don't recoup through these methods, paying per mile seems to be the consensus on EV groups that I am part of.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/car ... venue.html
Last edited by clarethomer on Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KateR
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by KateR » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:36 pm

clarethomer wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:29 pm
If you are in the US, your electricity supply differs to the UK.

From what I see, US EV drivers appear to suffer from slower charging times as standard because of the supply differences to the UK.

Its fairly common to have a 7.2kw/h charger here if your living situation permits, which means that it would take me 4.5hrs to charge my 32.5kwh battery or 9hrs for a 64kw/h battery

Your times would indicate someone charging on a granny charger (standard plug) which will do a max of approx 2kw/h depending on your supply/home electrics.
yes different for many places but the figures quoted were for the UK and also part of the UK grants for fast chargers, however, this is minutia and was more around looking at the bigger picture of what is available today. What will be available relatively soon and what is in the future. Charging and battery storage are continually under making the next steps better, same with fuel cell construction and all around efficiency improvements.

Charge rates differ but from what I can see, 3 main options in Charge Rate(3) 3.7, 7 & 22kW so depending upon what you chose and car size/battery, you get different costs and time, not saying there is a problem just need to decide what suits best in regard to time and money.

I think everyone understands the revenue derived for petrol in the UK and the change to reducing consumption will invariably lead to development of a replacement tax system that benefits the UK Gov.

I thought this was interesting:
This year, of course, has been an economic shock for all industries, so it’s remarkable that sales of EVs have been very resilient. In the United Kingdom, for example, the latest year-to-date sales figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders suggest that while sales of diesel and petrol vehicles are both down by over 50 per cent compared to 2019, sales of battery electric vehicles are actually up by more than 130 per cent. This is just the latest indication that what was once a niche area of the industry has now been anointed as its future. As EVs become mainstream, we are also seeing a new wave of innovations – with vehicles more connected than ever, incorporating new reporting and networking capabilities that promise to change how we use the roads.

Yet as posted previously Trains and heavy vehicles will move to hydrogen power rather than EV, places like Aberdeen run hydrogen buses today and NI has a large factory for hydrogen bus production with others being added to cities, not just the UK. BEV & FCEV vehicles are a good way to change transportation as we know it and improve on pollution of today in many places, can only be a good thing in my opinion.

For those intrepid investors, maybe Tesla is not worth it now however it should be noted that:
Lithium, which is extracted from the mineral lepidolite (pictured here), is becoming an increasingly popular commodity. Demand for lithium-ion batteries for use in electric cars, trucks, and buses could rise to more than 85 percent of the total in 2030, from just 7 percent in 2020. Personally I don't think it will go that big and I certainly hope not but the growth for the next decade is definitely there, choosing the company that mines/makes the batteries will be the trick.

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Lowbankclaret » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:00 am

KateR wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:56 pm
This is a field I am working on daily, for me it is interesting to try and see where we go, for now electric is the front runner and as mentioned battery performance is critical, today most home charging of battery driven cars is in the 10 -14 hours, larger ones can be over 24 hours so there is a lot of work around battery storage and charging. For example and prerhaps coming to homes near you in the future:
In April 2019, ABB signed a contract with Electrify America for providing its high-power electric vehicle chargers across the United States. These chargers can charge the vehicle in 15 minutes and would be deployed around 17 metropolitan areas, this is of course a game changer for EV's.

I note a couple of people mentioning Fuel Cell technology, this is well advanced, have no idea what RR were doing but they are not a player as I know in this market.

I have been working on a deal involving hydrogen driven vehicles, so have been having discussions with Shell and Iwatani regarding H2 fuelling stations in California, each of them have approx 40 stations to build, they each already have some, I am involved in integrating a W2H2 system to produce Green Hydrogen production which will be the H2 that they will buy to keep their stations full for vehicles. This is only one of the areas I am working on but the closest to actual start as the offtake agreements have now been signed and both Shell & Iwatani have received grants from California Gov to start building. Shell & Iwatani are working in conjunction with a few car manufacturers in hydroegn fueled vehicles they want to bring to the market so there is a full circular through this value chain, including a city in California who will provide the waste as the feedstock tot he H2 plant for a true Green Hydrogen production facility. The company I am working with for this, already operates and maintains H2 fuelling stations in Netherlands and Belgium, however they are not chasing the fueling station but the design/build operate of the H2 facility.

My analysis is the FCEV's will be where it goes but not for a long time as the infrastructure is way behind EV's so a blend will emerge but Hydrogen will be replacing O&G derivatives for the foreseeable future.

