Electric Cars

[GodIsADeeJay81]

But you can "charge" them in 2 minutes which is what puts many people off EV's also you could arrive at a service station and all the charging points could be taken, great if you are on a tight schedule.

Millions of drivers won't make a journey of hundreds of miles though and that's seemingly being ignored here.

Millions of Londoners don't need a diesel car, or even petrol for that matter, because they just won't drive far enough.
Same in most cities.

[joey13]

Plenty of cars don't have that range either.

And plenty have , but none are electric
Thanks for the usual pointless post

[GodIsADeeJay81]

And plenty have , but none are electric
Thanks for the usual pointless post

No worse than any of yours on here.

You're trotting out the same tired old comments about EV.
EV is where cars are heading, the combustion engine is on the way out the door, thankfully.

Cities are suffering due to horrible smoky diesels, lorries, buses, taxis.

Millions of cars sit in traffic pumping noxious gases into the air and you're sat here whinging about the range when millions will never do that many miles in a week, nevermind on one journey.

[TVC15]

Plenty of cars don't have that range either.

Only a fraction of petrol or diesel cars don’t have a range of 300 miles.
Most cars have over 400 and many diesel cars are over 500.
But even for those cars with less than 300 it takes little effort or time to find a petrol station to fill up.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Only a fraction of petrol or diesel cars don’t have a range of 300 miles.
Most cars have over 400 and many diesel cars are over 500.
But even for those cars with less than 300 it takes little effort or time to find a petrol station to fill up.

Millions of people don't drive very far in a week, nevermind one journey.

Millions also have diesel cars and only do short journeys because a former government told everyone we'd be better off with diesels

The technology will improve over the next 10 yrs and recharging times will drop, they are already.

So people trotting out the recharge time as an excuse are being small minded and looking backwards instead of forwards.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Sales of EV's will increase when more brands release their models.
A Range Rover owner isn't going to buy a mitsubishi EV, they're going to wait for a RR one.
Now that Jaguar have got their models available RR will be doing the same.

Same with a porsche owner, they aren't going to buy a golf EV, they're going to want a porsche Tayan.

This and the diesel emissions scandal are some of the main reasons why car sales have dropped over the last few years, something I've said a few times on here and I've also been told I was wrong, didn't know what I was talking about etc.

Now the charging tech is improving, this means less people will be reluctant to buy an EV.

With the Gov setting a target date, that should also mean massive infrastructure improvement and increase, so I fully expect the next 10 years to be interesting.

EV maintenance training programs, tools and PPE are being pushed very hard now in my industry, but the courses aren't cheap and many garages are holding off for now because of the limited number on the road.
Some garages are a bit more forward thinking and are putting their younger lads on the courses.


When I was interviewed by Mclaren 4-5yrs ago they asked me then if I had any knowledge or experience of EV's.
I didn't at the time and I suspect that's why I only made it to the final 2 and lost out to someone with EV knowledge.

The supercar companies are already making plans for full EV's, along with more Hybrids, something that was also dismissed by some on here as they didn't believe it would happen.

[TVC15]

Millions of people don't drive very far in a week, nevermind one journey.

Millions also have diesel cars and only do short journeys because a former government told everyone we'd be better off with diesels

The technology will improve over the next 10 yrs and recharging times will drop, they are already.

So people trotting out the recharge time as an excuse are being small minded and looking backwards instead of forwards.

I don’t disagree but I was simply replying to your incorrect comment about petrol and diesel cars.

Oh and btw whilst millions don’t drive that far in a week like you say they are also a million that do. And as somebody who spent 30 years commuting to work in my car (and very glad I no longer have to) the main reason why I and millions of others took that mode of transport was because of how poor public transport was and still is in this country.

Electric vehicles I agree will be transformational from an environmental point of view but let’s hope the infrastructure is there not only for electric vehicles but also so that people can get to their workplace via other transport methods which are better and more affordable than they are today.

[clarethomer]

Weather and seasonality can impact range - usually by about 10% but the main contributor to range deterioration is the speed you travel at and the roads you use.

Average annual mileage in 2019 is 7400. This is 142 miles per week.

ICE Diesel =

If you average 50 mpg - which is a reasonable mid-range diesel with a 60 litre tank = means that you will get 1 litre to 0.29gallons. Therefore 60 litres means you get 13.2 gallons, or 660 miles per 50 gallons.

60 litres at 117p a litre = £70.20. to cover 660 miles.

This equates to 10.6p per mile.


Electric

You can charge as standard a 5p per kW/h on Octopus Go.

To cover 660 miles with a 4.5 miles per kW/h average range.