When I talk about seeing the future trend emerge before our eyes, I relate it to the picture below regarding energy transitions.
RR were working on some kinda of hydrogen fuel cell, the project got dropped.
Thank you for posting the information, very interesting.

I can see in 5-10 years time the advances in tech will mean the majority of people will be fine will Electric cars.

With the incoming speed controlled vehicles driving will change as we know it.
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:43 pm

KateR wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:36 pm
Charge rates differ but from what I can see, 3 main options in Charge Rate(3) 3.7, 7 & 22kW so depending upon what you chose and car size/battery, you get different costs and time, not saying there is a problem just need to decide what suits best in regard to time and money.
In the UK, home charging in the main is limited by single phase supply to a propery - which means home charging options are upto 7.4kW/h of charging.

Its around 2kW from a standard plug and you can then usually have the 3.7 or 7.4kW/h option if you want a dedicated charging point. What you can have needs to be approved by the DNO and the electrician has to be satisfied that it is safe also - which includes having sufficient size main fuse and potential need for earthing.

You can get 11kw or 22kW/h charging from home if your house benefits from 3 phase supply in to your property.

In simple terms the cost is driven by the cost of the charger and installation and then the cost of your electricity.

The time is a simple consideration. You simply divide the usable battery size by the speed of your charger. As an example and for ease of maths - if you had a 40kW battery pack which was fully usable then on a standard UK plug, this would take around the 20 hourse mark but if you were to install a 7.4kw/h charger then this would reduce down to around 5.5 hrs. This is very broad and doesn't account for the fact that batteries do not charge at a linear speed.

Typical cost of electricity in the UK is around 14p per kW so a 40kW battery would cost about £5.60 for a full charge. It doesn't matter if that takes you 5.5hrs or 20hrs the cost is roughly the same - although in reality, it will differ given the non-linear way of charging.

If you want to charge away from home, it is possible to get much faster charging but you may find your EV limits the speed of charge as it could be limited to 100kW/h as an example so you don't get any benefit from going on a 150kW/h charger. If you charge on something like the Ionity network, it can be more expensive the diesel/petrol to fill your car as this is where you do actually pay different prices for the speed.

I think everyone understands the revenue derived for petrol in the UK and the change to reducing consumption will invariably lead to development of a replacement tax system that benefits the UK Gov.

I thought this was interesting:
This year, of course, has been an economic shock for all industries, so it’s remarkable that sales of EVs have been very resilient. In the United Kingdom, for example, the latest year-to-date sales figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders suggest that while sales of diesel and petrol vehicles are both down by over 50 per cent compared to 2019, sales of battery electric vehicles are actually up by more than 130 per cent. This is just the latest indication that what was once a niche area of the industry has now been anointed as its future. As EVs become mainstream, we are also seeing a new wave of innovations – with vehicles more connected than ever, incorporating new reporting and networking capabilities that promise to change how we use the roads.
Yep it is the fastest growing areas in car sales from some of the reports I have seen and it is a trend that is only expected to continue similarly like the graph you presented on a previous post. People are slowly making the shift and I can imagine it being similar to my transition where I still have an ICE car in the house. I have been able to test/learn about how EV ownership suits.
Yet as posted previously Trains and heavy vehicles will move to hydrogen power rather than EV, places like Aberdeen run hydrogen buses today and NI has a large factory for hydrogen bus production with others being added to cities, not just the UK. BEV & FCEV vehicles are a good way to change transportation as we know it and improve on the pollution of today in many places, can only be a good thing in my opinion.
Again this is where I see hydrogen coming in and maybe 20-30 years time it could become more mainstream albeit you can buy a hydrogen car in the uK

https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

If you saw my earlier map about ev charging points needing to grow further still to support the infrastructure and then compare where you can refuel this car
Screenshot 2020-11-20 at 12.40.22.png
Screenshot 2020-11-20 at 12.40.22.png (850.7 KiB) Viewed 2143 times
I haven't captured it but there is a refuelling station in Aberdeen so that is probably why given the report you have shared.

For those intrepid investors, maybe Tesla is not worth it now however it should be noted that:
Lithium, which is extracted from the mineral lepidolite (pictured here), is becoming an increasingly popular commodity. Demand for lithium-ion batteries for use in electric cars, trucks, and buses could rise to more than 85 percent of the total in 2030, from just 7 percent in 2020. Personally I don't think it will go that big and I certainly hope not but the growth for the next decade is definitely there, choosing the company that mines/makes the batteries will be the trick.
With great risk comes great reward and speculating in these companies is very risky but your rationale for an investor doing this is sound... My job inclines me to caveat your comment with - don't invest what you can't afford to lose.
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joey13
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by joey13 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:37 pm

clarethomer wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:00 pm
Disclaimer - I am an EV Driver.

There are so many comments and questions on the thread so far but here are my thoughts on this.

Costs....

We are 10 years away from this change and there is no doubt that the upfront cost of buying an EV currently can be more costly today, however, the accepted position by many in the car industry is that within the next 2-3 years there will be parity in cost of an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) car.

If you look back 10 years, the cost of batteries was around £1500 per KWh, this is now a tenth of this at around £150. The technology and costs are getting more competitive and whilst the cost of the car hasn't come down necessarily, the range in which EVs can cover has gone up.

My last diesel car would cost £0.16 a mile to fill. My EV costs me around £0.015 a mile (and on 2 occasions in the last 3 months, I have actually been paid to charge my car).

Range...

The range of an EV is a massive discussion point for ICE owners and was a big consideration in my purchasing decision. When I looked (pre-covid) at my car use, I rarely did over 50 miles a day and when I did, it was likely that I would need to stop on the journey anyway, or would be staying over somewhere so having to charge away from home wasn't an issue. I currently drive an EV with a range of 110-140miles and never have any issues.

You will get comments about until I can get an EV that can do 500 miles on one charge and costs the same as my current car then I won't consider... The reality is for most that if you drive 500 miles without stopping then you are likely to be taking a higher risk of tiredness and/or have a better bladder than most. Just because your current driving habits may allow you to do 500 miles without topping up. You often only need 20-40mins to get a boost on your journey.

In 10 years time, I would expect that 500 miles range will be the more normal than 300 miles is today on an EV.


Charging...

I know the topic of charging has been asked and what about those with on-street parking only? Again in 10 years time, this will be more common than just in the large cities but it is actually quite easy to build kerbside charging and can be built into bollards/lamp posts etc.

It would be crazy with the current public charging network to do this now. I rarely rely on it but you would hope that with employers/carvparks/on-street charging options, this will become more commonplace and 10 years does allow the time for this infrastructure to grow.

One of my frustrations of charging is all the apps you need. There is movement on this and legislation that can be enforced that exists today which will mean in 10 years time public charging should be as easy as filling up your car today with contactless payment at the charger.

Likewise the charging points can actually remove the need for contactless payment and like Tesla have the software to charge back to your account. i have a card with my electric supplier which allows my public charging to be charged back to my home energy account.

I spend no time at all charging now other than plugging in the car after the last journey of the day and unplugging on the morning. I spent less than 5 seconds doing this. I bet many of you spend more time stood on forecourts 'charging' your ICE cars?

Taxation/Running costs.

Overall i now pay less for my EV as no VED and servicing is minimal with no engine. There are likely to be changes in this area which will mean we pay more in the future as they can charge VED but they can't tax my electricity account as they don't know what i use for my car or normal houshold use.

Its an exciting future but I think the concerns raised today -without seeingt he future it is hard to know that this will work. 10 years is a long time.
No EV car on the market has a range of 300 miles

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Herts Clarets » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:14 pm

joey13 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:37 pm
No EV car on the market has a range of 300 miles
Tesla Model S Long Range has a reported 379 mile range. 2 other Tesla models have a range of over 300 miles.

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by clarethomer » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:07 pm

joey13 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:37 pm
No EV car on the market has a range of 300 miles
And my point is that there is 1 with a handful more coming. The point I was making is that 500mile range in 10 years will be more common than 300 today.

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by joey13 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:16 pm

Herts Clarets wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:14 pm
Tesla Model S Long Range has a reported 379 mile range. 2 other Tesla models have a range of over 300 miles.
Was that in winter , at night , and raining?
Be Lucky to get 100 miles

Claretitus
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by Claretitus » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:04 pm

joey13 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:16 pm
Was that in winter , at night , and raining?
Be Lucky to get 100 miles
Aye, and wi no radio on either!

GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Electric Cars

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:12 pm

joey13 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:37 pm
No EV car on the market has a range of 300 miles
Plenty of cars don't have that range either.

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Re: Electric Cars

Post by cbx750 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:23 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:12 pm
Plenty of cars don't have that range either.
But you can "charge" them in 2 minutes which is what puts many people off EV's also you could arrive at a service station and all the charging points could be taken, great if you are on a tight schedule.

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