660 Miles/4.5 = 146 kW/h

146kW/h * £0.05 = £7.30.

So £7.30 ve £70.20 for the same distance.

In winter your miles per kWh can halve potentially - that is still £14 v £70 assuming the diesel mpg remains the same - which it wont.

[Wokingclaret]

How much is the EV vehicle v the diesel

[claret59]

A smallish point but I am told that electric cars cannot tow other vehicles. Viz touring caravans. Is this the case? If so there could be problems for all those caravan owners. Some of course would look upon this as a 'plus' for E vehicles.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

A smallish point but I am told that electric cars cannot tow other vehicles. Viz touring caravans. Is this the case? If so there could be problems for all those caravan owners. Some of course would look upon this as a 'plus' for E vehicles.

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economic ... g-capacity

[clarethomer]

How much is the EV vehicle v the diesel

Lets look at a like for like shall we?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-detail ... ars&page=1

This is a golf diesel cost at 20,285.

I bought an Golf E-Golf for £21k as a demonstrator car with 1700 miles.

Do you want me to really prove that my E-golf will wipe the floor with cost?

[clarethomer]

A smallish point but I am told that electric cars cannot tow other vehicles. Viz touring caravans. Is this the case? If so there could be problems for all those caravan owners. Some of course would look upon this as a 'plus' for E vehicles.

Some EVs can tow but only up to a certain weight. As the industry moves more mainstream then this will come but yes this is an issue currently for drivers who need to tow.

[Wokingclaret]

Lets look at a like for like shall we?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-detail ... ars&page=1

This is a golf diesel cost at 20,285.

I bought an Golf E-Golf for £21k as a demonstrator car with 1700 miles.

Do you want me to really prove that my E-golf will wipe the floor with cost?

Life Story

So I live in Woking, I have a garage in a block, no drive. Street parking. What's my options, I regularly drive to west London, around 15k a year. Like the option to drive to Burnley and back in one day, but would usually go on a trip with the London Clarets.

[Wokingclaret]

PS, in the winter I like the car hot inside, the Wife does not

In the Summer the said Wife likes the air con on

[KateR]

I don't think there is a question anymore regarding EV's vs ICE, ICE days are numbered so it's just a question of when you will change and will you hold on long enough to change from ICE to FCEV, if you change during the next 10 years most/majority will change to EV during the next 7 years but if you wait 5 years you might be tempted to stick with your ICE and wait for the H2 refueling to catch up and miss the EV stepping stone.

However as always things take longer than expected and therefore the majority will switch to EV's by 2030, but it's a long way down the road, but even today for many the draw/calculations/costs means a switch from ICE to EV's during the next 2-3 years.

Battery enhancement will also play a part in this evolution of choices, personally I am hanging on to my ICE for now and not even considering anything during the next 5 years, then I will look more in depth. Personally for us cost is not the main determining factor, aesthetics very much are for now.

Demand for lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries will grow to more than 3,500 gigawatt hours (GWh) by 2030, from about 220 GWh in 2019. The structure of demand for Li-ion batteries is shifting rapidly, too. Batteries for consumer electronics could represent a much smaller part of total demand—about 2 percent in 2030, versus 18 percent today. Meanwhile, demand for Li-ion batteries for use in electric cars, trucks, and buses could rise to more than 85 percent of the total, from just 7 percent in 2020.7 Power storage for the electricity grid would account for 13 percent of demand for new batteries.

In this high-growth target scenario, 120 new large-scale factories would be needed to produce battery cells. The required raw-material inputs would increase up to 40 times, depending on the mineral used. Production of the active materials in battery cells would rise nearly 15-fold. In parallel, a more robust circular value chain, including a network of facilities to refurbish and recycle batteries, would have to expand by orders of magnitude.

Additionally charging can effect battery life but there is so little data around that today, but having to change your batteries will be worse than changing an engine in today's ICE world, not often required these days but in the past was not that uncommon.

[ElectroClaret]

The technology will improve over the next 10 yrs and recharging times will drop, they are already.

Spot on.

This is the main point for me, charging times will plummet as the science grows.
It won't be a problem in a few years, but charging points will have to be provided
many more times from now as those years pass, and I think they will be.

[KateR]

Spot on.

This is the main point for me, charging times will plummet as the science grows.
It won't be a problem in a few years, but charging points will have to be provided
many more times from now as those years pass, and I think they will be.

why,
if you want to go this route, charger at home, most hotels and decent sized companies are installing charge point plus they are growing, I'm sure very soon, like 2021 you can buy a car and plan your normal daily commutes/routes in an EV. Only issue left is, those that want to tow, those wanting to plan a holiday on the continent, even then I don't really see a big issue for the vast majority of the population beyond those who need to buy cheap cars due to finances. Guess what, expect older ICE cars to drop in price as the change over moves along, people can still buy cheap ICE cars for the next 25 years.

Decommissioning & recycling cars/vehicles in the next couple of decades seems like a business to get into, scrap merchants anyone??

[dsr]

why,
if you want to go this route, charger at home, most hotels and decent sized companies are installing charge point plus they are growing, I'm sure very soon, like 2021 you can buy a car and plan your normal daily commutes/routes in an EV. Only issue left is, those that want to tow, those wanting to plan a holiday on the continent, even then I don't really see a big issue for the vast majority of the population beyond those who need to buy cheap cars due to finances. Guess what, expect older ICE cars to drop in price as the change over moves along, people can still buy cheap ICE cars for the next 25 years.

Decommissioning & recycling cars/vehicles in the next couple of decades seems like a business to get into, scrap merchants anyone??

At present 90% of people (Daily Telegraph article) who own electric cars, also own petrol or diesel cars. This is because electric cars are not yet as flexible or as well provided for as internal combustion engine cars. They probably will be by 2030, but they aren't now and they won't be in 2021.

As for price, in 31 years' driving I have spent about £22k on buying cars - five in all. About £750 depreciation per year. It could be a long while before electric cars make a big enough saving on fuel to cover the depreciation disadvantage. Are there any decent second hand electric cars on sale for £5k or so?

[Bullabill]

Weather and seasonality can impact range - usually by about 10% but the main contributor to range deterioration is the speed you travel at and the roads you use.

Average annual mileage in 2019 is 7400. This is 142 miles per week.

ICE Diesel =

If you average 50 mpg - which is a reasonable mid-range diesel with a 60 litre tank = means that you will get 1 litre to 0.29gallons. Therefore 60 litres means you get 13.2 gallons, or 660 miles per 50 gallons.

60 litres at 117p a litre = £70.20. to cover 660 miles.

This equates to 10.6p per mile.


Electric

You can charge as standard a 5p per kW/h on Octopus Go.

To cover 660 miles with a 4.5 miles per kW/h average range.

660 Miles/4.5 = 146 kW/h

146kW/h * £0.05 = £7.30.

So £7.30 ve £70.20 for the same distance.

In winter your miles per kWh can halve potentially - that is still £14 v £70 assuming the diesel mpg remains the same - which it wont.

A large part of the petrol/diesel cost is tax. Do you think the Government is likely to forego that income for much longer? Stand by for a 'distance travelled' tax which will make a dent in electric vehicle running cost.

[clarethomer]

A large part of the petrol/diesel cost is tax. Do you think the Government is likely to forego that income for much longer? Stand by for a 'distance travelled' tax which will make a dent in electric vehicle running cost.

Do I expect to see increases in taxation as an EV driver - yes definitely.

However, I will enjoy paying less money until they do.

And... when I do, I think the cost of EVs will be on parity with ICE vehicles both new and 2nd hand.

[clarethomer]

Life Story

So I live in Woking, I have a garage in a block, no drive. Street parking. What's my options, I regularly drive to west London, around 15k a year. Like the option to drive to Burnley and back in one day, but would usually go on a trip with the London Clarets.

PS, in the winter I like the car hot inside, the Wife does not

In the Summer the said Wife likes the air con on

So - for people unable to charge at home, you will typically find EV owners in this space do one of a few things

- Charge whilst at work.
- Use the public charging network

There are a number of chargers in Woking for you to use

Screenshot 2020-11-21 at 06.32.23.png (264.79 KiB) Viewed 1538 times

Good news is that you can still drive into London and avoid the charge for driving in there - costs £10 to register your car I think. Woking to W London is approximately a 60-mile round trip - There are only a few EVs that may struggle to do that but that would be easily achievable and there will be plenty of options to charge at your destination I am sure.

The other good news is that you can heat and cool your car like any other car. In fact I like the feature on mine that I can defrost and warm the car up before I get in it from an app on my phone.

[Lowbankclaret]

This issue needs dealing with, we cannot claim to be being better humans saving the planet with stuff like this going on.

Children paying the price for eco-car smuggery

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... obalt.html

[clarethomer]

This issue needs dealing with, we cannot claim to be being better humans saving the planet with stuff like this going on.

Children paying the price for eco-car smuggery

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... obalt.html

It's a really good point in that we should be doing something about this. If you want to be truly smug....

- Have a mobile phone/Electronic devices with lithium batteries? Better get rid.
- Do you drive a car with an ICE in it? Maybe you may want to get rid too as the cobalt being mined for EVs is also being used to remove sulphur moieties from natural gas and refined petroleum products

The great news is that if we can remove cobalt from the process for EVs then this will help with the cost of them coming down and also with the issues you have rightly raised.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/2145 ... el-ev-cost

This looks promising to me and that we are moving in the right direction.

[IanMcL]

I go Burnley (in the real world) twice a month. Weekends away at other times and Scottish Highlands for a holiday.

In a year. 16000 miles.
I pay £7.85 per month for Polar Plus. 12 x £7.85 = £94.20
Tax zero
Maintenance zero
Tyres as needed.

Insurance just being renewed. £524 current quote.

Full stop.

[KateR]

At present 90% of people (Daily Telegraph article) who own electric cars, also own petrol or diesel cars. This is because electric cars are not yet as flexible or as well provided for as internal combustion engine cars. They probably will be by 2030, but they aren't now and they won't be in 2021.

As for price, in 31 years' driving I have spent about £22k on buying cars - five in all. About £750 depreciation per year. It could be a long while before electric cars make a big enough saving on fuel to cover the depreciation disadvantage. Are there any decent second hand electric cars on sale for £5k or so?

agree in some ways, you prove my point nicely regarding cheap ICE cars, they are going to be around and available probably for another three decades for those who want them. Yet the move in buying EV's new are starting to eat into the new ICE market and will be more each year, plus each year the infrastructure will improve, easy to look back ten years and see what was available and what the discussions were, today different, 2030 as you say different again.

This is the same as renewable power mix, the landscape is continually growing, the change is inevitable however globally it is different by region, tariffs, penalties and carbon credits are also shaping the change. However we know it is not sustainable for the UK as an example to promote the EV's with credits and to run down the ICE industry which brings in a huge amount of tax revenue on vehicles and fuel alike, there will be a tipping point somewhere. They need to promote the "cleaner" image and get people to change from a well know and proven "dirty" industry to the clean one, it's working and it will not stop now, it's just down to individuals to decide when they make the move, I don't see the smug part of it personally, yet we know there is a certain snobbery around cars, hence why they are seen a status symbols by many.

[IanMcL]

Funny thing, since I invested in my Tesla. At superchargers, folk talk to each other!

No one ever spoke to me while I was injecting diesel.

[KateR]

Funny thing, since I invested in my Tesla. At superchargers, folk talk to each other!

No one ever spoke to me while I was injecting diesel.

Is that because you have to stand around longer and not in the same rush? Genuine question because I have no idea how long it takes using the supercharger!

[IanMcL]

Good question Kate.
I think it is the novelty. The different models and experiences. People asking questions, as they are still learning.

For example, I was chatting to a chap and his wife and he asked me what I loved about mine. I said the autopilot and the adaptive cruise. He said..."I have never used either".

When I explained why they were good things, he said he would try, for the rest of his journey!

There is so many little things. It is like a learning exchange.

Yes I suppose it is because you are there for a time, however, you can do just a few minutes, with a near empty battery set and add a hundred miles..

You can also play games, if you want. I have played a few games of chess. There are some computer games but I don't use them.

[Rileybobs]

Funny thing, since I invested in my Tesla. At superchargers, folk talk to each other!

No one ever spoke to me while I was injecting diesel.

I bet it’s all car talk - there’s not a lot of negatives to owning an electric car but strangers talking to me about their car would definitely be one.

[No Ney Never]

At present 90% of people (Daily Telegraph article) who own electric cars, also own petrol or diesel cars. This is because electric cars are not yet as flexible or as well provided for as internal combustion engine cars. They probably will be by 2030, but they aren't now and they won't be in 2021.

As for price, in 31 years' driving I have spent about £22k on buying cars - five in all. About £750 depreciation per year. It could be a long while before electric cars make a big enough saving on fuel to cover the depreciation disadvantage. Are there any decent second hand electric cars on sale for £5k or so?

People in future will be priced out of using ICEV's.
My prediction is that it'll be unlikely that the cost of purchasing a second hand ice vehicle will be a factor, it's the environmental tax that will be levied on such vehicles that would make the transition to EV more economical.
As the take up of EV's continues, so will the flow to the 2nd hand market.

Another change will be breakdowns, it won't be spanners and screwdrivers on board the rescue truck, it'll be a laptop and a battery booster. Apart from a flat tyre, everything else will be identified and fixed by plugging in a laptop. Unless you've run out of charge, it'll simply require a quick software update and you'll be good to go!

[IanMcL]

I bet it’s all car talk - there’s not a lot of negatives to owning an electric car but strangers talking to me about their car would definitely be one.

Not when it is joint learning.